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July 2007 Stats for The Big Picture.
One of the cool things about blogging is you get to have conversations with people from all over the world. This morning this comment came in from Samara, a reader in Egypt:
It is astonishing how people think. Please answer the following questions honestly:
1-How do you consider the situation of Israel in Palestine? - An occupation force
- forced palestineans out of their country to occupy
- Killing, kidnapping and arresting palestinens all the time
- Destroying Lebanon now, klling hundreds of civilians and making millions homeless.
- Kidnapping, and arresting ministers and members of parliaments who came through democratic process.
2- who is really the terrorist?
Samara is asking questions that surely many people in Egypt have. I responded:
Welcome to the site, Samara. I'm glad you asked these questions, because many other people in Egypt have them as well.
Here is information in response to your questions (html link here - pdf link here):
Origins of the Problem
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There were no "Palestinian" lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians.
...In 1947, the UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the Arabs. The Arabs rejected their state, and launched a war against Israel. This is the primal cause of the Arab refugee problem.
The Arab refugees were roughly 725,000 people who fled because of the war that the Arab states - not the Palestinian Arabs-started. The Arab states - dictatorships all - did not want a non-Arab state in the Middle East. The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations vastly outnumbered the Jewish settlers in the Turkish Empire, initiated the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created state of Israel on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war of annihilation against the Jews. The war failed. But the state of war has continued uninterruptedly because of the failure of the Arab states -Saudi Arabia and Iraq in particular - to sign a peace treaty with Israel. To this day, the Arab states and the Palestinians refer to the failure of their aggression and the survival of Israel as an-Nakba - the catastrophe.
Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, and no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.
[.....]
Zionist pioneers from the middle of the 19th century onward joined the local Jewish communities in rebuilding a Jewish homeland in what was then the Turkish Empire by purchasing land from the Turkish Crown and from Arab landowners (effendi). There was no invasion, no conquest, and no theft of Arab land - and certainly not of a land of Palestine, since the Arabs living in the region had been Turkish subjects for 400 years. Unarmed and possessing no military, the Jews bought so much land from Arabs that in 1892, a group of effendi sent a letter to the Turkish Sultan, requesting that he make it illegal for his subjects to sell land to the Jews. Their successors did the same thing, via a telegram, in 1915. Evidently, the very presence of Jews owning land in the Middle East - however legally acquired - was offensive to some.
It is indisputable that there was no theft, because no one complained of any. No Arabs were driven from their homes. In fact, as a demographic study published by Columbia University demonstrates the Arab population of the area grew tremendously during this period in part because of the economic development that the Jews helped to generate. Between 1514 AD and circa 1850, the Arab population of this region of the Turkish Empire was more or less static at about 340,000. It suddenly began to increase around 1855, and by 1947 the Arab population stood at about 1,300,000-almost quadrupling in less than 100 years. The exact causes of this population rise are beyond the scope of this essay, but the causal correlation between this independently documented phenomenon and the Zionist enterprise is beyond rational argument.
Far from driving out any Arabs, stealing their land or ruining their economy, the work of the Jewish pioneers in the 19th and early 20th centuries actually enabled the Arab population to quadruple, the economy to enter the modern era, and the society to slough off the shackles of serfdom that typified the effendi-fellah (land-owner/serf) relationship of the Ottoman era. An Arab working in a Jewish factory or farming community could earn in a month what his father earned in a year eking out a living as a subsistence-level farmer using medieval technology. Arab infant mortality plummeted and longevity increased as the Jews shared their modern medical technology with their Arab neighbors.
Much of the land that the Zionists purchased was desert and swamp, uninhabited and deemed uninhabitable by the Arabs. Modern agrarian techniques instituted by the Jews and the blood and sweat of thousands of idealistic Zionists reclaimed that land and turned it into prime real estate with flourishing farms and rapidly growing com- munities sporting modern technology and a healthy market economy. As a result, Arab migrants poured into the region from surrounding states, with hundreds of thousands seeking a better life and greater economic opportunity. Based on the above, it is fair to suggest that a significant plurality, if not a majority, of Arabs living in Israel today owe their very existence to the Zionist endeavor.
