| September 2010 | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| S | M | T | W | T | F | S |
| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | |||
| 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 |
| 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 |
| 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 |
| 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | ||
One of the great things about blogging is, it enables conversations between people from all over the world. Last night, in response to a post regarding Islam, this comment came in from Eagle in Pakistan:
There is not any religion in the world which teaches violence. All religions give some way or path to its follower. This concept about Islam is also wrong that it favours violance. It teaches that to kill a man is like killing a whole mankind.
There is need to respect all religions. The violance in the world is due to us, not due to religions.
Religion is an important part of life. We cant ignore it.
everyone in the world should try for peace and humanity on individual level. We should not wait for some revolution at country level or world level. We need to change ourselves. Look beside you, dont ignore poors which are near by you, speak well to your servents, be honest in your duties, try for the betterment of yourself and the people around you, stick to a path which u think is right..
Be a good man, everything in the world will be alright.
Welcome to the site, Eagle. I'm glad to hear that this is your view of Islam. However, when you read the Koran, you may find something different from the view you support. For example, let's take the verse you refer to:
It teaches that to kill a man is like killing a whole mankind.
Here's the verse from the Koran (5:32):
For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
So this verse, is as much a justification for killing your fellow men, as it is a call not to do so. Unfortunately, it says that you can kill your fellow men for "corruption in the earth."
Now, what could that be? The next verse talks about it. Here's the very next verse:
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
So "corruption in the earth"/"corruption in the land" is made by anyone who makes "war upon Allah," and such people are to be "killed or crucified."
Islam declares war on everybody who isn't a Muslim. From About.com:
A crucial distinction made in Islamic theology is that between dar al-harb and dar al-islam. To put it simply, dar al-harb (territory of war or chaos) is the name for the regions where Islam does not dominate, where divine will is not observed, and therefore where continuing strife is the norm. By contrast, dar al-islam (territory of peace) is the name for those territories where Islam does dominate, where submission to God is observed, and where peace and tranquility reign.
So, Islam declares war on anybody who isn't a Muslim. Anyone who is, as a result, at war with Islam, is making "corruption in the Earth," and is to be "killed or crucified."
The result is that the part you quoted, from the verse, only applies to Muslims. It doesn't apply to non-Muslims.
Just in case anyone might think that Islam looks kindly on those of other faiths in any situation, a few verses later (5:36 and 5:37), the Koran says:
As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.
They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.
Taken with the preceding verses, it appears that the Koran is saying that Muslims cannot co-exist with others.
This does not look very much like a "religion of peace."
Your misfortune, is that if you tell your kids that the Koran is the word of Allah, some of them are likely to read it and come to the conclusion that, according to the Koran, Allah says to kill non-Muslims. And they're going to be in grave danger of wasting their lives by devoting themselves to racism, violence, and hatred.
It appears that the only way Muslims are going to be able to co-exist peacefully with others - which you are good enough to say is your goal - is to explicitly and publicly repudiate these verses - and other similar ones - from the Koran. A Muslim thinker from Sudan has shown a philosophical basis on which this can be done. As discussed by Daniel Pipes:
...note the original thinking of the Sudanese theologian Mahmud Muhammad Taha (1909-85). Taha built his interpretation on the conventional division of the Koran into two. The initial verses came down when Muhammad was a powerless prophet living in Mecca, and tend to be cosmological. Later verses came down when Muhammad was the ruler of Medina, and include many specific rulings. These commands eventually served as the basis for the Shari'a, or Islamic law.
Taha argued that specific Koranic rulings applied only to Medina, not to other times and places. He hoped modern-day Muslims would set these aside and live by the general principles delivered at Mecca. Were Taha's ideas accepted, most of the Shari'a would disappear, including outdated provisions concerning warfare, theft, and women. Muslims could then more readily modernize.
Eagle, would you consider the approach suggested by Taha, so as to save your children from the danger of wasting their lives by devoting themselves to racism, violence, and hatred?
#2Welcome to the site, Uberkoen, and thanks for the post. I've looked at your blog, and I see that you are among the many, many good people in Pakistan who want to put an end to terrorism. I also see that you consistently offer interpretations of the Koran that view it as being opposed to hatred and violence. This is a very good thing.
You are helping to lead the way, to show Muslims how to interpret the Koran, so as to be able to participate in the modern world, peacefully and successfully.
We both agree that there is a huge problem in Islam, with people interpreting the Koran to justify violence. To take one example, you point out on your site, a verse that is often used by Muslims, as you say, "to justify their violence."
There has been a lot of criticism of verse 29 of Surah At-Tauba. People who have read believe Islam justifies terrorism and promotes violence but I assure you this is not the case. Unfortunately most people don't look into the details and misinterpret this verse some use it to criticize Islam others use it to justify their violence.
