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One of the cool things about blogging is you get to have conversations with people from all over the world. This morning this comment came in from Samara, a reader in Egypt:
It is astonishing how people think. Please answer the following questions honestly:
1-How do you consider the situation of Israel in Palestine? - An occupation force
- forced palestineans out of their country to occupy
- Killing, kidnapping and arresting palestinens all the time
- Destroying Lebanon now, klling hundreds of civilians and making millions homeless.
- Kidnapping, and arresting ministers and members of parliaments who came through democratic process.
2- who is really the terrorist?
Samara is asking questions that surely many people in Egypt have. I responded:
Welcome to the site, Samara. I'm glad you asked these questions, because many other people in Egypt have them as well.
Here is information in response to your questions (html link here - pdf link here):
Origins of the Problem
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There were no "Palestinian" lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians.
...In 1947, the UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the Arabs. The Arabs rejected their state, and launched a war against Israel. This is the primal cause of the Arab refugee problem.
The Arab refugees were roughly 725,000 people who fled because of the war that the Arab states - not the Palestinian Arabs-started. The Arab states - dictatorships all - did not want a non-Arab state in the Middle East. The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations vastly outnumbered the Jewish settlers in the Turkish Empire, initiated the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created state of Israel on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war of annihilation against the Jews. The war failed. But the state of war has continued uninterruptedly because of the failure of the Arab states -Saudi Arabia and Iraq in particular - to sign a peace treaty with Israel. To this day, the Arab states and the Palestinians refer to the failure of their aggression and the survival of Israel as an-Nakba - the catastrophe.
Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, and no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.
[.....]
Zionist pioneers from the middle of the 19th century onward joined the local Jewish communities in rebuilding a Jewish homeland in what was then the Turkish Empire by purchasing land from the Turkish Crown and from Arab landowners (effendi). There was no invasion, no conquest, and no theft of Arab land - and certainly not of a land of Palestine, since the Arabs living in the region had been Turkish subjects for 400 years. Unarmed and possessing no military, the Jews bought so much land from Arabs that in 1892, a group of effendi sent a letter to the Turkish Sultan, requesting that he make it illegal for his subjects to sell land to the Jews. Their successors did the same thing, via a telegram, in 1915. Evidently, the very presence of Jews owning land in the Middle East - however legally acquired - was offensive to some.
It is indisputable that there was no theft, because no one complained of any. No Arabs were driven from their homes. In fact, as a demographic study published by Columbia University demonstrates the Arab population of the area grew tremendously during this period in part because of the economic development that the Jews helped to generate. Between 1514 AD and circa 1850, the Arab population of this region of the Turkish Empire was more or less static at about 340,000. It suddenly began to increase around 1855, and by 1947 the Arab population stood at about 1,300,000-almost quadrupling in less than 100 years. The exact causes of this population rise are beyond the scope of this essay, but the causal correlation between this independently documented phenomenon and the Zionist enterprise is beyond rational argument.
Far from driving out any Arabs, stealing their land or ruining their economy, the work of the Jewish pioneers in the 19th and early 20th centuries actually enabled the Arab population to quadruple, the economy to enter the modern era, and the society to slough off the shackles of serfdom that typified the effendi-fellah (land-owner/serf) relationship of the Ottoman era. An Arab working in a Jewish factory or farming community could earn in a month what his father earned in a year eking out a living as a subsistence-level farmer using medieval technology. Arab infant mortality plummeted and longevity increased as the Jews shared their modern medical technology with their Arab neighbors.
Much of the land that the Zionists purchased was desert and swamp, uninhabited and deemed uninhabitable by the Arabs. Modern agrarian techniques instituted by the Jews and the blood and sweat of thousands of idealistic Zionists reclaimed that land and turned it into prime real estate with flourishing farms and rapidly growing com- munities sporting modern technology and a healthy market economy. As a result, Arab migrants poured into the region from surrounding states, with hundreds of thousands seeking a better life and greater economic opportunity. Based on the above, it is fair to suggest that a significant plurality, if not a majority, of Arabs living in Israel today owe their very existence to the Zionist endeavor.
Validation of this history, which is quite at variance with the standard Arab propaganda, comes from a surprising source. Sheikh Yousuf al-Qaradhawi, international Arab terrorist and lieutenant to Osama bin Laden, in a televised speech in May, 2005, chided his followers with the following words: "Unfortunately, we [Arabs] do not excel in either military or civil industries. We import everything from needles to missiles…How come the Zionist gang has managed to be superior to us, despite being so few? It has become superior through knowledge, through technology, and through strength. It has become superior to us through work. We had the desert before our eyes but we didn't do anything with it. When they took over, they turned it into a green oasis. How can a nation that does not work progress? How can it grow?"
You ask about Israel "Killing, kidnapping and arresting palestinens all the time."
This statement is not accurate. Israel doesn't target Palestinian civilians. Surely you are aware of this. Palestinian civilians are killed when they are too close to the terrorists, targeted by Israel, who are actively engaged in killing Israeli citizens.
As you know, the Palestinians have made it their business for over a decade to go into Israel wherever possible and intentionally kill civilians, blowing up restaurants and other public places. Israel has never done anything like that to the Palestinians.
You ask about Israel "Kidnapping, and arresting ministers and members of parliaments who came through democratic process."
Here you are talking about the ministers of the Hamas government, which as you know, is dedicated to destroying Israel, and to killing Israeli civilians whenever possible, as Hamas has been doing for over a decade. That's an act of war, and Israel has a rightful obligation to defend itself and protect the safety of its people.
Samara, in Egypt you hear a lot of propaganda. But you have access to the Internet. Look around. See things with your own eyes. Find the truth.
'Nuff said.
#1
#2That was a very well written and informative analysis of an obvious situation. It would be nice to see some intellectual duality in these exchanges, not just reckless statements by uninformed sympathizers. Vik, what are your thoughts on the recent Hezbollah-Israel conflict? What are the strongest points to argue in the defense of Israel?
#3Hello, b eazy, and welcome to the site.