Validation of this history, which is quite at variance with the standard Arab propaganda, comes from a surprising source. Sheikh Yousuf al-Qaradhawi, international Arab terrorist and lieutenant to Osama bin Laden, in a televised speech in May, 2005, chided his followers with the following words: "Unfortunately, we [Arabs] do not excel in either military or civil industries. We import everything from needles to missiles…How come the Zionist gang has managed to be superior to us, despite being so few? It has become superior through knowledge, through technology, and through strength. It has become superior to us through work. We had the desert before our eyes but we didn't do anything with it. When they took over, they turned it into a green oasis. How can a nation that does not work progress? How can it grow?"
You ask about Israel "Killing, kidnapping and arresting palestinens all the time."
This statement is not accurate. Israel doesn't target Palestinian civilians. Surely you are aware of this. Palestinian civilians are killed when they are too close to the terrorists, targeted by Israel, who are actively engaged in killing Israeli citizens.
As you know, the Palestinians have made it their business for over a decade to go into Israel wherever possible and intentionally kill civilians, blowing up restaurants and other public places. Israel has never done anything like that to the Palestinians.
You ask about Israel "Kidnapping, and arresting ministers and members of parliaments who came through democratic process."
Here you are talking about the ministers of the Hamas government, which as you know, is dedicated to destroying Israel, and to killing Israeli civilians whenever possible, as Hamas has been doing for over a decade. That's an act of war, and Israel has a rightful obligation to defend itself and protect the safety of its people.
Samara, in Egypt you hear a lot of propaganda. But you have access to the Internet. Look around. See things with your own eyes. Find the truth.
'Nuff said.
#1
#2That was a very well written and informative analysis of an obvious situation. It would be nice to see some intellectual duality in these exchanges, not just reckless statements by uninformed sympathizers. Vik, what are your thoughts on the recent Hezbollah-Israel conflict? What are the strongest points to argue in the defense of Israel?
#3Hello, b eazy, and welcome to the site.
Here are some thoughts on the subject, with links to blog posts here:
Paradigm Shift: Arab Nations Show They Will no Longer Go to War on Behalf of Hezbollah & Hamas
Mid-East Casualty Counts: A False Measure of Proportional Force
Preposterously Biased Treatment by the U.N. of the Israel-Hezbollah War
“This misuse of civilians as shields and swords requires a reassessment of the laws of war.”
In terms of a defense for Israel, please see the post, A Nation Can Only Be Terrorized When it Doesn’t Fight Back.
Additional posts on the subject are available in The Mid-East section here.
#4So if United Nations decide to creat a mexican country within USA I am sure you would not mind because it would be legit. And ofcourse Mexican can buy land and creat Mexican country it will be legal too. Palestine do not have problem with Arab Jews they have problem with European Jews who live thier own country and come to Israel. Actually you with see their many Arab Jew who are member of PLO. Their are more than 20 million Arab Christain who live in Arab Muslim Countries. And their are more Jew people who live in muslim countries then in Isreal. Biggest muslim country is India and 2nd largest muslim country is Russia. Do not learn your histroy through Media learn fact my email is
#5First, it’s good that you accept all the facts in the post.
You say America wouldn’t tolerate anything of the kind. On the contrary. It certainly isn’t an exact parallel, but it’s not totally different either. The U.S. supports Indian reservations, and has sought mutually beneficial ways to co-exist with them, granting them the rights to legalized gambling which generates substantial revenue for them.
You have a lot of nerve, claming that Russia and India are Muslim countries. Russia is at most 1/3rd Muslim, and India is only 17% Muslim. No doubt you consider America to be a Muslim country as well. You appear to be a living example of what filmmaker Pierre Rehov reported, that when a Muslim sets foot in a new land, he considers that land and anyone in it to now be Muslim. Here is a transcription:
> Audience Member: This is the only documentary on this
> subject I’ve seen that addresses what these people are
> thinking, being deprived of any kind of pleasure -
> economic, social or sexual. And I was wondering, since
> you don’t really present a solution and you don’t
> really have a hope at the end, what is your personal
> opinion about where this is going to be going in the
> future?