Let's discuss the points you make in your post here. First of all, it appears that the vast majority of Muslim imams agree with my interpretation of the Koran:
- British TV exposed the hate-filled preachings of the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham, England.
- The Society of Americans for National Existence exposed similar events at mosques in the U.S.
- Religious, government, and media leaders in Islamic nations, routinely call for murder to be done in the name of Islam:
Egyptian Cleric Hazem Sallah Abu Isma'il on the Rewards of the Martyr
Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi Justifies the Killing of Israeli Women and Children in Suicide Operations
The fact that so many Islamic leaders agree with my view of the Koran, rather than yours, shows the danger that your children will be in, when they read the Koran for themselves. They may interpret it the way so many Islamic leaders today do, and fall into the grave danger of wasting their lives on racism, violence, and hatred.
This makes my point that "the only way Muslims are going to be able to co-exist peacefully with others - which you are good enough to say is your goal - is to explicitly and publicly repudiate these verses - and other similar ones - from the Koran," perhaps along the lines of the approach taken by Taha, as I noted in the article.
[Continued in next comment]
#3[Continued from previous comment]
A few additional points:
You note that "Your conclusion that Islam declares war against anyone who isn’t a Muslim is incorrect." However, this isn't only my conclusion; it is the conclusion of about.com.
You linked to a list of the violent verses in the Bible. However, you will note that few if any of them tell believers to make war on and kill all non-believers. As the quotes above from just sura 5 show, much of the Koran appears to tell Muslims to hate, make war on, and kill non-Muslims.
You note that "Verse 5:32 of the Quran is on capital punishment." I read sura 5 of the Koran up to 5:32 and beyond, and it appears to make no reference to capital punishment. On the contrary, it's mostly about promising hell and death to non-Muslims. Here are verses from sura 5, starting with 5:09:
Allah hath promised those who believe and do good works: Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward.
And they who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are rightful owners of hell.
... Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, [that is, pay a dhimmi tax as second-class citiizens] and believe in My messengers and support them [that is, convert to Islam], and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.
And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.
And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.
...They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.
[And, as quoted in the article:]
... The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
...As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.
They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.
The Koran appears to declare war on non-Muslims. It's very hard to find any other interpretation. This is no doubt why about 25% of the Muslim children in the U.S., and 35% in England, are far more radical than their parents: they read the Koran and come to the conclusion that their parents aren't following it. As soon as a Muslim tells his (or her) children that the Koran is the word of Allah, he is putting them in grave danger. It appears that the only way out of this for Muslims is to follow the work of Taha and say that all these hate-filled passages applied only to the time and place when they were written, and do not apply today -- which is, come to think of it, not that different from the approach you do take.
The hate-filled verses of the Koran must not merely be footnoted with detailed arguments explaining why they aren't what they seem to most readers to be - such detailed explanations will never be accepted by the masses.
Those verses must be explicitly and publicly repudiated, as applying only to the long-ago time and place in which they were written.
#4I have one question, is it Quran or Koran?
#5i have a real dilema.. The old testament was a bad example to be using. It was a time full of sin. The old testament was the precursor for the coming of Christ.
So basically, God created the world and it was a mess.
To fix this problem, God sent Jesus down from heaven to fix the mess up.. abit like Bruce willis on die hard... except Bruce dies. Jesus wasnt so lucky.
#6Muslims wake up, all is under allah (God). Being of another faith or race is not grounds for killing. Cristians at least preach forgivenss and non-judgement however not all practice these, which is why they believe Jesus is more than a profit.
I always think of the old Joke - a Christian and an Athiest are debating when the Chistian say's lets end this. If we Christians are wrong we have worshipped God wrong, but at least belived in him, in short we've acted foolish.
If non-Christians are wrong there will literally be HELL TO PAY!!
#7Killing, War, Separateness and murderous land conquering Ends with Light; the knowledge of AL / YHWH / YahúWahWar, as used in the sacred text’s, refers to: --drawing together one’s strength-- to combat that which is divisive within each of us and that which limit’s our illumi nation. War in the scripture's or ancient writing’s was never ever intended to convey the killing’s of another human being or to vio late the right’s of another.When we read in the Koran,Torah,Bible, that God told Moses to tell the people to go into the new land and kill and murder and annihilate and destroy all babies, children, women, boys and girls and men, we have neither feel ings of compassion or heart We believed those old scrip ture writings because our grand parents and leaders bought into what men wrote. ancient script, did not have those words in them. The Most High never ever told Moses to masacre babies, children, women, boys and girls and men. "The Darkness of the “ ButcherChronicles” The Most High did not say these words to Moses nor to King David = WAR, DEATH,HATRED and Genocide: { murder of entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do thisi So the LORD our God deliver ed into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left 23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed---By butcher-ing defenseless babies, children, women, boys and girls by WAR, DEATH, HATRED and Genocide: { murder of entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this-----????????????King David 2 ¶ A 16 thrust his sword in his fellow's side; First Book of Samuel Otherwise Called, The First Book of the Kings 17 47 And all this as sembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: 51 Therefore David slew him, and cut off his head therewith. Blatant lies that were perpetuated upon humankind - Distortions written by the pen of humans - False! God did not tell Moses to instruct the people to go into the new land and kill, murder, annihilate, butcher and destroy by genocide; all babies, children, women, boys and girls andmen
#8How does one get a good text to be received by yousssssssss guysssssss ?