Here are some thoughts on the subject, with links to blog posts here:
Paradigm Shift: Arab Nations Show They Will no Longer Go to War on Behalf of Hezbollah & Hamas
Mid-East Casualty Counts: A False Measure of Proportional Force
Preposterously Biased Treatment by the U.N. of the Israel-Hezbollah War
“This misuse of civilians as shields and swords requires a reassessment of the laws of war.”
In terms of a defense for Israel, please see the post, A Nation Can Only Be Terrorized When it Doesn’t Fight Back.
Additional posts on the subject are available in The Mid-East section here.
#4So if United Nations decide to creat a mexican country within USA I am sure you would not mind because it would be legit. And ofcourse Mexican can buy land and creat Mexican country it will be legal too. Palestine do not have problem with Arab Jews they have problem with European Jews who live thier own country and come to Israel. Actually you with see their many Arab Jew who are member of PLO. Their are more than 20 million Arab Christain who live in Arab Muslim Countries. And their are more Jew people who live in muslim countries then in Isreal. Biggest muslim country is India and 2nd largest muslim country is Russia. Do not learn your histroy through Media learn fact my email is //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') document.write("&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"); else document.write(unescape(l[i])); } //]]>
#5First, it's good that you accept all the facts in the post.
You say America wouldn't tolerate anything of the kind. On the contrary. It certainly isn't an exact parallel, but it's not totally different either. The U.S. supports Indian reservations, and has sought mutually beneficial ways to co-exist with them, granting them the rights to legalized gambling which generates substantial revenue for them.
You have a lot of nerve, claming that Russia and India are Muslim countries. Russia is at most 1/3rd Muslim, and India is only 17% Muslim. No doubt you consider America to be a Muslim country as well. You appear to be a living example of what filmmaker Pierre Rehov reported, that when a Muslim sets foot in a new land, he considers that land and anyone in it to now be Muslim. Here is a transcription:
> Audience Member: This is the only documentary on this
> subject I've seen that addresses what these people are
> thinking, being deprived of any kind of pleasure -
> economic, social or sexual. And I was wondering, since
> you don't really present a solution and you don't
> really have a hope at the end, what is your personal
> opinion about where this is going to be going in the
> future?
>
> Pierre Rehov: Tough question, and very hard to answer
> it too. I'm going to give you my honest opinion. I
> think we are on the edge of World War III. This is no
> longer between Israel and the Palestinians. This is
> between Islam and the West. What is happening in Israel
> is, if they win, it will be the first step. They're
> never gonna stop there. There are Arabs who dream of
> going back into Spain, because in the Muslim mentality,
> once a Muslim has put his foot on the land, this land
> automatically must be Islamized. And it's in their
> language. "Salam" doesn't mean "peace," like "shalom"
> means "peace" in Hebrew. "Salam" means, "you've been
> Islamized! You're my brother! Salam, you are Muslim,
> like me!" And there are two things for a Muslim. There
> are "dar al-harb", which is the land of fighting, and
> "dar al-Islam," which is the land of peace. So,
> everything which is not dar al-Islam, must become dar
> al-Islam. And especially if they have conquested this
> in the past, like Israel, like Spain, they must get it
> back. Because if not it means that god, their god, is
> wrong, and this is not acceptable for them. My answer
> to that is, we are in 1938, and the real war is coming
> very, very soon. And we better push our governments to
> do the right thing.
In fact, as opposed to what you stated, the actual majority-Muslim nations have literally killed or driven out virtually all Jews. From Wikipedia:
> In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews
> (see table below) living in communities throughout the
> Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 7,000. In some
> Arab states, such as Libya (which was once around 3%
> Jewish), the Jewish community no longer exists; in
> other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.
Here are two questions for you:
1) Are you willing to say that a Muslim who blows up a train, plane, or bus in the name of Islam, does not go to Heaven, and does not get 72 virgins?
2) Do you want to see Sharia law imposed on the United States?
#6First I am not claiming that India and Russia is muslim country. What I am sayind is that India has the largest population of muslim compare to any other muslim country 17% turn into larger population than Indonasia. Same is true of Russia. Yes we do allow Red Indian to manage their life minus foreign affair and Military affair and printing of their own currency. I am sure Palsteine would allow some to Israel.
#7Thanks for the response, Shahid. I would appreciate it if you would answer my two questions:
1) Are you willing to say that a Muslim who blows up a train, plane, or bus in the name of Islam, does not go to Heaven, and does not get 72 virgins?
2) Do you want to see Sharia law imposed on the United States?
#8Do any one know what Shairah Law? I would even dare muslim to answer this question. Muslim do not believe in heaven and hell in physicall sense for muslim Heaven is when you are near god, and hell when you are away from god. 72 Virgin and an excat translation by Christain media smiply mean 72 names of God. Biggest Chapter in Quran is about Jesus. Most Sunni Muslim believe that Jesus is the Saviour. you have lot to learn about Muslim world my friend. You still do not know anything about Ismailies, Bhories, Alevi, and thousand of other denomination in Muslim world.
#9What you say about the Muslim notion of heaven would be news to all the people who are documented in Pierre Rehov's film, Suicide Killers, saying that they attempted to do suicide bombings specifically because it was promised to them that they would go to heaven and receive 72 female virgins.
It's very strange that you would ask if anyone knows what Sharia law is. Wikipedia has a long article about it here. Some of the features of Sharia law are curtailed freedom of speech, and curtailed freedom for women. Sharia law is so far from being unknown, that it is in fact practiced in many nations. From Wikipedia:
> Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain religious courts for all
> aspects of jurisprudence, and religious police assert
> social compliance. Laws derived from sharia are also
> applied in Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan. Some states in
> northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts. In
> practice the new Sharia courts in Nigeria have most
> often meant the re-introduction of harsh punishments
> without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence
> and testimony. The punishments include amputation of
> one/both hands for theft, stoning for adultery and
> apostasy.
Notice that there is no distinction between Sharia law and "religious courts" - in other words, the Koran is considered to be a basis for a system of laws, which is incompatible with the U.S. Constitution. It is important to bear in mind that Islam is not only a religion, but also, a political ideology, including a system of laws, which is incompatible with the U.S. Constitution. Muslims will be able to successfully assimilate into the U.S. once they agree that the in America, the laws of the Koran are replaced by the laws of the U.S. Constitution. That's why it so important for Muslims, such as yourself, to say, publicly and in print, that they accept the U.S. Constitution and do not want to replace it with Sharia law.
