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Last night the United American Committee, and the College Republicans of University of California Irvine, held a panel discussion regarding the Danish Cartoons, including an unveiling of the cartoons themselves.
My friend Laura Wallick and I went in order to support free speech in America, and to support our friend, UAC founder Jesse Petrilla.
It turned out the event was so packed (capacity of the UC Irvine auditorium was 450) that we couldn't get in, which left us free to document the very interesting behavior of the crowd of Islamists protesting the event outside. One police officer we spoke to estimated the Islamist protesters as numbering about 1,000.
This image is merged from two smaller photos.
They had evidently decided that their PR approach was to accuse the College Republicans of "hate speech."
A very clever ploy. But how dare they, when all over the world, Islamists are cutting off people's heads, killing women and children, taking people hostage and murdering them, threatening genocide against Jews and carrying out genocide against Muslims in Darfur, and regularly broadcasting hate speech on TV in various Arabic countries? These protesters could easily have condemned those actions; then their pretense that they were in favor of peace, and against hate speech, might mean something.
Not one of the Islamist speakers I heard, said a single word against any of the actions I have just itemized. What was particularly shocking was that not one speaker I heard condemned the burning of embassies or the killing of people which took place during the cartoon riots.
On the contrary -- at least one speaker supported those riots as making her point. Bear in mind that the speaker was a college-age girl, who sounded very nice, until one listened to what she was saying. She said (from my handwritten notes):
They've seen what happened all over the world. What would make a group even show these cartoons except to stir up hate?
This speaker did not condemn the violence, the embassy-burnings, the deaths, which appeared to be intended to threaten the free world with violence unless we abandoned our free speech. Instead, she considered the cartoon riots a useful thing that should persuade the free world to abandon free speech; her view was that free speech should be surrendered in favor of speech deemed acceptable by Islam.
Look at those signs. "Islam -- The Religion of Peace" -- pretending ignorance of the worldwide jihadist murders. And right next to that a sign saying, "College Republicans The New KKK" -- comparing College Republicans to actual terrorists, the KKK. Another sign reads, "Unveiling Discrimination" -- when it is part of Sharia law that all non-Muslims must pay a special tax, have reduced legal rights, and be second-class citizens, or be killed, or convert to Islam. Who are they kidding with these hypocritical signs?
Or the fourth sign pictured above -- "Free Speech [does not equal] Hate Speech" -- when hate speech is broadcast daily in Islamic nations. And note that the sign opposes free speech of which Islam disapproves and defines as "Hate Speech" -- in this case, even the cartoons. In other words, you can say anything you want, as long as Islamists approve of it.
Make no mistake, this protest is against free speech, and against the U.S. Constitution which guarantees it.
Want to know what some of the other speakers said? Again, bear in mind that the speakers are for the most part college students attending U.C. Irvine.
They frame it as freedom of speech, but we have evolved above freedom of speech, beyond hate speech.
In other words, speech unacceptable to Muslims, say these protesters, is not to be permitted in America.
This is the same anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism that they're propagating in there, that has given rise to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, and the anti-immigrant racism that is spreading all across the U.S.
Of course, it isn't racism, because it has nothing to do with genetics. The event they protested was about defending our rights to free speech as guaranteed by our Constitution.
An event in support of free speech, these Islamists attack as "racism." It's as violent as they can get short of physical violence. The hate speech is theirs. These protesters want to see happen here, what the Islamists have done so successfully in England and France.
Laura and I walked to a Chinese restaurant and had dinner. When we came back, this is what we saw:
Given what appears to be the tacit approval by their speakers of Islamist violence in the cartoon riots, I don't think they were praying for world peace, or for peace, love and understanding.
#1
#2He's thinking: "Who farted?"
#3Equilivent:
Someone smoking canibis to protest legalising it in the UK.
They should all pratice what they preech and stop using freedom of speech to protest against freedom of speech. If they dont like it, they should "GET THE HELL OUT".
#4i was there and it was a really well done event. for the most part the speakers kept on point and shared good info. i wish there were more manners from people on both sides of the topic. the muslims and their opponents inside the room that protested were foolish and rude.
i didn't like the glares and stares, and most of all racial slurs uttered by those protesting on the other side of the gate.
it goes with the territory though.
big kudos to the UC - Irvine CR's too.
very impressive Ms. Lucero.
#5Thank you so so much for writing this! You are a hero
You say the truth.
Friday, this UCLA club is planning to do the same event:
http://ucla.clublogic.org/home/
and so are these organizations in the future:
http://www.uscobjectivistclub.com/
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer
#6Eric,
Thanks very much for the compliment, and the links. I really appreciate it.
#7Congratulations for exemplifying ignorance and extreme bias. You claim that the program set up by the Student Republicans was a form of free speech, then why must the free speech expressed by the Muslim Students be considered differently. In regards to your skewed interpretation of what the female speaker meant when she said "They've seen what happened all over the world. What would make a group even show these cartoons except to stir up hate?" have you possibly considered that she meant that the cartoons have stirred violence worldwide and riots, although it is not to be condonned for, however it shows an interesting point. If the Student Republicans intended to bring this event to the UCI campus, they would have not advertised the event as they would have. Now I'm sure that you probably have no idea what I am referring to because unlike me you are not a student at UC Irvine. But Im sure that is altogether irrelevent to you because you are a "hero" according to that UCLA student.
#8Both groups are free to say and discuss anything as long as they don't threaten anyone. The difference between the two forms of speech is that one is correct (based on facts, not ignorance) and the other is false (based on blind faith). It is morally appropriate to favor the truth and the good, and to condemn the false and the evil.
The people protesting were against free speech, yet used free speech.
All groups should be able to advertise anything as long as it doesn't threaten other people.
I am not a UCLA student, I am going to UCI next year so that I can stage as many events as I possibly can like the one described so I can be a hero like Vik Rubenfeld.
#9You claim that the program set up by the Student Republicans was a form of free speech, then why must the free speech expressed by the Muslim Students be considered differently.
You are making the classic mistake of saying that because I disagree with them I am opposing the right to free speech. By this logic no one could ever disagree with anyone. By your logic, you would have to say that you yourself are opposing my right to free speech, to say what I think of the arguments used by the Islamists.
...have you possibly considered that she meant that the cartoons have stirred violence worldwide and riots, although it is not to be condonned for...
She didn't say one word opposing the violence committed by Islamists. You may wish she'd said that - but she didn't.
#10Eric, thanks so much for these words. I really appreciate it.
The people protesting were against free speech, yet used free speech.