#9sending less, hope this comes out - Love Your Site---how do ya make fonts smaller? "The Darkness of the “ Butcher Chronicles” Blatant lies that were perpetuated upon humankind - Distortions written by the pen of humans - False!= God did not tell Moses to instruct the people to go into the new land and kill, murder, annihilate, butcher and destroy by genocide; all babies, children, women, boys and girls and men-The simplicity of solving the horrendous problems of our planet is almost unbelievable, but true. With 3 basic moves! 1. Stop believing that the Koran, Bible and Torah is the infallible word of the Most High 2. Believe in Unity 3. Our bodies are the lands of the Most High For humankind, there are three {3} major decisions that have to be made and execut ed: War in the scripture's or ancient writing's was never intended to convey the killing's of another human being or to violate the right’s of another. Showing Unity! We Are One! Enhancing Peace, through the knowledge that our bodies is the LAND THAT THE TORAH SPEAKS OF. NOT DIRT! The factions of the religions of the world have taught us how to conduct the most bitter wars for the sake of their God. They war one with another over the lands of this world and its wealth. Our LAND dilemma has been presented in the synagogue, showing that there is no historical claim for the land that is called Israel today -whose marking’s and places have been set of late by Constantine's mother. We have no future in the world of corruption. Most of the prophecy of the religious world is to project the mind and its eyes into a void, which is based on misreading the writings. The Land of YishARAL is not limited to places marked out by arbitrary / boundaries on this sphere. The States of YishARAL include all spheres and realms of Light. The reading of the Torah has been imposed upon by thoughts of this world and thus restricted by the impositions of carnality. Because of the mis-translations of Hebrew, we have no Unity - We have constant war, killing, fighting, murders, butchering and genocide Compiled Author Joe ‘Sarge’ Kinney, Sr http://www.bethashem.org
#10Joe, please repost, using FireFox or Internet Explorer, and the comment system's rich text editor.
#11Killing, War, Separateness and murderous land conquering Ends with Light; the knowledge of AL / YHWH / YahúWah
War, as used in the sacred text’s, refers to:--drawing together one’s strength-- to combat that which is divisive within each of us and that which limit’s our illumination. War in the scripture's or ancient writing’s was never ever intended to convey the killing’s of another human being or to violate the right’s of another. And as we are all One Family; One Race of Human Being’s, to war against another person would violate our very basis of existence and the face’s of our Unity.
When we read in the Koran, Torah, Bible, that God told Moses to tell the people to go into the new land and kill and murder and annihilate and destroy all babies, children, women, boys and girls and men, we have neither feelings of compassion or heart {If you ever really thought about it}. We believed those old scripture writings because our grand parents and leaders bought into what men wrote.
But the ancient writings, the ancient text, the ancient script, did not have those words in them. The Most High never ever told Moses to masacre babies, children, women, boys and girls and men. And we should be ashamed of ourselves for believing such fairy tales by ignorant men who admitted that they never ever really understood the ancient Torah writings. So they interpreted all scripture according to how they felt, how they wanted you to feel and deal with other people. They wrote in darkness and their writings are of darkness.
The Darkness of the “ Butcher Chronicles” The Most High did not say these words to Moses nor to King David = WAR, DEATH, HATRED and Genocide: { murder of entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this-----
Blatant lies that were perpetuated upon humankind - Distortions written by the pen of humans - False!
#12Joe, please repost, using FireFox or Internet Explorer, and
the comment system’s rich text editor.
We tried, but cannot use the above.
Hey, I am using detailed fonts and
IT ALMOST CAME OUT, OK.