Possibly you are the one who has to learn something about the Muslim world.
It sounds like you might possibly be a recent convert to Islam. You may not know what you're getting yourself into.
#10Brand Name does not mean any thing there are courts in Pakistan which are called KKK. So what? Saudi Arbia is most hated country in muslim world. If we stopping supporting Saud family they would be over throw in a day. What you know is only through media you do not have first hand knoweldge of muslim world. Shariah Law changes from country to country and one written on wikipedia.com is only writers' view. Which bascially mean it Saudi Arbia's view. And did not we started with Isreal.
#11ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS
1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;
2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;
3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;
Read More »
4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 A.D. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;
5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;
6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;
7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM ; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;
8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM ; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA . IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA , WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM ;
9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;
10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;
11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;
12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CORELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL , A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY ;
13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE . THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL , AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;
14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL . ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;
15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;
16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL ; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL ;
17. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM . IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.
http://tammybruce.com/2006/08/the_facts_about.php#001231
#12When you say Arab you mean Christian Arab or Jews Arab right.
Mayor of Bethlelhem is Christain Who support Hamas and is a Minister in Hamas Government. 90% of Arab Christain in Bethelhem voted for Hamas.
My Aunty is Jew and still live in Pakistan. Some Jew were froce to live Arab country after the creation of Isreal in 1948. Just as they (Jew) were force to leave Christain countries of Europe and where not given entry in USA.
Crusader Killed more Jew population in Jersulam and along the way than muslim.
Biggest Problem today Isreal Government faces is not People of Palenstie it is Isreali Muslim who in next 10 year would would be in majority to elecet a muslim Prime Minister.
20 Million Ismiali Muslim do not face Mecca or Jersulam when saying there prays. Alevi muslim in Turkey do not face Mecca or Jersulam when saying their Prayers. The Point is for majority of Muslim it just does not matter because God is every where.
It only Sunni Arab who have tradition to face Mecca when saying their Prayer.
Muslim goes for their Prayer to Mosque, Jamat Khana, Imam bara, Cemevi in Europe, and Church in Russia. and Mandir in India.
It is only sunni Arab who goes to Mosque.
99% of news that we see in western media is about Sunni Arab.
Their are 52 Muslim countries For example news of Countries like Azerbijan, Turkismentan, are never cover by Christain Media.
Fear bring hate and It is very easy to hate. What I am trying to say the war in Plastine is just a Political war. Nothing more nothing Less. And both side are to be blame equally.
#13I came across your site by coincidence today while conducting a search on the net. Being an Egyptian myself, I really enjoyed your looooong detailed answer to Samara on the "origins" of the Arab/Israeli conflict. Do you really think that there is an Egyptian who doesn't know the real history of that conflict inside out? Do you forget that Israel is our neighbor and that Israel used to occupy a chunk of our country? Were your country occupied by a foreign force, would you not have studied your occupier inside out? Egypt may indeed suffer from propaganda..., but only on its two national channels. Unlike Americans however, Egyptians have access to world satellite channels and they are neither illegal nor censored. You can go to the poorest areas in Egypt..., but you shall find a satellite dish over most homes... even if 5 families have to pitch in together to buy a satellite dish which they shall share. Unlike US laws, there are no restrictions on the size of satellite dishes that we wish to install in Egypt. All this is to tell you that Egyptians know exactly what is happening in the Arab/Israeli conflict. They know it from direct experience with Israel and they know it from daily follow-up of various Arab (including Palestinian) and Israeli media. Egyptians and in fact the entire world is also very aware of the propaganda that is continuously being spread in the United States by mainstream Zionist controlled media in order to limit the awareness of the poor American tax-payer... so that Israel can continue cashing in and living at his/her expense. While American Zionist mainstream media is busy telling the American people about Imus, Anna Nicole, her illegitimate son and so on..., world media is usually covering more important items of the news such as the Arab/Israeli conflict or the Iraq war amongst other. The internet is indeed a very important source of information, but mostly for the deprived American people who have done away with their television sets and who are truly seeking to know what is really happening in this world and in the Middle East where Zionist propaganda has pushed them into wars they didn't need to be involved in. Fortunately the internet today provides the American people with the information they seek and also uncovers the kind of propaganda you preach. As to your comments about the Palestinian people and your attempt to portray Israel as a poor little victim-state..., please.... spare us the self pity saga. Israel is in breach of over 150 UN resolutions. Israel is occupying Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian land which according to the UN and to International Law, it is supposed to have withdrawn from. Until today, Israel does not have a constitution... because Israel refuses to specify the geographic frontiers of itself as a country. Israel still has ambitions to occupy more of its neighbors lands. The United States offered Israel the Roadmap for Peace a few years ago. Israel refused it while the entire Arab world agreed to it. The entire Arab world just offered Israel another peace agreement which Nancy Pelosi even championed. Again, Israel refused while the entire Arab world agreed. Thank God for the internet indeed... because the Zionist world no longer has monopoly over the news and it can no longer keep misinforming and manipulating the American people the way it did prior to the Iraq war. I hope that my comment has helped you understand the Egyptian people a little better now... and I don't think that Samara was asking you a question.
#14Princess, it's noteworthy that you don't contradict the facts presented in the article. Let me ask you this: do you believe that Muslims who who blow up Israeli cars, restaurants, planes, and buses, go to paradise?
#15Princess, by the very fact that you speak of the "Zionist cabal" as though it were an undisputed fact shows how much you really DON'T know about the conflict and how much you've been receptive and indoctrinated with Arab and Muslim propaganda that demonize the Jews and. Yes, you very much helped us understand the Egyptian people. But, not in the positive way you were hoping for.