>
> Pierre Rehov: Tough question, and very hard to answer
> it too. I’m going to give you my honest opinion. I
> think we are on the edge of World War III. This is no
> longer between Israel and the Palestinians. This is
> between Islam and the West. What is happening in Israel
> is, if they win, it will be the first step. They’re
> never gonna stop there. There are Arabs who dream of
> going back into Spain, because in the Muslim mentality,
> once a Muslim has put his foot on the land, this land
> automatically must be Islamized. And it’s in their
> language. “Salam” doesn’t mean “peace,” like “shalom”
> means “peace” in Hebrew. “Salam” means, “you’ve been
> Islamized! You’re my brother! Salam, you are Muslim,
> like me!” And there are two things for a Muslim. There
> are “dar al-harb”, which is the land of fighting, and
> “dar al-Islam,” which is the land of peace. So,
> everything which is not dar al-Islam, must become dar
> al-Islam. And especially if they have conquested this
> in the past, like Israel, like Spain, they must get it
> back. Because if not it means that god, their god, is
> wrong, and this is not acceptable for them. My answer
> to that is, we are in 1938, and the real war is coming
> very, very soon. And we better push our governments to
> do the right thing.
In fact, as opposed to what you stated, the actual majority-Muslim nations have literally killed or driven out virtually all Jews. From Wikipedia:
> In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews
> (see table below) living in communities throughout the
> Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 7,000. In some
> Arab states, such as Libya (which was once around 3%
> Jewish), the Jewish community no longer exists; in
> other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.
Here are two questions for you:
1) Are you willing to say that a Muslim who blows up a train, plane, or bus in the name of Islam, does not go to Heaven, and does not get 72 virgins?
2) Do you want to see Sharia law imposed on the United States?
#6First I am not claiming that India and Russia is muslim country. What I am sayind is that India has the largest population of muslim compare to any other muslim country 17% turn into larger population than Indonasia. Same is true of Russia. Yes we do allow Red Indian to manage their life minus foreign affair and Military affair and printing of their own currency. I am sure Palsteine would allow some to Israel.
#7Thanks for the response, Shahid. I would appreciate it if you would answer my two questions:
1) Are you willing to say that a Muslim who blows up a train, plane, or bus in the name of Islam, does not go to Heaven, and does not get 72 virgins?
2) Do you want to see Sharia law imposed on the United States?
#8Do any one know what Shairah Law? I would even dare muslim to answer this question. Muslim do not believe in heaven and hell in physicall sense for muslim Heaven is when you are near god, and hell when you are away from god. 72 Virgin and an excat translation by Christain media smiply mean 72 names of God. Biggest Chapter in Quran is about Jesus. Most Sunni Muslim believe that Jesus is the Saviour. you have lot to learn about Muslim world my friend. You still do not know anything about Ismailies, Bhories, Alevi, and thousand of other denomination in Muslim world.
#9What you say about the Muslim notion of heaven would be news to all the people who are documented in Pierre Rehov’s film, Suicide Killers, saying that they attempted to do suicide bombings specifically because it was promised to them that they would go to heaven and receive 72 female virgins.
It’s very strange that you would ask if anyone knows what Sharia law is. Wikipedia has a long article about it here. Some of the features of Sharia law are curtailed freedom of speech, and curtailed freedom for women. Sharia law is so far from being unknown, that it is in fact practiced in many nations. From Wikipedia:
> Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain religious courts for all
> aspects of jurisprudence, and religious police assert
> social compliance. Laws derived from sharia are also
> applied in Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan. Some states in
> northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts. In
> practice the new Sharia courts in Nigeria have most
> often meant the re-introduction of harsh punishments
> without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence
> and testimony. The punishments include amputation of
> one/both hands for theft, stoning for adultery and
> apostasy.
Notice that there is no distinction between Sharia law and “religious courts” - in other words, the Koran is considered to be a basis for a system of laws, which is incompatible with the U.S. Constitution. It is important to bear in mind that Islam is not only a religion, but also, a political ideology, including a system of laws, which is incompatible with the U.S. Constitution. Muslims will be able to successfully assimilate into the U.S. once they agree that the in America, the laws of the Koran are replaced by the laws of the U.S. Constitution. That’s why it so important for Muslims, such as yourself, to say, publicly and in print, that they accept the U.S. Constitution and do not want to replace it with Sharia law.
