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We’ve heard that colleges are teaching Communism to students.
It’s one thing to read a book about it or to see an excellent documentary about it. I’ve even blogged about one instance of it. But to actually encounter the effect it’s had on someone, is something different.
In a recent post, When Talking to Liberals About Iraq, I described a conversation I’d had with a very smart, well-educated guy, a liberal I happened to get into a conversation with at a local Apple store. Not surprisingy, I’ve spoken to a whole bunch of wonderful, bright, well-educated people who have liberal views. My acquaintance from the Apple store was kind enough to exchange some email with me on the subject of the war in Iraq.
He expressed a view that our high standard of living is a result of Capitalism, which, he feels, can only thrive by oppressing those of other nations who provide us with low-cost labor, and with resources. He noted that Americans enjoy many goods and privileges “even at the lower class levels”. He felt that there can be no equality for the people of the world as long as Capitalism is in use.
And my response on reading this was… waitaminnit. What does he want to replace Capitalism with? Who says Capitalism oppresses those of other nations? “Lower class levels?” Was he taught Communism in college?
I emailed to ask if it was true that he’d been taught Marxism or Communism. At this time he has not yet responded.
Now it made more sense to me why he bought into Michael Moore’s absurd accusation that the Iraq war was conducted for the benefit of companies such as Halliburton. It could well be that he’d been taught in college that Capitalism produces just such distortions; that he’d been taught in college to disparage our institutions.
This is so uncool. First and foremost, it’s false: Communism has led to tragedy wherever it’s been used, while Capitalism has been the most successful engine ever devised for building wealth and raising living standards. And far from oppressing other nations, we are doing everything we can to bring Capitalism and Democracy to them, as we have done in Germany and Japan. We’ve just spent over $100 billion to bring them to Iraq, in an effort powered by the bravery and skills of our soldiers.
It’s an attack on all Americans, to the extent that it teaches people to disparage the institutions that make this country great and which are bringing prosperity to other countries as well.
Finally, it teaches people to get used to believing things that are counter to the demonstrable facts. Which may be part of the explanation of how so many Liberals believe so many things which are not only not true, but counter to so many known facts, such as almost everything in Michael Moore’s film.
To those readers who are in college, are they teaching you Communism? I’d like to hear from you about it. And to those who are not in college, consider asking people you know who are, if that’s what’s going on at their university.
#1
#2Hi Sukirti,
I appreciate getting this comment because it appears to me that you are sincerely interested in these things.
why does not bush sue Michael Moore?
A perfectly good question. As far as I know, no U.S. President has ever sued a private citizen. It's almost unthinkable. It would be considered an attack on freedom of speech.
Moore gives facts and documents.
Does he? So far I've just seen the first 20 minutes of Fahrenheit 911, and in those minutes Michael Moore claimed that all the other networks called the 2000 election for Bush merely because Fox did. Moore offers no proof for this statement; nor would anyone take it seriously. Moore also claimed that Bush did nothing as President except take vacations prior to 9-11. For this claim, Moore offers no proof or documents; he shows pictures of Bush when Bush was on vacation, but that is not proof that Bush was on vacation all the time. See The 56 Deceits in Fahrenheit 911 for documentation on how groundless Moore's claims are.
as long as humanity struggles against opression u can not eliminate marxism
Marxism sounds great on paper, but in the real world it has led to tragedy and oppression every time.
a nation built on slavery of black africans
It was only the southern states that used slavery. The northern states did not. The northern states were far more powerful economically than the south at that time. As you know, there was a civil war in this country that put an end to slavery. It is not accurate to state that America is a nation that was built on slavery. You could just as well describe America as a nation that rejected and put an end to slavery.
#3What goes by the name of communism throughout the world is merely thinly veiled totalitarianism.
The core goal of Marxism was the distribution of the means to production to the proletariat. A utopian fever dream if ever there was one. This quickly devolved into Stalinism in the Soviet Union, which was the brutal suppresion of entire populations for the gain of a very few in the positions of power.
I hope that universities are teaching about Marxism, Trotskyism, Stalism, Maoism, etc, in classes throughout the United States. I don't want them held up as an ideal to be emulated, but as a danger of what happens when we base political reality on utopian dreaming instead of pragmatism.