By the way, can you just clarify why it was that Israel was "occupying" part of Egypt? I mean, did Israel just invade the Sinai for no reason other than imperialistic and colonialist and blood thirsty purposes? Can you please name all 150 Resolutions that Israel is supposedly in violation of? Oh, you're referring to the same United Nations that won't criticize any Arab or Muslim country, never mind. They're totally objective. Please tell us what international law and UN Resolutions state that Israel is violating in their "occupation" of so called Syrian, Lebanese, and Palestinian land? What Lebanese land are you referring to? Oh, you mean Shebaa Farms, right? The same Shebaa Farms that your precious UN stated in a Resolution actually belongs to Syria, NOT Lebanon, and will be settled upon further peace deals between SYRIA and Israel.
Princess, I think your big satellite dish is pointed in the wrong direction because your facts seem to be more on the side of Never Neverland and pixie dust. That means you're distorting recorded actual facts while pulling fairy tales out of rainbows with pots of gold at the end. Thank you for giving us such insight into Egypt. I'm glad I'm at peace with people like you.
-OC
#16In response to Vik's comment:
In the interest of clarity, let me respond to your comment. I did not contradict or even attempt to discuss what you present as "facts" in your article or in your site because I believe that it is pointless to discuss real politics in a site that deliberately and consciously spreads Zionist propaganda in order to maintain and protect against all odds Israel's disintegrating image as this poor little innocent country. You ask me a question which again is typically designed to attract pity for the Israelis... and this is my answer to it: 99.9% of the victims of the Arab/Israeli conflict are Palestinians and Arabs who are killed at the hands of Israelis with F-16, cluster bombs, Apaches and all sorts of illegal weapons. 99.9% of the thoughts in my mind... and of the sympathy in my heart consequently goes to those victims. A very very very small percentage of Israelis are killed in comparison to the amount of Palestinians that are killed on daily or rather hourly basis... so it is maybe I who should be asking you how you feel about the Jewish practice of slaughtering the goyim? Yet, I am not asking you..., because I already know your reply. If Israel wants to live in peace and security, all it has to do is abide by the United Nations resolutions and International Law and return all the occupied territories and retreat to the pre-67 borders. You know however as well as I do that Israel has no intention of doing so... and that Israel thus has chosen to reject peace in order to achieve further territorial ambitions. All of Israel's flowery words about "peace" and "security" in the media don't fool us in the Middle East or even the Israeli people who want peace. These cleverly delivered words are intended to placate the poor American souls who are basically being ripped off year after year to finance Israel's illegitimate existence:)
In response to Olah chadasha:
Your comments make me smile... They are so Israeli:) You would have the world believe that Israel is this "peaceful little island of democracy" among those "nasty oger Arabs":)
lol... I wonder why a peaceful little island that causes its inhabitants and neighbors no problem, would need to live inside a cage or rather a fortress?
#17Princess, you still haven't contradicted any of the statements in the original post. You also have not answered my question about whether you believe that Muslims who blow up planes, trains, buses and restaurants go to paradise.
You ignore the fact that just recently Israel did exactly what you claim would bring peace. Israel gave away land in Gaza to the Palestinians, and the result was that that the Palestinians launched more rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza.
These actions of the Palestinians contradict your claim that if Israel gave away land there would be an end to attacks on it.
As you know, the wall was designed to put a stop to the Palestinians who were blowing up public places, and the wall has been very successful in accomplishing this goal. Yet you claim that the wall shows that Israel - and not those blowing up public places - is not "peaceful."
I wonder why a peaceful little island that causes its inhabitants and neighbors no problem, would need to live inside a cage or rather a fortress?
In other words, you absurdly claim that Israel must not be peaceful, since its neighbors are always trying to kill Israeli citizens.
It appears that you support people who blow up public places. Do you also support people who send their own little children off to blow themselves up in public places?
#18Princess, thank you for proving my point.
Vik Rubenfeld,and Ola Shadasha, get a hold of yourselves. Methink you both need to find some real history books, written by real historians before you expand into the history of the Arab Israeli problem. You will find these books in English, French, even in Hebrew, since in your own country, there are many excellent and honest historians who do not need glasses to see beyond the delightful myth perpetrated by your Zionist discourse. To cite but a few, you can refer to Illan Pappe, Israel Shamir, Uri Avnery, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Haas, Jim Petras, Gilad Atzmon, Gideon Levy, and many others who write nothing that has not been fully researched. Believe me, that is a bit of sincere advice given to two Israelis by a sincere Egyptian. If you want to impart on yourselves and on your blog readers, honest information on the history of the Arab Israeli conflict, that is what you would do. But if you insist on giving the kind of fictional, albeit amusing and very self-satisfying interpretation of the history of that conflict, repeated ad nauseam by the Israeli propaganda machine, do go on reading what you seem to be reading now, comic books made in Israel, Israeli schoolbooks or touristic fairy tales about the land of milk and honey, and the men and women who have turned the lands of the Palestinians (Palestinians? What Pallestinians??) into green pastures and fields. At the same time, make sure that your IDF ( Defence , did you say???) and your peaceful settlers continue doing all the nice things they are so good at. And, oh yes, watch Hollywood films with the invariable Arab terrorist killing innocent Israelis and blowing himself up. Somewhere in your discourse, please don't forget to mention your favourite argument of the 72 virgins waiting for the bombers in Paradise, but be sure to add in what fraudulent source you unearthed this invaluable gem of information . I am sure you will have many happy readers, but let me tell you, to quote a wise man: "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time".
#20Nefer:
-- You haven't yet contradicted any statement in the article on which you are commenting.
-- You misquoted Lincoln, which is odd in a comment boasting about your scholarship.
-- You say that an argument about 72 virgins is based on a "fraudulent source." But if you take a look at Rehov's documentary film, "Suicide Killers," you can see many failed suicide killers saying in their own words that they attempted the killings in order to get to paradise and get the 72 virgins - and you can see people planning to do suicide killings, saying they are doing so for precisely the same reason.
Let me ask you a question: do you approve of Muslims who blow up planes, trains, buses and restaurants in the name of Islam?
#21Nefer, you quote the likes of Ilan Pappe and Normal Finkelstein as "historians" that I should read. You have no idea what I read, first all all. Second of all, I've read them, and their books are ripe with factual and historical errors. Me thinks you should learn a little bit about how to research historical data before you lecture any-one else on how to do so.