A fantastic point. Your entire post is great and is a powerful addition to this thread.
#11"You are making the classic mistake of saying that because I disagree with them I am opposing the right to free speech. By this logic no one could ever disagree with anyone. By your logic, you would have to say that you yourself are opposing my right to free speech, to say what I think of the arguments used by the Islamists."
That argument is used way too often. It is more of a desperate plee - looking for something which most people support and attempt to twist your words and use them against you.
Nope, doesn't work here!
#12Steven, you have stated that my argument twists words and "doesn't work here", but you have not yet said why you think that. Please support your statement.
Statements that an argument "doesn't work", with no supporting facts, examples, logic or evidence, are an example of what's called on the Internet a "troll". Please bear in mind that it is the stated policy of this forum that comments which are trolls may be deleted.
#13you guy don't know what the hell your talking about these stupid islams are retards
#14The islams need to pull their heads out of their asses and get a life in their own country.!! !!!!
#15In attempts to portray the Iraqis as anti-American and to terrorize the Jews, the Zionists planted bombs in the U.S. Information Service library and in synagogues. Soon leaflets began to appear urging Jews to flee to Israel. . . . Although the Iraqi police later provided our embassy with evidence to show that the synagogue and library bombings, as well as the anti-Jewish and anti-American leaflet campaigns, had been the work of an underground Zionist organization, most of the world believed reports that Arab terrorism had motivated the flight of the Iraqi Jews whom the Zionists had "rescued" really just in order to increase Israel's Jewish population.
Wilbur Crane Eveland, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA),
#16you seem to have a little warped idea of history which you must have learned it in some backward village in northern punjab...I have been reading your posts from various places and you are qualified to speak about no subject so far as I can see.
You are totally UNQUALIFIED to speak a word about the Jews in Iraq......there are more than enough photos and evidence of how the Jews have been treated there.......you are an idiot to think everything is a Jewish or Zionist conspiracy...You give them the status of G-d Himself when you attribute to them so much power. Get real.
#17I wanted to ask if you were one of the ones demonstrating at the University against Brigitte Gabriel? I see where you emailed the auhtorities protesting her free speech rights at the University of Memphis?
#18You live in Memphis, and visit the mosques there; perhaps you have met with Maher and Haitham Ghawji, or Rafat Jamal Ghawjii, or Enaam Arnaout? These would be prominent muslims from Memphis that you might know.
Or, maybe you are part of the muslim brotherhood. You did mention it. You appear on eJobs in Romanian language (or Bulgarian?)...perhaps you are Bosnian? I am planning to uncover your public domain background, and the more I discover about you, the more convinced I am that you are a danger to us. The list of websites you frequent is appalling, as well as your declared hatred of Jews.
I wanted to ask if you were one of the ones demonstrating at the University against Brigitte Gabriel? I see where you emailed the authorities protesting her free speech rights at the University of Memphis.
In fact, I am amazed at the wide variety of forums you enter...the sindh/punjab sites, the foreign language sites, the iraqi sites, the American islamic-matters discussion sites...who really are you, a self-styled jihaddi poster child?
HOW DO YOU HAVE TIME TO RUN A JEWELRY STORE? Being in business at 47 requires your full time attention. I see that you travel often as well. Perhaps you carry money back and forth overseas ostensibly for jewelry purchases?
I have had small shops and businesses, and I know it requires more than 60 hours a week....certainly you have enough financial backing at 47 years old, to have LOTS OF TIME on your hands.
#19I think it's time that every college in America require reading of the Koran, just to let our children know exactly what is in store for them unless they convert. The Koran, like "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler, doesn't mince words. In fact, some of the more popular words include "boiling in oil", "cutting off hands and feet on opposite sides of the body", and the like. The "religion of peace" will thus be unmasked by the prophet's own diatribes.
#20Well, I'm gonna write this cause I'm troubling persecuting in my all life and even inside a program funded by american (mostly non muslim) aid at the mean time
Islam is a killing cancer, as non muslim people in the west give muslims the total freedom to live and speak about the good false view of islam to trick people to convert to islam without knowing what they are doing as most of them are far from their original and new religions, non muslims in muslim countries are forced to live in muslim rules, here bad talking about them in the streets and using mics.
for any one who converts from islam they say he/she must be killed as it’s one rule of islams rules
islamic rules and instructions through quran or whatever are full of hatred and instructions to kill non muslims with or without reasons, deal with them like animals and slaves as well as trying to convert them using force if it’s available, and when it’s not available for them till now in the west they are trying to convert them using other ways full of tricks and lies
regarding if islam is wrong or right, i think no god can disagree with himself in more than half of his book (quran) that’s what is called nasekh and mansoukh, this is one of the many many issues that muslims are trying to hide and fool others before they fool them selves
Islam since it’s start aims control people that’s the approach which Mohammed started and appears cross history
Islam is all the long againest all what is good in any way including arts, technology etc.. though they use them in fooling people specially media means
GOD save the world from the Islamic death
#21Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being "pushed to an extreme;" not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case...John Stuart Mill
#22#### U ALL THAT ARE AGAINST ISLAM!! ####### HATERS!
PEACE!
#23#22, your violent, curse-filled language indicates that your statement, "PEACE!", is not a call for tolerance, but a demand for submission. Your post appears to exemplify much of what is said about radical Islam.
#24I think no god can disagree with himself in more than half of his book (quran) that’s what is called nasekh and mansoukh, this is one of the many many issues that muslims are trying to hide.
#25With the Current Dead lock on what should be allowed in terms of freedom of speech ..
then i ask .. why is the denial of holucaust such a big issue if one denies it by merely saying it.. this should not be an issue with the US or UN .. since they support freedom of speech
and what about a reseach on the holocust .. saying that it did not happen or the Jews who died were less then 6million .. may be 1 million ..
then that too is just my opinion and i have the right to express it
what i donot understand is...
why is... Denial of holocuast a crime ... and why publishing of the Prophet's Pictures freedom of Speech??
but are expressions of ones thoughts and if one should be allowed so should be the other.. ..
or better yet... there must be some restrictions on this open freedom with no reins that allows one to hurt the other ...
there are so many other things
1.denail of holocuast
2. Hitler's book (Mein Kampf)
4.On the Origins and Perpetual Use of the Legislative Powers of the Apostolic Kings of Hungary in Matters Ecclesiastical( banned in the vatican)
5.Perfidy
6.Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong
8.Suicide mode d'emploi
and so on.... should all of them not fall under the terms
"Freedom of Speech"
so why this partiality???/ when the key word here is Freedom ..
what most of us donot understand is .. that even thogh speech is free .. we should not excersize it as to cause hatred against certain people or to incite anger or to cause problems in the society ... so thus there must be certain laws that govern it
similar to Driving every man is free to drive but is not allowed to hit a person with the car nor destroy someones property with it...
every person has the right to keep a knife at his/her home.. but is not allowed to use it to kill someone weather with in his/her home or outside
for every freedom there must be some restraints or constraints
#26Amen to that.
