October 30, 2006

A First-Hand Experience with an Islamic Community in the U.S.

When will U.S. Muslims repudiate those who blow up trains, planes and buildings in the name of Islam?

What does the legal and judicial system of Sharia say about Islam?

These and other significant subjects are addressed in an excellent discussion that is going on in the comment thread here for a post titled, Unassimilated Islam is a Cancer on the West. Commenter Al started things off in this post:

Look, I agree with what you guys are saying here for the most part, but I just want to say that we can't let ourselves view all Muslims negatively. We all know that it is only a few Muslims who are "out to get us and our way of life". And this is a very real thing. But all cultures have their "freaks", and we can't let them alter how we view the rest of the people in an entire culture. Hitler was a Christian, right?

I just wanted to throw that out there.

Al's raising a very important issue, and one which I think most Westerners are thinking about. Yes, there are radical Islamists who are killing in the name of Islam all over the world. But the majority of Islamists aren't directly involved in the actual attacks. So what exactly are we to make of them? Al followed up with this:

...I was mostly directing that towards Vik, because I just get this feeling that he to expands his negative views to reach all Muslims as a group.

Vik, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's just a little frustrating when you seem to not accept Muslims because you apply our, and your, standards to what they do, and when you apply your idea of some of them to all of them. They are very different people, with a very different culture, but let's see if we can apply that "Judeo-Christian tradition of wanting to love each other" to everyone, and not just those who are familiar to us.

I do agree with many of your points here-- you're a smart guy and the things you say are valid. But I'd like to add one word to the title of this page; Unassimilated Islam is SOMETIMES a cancer on the west.

I responded:

Hi Al,

Thanks for the good words.

Unassimilated Islam is SOMETIMES a cancer on the west.

No, honestly, I think you've got it wrong. Historically people have come to America from all sorts of different cultures and assimilated and become successful. We must insist that Muslims who have come here do the same.

Muslims have used the policy of non-assimilation in other nations to grow a culture within the host nation that is hostile to that nation, ultimately destroying the culture of the host nation. It's a very successful strategy and is directly analogous to cancer. Just look at France, Italy, or England today. You know what language they used to speak in Egypt? (This is a bit of a trick question, but the answer is illuminating.)

Have you looked at the Koran? A tremendous amount of it is unequivocally about killing and subjugating those of other religions. Not a line or two, as in the Bible, but line after line after line, passage after passage. And the life of Mohammed was one of killing and warfare.

Only Islam makes it an article of faith that those of other religions are offensive simply by believing in their religion. Islam says that Christianity is offensive because it says Christ is the son of God, and says that Judaism is offensive because it does not recognize that Christ is a prophet.

If you raise little children to believe in this stuff you often get adults who try to carry it out in their lives. It is extremely dangerous.

...I was mostly directing that towards Vik, because I just get this feeling that he to expands his negative views to reach all Muslims as a group.

Well, that's not exactly right. I welcome the Muslims who are here to repudiate terrorists, to assimilate, and to become successful, like everybody else.

Per Wafa Sultan:

...You would be surprised if you knew how many people in Syria believe what I believe. Using fake names, and behind the scenes, they are supporting me. Because you are risking your life and the life of your family. Everyone is looking to the free world to get them out of their prison.

When Muslims say, there are 1.3 billion of them, it makes it sound like they are the whole world. But the rest of the world is 5 billion. Muslims are a minority and they have to act like it. Those Muslims have no choice of religion, they are forced to be Muslim. Give those 1.3 billion Muslims freedom of religion, and then see how many Muslims there are in the world!

It would be easy for Muslims in the U.S. to show that they should not be lumped in with terrorists who kill in the name of Islam. All they have to do is march, make speeches, and have rallies proclaiming loudly that anyone who blows up a restaurant, bus, plane, etc., in the name of Islam, is lost to Islam and is no longer a good Muslim. Easy. But, as we all know, this is something Muslims do not yet do. They explicitly do not yet separate themselves from those who do those things. It's up to them to separate themselves from those who do such things, and so far, they have not yet done so.

The result is that it is almost impossible not to believe that they do not tacitly support such things.

They can step forward any time and separate themselves from those who want to destroy the West. It's long been time for them to do so. What's stopping them?

Please check out my post on Wafa Sultan, and then let me know your thoughts.

Al posted an excellent and thoughtful reply, which I will quote here in full:

I totally agree with what Sultan is saying, and it's pretty awesome that shes speaking like that for Arab news channels.

I do think that I personally would speak against Muslim acts of terrorism and violence if I was a Muslim who did not stand for it, just as you said they should do. But you and I aren't Muslims.

I truly believe that, as Americans, it is easy for us to judge the rest of the world and its people. And this is likely true for many people in other countries. But if we pride ourselves so strongly on being educated, thoughtful, advanced, and whatever else we would say, I don't understand why we can't also be understanding of the fact that most people in the world are radically different from us, and have been brought up and lived with raically different values, rules, culture, etc.

I think it is very possible that Muslims take their culture and religion much more seriously than most Christians and Jews do. And even if they aren't more dedicated to it, I still think that there is something that keeps them from speaking out against other Muslims.

It could be that they are taught that all Muslims are good and that they should never criticize each other, and it could be that they are afraid to go against any Muslim acts or thoughts. Or they could be unsure of whether or not violent and hateful acts carried out by other Muslims are truly what their religion asks for. It could also be some cultural issue that I could never learn of or understand. Whatever it is, they aren't speaking out against Muslim violence and acts of terror that are "in the name of Islam".