-OC
#22Vik, do you usually document your statements with words uttered in a film by naive young men who are going to meet their maker, and take their words with any amount of reliability??????? I shudder to think of the veracity of whatever else you cite. By the way, I was not at all intending to discuss an article which is so obviously a piece of lousy propaganda. I was talking to you guys in general. I thought I might put some sense into you!! As for you, Ola, I hate to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about when you just dismiss Pappe and Finkelstein as historians. I have a good idea for you, Ola. Why don't you write a book yourself to enlighten us with your knowledge? You can then send a copy to Pappe and Finkelstein, each with your autograph. I am sure they will greatly appreciate that gesture of solidarity.
No, I don't believe anyone should blow up people, homes,in the name of anything at all. Do you guys believe that Israelis who keep doing this now, yesterday, today, tomorrow should do it? Till when? They do it far more efficiently and frequently than the Palestinians, as everyone knows. And they do it with far better weapons, including chemical ones (Haaretz)in the name of Zionism? Why are you asking me that stupid question?
Tsk, tsk,tsk, I thought you guys would come up with a far more devastating critique of my modest attempt!! Nefer
#23Vik, do you usually document your statements with words uttered in a film by naive young men who are going to meet their maker, and take their words with any amount of reliability???????
The statement I made is that Muslims blow up public places out of a belief that they are going to get 72 virgins. The statement is documented by the documentary I cited, and you don't appear to have any doubts that that statement is correct.
By the way, I was not at all intending to discuss an article which is so obviously a piece of lousy propaganda. I was talking to you guys in general.
You have yet to contradict a single statement made in the article.
Do you guys believe that Israelis who keep doing this now, yesterday, today, tomorrow should do it?
Given that Israel is under constant attack from suicide killers, Israel has an absolute obligation to fight back and defend itself. As the article points out - and as you have not been able to contradict - Israel was founded peacefully and did not drive Arabs from their homes.
Nefer, so far you are all talk. It is up to you to attempt to provide documentation that contradicts the article; if you can't, then that shows that you are mistaken.
#24Nefer, name me each Pappe and Finkelstein you have read, please. It's obvious you have not read any of their books to state that they are historians with impeccable objectivity and factual analysis.
-OC
#25If you want to look for the source of trouble in the Middle East, look no further than the “holy book” that you may hold somewhere in your house. And it doesn’t really matter which book it is. Zionism has proved to be a false Messiah for the Jews and an injustice to the Arabs. From the beginning, Herzl was wrong or lied when he told you that a land without a people needs a people without a land. And, if Palestine actually had been uninhabited, it still has to be said that Jews had no business seeking Messianic or Biblical ghettoes. Those who propose this are deluding the Jews and oppressing and robbing the Arabs, and while they may well bring on Armageddon (as some of them openly desire to do) they will of course fail to bring on the coming of the Messiah, let alone the “second” such coming in which their even more moronic Christian fundamentalist friends affect to believe.
Mistaken as it is as an ethno-nationalist quasi-religious ideology, Zionism may have entirely failed to prove itself justifiable or sustainable, but nonetheless has founded a sort of democratic state which isn’t any worse in its practice than many others with equally dubious origins. And we are of course now faced with Islamic nihilists who oppose any Jewish presence in Palestine at all, and who act accordingly.
Now the struggle is for Enlightenment values, in which all religious fundamentalists are actual or potential traitors. The Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement preceded the Palestine Mandate, and planned for a disastrous partition of the region. If you give the most cursory attention to the writings of Herzl and Nordau and other founders of the Zionist movement, or if you read the memoirs of Yitzhak Rabin closer to our own day, you will notice at once that they knew that a confrontation with the Arab inhabitants of Palestine was unavoidable. This was because they wanted their land, and wanted it without its inhabitants. The historic mistake - even if we agree that there was no ethical error involved - was the assumption that in time the Arabs would simply get used to this expropriation. To describe this is a mistake is of course a colossal.
The theft of land continues to this moment in the specific as well as the general sense: a farmer whose great-grandfather worked the same olive grove can be evicted without notice to make room for a settlement or a road or a wall, and told that such a flagrant confiscation is justifiable because he is not a Jew. This is a scandal, and its roots are inscribed in Israeli law, and can never be justified. The only actual justification offered is that god awarded the land to one tribe a good many years ago, and of course this appalling racist and messianic delusion only makes a terrible situation even worse.
I might add that this program of colonization was well under way before there were any suicide bombers, and was ruthlessly continued during the unarmed intifadah of the 1980s, as it was during every single day of the Oslo negotiations. International law explicitly forbids interference with the demography and ownership of territories occupied in wartime. Meanwhile, leading Israeli conservatives speak openly about a “transfer” or mass deportation of the remaining Arab population, and boast that this is no more than what they began doing in 1947/1948.
Any decent human being must be opposed to this maltreatment of the Palestinians. It is a matter of principle. Only for the sake of a doomed racist colonization the Israeli zealots are prepared to destroy the entire possibility of peace in the region (an enterprise that leaves them cold in any case because it doesn’t involve the fulfillment of insane biblical that, and see what you come up with.
The principal reason why this squabble has become so dangerous to the entire world is the "faith based" element. What did they imagine would be the response of the followers of the Prophet? Not even the most secular and internationalist Palestinian could be expected to bear the indignity of being first chucked out of his land and then told that oranges didn't grow in the "desert" of Haifa until 1948. One must not insult or degrade or humiliate people, let alone deport or dispossess them. Nor is one permitted to lie about history.
#26d advocate, I'm glad to see that you say the following:
Zionism ... has founded a sort of democratic state which isn’t any worse in its practice than many others with equally dubious origins. And we are of course now faced with Islamic nihilists who oppose any Jewish presence in Palestine at all, and who act accordingly.
In light of that statement, it is odd that you side with those who, as you yourself point out, will not accept any peace in the region, and instead seek to utterly destroy the democratic state.
Please provide documentation for the following statements included in your post:
The theft of land continues to this moment in the specific as well as the general sense: a farmer whose great-grandfather worked the same olive grove can be evicted without notice to make room for a settlement or a road or a wall, and told that such a flagrant confiscation is justifiable because he is not a Jew.