#27THEY SHOULD GO BACK TO THERE OWN COUNTRY SAY THERE LITTLE PRAYERS AND GET THE HELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#28Wow, Vik, I thought you said Jews and Christians were a religion of peace and love that resorted to prayer for their enemies and not contempt. Obiviously, you are a total hypocrite as everyone on this page says "get the hell," "get their heads out of their asses," "stupid retard Islams" (which by the way is a totally unintelligent comment...'Islams'? Seriously? Your whole website makes you look bad and you are losing more people on your side than you think you are winning.
Your people, as seen by your posts and the comments from others like you, go against everything you claim to believe in...peace and understanding.
#29"Sabrina M," you are posting here under two different names, and pretending to be two different people. Your posts, and the post from "Katrina Hill" (which not coincidentally expresses very similar views, and which was posted within 15 minutes of your post), both come from the identical IP address - 71.96.248.23.
#30you people are so offensive, how can you say something about a "way of life" -islam that you don't even know about...i suggest you:
1)go and read the quran
2) sit in a lonely corner, and find out what life is about
3)find out if there is a creator.
4)get psychological therapy.
5)get a life.
6)get a wife.
7)inspect the critisms of democracy...is it really the right way?
8) dont judge a person by the appearance, get to know em.
9)Talk to a practicing muslim.
10) spot the critisms of other religions and ways of thinking
...THEN get back to me
=]
#31Ha ha Sabrina's argument is so weak that she resorts to sock puppets.
I wonder if she is the same Sabrina whom I scared away from Beliefnet with my non-croyant persona by promising to report her assertion that the US deserves to have some cities nuked to her administration at Johns Hopkins, where claimed to be studying at the time.
After I posted that promise she never posted again. It delights me that she might have been terrified to lose her place - her privilege - in attending an American university.
#32Hey Alicerevert - I've read that toilet better known as the Qur'an, and I learned that Islam belongs on the trash heap of history.
Muslims can't the fact that the West is superior to them by almost every measure, despite the fact that their Stone Age culture, with a veneer of monontheism copied from Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Judaism - and sloppily at that - tells them that they should be ruling the world.
Alicerevert ("revert" - what a childish semantic ploy), pig blood be upon the illiterate pederast thug known as Muhammand whom you call your prophet.
It's not suprising that he serves as the role model of the Ummah, considering that most of them are as illiterate as he was - and a good number are also as thuggish. You might have to go to Afghanistan and Iran for those who emulate his pederasty, after bending the rules and allowing for the children to be male.
#33I wonder then why 1.5 Million white american Christians have converted to Islam after 9/11 in USA (reported by CNN)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUbzJMQwoN0
and Citi Bank USA has launched a study a group to investigate Islamic Banking on the Note that Islamic Banking is much more Secure and Profitable
and Japan along with many western COuntries are investing Heavily in ISLAMIC Bonds ..
wonder if you all keep track of that ..
as for the others.. i wanted you to get all out of your system .. and throw what you can ..
now we love jesus .. to Christians many of the Miricales asociated to JEsus in the QUran might seem like something he did not do .. but there is no proof against it right..?? .. but no where in the QUran is Jesus PBUH defamed or cursed.. the only diffrences are as follows
1. JEsus was a PRophet and not the Begotten Son of God .. but a Spiritual Son of God like many mentioned in the Bible
as Jesus says .. My Father is in me and I in thee and we all are one
and as it is said .. those who toil in the way of the Lord shall be called the Children of God..
(im not sure if its those who suffer or those who toil or those who call to the way of God do forgive my mistake)
2. Jesus was not Crucified but it was made to seem like the Rabias and the Pharisees had him Crucified and Jesus was Raised up Alive to his Lord God and the GOd and Creator of the Entire Humanity.
my question still stands.. what do you my sametic Jewish Brother say of the one of the MOst powerfull Prophets of God the one and Alone .. what do you say of him .. would you die for him ... do you belive in him .. to you belive in the fact that he was the one who God sent as the King of Isreal and the Messiah .. we Muslims belive that
We belive that He Will return one day (The second COmming) and will Put right all the things and we wait anxiously every single day and pray that God send him soon so that we may wash his feet with our hair and Die for him against those who hate him
What do you JEws my Sametic Brotheren say of the Prophet that Lived Amongst you Jesus the SOn of Mary the Pure
#34anonymous - the numbers CNN cites have been shown to be incorrect:
Most mainstream media reports on the just-released survey from the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life are touting results showing that Americans are less religious, with over 16% saying they aren't members of any religion.
But, while that's important, there's a far more important number in the survey, "U.S. Religious Landscape Survey," that you aren't hearing about: the number of Muslims in America. Since 9/11, Muslims and their propaganda groups have repeatedly touted that their legions include 6-7 million Americans. In the past few years, they've invented a new number: 9 million.
But the Pew survey--and remember, Pew is a liberal outfit--found that only 0.6% are, in fact, Muslims, or 1.8 million out of 300,000,000 residents of America.
#35could be
i just rellayed what i saw on one of the most watched Telivision Stations from USA
George Bernard Shaw:
"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."
(A Collection of writing of some of the eminent scholars, 1935).
------------------------------------------
Lamartine's tribute to the Prophet:
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could claim to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?"
Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"
(Histoire de la Turquie, 1854 Vol. II pp. 276-277).
---------------------------------------
Gandhi:
"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life”.
(Young India, 1922).
#36At this time, the attribution of the quote to Shaw is challenged on Wikipedia:
The below quote was deleted from the page by User:-ramz-, saying "According to a number of pro-islam sites this quotation is allegedly from "The Genuine Islam", however there seems to be no such work, only two quotes from it circulating on these sites."
I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.
On this page the same quote is attributed to Napoleon.
And on this page the same quote is attributed to Hamilton Gibb.