My point is that it is too easy to judge Muslims on this issue, and it is too easy to state what they SHOULD be doing about it without stepping into their shoes. This might sound stupid and naive to you. But all I can say is that they are very different people from us, and have all grown up with Islam as a large part of who they are.

It could be that they dont criticize their own religion and they especially don't express thoughts against it. They may feel that speaking out against people carrying out violence in the name of their religion is like denouncing Islam. And it is not acceptable in their culture to do so.

These are just some ideas. We just cant comprehend some of their thoughts about certain issues or why they differ from ours simply because we are not them.

I agree with you in saying that you feel Muslims should speak out against other Muslims' violent acts, but your ideas shouldnt be used to fuel an even larger nonacceptance of Muslims than what is already present in America.

I think it would be more useful for us to understand why it is happening (or not happening, that is) than it is to keep talking about our assumptions about Muslims based on our American standards.

Commenter A.M. Whittaker then provided important insights based on her first-hand experience with a Muslim community in the U.S.:

"I grew up with Muslims and there didn’t seem to be a problem. I had no prejudice towards Muslims or Arabs. They were my friends and classmates in the same public schools in New York and their parents were shopkeepers, business owners, doctors, cpa’s, educators and diplomats. ...But the recent wave of immigrants seems to be quite different - far more fundamental, radical, and unaccepting of the core values of the United States."

Dear Al,

The spirit of charity is evident in your posts; that is a hallmark of the Judeo/Christian/Eastern ethic.

No other group, save the Communists with their Manifesto, wished to change nations and societies to reflect their values. All Christians, Jews, and adherents to Eastern philosophies actually thrive in our country.

With the many roommates I have hosted, only the Muslim was boasting to me about what the Qu'ran teaches, the wisdom of Sharia Law, and how Muslims are working to subjugate all the world to Islam. (Note to Christians: When Jesus comes back, he will be a Muslim!) She said the beauty of Islam is that it goes beyond national boundaries; Islam is a nation and political sovereignty is non-sensical to them. Islam is a nation that needs to spread around the world, breaking down political, judicial, and social boundaries in favor of their own.

I grew up with Muslims and there didn't seem to be a problem. I had no prejudice towards Muslims or Arabs. They were my friends and classmates in the same public schools in New York and their parents were shopkeepers, business owners, doctors, cpa's, educators and diplomats. They were from Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Indonesia, and Afghanistan.

My friends attended Islamic instruction after school in the same way the Jews received training in Hebrew and the Catholics learnt their catechism. I imagine my Chinese, Vietnamese, and Japanese friends also had their lessons in religion and culture. (There weren't many Protestants in our neighborhood!)

But the recent wave of immigrants seems to be quite different - far more fundamental, radical, and unaccepting of the core values of the United States. They don't seem to want to get involved with any community except the Muslim one and they are critical of the United States' culture and values.

We have gone to extremes to accomodate people of all faiths and backgrounds. We have laws in place to guarantee equal opportunity and redress of grievances so there is no excuse not to take one's place in the American community.

Why did they come here if they are opposed to what our country stands for? You need to ask that; I do whenever I enter my building.

People and governments at first did not take Communism seriously, and look how it devastated the world in the past century!

The Qu'ran is just as much a blueprint for world domination as the Communist Manifesto.

It is time to take radical Islam seriously; I take them at their 'word'.

So should you.

I noted:

Al and A.M., I think we're having an excellent exchange here.

Al, in your post #48, you presented a number of possible explanations for why Muslims in the U.S. don't oppose Muslims who are blowing up buses, trains, planes, restaurants, etc. So we agree that most Muslims in the U.S. are not yet seen opposing such things.

I agree with you that it's important to understand as much as possible why most Muslims are tacitly supporting the people who want to kill us; at the same time, we must take action to keep radical Islamists from killing Westerners in the name of Islam. Muslims in the U.S. must be required to assimilate, and ultimately to actively oppose those who kill in the name of their religion.

We just cant comprehend some of their thoughts about certain issues or why they differ from ours simply because we are not them.

Comprehending them is a plus, but it is not required. What is required is to take all actions to keep Islamists from killing Westerners.

And finally (so far), A.M. provided additional excellent observations:

Comprehending them is a plus.

Absolutely. I do comprehend them and have rejected their beliefs and laws.

I judge a people/country by their laws and judicial system.

Sharia Law is unacceptable to the Western world; it is wholly astounding that Sharia justice is motivated by the basest of human emotions and actions while Western justice is motivated by the highest ideals and models.

Sharia Law is followed by most Muslims around the world despite other laws that are in place in the respective countries where they live. Sharia binds them as a nation without walls or boundaries. It covers all aspects of a Muslim's day and life from dawn to dusk. It is a vastly complicated and draconian system which includes even the most mundane activities.

Sharia is deeply ingrained in each Muslim and part of their overall spiritual makeup; it cannot be easily separated. It supersedes national laws. The Qu'ran is more valid to most Muslims in the US than the Constitution.

Please read the section called, #7 Sharia, democracy and human rights concerning compatibility with democracy and human rights.

This is something that I've come to comprehend: Islam is not compatible with the West. It's as simple as that. It is dangerous to make exceptions, distinctions, accommodations, justifications, or rationalizations.

All U.S. citizens, or those who wish to be citizens, need to adhere to and be subject to US laws and judicial system. How is this possible when most of Sharia contradicts US law?

And it just may be that many moderate or non-observant Muslims are afraid or unwilling to stand up against the Islamists because of this internal struggle between Sharia and secular law.