Meanwhile, leading Israeli conservatives speak openly about a “transfer” or mass deportation of the remaining Arab population, and boast that this is no more than what they began doing in 1947/1948.
#27Vik... I see that you are still desperately fishing for crumbs here and there to legitimize Israel or any of Israel's barbaric and illegitimate behavior. Good luck my "friend" because your job is becoming harder and harder to do... considering that the American people (those who don't have dual Israeli/American nationalities and loyalties like you)... and the American army are not going to remain stupid for ever. I dare say..., they have already woken up:)
#28Princess, you offer no documentation, and not even any statements of fact, to back up your points, because you don't have any.
#29Yes Vik, and Israel is at peace with Egypt...
#30Vik, you seem to be obsessed with documentation. Can't you discuss anything in general, without telling who said what? Sometime ago, I answered Vik's and Olah's messages, but my answer never got published. Why was that? Things are not very pretty over where you live, are they? Salaam. Nefer
#31Nefer, in the blogosphere, it is considered good practice to document your facts. Otherwise, it isn't evident that you have your facts right.
Sometime ago, I answered Vik’s and Olah’s messages, but my answer never got published.
No post of yours was deleted. However, if you leave the comment window open for a long time, and click the Post button, your comment can be lost. If you have the comment window open for a long time, make a copy of your comment before clicking the Post button, just in case this happens.
#32Hi, Vik. Here is something that is documented. The Red Cross? It must be anti-semitic, racist, etc. How dare the New York Times publish something like that? Actually, Vik, it is because the wind is finally beginning to turn and the truth cannot be hidden forever! Nefer
AMERICA'S DEMOCRATIC ALLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST
Red Cross scores Israel on human rights
Red Cross Report Says Israel Disregards Humanitarian Law
By STEVEN ERLANGER
The New York Times Tuesday 15 May 2007
JERUSALEM — The International Committee of the Red Cross, in a confidential
report about East Jerusalem and its surrounding areas, accuses Israel of a
“general disregard” for “its obligations under international humanitarian law —
and the law of occupation in particular.”
The committee, which does not accept Israel’s annexation of East Jerusalem,
says Israel is using its rights as an occupying power under international law
“in order to further its own interests or those of its own population to the
detriment of the population of the occupied territory.”
With the construction of the separation barrier, the establishment of an outer
ring of Jewish settlements beyond the expanded municipal boundaries and the
creation of a dense road network linking the different Israeli neighborhoods and
settlements in and outside Jerusalem, the report says, Israel is “reshaping the
development of the Jerusalem metropolitan area” with “far-reaching humanitarian
consequences.” Those include the increasing isolation of Palestinians living in
Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank and the increasing difficulty for some
Palestinians to easily reach Jerusalem’s schools and hospitals.
Report precedes Israeli celebration of city seizure
The Red Cross committee, which is recognized as a guardian of humanitarian law
under the Geneva Conventions of 1949, does not publish its reports but provides
them in confidence to the parties involved and to a small number of countries.
This report was provided to The New York Times by someone outside the
organization who wanted the report’s conclusions publicized. The leak came just
days before Israel’s celebration of Jerusalem Day this Wednesday, observing
the 40th anniversary of the unification of the city.
The committee is better known for its role in visiting prisoners all over the world
to try to ensure humanitarian conditions. It has been involved for decades
with the Israeli-Palestinian situation as part of its role in upholding the Geneva
Conventions, which cover the responsibilities of occupying countries. But its
reports rarely surface.
The report considers all land that Israel conquered in the 1967 war to be occupied
territory. It was the result of nine months of work by the committee and was
delivered in late February “to Israel and to a small number of foreign governments
we believe would be in the best position to help support our efforts for the
implementation of humanitarian law,” said Bernard Barrett, a spokesman for the
committee in Jerusalem.
Conditions have worsened for Palestinians in East Jerusalem, which has long had
inferior services.
Barrier wall part of ethnic-cleansing scheme
Security restrictions and the barrier that runs around and through parts of East
Jerusalem were Israel’s response to suicide bombings after 2000, but they made it
much more difficult for Palestinians to move into and out of Jerusalem.
It is virtually impossible for Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza to move to
Jerusalem if they were not born in the city; even visiting requires a permit that can
be hard to get. Natural population growth and building restrictions in Arab parts of
the city means that large families often share very small apartments.
Palestinians argue that the building restrictions are meant to suppress the growth
of the their community; the Israelis counter that zoning restrictions are imposed
throughout the city.
The Red Cross report notes that the separation barrier “was undertaken with an
undeniable security aim,” but adds, “The route of the West Bank barrier is also
following a demographic logic, enclosing the settlement blocs around the city
while excluding built-up Palestinian areas (thus creating isolated Palestinian
enclaves).”
Mustafa Barghouti, spokesman for the Palestinian unity government, welcomed the
report, calling it consistent with the rulings of the International Court of Justice,
which said in a nonbinding opinion in 2004 that Israel’s security barrier was illegal
where it crossed the 1967 lines into occupied territory. “Israel violates international
law with impunity, and couldn’t continue this blunt violation for 40 years if it did not
feel impunity toward the international community,” Mr. Barghouti said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/world/middleeast/15jerusalem.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Nefer
#33JenJen, do you support Hamas rocketing kindergartens?
#34To use a good Yiddish word, that is really Chutzpah on your part. Is it possible that you are so blind that you don't see what Israelis are doing in Palestine, and what they have been doing for decades? You ask a silly question. How can anyone support rocketing kindergartens, anywhere? But is it OK to massively hit Palestinians, from F-16 planes, with rockets, with tanks, and ruin their homes, their schools, their fields, prevent them from getting their money, their salaries, and killing men women and, yes, children in schools? Is it OK for Israelis to do that, with the whole world standing by indifferently, while Hamas is denied the elementary right to resist against the vicious occupation of their, yes, THEIR country? Just go to the myriad of sites on the Internet that will give you the figures of the numbers killed, maimed, wounded among the Palestinians, and compare them to the numbers among the Israelis, a site that will show you a country in ruin, a people abused and humiliated, children hungry. You will then know who is doing more harm, you or Hamas! Did you not read the article I sent you on the Red Cross? You will see then who should ask this question about Hamas, you or I? You, Israelis are going through life not seeing, not hearing, not knowing what is really going on around you, and blissfully unaware that the sky is falling in on you, because you refuse to stop believing in the ridiculous myths of superiority you were brought up with. Wake up and find out what you are doing, and try to think about what that may lead to for your country in the future. Nefer
#35You ask a silly question. How can anyone support rocketing kindergartens, anywhere?