Gandhi made it a policy to try to see good in everyone:
Mahatma Gandhi's letters to Hitler
Dr. Koenraad ELST
Mahatma Gandhi's admirers are not in the habit of confronting embarrassing facts about their favourite saint. His critics, by contrast, gleefully keep on reminding us of a few facts concerning the Mahatma which seem to undermine his aura of wisdom and ethical superiority. One of the decisive proofs of Gandhi's silly lack of realism, cited by both his Leftist and his Hindutva detractors, is his attempted correspondence with Adolf Hitler, undertaken with a view to persuading Germany's dictator of the value of non-violence. I will now take upon myself the ungrateful task of arguing that in this attempt, Gandhi was (1) entirely Gandhian, and (2) essentially right.
Gandhi's first letter to Hitler
Both of Gandhi's letters to Hitler are addressed to "my friend". In the case of anyone else than the Mahatma, this friendliness would be somewhat strange given the advice which Hitler had tendered to the British government concerning the suppression of India's freedom movement. During a meeting with Lord Halifax in 1938, Hitler had pledged his support to the preservation of the British empire and offered his formula for dealing with the Indian National Congress: kill Gandhi, if that isn't enough then kill the other leaders too, if that isn't enough then two hundred more activists, and so on until the Indian people will give up the hope of independence. Gandhi may of course have been unaware of Hitler's advice, but it would also be characteristically Gandhian to remain friendly towards his own would-be killer.
The attribution of the quote you cite to Lamartine appears to be accurate.
#37R. Bosworth-Smith:
"Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope's claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a Right Divine, it was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life.
("Mohammed & Mohammedanism" in 1946)
K. S. Ramakrishna Rao
The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet. There is Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero."
("Muhammad the Prophet of Islam")
Diwan Chand Sharma:
"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him"
[D.C. Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta, 1935, pp. 12]
#38The three authors you reference are not well-known.
#39islam is afraid their lies get exposed to public
i want to share the reality that i lived with the real islam not the false one that they try to convince the west with
if you are muslim, recently converted to muslim some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions which drove a world of 1 billion which dont want to think and search and be honest with them selves
these hypocritic rules is created by mohamed to get people loyality to him in the name of allah and akkbar -which was a an god for some arabs at this time- he started fooling and told his followers how to fool and they must fool and still this story running to the day
a lot of arabs (islam and quran is all about arabic) dosent understand islam so how could non arabs do so they fool them
if you do some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions
most of the truth about islam and islamic lies could be found in arabic do not make them fool you if you dont understand arabic
muslim -real muslims- say that the quran is not accept by allah (GOD) in any other languge than arabic (may be that allah dose not understand english) and the quran is the same since it created -search and you will find it never be correct- and many other lies can not be right
and lies continue
muslims in fact create lies and beleive them
they always speak about islamic miracles, but islam never had a miracle than bringing war and hatred in a religion that get followed by millions that is the real miracle and the only one
any normal to fanatic muslim have a hatred to any non muslim which taught by his or her relegion
anyone knows the real fact about islam and care about his life and others lives and a real god not about this fooling called islam will immediately leave it,
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK!!
mohammed the prophet married many many women -i see he was lust for sex- and married 6 years old kid when he was 50s and mastaurbated with her had sex with her when she became 9!!
that one was from islamic trusted books and hadithes there are so many many more things to say and the real fact have even more
on of the islams aim is to distroy christianity and judism
i do not beleive in any of them yet
but if you put one of them in compare with islam
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
i invite every muslim to begin thinking is that a real distiney
will i find the 70x70 lady waiting for me with muhammed to have sex with me in heaven.
#40LOLZ
Another Guy who knows nothing but has to many things to say .. coz he don want to seem the odd on out when every one is following the band wagon
.. To say Muslims and Islam= Killing.. .is the same as saying Hitler = Jew ...
plain Idocracy
What you forget is.. that you never read the Quran you never Read a Hadith that says what you claim ...
regarding marriage with a young girl ... dude... the Hadith is there.. but you forgot to mention that fact that it was her dad that wanted her to get married to The prophet and the Prophet refused due to her young age since she had not reached puberty and was not old enough to make a decision on her own
and then guess what.. after some years when she HAD reached the age of puberty any one would agree that its the age of concent.. check out.. the listings of age of concent of the world back in the 60's .. for Dalaware USA, you'll have the answer
Grow up People ...
As for murders..
ask your jewish rabbias and historians.. about the spanish inquisition and the chrsitian rule of spain .. and guess what your Rabia claims , standing in USA
"The Muslim Rule of Spain was the Golden age of our Diaspora Since the Chrsitians used to Persicute us"
Islam is not all about Arabic.. Kido .. 80% of the Muslim Population is Non-arab .. get your facts right..
Where the hell do you think Jesus (peace and blessings of God be upon him )was Born .. Manchester???
what language do you think the Gospel was in .. .. English.. or Spanish??
Jesus .. a Jew .. speaking Hebrew and Aramaic.. .the Gospel cant be in English now can it..
then there came the "Christians" wrote the Gospel in Greek and any one possessing a new testiment in Hebrew was to be killed..
wow.. i thought the general rule was that one language cannot be transfered completely into another... so what was lost??? the soul., the true meaning.?? or.. was it that the Interpritations of the Bible Exists .. but the Bible is no more ..
Oh!. another note.. on the side.. a question for you how old was mary the Pure and Pious the Virgin the mother of Jesus when Jesus (pbuh) was born to her.
i doubt that many of you know ..
people... stop watching the TV so much... and start reading some real history .. you guys are still stuck in the middle ages... thinking.. "We Europeans/Americans are Civalized and everyone else is savage and a killer"...
wonder what happened in Manzanar... or.. May Ley , or Bin ten , what happened in Hadeetha or Abu Ghuraib ..
if you Codone that.. then id say .. you condone the jewish masacare at the hands of the Nazi's who by the way ..was a good christian.. read the books .. and their notes..
Christianity was the core of their state thought... even the Pope did the nazi solute to Hitler.. the pictures are there..you just have to look properly and the Passion of Christ was used to brew hatred agaisnt the Jews...
Wow... you guyz havent Moved on .. since the Crusades have you ...
the same thinking still resides Which reminds me.. what about Salahudin .. even though the Whole Crusade thing was a big holy war for you guyz .. it was just a small strugle to free a fallen Arab City (not muslim city)
Get your Facts right
Damn!...
Step out of your rabbit whole and get rid of your tunnel view that your media has put you in ..
and dont reply me coz your pissed at me.. give me an answer if you have really got one..