I would take the argument that Marxism leads to oppression one step further and say that we have only had national governments that claimed they were Marxist. In fact, they were not. They used the label to market themselves as a foil to the (perceived) evil of capitalism.
I think the connection between the teaching of Marxism and people buying into MM's nonsense is spurious at best.
Universities should be teaching anything and everything. I know (or surely hope) that you're not looking to ban teaching of economic and political philosophies other than capitalism. It is up to an educated population to make rational decisions based on the full spectrum of available knowledge.
Finally, I have read Marx, and Engels too. I've also read Thoreau, and believe he found a divine inspiration in his work. However, I also know that he left Walden after just a couple years to rejoin a society based on pragmatism.
The developed Western nations are not free of brutality and oppression, but then no grouping of humans ever has been. It is our nature and psychology that must be understood to evolve out of the problems that we've created for ourselves on this planet. No system of government will make man good, no set of laws will cause people to behave humanely. Capitalism, flaws and all, is the best system yet. We have further to go in our development before we can call everything right in the world. Yearning for utopianism isn't going to bring the crops in from the field, though.
#4hi vik
i will try to be precise in wat i say
1) you say that bush doesnot sue moore bcause it would then be considered an infringement on the freedom of speech. i think no other president in history has faced an allegation of waging an war because of such narrow means.freedom of speech doesnot mean freedom to slander. here its not merely about bush,its about the whole of his government as well.you mean to say that bush lets moore go on with outright lies that show not only him but his colleague and his government in a bad light as well merely bcause of the 'freedom of speech' concept? that i think is hardly believable. does bush put the freedom of speech of an obvious liar like moore higher than the prstige of his government which represents the whole of america? think about it.
2) as you yourself say you have not seen moore's film beyond the first twenty minutes,if you do so you will find amomg others these two key documentary evidence:
a)from your recomended link The 56 Deceits in Fahrenheit 911 what one can definitely conclude is that the bush adminstration did black out bath's name from the repeort released to the media.
b) as your link admits the bin ladens did leave the us on 13th. funny that they left the us only after 9/11 and all of the bin ladens. after all the us is considered to be the land of freedom.imagine some people being victimised there just becuase of a bad surname. ur link goes on to mention that the fbi interrogated the binladens,for how long and whether just one interrogation was enough for an act of the magnitude that had been commited is no where mentioned in your link.even a simple murder case accused is interrogated more than what the fbi did with the binladens.
3) about th us built on slavery here is what i have from various source s on the net.
Slavery was a legal institution in all of the 13 American colonies. A majority of the founding fathers owned slaves, including the author of the Declaration of Independence, the Father of the Constitution, and the commander of the Continental Army.(http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/black_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=14)
On a typical plantation, slaves worked ten or more hours a day, "from day clean to first dark," six days a week, with only the Sabbath off. At planting or harvesting time, planters required slaves to stay in the fields 15 or 16 hours a day. When they were not raising a cash crop, slaves grew other crops, such as corn or potatoes; cared for livestock; and cleared fields, cut wood, repaired buildings and fences.
(http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/black_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=21)
and as you say we have to give credit to the us for abolishing slavery!!!
you can only abolish something that you yourself have created in the first place.
4) you say you have read marx and engels.true but you have not grasped their logic. no system is fully implementable not even capitalism. your country still has subsidies for agriculture while it talks about free market and urges asian nations to remove subsidies on agriculture!!i think this is an example of capitalism being fully pragmatic!!
in spite of countless reams of paper and web pages devoted to destroy marxism it still rages on. fascism is confined o europe mostly. kkk is all but gone but acroos the world from latin america to asia and even europe the communits still fight. their continued existence is proof in itself that marxism is a living dynamic ideology
and last but not the least you have on your site a quotation about the supposed greatness of christianity against islam. vik, understand your religion is just as important to you as islam is to others. trapped in your grand vision of christian supremacy you consider your religion to be the best.tolerance, i thought was a virtue in free america( where reporta abt 9/11 are cut down by 28 pages by the government that itslef appointed the same committe, hey i thiught that only took place in iron curtain ussr!!)
u just cant dictate ur religion to others vik,for you your jesus is above all for me he is nothing and thats the way it has been always. just by phase mongering you cant make others beleieve in your religion ,vik .just as we give u ur religious freedom yu should also allow us the luxury of non believing.
all the best
yours sincerely
sukirti sen
#5Hi Sukirti,
Thanks for the comment. I want to respond in some detail, but first, let me make sure I understand what you're saying here:
...you have on your site a quotation about the supposed greatness of christianity against islam.