That's an odd question. The people who are doing it, do support it. And you support them. So your response appears to be hypocritical.
The rest of your assertions are refuted by the article you are commenting on.
Did you not read the article I sent you on the Red Cross?
JenJen, not you, posted an article on the Red Cross in this thread. Are you posting as two different people?
Since your facts are wrong, you resort at the end of your comment to threats. Be advised that you are very fortunate - so far - that Israel doesn't do to Hamas, what Hamas has been doing for years - i.e. waging all-out war, including civilian targets.
#36The article was sent to me, and I forwarded it to you. I have several email addresses and names, since your good friends the Americans have decided to censor what they don't like, even on the Internet, and much of my mail gets lost among the treasures of Big Brother. Sorry, I may have forgotten to alter the name and address.
Like a good Zionist that you are, you put words into my mouth. I NEVER SAID I SUPPORTED BOMBING KINDERGARTENS. I specifically said I did not,in line 4 and 5. Perhaps you wear glasses that don't read what you don't like.
I would also be grateful if you told me which of my "facts" are wrong? I see I have to do with a neoconservative who likes war and threats. What you say about Hamas is quite wrong. Did I read that correctly? They are "waging all out war" even upon civilians? Bad boys really, but would you be so kind as to tell me who your F-16s, tanks, rockets, and what have you, were bombing in Lebanon last summer? And what about Gaza? You never answered that question, because there is really nothing you can say! Quickly, before you come up again with one of your irrelevant question, let me tell you that I do not approve of bombing innocent civilians, whether they are Lebanese, Palestinians, Israelis, Tibetans or Mongolians. Unfortunately, the world is ruled my men, and has been since the beginning ot time, and men love war. They love violence, abuse, killings, fighting, winning, and making all the wonderful money war can bring them. Bravo Sarkozy, for having put seven women in your cabinet!
#37I have several email addresses and names, since your good friends the Americans have decided to censor what they don’t like, even on the Internet, and much of my mail gets lost among the treasures of Big Brother.
Yet strangely, you didn't bother to point that out in your comments. It appears that you got caught pretending to be two different people.
When you say that America is censoring comment pages and/or email on the Internet, you're just making that up. That's how weak your arguments are on the facts - you say things that you can't document.
I NEVER SAID I SUPPORTED BOMBING KINDERGARTENS. I specifically said I did not,in line 4 and 5.
That's just hypocrisy, since you support the people who do bomb kindergartens.
#38Your response is really so pathetic that I don't know if I should waste another minute of my time writing to someone as obtuse as you are. Nefer and Jenjen are one and the same person. Why should I point out to you that I have several addresses? Are you my tutor or something?
You cannot believe that your good pals the Americans, censor the Internet? Think of all the lies they told and are still telling their own people and you will have your answer. They have done much worse than tell a few lies to get the war they were itching to wage. One by one, the deceptions of the Schrub administration get uncovered, and even make the mainstream media, because people, dear Vik, even in ignorant America, are not all stupid and naive. It looks like it is you who don't read the Internet, or perhaps you read only what the Zionist sites write.
Finally, you know me so well you can assert that I am a hypocrite when I say I don't support people who kill children? Suit yourself if that makes you feel any better. On the other hand, you say nothing about the fact that Israelis have killed many times over more children and innocent adults than the Palestinians have. I assume that your silence means that you know that. Actually, how could you not know? Everyone who reads even Israeli papers know that! Nefer
#39Why should I point out to you that I have several addresses?
It's not the several addresses - it's the several names you were using, apparently pretending to be two different people.
Please provide web links documenting your assertion that the American government censors the Internet. If you cannot, then it will be apparent that you believe things which are not true.
Finally, you know me so well you can assert that I am a hypocrite when I say I don’t support people who kill children?
All your posts are in support of the people who are doing it. So any claim you make that you do not support them is false based on your own statements.
#40Save the Internet
Internet freedom is under attack as Congress pushes a law that would give companies like AT&T the power to control what you do online.
Moby » Your Senators » Media Action »
Help us win the White House in 2008
MoveOn's launched a major campaign to mobilize voters, run ads, and elect a progressive president in 2008.
Support the
2008 Campaign »
Go to the oveOn site. Nefer
#41Nefer
Sderot created the Gaza Strip
Philip Rizk writing from the Gaza Strip, occupied Palestine, Live from Palestine, 22 May 2007
Palestinians inspect a destroyed metal workshop following an Israeli air strike in Gaza City, early 22 May 2007. (Hatem Omar/MaanImages)
Yesterday eight members of one family were murdered on the spot in Israel's latest military strike on Gaza. The target, doctor Khaleel Al-Haya, a Hamas member, remained unharmed. Later in the day Islamic Jihad responded by firing two homemade rockets into Gaza. One Israeli citizen was killed, another wounded.
This sounds like a horrible, but straightforward series of events. The only aspect that calls for attention is that one of these attacks is considered terrorism, while the other is mentioned in most media outlets only in passing, and referred to as a legitimate attempt on a bad man's life.
A month ago I visited Sderot and met with Dvora Babyan, an Israeli citizen of Iranian and Libyan descent. A homemade Qassam rocket hit her house on April 21 causing damage to the building but causing no fatalities. Having come from Gaza that morning, I had the sense I was overhearing Dvora's words as if spoken to a Palestinian living in Gaza.
"We have sense, we are not barbarians. They are barbarians, we want peace but they are not interested ... When we strike we have to take into consideration the civilians, they don't do this," she said.