Oh! .. wich reminds. me.. I dont see any Jew replying to my question ..
that We muslims Love Jesus and would die for him and are awating his return and belive that Jesus the Son of Marry the Virgin who was a pious woman from the family of David the king of the Jews .. and Jesus is the Christ the Messiah and the KIng of the Jews promiseed by God... and he shall return and fulfill al the Prophicies fortold... of him .. and we muslims would be the first to follow him
what say you jews of Jesus the Christ the son of the Virgin marry the Prophet and Messiah Sent by God to the Jews We say the above..
what say you ???
#41#40, please provide links to document your statements.
#42If i would Provide everylink ....... what good would that be
any link that i provide .. runs the risk of being potrayed as Baised or a one way.....
look for yourself ..... you might run across many things that you might not have known Before
Take Care brothers ..
God bless you and me and Forgive my sins and yours and Guide me and you both to what is Right and What is HIS true will
#43People are even more likely to think you are biased if you can't provide links to support your statements.
Assalamu allaikum.i sow this picters.i have an openion that are the islam is peace religons and good honnest thinks.
#45Hmm, interesting...
Why isit that everyone hates on ISLAM, when they dont even know the meaning of it?
:S
Just randomly feel like they HAVE to mock the religion...
why dudes why?
because you were beaten as a child?<a href="[removed]void(0);" onclick="add_smiley(':shut:')">../../../images/smileys/shuteye.gif lol@the radom hatred 4 NO REASON....
ISLAM = PEACE!! woooooooooooooooo.
you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone:D
stop crying....
#46#45, Do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a public place such as a plane, train, bus or restaurant, is not rewarded for doing so, by being sent to paradise?
#47Let us answer your question from voices from the past:
Great Thinkers on Islam Religion; Posted on: 2008-09-03 19:40:22 [ Printer friendly / Instant flyer ]Islam will kill Europe in its sleep. -- Frank Roman, BOD, EAU
DR M. SABIESKI (PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY) “The militant Muslim is the person cutting the head of the infidel while the moderate Muslim holds the victims feet”. MARCO POLO (WORLD TRAVELER) “The law which their prophet Mohamed has given to muslims is that any harm done to any one who does not accept their law and any appropriation of his goods, is no sin at all.”JOHN QUINCY ADAMS (U.S. PRESIDENT) ”The essence of mohammed’s doctrine was violence and lust: to exalt the brutal over the spiritual part of human nature. PROF BERTRAND RUSSELL (PHILOSOPHER) “Over a billion people believe in Allah without truly knowing what Allah supposedly stands for or what he really demands of them. And the minority that do understand continue to be Moslems because they have redefined their morality and ethics to fit within the teachings of Islam, which are floridly lacking in morality. They therefore redefine what is good and evil in order to fit their lives into what is preached by Islam, instead of examining Islam to see if it fits within the good life. Backwards thinking, imposed by a backward religion”. SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL (BRITISH PRIME MINISTER)"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.”ALEXIS DE TOCQVILLE (FRENCH THINKER/HISTORIAN) “I studied the Kuran a great deal … I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammed.” EARNEST RENAN (FRENCH THINKER) “Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain others in the practice of this religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him.
#48EARNEST RENAN (FRENCH THINKER) “Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain others in the practice of this religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him.”WILL DURANT (U.S. HISTORIAN) “The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.” KOENRAAD ELST (BELGIAN HISTORIAN)“The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention that the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate).” POPE BENEDICT/BYZANTINE EMPEROR PALEOGUS "Show me just what Prophet Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” BRIGITTE GABRIEL (WRITER) “Islamic societies are suffocated by shackles around the human spirit and brain. Islamic theology is driven by machoism, dominance, intolerance, submission and violence to all that disagrees with Islam’s principles of law”: DR. KHUSHWANT SINGH (PROFESSOR) “The most successful lecherous man who used religion for his personal gain is Prophet Mohammed. Islam is a cult with it’s complete irrational belief in Allah created by Muhammed who was a liar, thief, murderer and rapist till his last breath”. Dr. R. BRAHAMCHARI (PHYSICIST) ”Allah is a cruel tyrant, a barbaric killer and a violent despot . Islamic Umma is the biggest criminal gang on earth and Allah is leader and guide of that criminal gang and is trying to establish himself as the God of the world (not of the universe) with the help of the mujahidin through terror and bloodshed”. Dr. BR AMBEDKAR ( THE FATHER OF INDIAN CONSTITUTION) “Islam is a false and dangerous way of living.”
***"Islamics understand that their most powerful secret weapon is the Liberal Mindset, while despising it at the same time." Serge Trifkovic, "The Sword of the Prophet."
****"Tolerance of Intolerence is not Tolerance." Mark Steyn, "America Alone"
*****Joy! Joy, bright spark of divinity, fire - inspired we tread thy sanctuary. Thy magic power re - unites all that custom has divided. All men become brothers under the sway of thy gentle wings." Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony # 9, Opus 125, "Choral," 1824, Symphonic rendering of Fredrick Schillers "Ode to Joy"
#49The greatest joke of this century
- 'Islam is a religion of Peace"
Just humour them. We know the Truth
It needs powerful America to tell them what to do, orelse they'l beat up women and and kill men by their bombs, and obviously kill themselves by suicide bombers. damn!
#50Yeah...no one who ever grew up in a Christian home would ever beat up women or kill people with bombs, or kill others and then commit suicide. Oh wait...they do. Damn!
The Muslims fighting for America deserve better than having their religion ridiculed. Al Qaeda is the enemy, and it poses a threat to millions of Muslims as well.
When Christians acheive perfection..then they will have earned the right to pass judgment on other religions. Judgement is God's domain...can you handle that truth?
#51This debate appears to be following the trend for these, that noone really listens to each other, and present very crude arguments for polarized opinions.
Anyway, first off; on Criticisms of religion, with particular relavance to Christianity, it is important to separate the teachings of the faith with the actions of "believers" past and present.
Anyone who argues that Islam is a threat to world peace because people who are muslims kill people for apparrantly religious reasons come rather unstuck when they look at the actions of followers of whichever belief system they adhere to, be it The Spanish inquisition or Stalin.
It is also important to contextualise any teachings, to understand what they actually say about the faith; corporal punishment and death sentances occur repeatedly in both the Bible and the Qu'ran, but that in itself says nothing of the value of the religion; those things were accepted at that time without moral debate.
People also aren't prepared to present a balanced point of view; I know plenty of mulims, and not one of them gave me the impression they were oppossed to freedom, but equally other, more politically agressive muslims may well see these "moderate moslems" as tools to better spread their faith. Yet noone is prepared to either look depply into what exactly is the true nature of Islam's initial millatary spread and what that means for us now, or quote someone who patently has.