Possibly you are the one who has to learn something about the Muslim world.
It sounds like you might possibly be a recent convert to Islam. You may not know what you’re getting yourself into.
#10Brand Name does not mean any thing there are courts in Pakistan which are called KKK. So what? Saudi Arbia is most hated country in muslim world. If we stopping supporting Saud family they would be over throw in a day. What you know is only through media you do not have first hand knoweldge of muslim world. Shariah Law changes from country to country and one written on wikipedia.com is only writers’ view. Which bascially mean it Saudi Arbia’s view. And did not we started with Isreal.
#11ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS
1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;
2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES “PALESTINIANS” IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;
3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;
Read More »
4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 A.D. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;
5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;
6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN;
7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM ; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;
8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM ; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA . IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA , WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM ;
9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;
10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;
11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;
12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CORELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL , A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY ;
13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE . THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL , AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;
14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL . ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;
15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;
16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL ; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL ;
17. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM . IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.
#12When you say Arab you mean Christian Arab or Jews Arab right.
Mayor of Bethlelhem is Christain Who support Hamas and is a Minister in Hamas Government. 90% of Arab Christain in Bethelhem voted for Hamas.
My Aunty is Jew and still live in Pakistan. Some Jew were froce to live Arab country after the creation of Isreal in 1948. Just as they (Jew) were force to leave Christain countries of Europe and where not given entry in USA.
Crusader Killed more Jew population in Jersulam and along the way than muslim.
Biggest Problem today Isreal Government faces is not People of Palenstie it is Isreali Muslim who in next 10 year would would be in majority to elecet a muslim Prime Minister.
20 Million Ismiali Muslim do not face Mecca or Jersulam when saying there prays. Alevi muslim in Turkey do not face Mecca or Jersulam when saying their Prayers. The Point is for majority of Muslim it just does not matter because God is every where.
It only Sunni Arab who have tradition to face Mecca when saying their Prayer.
Muslim goes for their Prayer to Mosque, Jamat Khana, Imam bara, Cemevi in Europe, and Church in Russia. and Mandir in India.
It is only sunni Arab who goes to Mosque.
99% of news that we see in western media is about Sunni Arab.
Their are 52 Muslim countries For example news of Countries like Azerbijan, Turkismentan, are never cover by Christain Media.
Fear bring hate and It is very easy to hate. What I am trying to say the war in Plastine is just a Political war. Nothing more nothing Less. And both side are to be blame equally.
#13I came across your site by coincidence today while conducting a search on the net. Being an Egyptian myself, I really enjoyed your looooong detailed answer to Samara on the “origins” of the Arab/Israeli conflict. Do you really think that there is an Egyptian who doesn’t know the real history of that conflict inside out? Do you forget that Israel is our neighbor and that Israel used to occupy a chunk of our country? Were your country occupied by a foreign force, would you not have studied your occupier inside out? Egypt may indeed suffer from propaganda..., but only on its two national channels. Unlike Americans however, Egyptians have access to world satellite channels and they are neither illegal nor censored. You can go to the poorest areas in Egypt..., but you shall find a satellite dish over most homes… even if 5 families have to pitch in together to buy a satellite dish which they shall share. Unlike US laws, there are no restrictions on the size of satellite dishes that we wish to install in Egypt. All this is to tell you that Egyptians know exactly what is happening in the Arab/Israeli conflict. They know it from direct experience with Israel and they know it from daily follow-up of various Arab (including Palestinian) and Israeli media. Egyptians and in fact the entire world is also very aware of the propaganda that is continuously being spread in the United States by mainstream Zionist controlled media in order to limit the awareness of the poor American tax-payer… so that Israel can continue cashing in and living at his/her expense. While American Zionist mainstream media is busy telling the American people about Imus, Anna Nicole, her illegitimate son and so on..., world media is usually covering more important items of the news such as the Arab/Israeli conflict or the Iraq war amongst other. The internet is indeed a very important source of information, but mostly for the deprived American people who have done away with their television sets and who are truly seeking to know what is really happening in this world and in the Middle East where Zionist propaganda has pushed them into wars they didn’t need to be involved in. Fortunately the internet today provides the American people with the information they seek and also uncovers the kind of propaganda you preach. As to your comments about the Palestinian people and your attempt to portray Israel as a poor little victim-state..., please.... spare us the self pity saga. Israel is in breach of over 150 UN resolutions. Israel is occupying Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian land which according to the UN and to International Law, it is supposed to have withdrawn from. Until today, Israel does not have a constitution… because Israel refuses to specify the geographic frontiers of itself as a country. Israel still has ambitions to occupy more of its neighbors lands. The United States offered Israel the Roadmap for Peace a few years ago. Israel refused it while the entire Arab world agreed to it. The entire Arab world just offered Israel another peace agreement which Nancy Pelosi even championed. Again, Israel refused while the entire Arab world agreed. Thank God for the internet indeed… because the Zionist world no longer has monopoly over the news and it can no longer keep misinforming and manipulating the American people the way it did prior to the Iraq war. I hope that my comment has helped you understand the Egyptian people a little better now… and I don’t think that Samara was asking you a question.