I think this is the quote you are referring to:
"We're really blessed in this country to have the Judeo-Christian tradition of wanting to love each other and help each other have better lives and to enjoy life and be good to each other. As opposed to the tradition of some Islamofascist localities where they do the reverse - sending their own children off to be blown up."
I don't consider islamofascism to be the same as islam. So let me make sure there is no misunderstanding. Do you consider it part of islam to blow up civilians on busses or in the World Trade Center?
#6hi vik
it is about the very terminology that you use in your website 'islamofasciist'.why come up with such a term? do you mean to say that some section of a particular sect of religion who misuse the religion convert the whole religion into fascism? if that is your logic then the medival killings (joan of arc ,for an example) linked to the church would have converted christianity into 'christianosuperfascism'. in my country (india) some of the means taken by missionaries to propogate their religion at the begining of the century have taken up more lives in total than the world trade centre killings.yet we have never stigmatised your religion by calling it 'christiano fascism'.yet whole villages were forcibly converted into christianity.till today in some villages the help that the missionaries are supposed to provide irrespective of religious biases have always flowed to those who have shown a willingness to accept jesus as god.that someone would do such a thing in the name of charity, in the name of jesus is definitely something beyond all humanism and into the realms of fascism.yet we have never ever used terms like 'christiano fascism'. i am not a muslim nor a christain and i dont believe in any religion yet i find this terminology you use to describe islam just due to the actions of a handful of islamic hooligans most inappropriate.
by the way, conversing with you has definitely also made me delve into websites to quote my arguments. i would like to know something more about you.i dont even know how old you are and what your occupation is. if you are interested you might like to try out this: just type the name 'p.sainath' in google and you can see how capitalism, the great engine of developement has totlly ruined our rural areas.mr.sainath is a journalist of international repute and he shows how pure class discrimination can reult in catastrophe and yet the 'free media' you so much cherish ,by virtue of being a representative of the exploiting class itself doesnot project any information about the same.
i will still be waiting for your reply to my queries in the last mail.
always a pleasure to interact with you
i remain
yours sincerely
sukirti
#7Hi Sukirti,
Thanks for the comment. How cool is this? We're on opposite sides of the world and we have the opportunity to have an intelligent conversation on an important subject.
I can't take credit for the word "islamofascist." It's in common use on a number of sites.
do you mean to say that some section of a particular sect of religion who misuse the religion convert the whole religion into fascism?
That is not the meaning of the world "islamofascist" as it is commonly used at this time. The word "islamofascist" refers specifically to people who, as you say, misuse Islam; who kill civilians in the name of that religion. It refers to what Daniel Pipes calls "militant Islam:"
...the enemy is Islamism, a terroristic version of Islam. Islamism is the totalitarian root of the problem; terrorism is only a symptom, an instrument of war used by Islamists to achieve their objectives. Once these facts are understood, it becomes clear that the struggle is ultimately one of ideas and armies, not of law enforcement or religion.
...If militant Islam is the problem; moderate Islam is the solution.
Regarding me, I'll probably put up a profile page at some point.
Regarding Sainath, it may well be that certain developers are ruining rural areas in India. But it would be a terrible mistake to blame this on Capitalism. Those developers must be reined in by the rule of law. Capitalism brings freedom and power to people. Naturally some people are going to do bad things with it.
Regarding slavery, I'm not sure we disagree on anything at this point. We both agree that slavery was terrible, and that the U.S. put an end to it. It may be true that it was practiced in the original 13 American colonies, but it's important to remember that there was no American nation at that point -- those colonies belonged to Britain. At the time of the civil war, slavery was practiced in the Southern states, and not in the Northern states.
dear vik
if all that moore shows is false why doesnot bush dare to sue him? he gives facts and documents.if thats false why doesnot bush sue him??? and as for ur tirade against marxism. as long as humanity struggles against opression u can not eliminate marxism. funny that a nation built on slavery of black africans can even talk abt capitalism as an engine of developement.read marx and try to fathom what he says.ur life will be liberated.