Agressive comments that purely state opinions or insult detract from that sides arguments.
Onto the real topic present; freedom of speech.
The Muslims (who you repeatedly called Islamists, a term I have only ever seen used by the members of the media seeking to bias they're audiences against Islam) who protested the cartoons were acting well within they're rights, according to the first amendment.
Suppose someone were to attempt to publish a major article that said that Jesus was a Gay opium addict, and there were people protesting outside an event discussing whether it should or shouldn't be published. Would you insult these people, tell them that they should stop trying to use their free speech to bring about a total removal of free speech?
I personally believe that free speech should be totally free; Free to say whatever you think, or indeed draw cartoons of whatever you like, but equally free speech to protest the opinions presented. Freedom to say what you like and have what you say opposed.
In my opinion these moslems can say what they like, but equally the cartooner or anyone publishing it should not face federal punishment.
By all means hold your opinions, and attempt to convince others, but you ought not feel outraged if people disagree with you.
#52Above in #51 was Stephan:
"People also aren't prepared to present a balanced point of view; I know plenty of mulims, and not one of them gave me the impression they were oppossed to freedom, but equally other, more politically agressive muslims may well see these "moderate moslems" as tools to better spread their faith. Yet noone is prepared to either look depply into what exactly is the true nature of Islam's initial millatary spread and what that means for us now, or quote someone who patently has."
True, I have seen several very polite Muslims, and even Winston Churchill in that forum in this blog mentioned that "Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities." The same folks who produced the dvd called Obsession, which was about the threat of Radical Islam, and featured principally Muslims addressing the threat posed by this religion, have now released the sequel: The Third Jihad. At the beginning you will see a Muslim named Zurth Jasser, who says he loves his religion, but has devoted his life to battling those who interpret the Quran as telling them to commit evil acts in the name of Allah. What is particularly disturbing is his detailing how dissapointed he was about Muslims in America after 9/11, as he expected them to take to the streets in anger at the Quran being used as telling them to commit the evil acts of that day. He then tells of hosting a summit to protest these acts and Radical Islam in general, and how all the Imams here opposed him, and refused to attend. For those who hope to see Muslims reforming their religion to actually be a peaceful coexistant one, this is a very bad sign. Also disturbing and another bad sign was the hero welcome the people of Libya gave to the Lockerbie bomber. Is there any hope for Islam?
As to Islam's initial military spread, Liberals can say things like the Inquisition and such balances the acts of Islamic aggression, here is one small vignette taken from Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad, page 82. Prompted by the vote of the Swiss to ban Islamic minarets, the Fox News site had a picture of the one named after Mahmud. So I looked this guy up, to see what sort of folks Islamics build monuments to. Here is what I found:
"Mahmud of Ghazni, according th the British historian Sir Henry Elliot, launched some 17 jihad campaigns into India between 1000 and his death in 1030.....At Bhera all the inhabitants, except those who converted to Islam, were put to the sword....These continuous jihad campaigns were accompanied by great destruction and acts of wanton cruelty. Utbi describes the slaughter that transpired during the attacks on Thanesar and Sirsawa:
#53"The cheif of Thanesar was obstinate in his infidelity and denial of Allah, so the sultan marched against him and his valiant warriors for the purpose of planting the standards of Islam and extirpating idolatry... The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously that the stream was discolored, and the people were unable to drink it.....At Sirsawa, the Sultan summoned the most religiously disposed of his followers and ordered them to attack the enemy immediately. Many infidels were consequently slain or taken prisoner in this sudden attack, and the Musalmans paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels....The friends of Allah searched the bodies of the slain for three whole days, in order to obtain booty.
"Mahmud's final well-known expedition in Hindustan, to Somanath in 1025 CE, was similarly brutal, cruel, and destructive: 'Mahmud captured the place without much difficulty and ordered a general slaughter in which more than 50,000 persons were said to have perished.....In 1950 Srivastava wrote: 'To the Indian world to this day Mahmud was a veritable devil incarnate ... He plundered many dozens of flourishing cities; he razed to the ground great temples which were wonderful works of art; he carried thousands of innocent women and children into slavery; he indulged in wanton massacre practically everywhere he went......"
A monster, and TODAY, this is what the the Islamics celebrate. The destruction of the temples mentioned above, same thing the Taliban did in Afghanistan about 10 years ago. Maybe this was just one bad guy and all the others were good in those Islamic conquests? No, they were all monsters, acting in their minds as commanded by Allah. Read the book like I did.
What you have to realize is that none of this is taught in America's liberal public schools and universities in tribute to political correctness. And I doubt the Swiss know anything about who these minarets are named for. We have all heard the hackneyed saying about how those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Politically Correct Liberal America has no idea what the history really is. It is really funny how the mainstream media is trying to coverup ClimateGate, and they do the same with regard to anything true about Islamic history.
#54True, but to assess every muslim on the events they praise based on how may people died seems rather hypocritical.
For Example, when the Israelites were running riot following the Golden calf, Moses called all men who feared God to him, all the levites came together, and they busily slaughtered all their own people to restore order and mete out Justice. When Jerico was sacked, it was commanded that not one man, woman or animal would be left alive in the city, or the Israelites would be Punished. But I would not consider a Jew in peacetime to have at every moment the voice of G-d in his ear commanding my death. Historic actions must be taken in context.
And the other issue to hand is the onset of Politicisation amongst religious leaders. Those Imams can't afford to seem as if they are condoning the rabid assaults on Islam that they were facing from the media. Not the correct decision, but not one saying that they really prefered the "war on terror" to have occurred.
#55we'll see on judgement dayy everyone.
let the time come, and we'll see who will be mocking who.
Life isn't a competition you know...we are all trying to find the truth....
we are laying out the facts...and its up 2 u whether u take them or leave them.
THERE IS A SOLUTION TO ISLAMIC TERROR ATTACKS, SUICIDE BOMBERS, & OTHER SUCH VIOLENCE AND PROTESTS. FEED THE FLESH OF BOMBERS TO PIGS , & SPRAY PIG BLOOD ON PROTESTORS.
#57
Another Guy who knows nothing but has to many things to say .. coz he don want to seem the odd on out when every one is following the band wagon
.. To say Muslims and Islam= Killing.. .is the same as saying Hitler = Jew ...
plain Idocracy
#58funny pictures, what you say is flatly contradicted by the Koran. Want to see some example verses?
#59
21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
#60"Christianity and Islam are the world's dominant religions because they have used every possible tactic, including large-scale violence and intimidation, to get that way. There are no clean hands in this quarrel."