#14Princess, it’s noteworthy that you don’t contradict the facts presented in the article. Let me ask you this: do you believe that Muslims who who blow up Israeli cars, restaurants, planes, and buses, go to paradise?
#15Princess, by the very fact that you speak of the “Zionist cabal” as though it were an undisputed fact shows how much you really DON’T know about the conflict and how much you’ve been receptive and indoctrinated with Arab and Muslim propaganda that demonize the Jews and. Yes, you very much helped us understand the Egyptian people. But, not in the positive way you were hoping for.
By the way, can you just clarify why it was that Israel was “occupying” part of Egypt? I mean, did Israel just invade the Sinai for no reason other than imperialistic and colonialist and blood thirsty purposes? Can you please name all 150 Resolutions that Israel is supposedly in violation of? Oh, you’re referring to the same United Nations that won’t criticize any Arab or Muslim country, never mind. They’re totally objective. Please tell us what international law and UN Resolutions state that Israel is violating in their “occupation” of so called Syrian, Lebanese, and Palestinian land? What Lebanese land are you referring to? Oh, you mean Shebaa Farms, right? The same Shebaa Farms that your precious UN stated in a Resolution actually belongs to Syria, NOT Lebanon, and will be settled upon further peace deals between SYRIA and Israel.
Princess, I think your big satellite dish is pointed in the wrong direction because your facts seem to be more on the side of Never Neverland and pixie dust. That means you’re distorting recorded actual facts while pulling fairy tales out of rainbows with pots of gold at the end. Thank you for giving us such insight into Egypt. I’m glad I’m at peace with people like you.
-OC
#16In response to Vik’s comment:
In the interest of clarity, let me respond to your comment. I did not contradict or even attempt to discuss what you present as “facts” in your article or in your site because I believe that it is pointless to discuss real politics in a site that deliberately and consciously spreads Zionist propaganda in order to maintain and protect against all odds Israel’s disintegrating image as this poor little innocent country. You ask me a question which again is typically designed to attract pity for the Israelis… and this is my answer to it: 99.9% of the victims of the Arab/Israeli conflict are Palestinians and Arabs who are killed at the hands of Israelis with F-16, cluster bombs, Apaches and all sorts of illegal weapons. 99.9% of the thoughts in my mind… and of the sympathy in my heart consequently goes to those victims. A very very very small percentage of Israelis are killed in comparison to the amount of Palestinians that are killed on daily or rather hourly basis… so it is maybe I who should be asking you how you feel about the Jewish practice of slaughtering the goyim? Yet, I am not asking you..., because I already know your reply. If Israel wants to live in peace and security, all it has to do is abide by the United Nations resolutions and International Law and return all the occupied territories and retreat to the pre-67 borders. You know however as well as I do that Israel has no intention of doing so… and that Israel thus has chosen to reject peace in order to achieve further territorial ambitions. All of Israel’s flowery words about “peace” and “security” in the media don’t fool us in the Middle East or even the Israeli people who want peace. These cleverly delivered words are intended to placate the poor American souls who are basically being ripped off year after year to finance Israel’s illegitimate existence:)
In response to Olah chadasha:
Your comments make me smile… They are so Israeli:) You would have the world believe that Israel is this “peaceful little island of democracy” among those “nasty oger Arabs”:)
lol… I wonder why a peaceful little island that causes its inhabitants and neighbors no problem, would need to live inside a cage or rather a fortress?