Dvora's mindset entails a particular logic that Israel's aggression, because a familiar military apparatus is carrying it out, necessarily verifies its legitimacy. The targeting of a certain Hamas actor is a foreign scene; a rocket hitting a villa in a nice neighborhood of Sderot on the other hand is too close to home not to become a successful headline that grips reader's attention.
In her thought process Dvora simply avoids the fact that in this rocket attack on the Gaza Strip eight civilians were killed, including a 16-year-old boy and two men over 60; for since these civilians were killed by the army, they must be legitimate targets. .
A pile of Qassam rockets fired from Gaza to the Israeli town of Sderot, 6 December 2006. Going one level deeper and trying to assess the moral dimension of such a perspective, it seems that by placing on a scale the death of a Palestinian family on one side and the security of an Israeli community on the other, the balance is retained. The only matter here being that such an imagined weighing is itself a logical fallacy, because the targeted deaths of innocents will never provide security, it will only harbor further revenge. The myth of violence comes into play here, that the assassinations of a few will create security for many. In reality, this myth provides cover up for Israel's actions of the past. Dvora went on in desperation,
"Where will I go? This is my country, this is my home, there is no other place."
Sadly, Dvora would be surprised to know that these questions are not foreign to the Palestinians living only kilometers from her home.
Israeli historian Benny Morris writes this: "the Jewish state would not have come into existence without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them ... There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing." Today Gaza is reaping the consequences of this "necessary" ethnic cleansing. Refugees arriving in Gaza in 1948 must have asked themselves, "Where will I go? This is my country, that was my home, there is no other place." They must have been haunted by that same question, "what barbarian would do this to me?"
The difference between these two cases of questioning is the fact that the coming into existence of Sderot created the hell that the Gaza Strip is today. A little town by the name of Sderot become home to poor immigrants in the early '50s, only years after it had been cleared of Palestinians living in what was the village of Najd.
Today fear fills the hearts of Gaza's people. A fear that they may one day return from their perpetual search for charity and donation empty handed (80 percent of Gazans are receiving international food aid); a fear of waking to another day of hopelessness (70 percent of Gazans are either unemployed or largely unpaid government employees); a fear that the economic disaster they are experiencing today may overcome their lives (60 percent of the population live under the poverty level of $2 per day).
Over the course of the past week Israel has begun to evacuate Israeli citizens from Sderot
Philip Rizk is an Egyptian-German who has lived in Gaza since August 2005 where he works and writes. Philip runs a blog: tabulagaza.com.
Vik, perhaps that will give you another side of the story which you are surely not in the habit of reading. Nefer
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#42Princess of the Nile,
I did't have time to read the whole blog (being at work). I' a canadian of french origin (that would be 330 years ago) and therefore a "goy". What Vik presented at the beginning appears to be history to me and very actual.
Why is it that muslims almost always avoid answering very reasonnable questions? I can assure you that if I were in israel's shoes, my reaction would have been far more energetic. This would have been the case with most western countries. We just tend to pontificate over a small country under duress: you may call this hypocrisy. We are good at this.
Jean
#43A stupid question: Can somebody explain me how and why the world belongs and is divided in countries mainly by two big communities: the christian and the muslim... Why do others have no place to hide?
#44The most important book you may ever read is "The Sword of the Prophet," by Serge Trifkovic. In that, you will read about Islam, from the time of Muhammod to the current time, Kosovo, Symrna Turkey, 9/11, all of it. But in this book, and countless others, you will see that the reason is the Quran, which divides the world into "dar al Islam" (the house of Islam) and dar al Harb (the House of War, that is, perpetual war against the Unbelievers. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is that of Shirk, or being an Unbeliever, and if you have not converted, Islam is at war with you. Just in case you did not know.
#45vic rubenfeld why are you being sucked into all this jerking off often lethal trivia between the children of sarah and haggar and other apostates and bleeding heart humanists.. . as far as i am concerned a pox on all religious dogma and creed which divides that pavlovian slavering dog called man who is a predator and self worshipper by nature and often refuses to learn the lessons of abraham who abhorred idolatry and human sacrifice so pandemic today. with regards adam ps i presume you have read NOAM CHOMSKY ON HEGEMONY OR SURVIVAL. america versus the islamic extremist. the big question and issue which is worse in the eternal battle between good and evil which is so delighfully betrayed by dan brown in angels and demons. would you believe it money and success has transformed tom hanks into kissing the backside of the holy roman catholic imperial fascist empire with its jesus loving popes and their satanic smiles. they are much better at it than those jihadists..
#46dear vic, i have read these comments on your article by chance. i am a christian Egyptian . I would like to state some facts. Moslems in any Islamic country do not read at all, even in thier own religion books. they only believe what they are told by thier shiekhs. Most of the moslims are non arabic speakers (e.g pakistan, Philippines ect.) they don't even understand what they are praying. Secondly the hatred of jews is well established in the beliefs of moslims as they take it after the profit who in several ahadith (which are the sayings of Mohamed) he states that moslims must fight jews until when the jew hides behind a rock or a tree, the rock or the tree will call to the moslim to point where the jew is hiding. He even has a hadith which says that God damns Christians and Jews.
Thirdly most of the embarssing parts of the Koran and the ahadith are translated with a more appropriate meaning to the civilized European minds trying to covince them with the imaginary peaceful Koran and Islam.
Last the peaceful approach towards christians in moslim countries is just an outer crust. This is practised only infront of international media. the truth is that the christians suffer in moslim countries but only under the table. have you ever heard of a christian athelet (it is clear that all christians are weak and crippled maybe). have you ever heard of a dean of college in all these universities is a christian (it seems that the grandchildren of the pharoahs are stupid and ignorant). Are you allowed to change your religion from a moslem to any other religion (the opposite of course is most welcomed). History itself proves how all of the conquered countries by islam had to change thier languages to arabic. how all churches were converted to mosques. how it is up till now forbiden to build churches. who are they kidding themselves or the non arabic speaking countries, but certainely not us christians living in hell.
#47Dahlia,
Thanks very much for this post. I have just quoted it in its entirety in a new article on the front page. If you would like to send additional info, please do.
Well said, but I'm guessing that wasn't the response he was looking for