Clay Naff
#61you have become two parties about the hypocrites ...this part of 4.88 sounds like random babble...the taspheer has an explanation for it...you do not.
Vik, you are an expert on sword verses taken out of their context, and a true professional when it comes to avoiding questions you don't have answers too. You have passed judgment on an entire religion for the sins of our enemy...and everytime you do that the enemy wins again.
#62Jamie, as you know, you and I have been discussing these issues extensively on this page. If you wish to continue the discussion, please continue it there, as that thread is the context for the discussion we have been having.
#63I'm waiting for answers to my questions...here, there, wherever.
#64YOU LOT ARE ANNOYING.
JEEZZZZZZZZZZ.......
WHEN YOU DIE...WHEN YOU GET JUDGED ON JUDGEMENT DAY ( TO ALL OF ABOVE) THEN YOU WILL GET AN ANSWER TO ALL UR QUESTIONS....
THANKS...
tbh, we are not dictating to you whether ISLAM is correct or not, that for you to decide....at the end of the day thats what humans are here for, to see what their purpose of life is....
and please CAN YOU STOP GENERALISING on ALL muslims that they are terroists....thats pathetic, and im probably a lot younger thn you, and i know doing that is just wrong... i dont say " OH ALL CHIRISTIANS BIBLE BASH"
HURTS DOESNT IT?
,you sad sad people...so please.
thanks
"Christianity and Islam are the world's dominant religions because they have used every possible tactic, including large-scale violence and intimidation, to get that way. There are no clean hands in this quarrel."
Clay Naff ------ WHO THE HELLS CLAY NAFF, he has no authority, just picked a name out of the blue...NOONE knows him.
THERE IS A SOLUTION TO ISLAMIC TERROR ATTACKS, SUICIDE BOMBERS, & OTHER SUCH VIOLENCE AND PROTESTS. FEED THE FLESH OF BOMBERS TO PIGS , & SPRAY PIG BLOOD ON PROTESTORS.?????????
--- EXCUSE ME?? ARE WE, OR ARE WE NOT HUMAN AT THE END OF THE DAY? JUST SHUT UP AND LET US LIVE....honestly, you are so immatureeeeeeee!!!!!! arghhhhhhhh...
GO AND LOOK UP MALCOM X and see what he said.
#65RandomGirl, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a plain or train or other public place in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?
#66RandomGirl...Clay Naff might not appreciate being told that nobody knows him...I'm sure somebody knows him...I don't, but I randomly came across his quote and whoever he is I think he makes a valid enough point. Historically speaking, people of both religions have done terrible things in God's name, and while many faithful may condemn those acts in retrospect, neither Christianity nor Islam would be as widespread as they are today without military aggression.
That said, your point is well taken....I agree with you that each person must make their own choices in regard to religion. One size simply does not fit all...and I don't think God ever intended for that to be the case.
The questions I want answered are in regards to an ongoing debate with Vik regarding certain issues he has taken up with the Koran...particularly verses which at face value come across promoting acts of terrorism and general aggression towards other religions. These are issues subject to interpretation and translation(be it cultural or linguistic), and Vik loves to take verses out of context to reinforce his distorted view of the world as "us" vs. "them".
Apparently, Vik has abandoned his discussion with me. He has no answers for what I feel are legitimate questions I've asked on other threads on this website. Read them if you like, though I don't necessarily recommend it.
We are, indeed, old and annoying. PLEASE DON'T LET YOURSELF BECOME BITTER AND OLD LIKE US!
#67lol...oops.
i didnt mean it like that...:( sorry...noones old...age is just a number.
But, i know you are looking at everything from like a "broad perspective" but the thing is, you need to look into christianty, Islam etc (all religions) before its too late, and u die...then u have 2 face the consequences...if any.
Clay naff - lets leave him out of this :D lool..im sure hes a nice man, but please ...
I like the way u have understood everyones viewpoints - i respect that.
to be honest, military aggression would be needed, would it not? u cant live in a world without it:( has it ever happend.....no? will it?....i persume no..so yeh, its life...
but we need to look at the bigger picture...not just at "omg they are using guns n weapons...therefore they are bad" noo...
we look at the fundemental things....WHY are they doing it? WHAT is the purpose?...are they 'terroists' how the western media put it?????? or are they 'freedom fighters'????? we know the western media is fully corrupted with junk, with propaganda, with corrupted bits of info.............so what is a terrorist? is there such thing? whats the reasoning for them doing what they do?
i dont get it, to be honest...why do the western media employ non-practicing muslims to go on the news channel and not someone who is actually knowledgeble in tht subect area?? they employ those with less knowledge and understanding - random question.
to be honest, does it really matter TO YOU if they are ( supposed terrorists) are doing anything to civilisation? if u are a non beliving in god, person, why wud u care? ur just gnna die in a hole somewhere n thats it 4 u, no?
#68" RandomGirl, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a plain or train or other public place in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?"
Im younger than you, and i know its "palne" dumbo.
if someone does something....in the name of something, does it mean theyll go to paradise??? are you thick? it depends puely on the intention of that person.....
.....if that was the case (tht everyone who blows emself up in the name of islam are gnna go paradise), dont u think EVERY muslim would go round blowing up themselves in the name of allah? think about it silly....
the only thing muslims believe is that there is ONE CREATOR and prophet muhammad is his messanger...
SO if they believe that, they will follow his word i.e the quran...
and as u know SOME people take things out of context (as u r doing) and use things for their own benefits etc....which is wrong.
however others do it, because they know they are accoutnable to god, so they do whatever gods asked...live a peaceful and humble life, by believing in him.
Vik you are an extremely narrow minded individual, i suggest u re-evaluate urself...LOOK AT JAMIE as an example...
dont turn out 2 be like steven dawkins...a sad, bitter old man....
be happy:D look for the truth, dont argue for the sake of arguing, DONT ARGUE AT ALL...
JUST DISCUSS:)
#69if someone does something....in the name of something, does it mean theyll go to paradise??? are you thick? it depends puely on the intention of that person...
So you confirm that you believe that with what you consider to be the right intentions, a Muslim who blows up a plane or train or other public place in the name of Islam, is rewarded for it by being sent to paradise. That's what I expected.
#70Vik,
I think you've missed her point. It takes more than a promise of paradise to drive people to the extreme act of signing on as a suicide bomber.
People in the Middle East are angry, and that makes them vulnerable to people like Osama Bin Ladin, who quote religious text out of context (the same way you do) in order to tap into that anger and use it for his own purposes. Everytime you condemn Islam, you add fuel to Al Qaeda's fire. Have you ever been to the Middle East? Have you visited these Muslims that you claim to know so much about? Have you talked with them face to face?