#17Princess, you still haven’t contradicted any of the statements in the original post. You also have not answered my question about whether you believe that Muslims who blow up planes, trains, buses and restaurants go to paradise.
You ignore the fact that just recently Israel did exactly what you claim would bring peace. Israel gave away land in Gaza to the Palestinians, and the result was that that the Palestinians launched more rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza.
These actions of the Palestinians contradict your claim that if Israel gave away land there would be an end to attacks on it.
As you know, the wall was designed to put a stop to the Palestinians who were blowing up public places, and the wall has been very successful in accomplishing this goal. Yet you claim that the wall shows that Israel - and not those blowing up public places - is not “peaceful.”
I wonder why a peaceful little island that causes its inhabitants and neighbors no problem, would need to live inside a cage or rather a fortress?
In other words, you absurdly claim that Israel must not be peaceful, since its neighbors are always trying to kill Israeli citizens.
It appears that you support people who blow up public places. Do you also support people who send their own little children off to blow themselves up in public places?
#18Princess, thank you for proving my point.
Vik Rubenfeld,and Ola Shadasha, get a hold of yourselves. Methink you both need to find some real history books, written by real historians before you expand into the history of the Arab Israeli problem. You will find these books in English, French, even in Hebrew, since in your own country, there are many excellent and honest historians who do not need glasses to see beyond the delightful myth perpetrated by your Zionist discourse. To cite but a few, you can refer to Illan Pappe, Israel Shamir, Uri Avnery, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Haas, Jim Petras, Gilad Atzmon, Gideon Levy, and many others who write nothing that has not been fully researched. Believe me, that is a bit of sincere advice given to two Israelis by a sincere Egyptian. If you want to impart on yourselves and on your blog readers, honest information on the history of the Arab Israeli conflict, that is what you would do. But if you insist on giving the kind of fictional, albeit amusing and very self-satisfying interpretation of the history of that conflict, repeated ad nauseam by the Israeli propaganda machine, do go on reading what you seem to be reading now, comic books made in Israel, Israeli schoolbooks or touristic fairy tales about the land of milk and honey, and the men and women who have turned the lands of the Palestinians (Palestinians? What Pallestinians??) into green pastures and fields. At the same time, make sure that your IDF ( Defence , did you say???) and your peaceful settlers continue doing all the nice things they are so good at. And, oh yes, watch Hollywood films with the invariable Arab terrorist killing innocent Israelis and blowing himself up. Somewhere in your discourse, please don’t forget to mention your favourite argument of the 72 virgins waiting for the bombers in Paradise, but be sure to add in what fraudulent source you unearthed this invaluable gem of information . I am sure you will have many happy readers, but let me tell you, to quote a wise man: “You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time”.
#20Nefer:
-- You haven’t yet contradicted any statement in the article on which you are commenting.
-- You misquoted Lincoln, which is odd in a comment boasting about your scholarship.
-- You say that an argument about 72 virgins is based on a “fraudulent source.” But if you take a look at Rehov’s documentary film, ”Suicide Killers,” you can see many failed suicide killers saying in their own words that they attempted the killings in order to get to paradise and get the 72 virgins - and you can see people planning to do suicide killings, saying they are doing so for precisely the same reason.
Let me ask you a question: do you approve of Muslims who blow up planes, trains, buses and restaurants in the name of Islam?
#21Nefer, you quote the likes of Ilan Pappe and Normal Finkelstein as “historians” that I should read. You have no idea what I read, first all all. Second of all, I’ve read them, and their books are ripe with factual and historical errors. Me thinks you should learn a little bit about how to research historical data before you lecture any-one else on how to do so.
-OC
#22Vik, do you usually document your statements with words uttered in a film by naive young men who are going to meet their maker, and take their words with any amount of reliability??????? I shudder to think of the veracity of whatever else you cite. By the way, I was not at all intending to discuss an article which is so obviously a piece of lousy propaganda. I was talking to you guys in general. I thought I might put some sense into you!! As for you, Ola, I hate to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about when you just dismiss Pappe and Finkelstein as historians. I have a good idea for you, Ola. Why don’t you write a book yourself to enlighten us with your knowledge? You can then send a copy to Pappe and Finkelstein, each with your autograph. I am sure they will greatly appreciate that gesture of solidarity.