Of course, there are many kinds of terrorists. Some have purely psychological issues, and this can obviously happen to people in both Muslim and Christian cultures. Why would God create people with mental disorders who will inevitably kill people and then send that person to Hell for something their psychotic delusions caused them to do? It's a rhetorical question...I'm not judging God...just pondering.
The fact is, our enemy can't win a fair fight with us. That's why they use terrorism. From a purely military perspective, you can't blame them for not fighting on our terms. In WWII, the American Air Force attempted to avoid civilian targets early in the war...by the end of it they were firebombing cities like Dresden. Was it a war crime? No...but the innocent civilian on the receiving end of that bomb ended up just as dead. I'm not saying I approve of Al Qaeda's tactics...all I'm saying is that from a military point of view, it's their only option. Your question of , "do they go to paradise" is irrelevant...killing innocent civilians is never good no matter how you look at it. But if you think God is on our side and against them, then you have as little understanding of God as the terrorists do.
If we want to win the war on terror, the most important battle we can win is the one for hearts and minds. Bad mouthing Islam won't get us there. But I'm realistic Vik...you've invested too much into hating Islam to ever see things differently. I consider my visits here a sisyphean challenge.
#71
http://www.watchislam.com/videos/index.php?catid=-1
http://islamalways.com/
http://www.islamqa.com/en
#72Jamie my new found friend.
Vik, you smell...stupid idiot taking things out of context, who u fooling? YOU DUMBO.
have a nice day.
#73RandomGirl, you were very clear in your answer. You said you believe that when a Muslim blows up a plane, train, or other public place in the name of Islam they will go to paradise if they have what you consider to be the right intentions. Do you deny that this is your view?
#74look mr VIK.
if someone does something....in the name of something, does it mean theyll go to paradise??? are you thick? it depends puely on the intention of that person...
u cant just go round bombing things randomly? AND how do u know muslims arent being targetted by the west? how do you know that the west dont wana keep muslims on the low, so their ideologies (which are very reationally understandable) wont be allowed to be seen by the public....HOW DO U KNOW ISLAM ISNT A THREAT to the west????????? which is why they are doing their best to blame it for things? so people wont turn to it.
WHY IS IT THAT AFTER THE 9/11 MORE PEOPLE TURNED TO ISLAM? TELL MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE????????
HOW DO U KNOW THE PEOPLE BOMBING WERE MUSLIMS? were you there Mr Vik?
Have u ever spoken 2 a practicing muslim Mr Vik?
Are you mentally not quite there Mr Vik?
Get lessons from Jamie, as i said before....
#75RandomGirl, you've had several opportunities to state that in your view, a Muslim who blows up a plane, train, or other public place in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise. You have refused to do so. It is reasonable to conclude that you believe that a Muslim who blows up a plane, train, or other public place in the name of Islam, is indeed rewarded for it by being sent to paradise - at least if the Muslim has what you consider to be the right intentions. If this is your view then your interpretation of the Koran is identical to mine.
#76Vik,
You hear on the news that another suicide bomber has attacked innocent civilians...do you believe they're going to hell? That's the logical conclusion we all jump to, isn't it...but is it really so logical? When you know absolutely nothing about that person's life and the circumstances which drove them to such an extreme act, can you really say that the motivation was pure evil?
The prime motivation of terrorism is not a promise of paradise...it's revenge. Anger is a powerful motivator...more so than any other emotion. Nothing drives a person to action stronger than a sense of injustice. It is a type of insanity...but sometimes the causes are very real.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/what-motivates-suicide-bombers-0
You often complain that Muslims don't condemn acts of terrorism such as 9/11 as vehemently as they should. The trouble is, the terrorists use similar logic to consider all Americans guilty by association. We have a long history of meddling in the affairs of the Middle East...the majority of muslims are against terrorism, but they recognize where the anger comes from.
I can hear the outrage now...how can I defend such heinous acts? I don't...I'm simply observing the root of the problem, in order to find a better solution than attempting to kill and/or subjugate all muslims...which is essentially what this website would like to see done. No? You disagree that that's the goal? If we ban the Koran, is that not subjugation? If we agree to your supposition that Islam calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate all of us, is it not incumbent upon us to protect our freedom by striking first, and eliminating the threat by all means necessary? It's not like Muslims like Paul Armstrong weren't willing to meet you in the middle...but nothing he ever said was good enough for you. You offer no compromise...you seek total and complete victory. You will not have it.
What faith I do have is that God doesn't choose sides in the conflicts of human beings.
#77You know how a terrorist can get to heaven?...convert to Christianity. Osama Bin Ladin himself, if he is still alive, could decide to become a Christian, and would then have a first class ticket to heaven...meanwhile, a person living in peace and harmony with all around him can go to hell for not accepting Jesus as his saviour...what sense does that make?
Personally, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised by the diversity of souls they find in heaven when they die. Religion is tied as much to culture as it is to doctrine, and why would God prefer one culture over another?
#78The following is a short article of "A German's View on Islam." It says that the peaceful Muslims are "Cowed and Irrelevant." And it gives you some history. So just how is this "Let the Muslims pick and choose what verses they want to believe in" thing working? How well has it worked for the last 1400 years? Is it not true that "actions speak louder than words?" The article follows:
#79There's no more or less reason for Muslims to pick and choose verses than Christians. It's all about interpretation...and no one has shown how the interpretation of the"sword verses" quoted here are not altered by placing them back into context. Shall we play with Bible verses again? Lest ye forget...Ezekiel 9:6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. Isaiah 13:16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished. Jeremiah 48:10 A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed! My point is not to say Chrisitanity is evil...I'm saying let the religion without sin cast the first stone. What knowledge of these people do you have other than that filtered by the media of your choice? Anyone can be made to look bad when the writer controls the facts that are to be shared and those that are withheld. If someone wrote an article claiming Muslims to be perfect, I wouldn't have much use for that either.
I'm still curious...how do folks here feel about Osama Bin Ladin going to heaven if we convert him to Christianity? Completely hypothetical I realize...but a great what if? What would be the justice of him going to heaven, while an atheist who led a good life goes to hell? Christianity isn't about how good or bad we are...it's about accepting Jesus as your personal saviour...and then all your sins are washed away, right?
#80I can only add that I would rather live for one who died for me, than die for someone who doesn't care.
I'd love to know what the kid is thinking.