No, I don’t believe anyone should blow up people, homes,in the name of anything at all. Do you guys believe that Israelis who keep doing this now, yesterday, today, tomorrow should do it? Till when? They do it far more efficiently and frequently than the Palestinians, as everyone knows. And they do it with far better weapons, including chemical ones (Haaretz)in the name of Zionism? Why are you asking me that stupid question?
Tsk, tsk,tsk, I thought you guys would come up with a far more devastating critique of my modest attempt!! Nefer
#23Vik, do you usually document your statements with words uttered in a film by naive young men who are going to meet their maker, and take their words with any amount of reliability???????
The statement I made is that Muslims blow up public places out of a belief that they are going to get 72 virgins. The statement is documented by the documentary I cited, and you don’t appear to have any doubts that that statement is correct.
By the way, I was not at all intending to discuss an article which is so obviously a piece of lousy propaganda. I was talking to you guys in general.
You have yet to contradict a single statement made in the article.
Do you guys believe that Israelis who keep doing this now, yesterday, today, tomorrow should do it?
Given that Israel is under constant attack from suicide killers, Israel has an absolute obligation to fight back and defend itself. As the article points out - and as you have not been able to contradict - Israel was founded peacefully and did not drive Arabs from their homes.
Nefer, so far you are all talk. It is up to you to attempt to provide documentation that contradicts the article; if you can’t, then that shows that you are mistaken.
#24Nefer, name me each Pappe and Finkelstein you have read, please. It’s obvious you have not read any of their books to state that they are historians with impeccable objectivity and factual analysis.
-OC
#25If you want to look for the source of trouble in the Middle East, look no further than the “holy book” that you may hold somewhere in your house. And it doesn’t really matter which book it is. Zionism has proved to be a false Messiah for the Jews and an injustice to the Arabs. From the beginning, Herzl was wrong or lied when he told you that a land without a people needs a people without a land. And, if Palestine actually had been uninhabited, it still has to be said that Jews had no business seeking Messianic or Biblical ghettoes. Those who propose this are deluding the Jews and oppressing and robbing the Arabs, and while they may well bring on Armageddon (as some of them openly desire to do) they will of course fail to bring on the coming of the Messiah, let alone the “second” such coming in which their even more moronic Christian fundamentalist friends affect to believe.
Mistaken as it is as an ethno-nationalist quasi-religious ideology, Zionism may have entirely failed to prove itself justifiable or sustainable, but nonetheless has founded a sort of democratic state which isn’t any worse in its practice than many others with equally dubious origins. And we are of course now faced with Islamic nihilists who oppose any Jewish presence in Palestine at all, and who act accordingly.
Now the struggle is for Enlightenment values, in which all religious fundamentalists are actual or potential traitors. The Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement preceded the Palestine Mandate, and planned for a disastrous partition of the region. If you give the most cursory attention to the writings of Herzl and Nordau and other founders of the Zionist movement, or if you read the memoirs of Yitzhak Rabin closer to our own day, you will notice at once that they knew that a confrontation with the Arab inhabitants of Palestine was unavoidable. This was because they wanted their land, and wanted it without its inhabitants. The historic mistake - even if we agree that there was no ethical error involved - was the assumption that in time the Arabs would simply get used to this expropriation. To describe this is a mistake is of course a colossal.
The theft of land continues to this moment in the specific as well as the general sense: a farmer whose great-grandfather worked the same olive grove can be evicted without notice to make room for a settlement or a road or a wall, and told that such a flagrant confiscation is justifiable because he is not a Jew. This is a scandal, and its roots are inscribed in Israeli law, and can never be justified. The only actual justification offered is that god awarded the land to one tribe a good many years ago, and of course this appalling racist and messianic delusion only makes a terrible situation even worse.
I might add that this program of colonization was well under way before there were any suicide bombers, and was ruthlessly continued during the unarmed intifadah of the 1980s, as it was during every single day of the Oslo negotiations. International law explicitly forbids interference with the demography and owne
Well said, but I’m guessing that wasn’t the response he was looking for