Thanks for the acknowledgement
Shalom
Ashkol ben Aphrayim Kinney
#13“Descent Into Chaos”: Ahmed Rashid on How the US Aid to “War on Terror” Ally Pakistan is Aiding the Taliban - explains how the US ally Pakistan has armed and financed the Taliban after the US invasion of Afghanistan; how the CIA pays Pakistan to arrest al-Qaeda operatives, but Pakistan uses the money to fund the Taliban resurgence in northwest Pakistan; and how the US and NATO’s failure to deal with Afghan civil society has led directly to the huge rise of the opium trade that funds the Taliban
The simplicity of solving the horrendous problems of our planet is almost unbelievable, but true. With 3 basic moves! 1. Stop believing that the Koran, Bible and Torah is the infallible word of the Most High 2. Believe in Unity 3. Our bodies are the lands of the Most High
#14I have heard it said that Muslims need to publicly repudiate certain passages of the Koran. I find a serious problem with that, I shall explain why.
I am a Christian, I believe in the Greek phrase "Theo Pneustos" literally translated as God Breathed, meaning that the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant truth revealed by God, as if he breathed life into them.
That being said, if someone believes that there is a God, Muslim or Christian, I think that they need to believe wholly in the scripture that they have, that it is divine revelation from God. If you believe God is real, you cannot piecemeal his word to us, because then you take it out of God's hands and let it up to men to decide what should be in there, and men will change it to fit their needs.
If we ask Muslims to repudiate parts of the Koran, we are in effect asking them to repudiate the validity of the entire Koran. I for one have read large parts of the Koran, and have found serious inconsistencies and problems, whereas in the same studies of the Canon (protestant Bible) I have found consistency and able to properly defend issues that others have brought up.
OK
Now, with all that out of the way, I have a question. For those Muslims who claim that folks are incorrectly saying that Islam is not a religion of peace:
Why is it that Islam is the only religion that a fair amount of the population feel it is ok for suicide bombings, attacks of non-military civilians (9/11) and similar behaviour?
Why is it that NO OTHER RELIGION on earth has followers that condone such behaviour? As far as I know, I have never heard of a Hindu, Christian, Shinto, Buddhist, Mormon, Sikhism, Bahai, Judiasm, Scientology, or any other religion that produces this kind of militant individuals that see it as their duty to commit such acts.
I am not saying every Muslim is a militant or even believes like that. What I am saying is that Islam is a religion that if taken by the reader of the Koran as literal and truthful, that is can easily be used to directly support such behaviour as killing and murder.
I have heard the argument from some Islamic believers that the Bible supports violent actions, which is untrue when examined in context and usually referring to the time period of the Old Testament.
I have however never seen nor heard of a Christian (protestant or catholic) suicide bomber or terrorist who attacks innocents in the name of their religion.
So, I guess the short question for Islamic believers to answer:
Explain how if Islam is a religion of peace, how is it that it is producing some followers who believe that terrorism and the murder are ok and supported by their religion, where other religions are not producing the like?
#15Other religions do produce Evil. Most! Have you not noticed the pro-graming on Free Speach TV? Have you not evaluated all of the TV programing for our children and grand children.Kill Kill Kill. Are the American leaders Christians and Jews who spend all of our monies on military supplies to con-duct war? The boys in the mob go to mass every morning.
There are good people and bad people in all realms of existence. Education to the children about PEACE AND UNITY for the next 15 years will bring about exposure concerning the bad people. Americans and the rest of the world need to understand this about Islam:
As the former Editor of BHM/Bayit HaSham Midrash Bora Finton, in his infinite wisdom said; "Get smug with Eloha at your own risk:" YHWH AL ALLAH God. Bora Finton, fluent in Aramaic and the Govri/Hebrew language’s reminds all who are against the Muslim's: Those who do not really understand them that; “By what do we know that the Hebrew spelling for --whatever “Allah” is, in Arabic is alef-lamed-he?” Nor yet further why the definition choice meaning "Curse" is so indicated---and not Elah, YHWH AL ALLAH God, (Especially given Arabic usage). Mr. Finton, is a very gentle man from West Virginia, he raises the goat. “I don't want to wrestle here, with it all (argument of whether or not you and I pray to the same YHWH AL ALLAH God or not), because the line of reasoning presented and offered by challenger’s, take’s me/us into dualism, and not into the mind of unification beheld in the agency of the measurement of Yah, Messiah, Yahushúo, Jesus.” Further into his statement, Mr. Finton say’s, “With English as my only context, I would render "Allah" into Hebrew as ayin/lamed/ha, meaning "The Highest" and understood as a title and not as a name.” This is the manner in which Allah is used---in the Muslim world, Bora say's.
The greater Muslim World is not anyone's enemy. The people in the Islamic World are not the government of their nation, nor the men who want death and destruction, who lead. Same with Israel, the people’s of Israel are not the same as the men who lead that country [with $financial aid from America], in death and hate, just like American’s are not the USA government, either. They/we should be, but only a fool would believe that we are THAT WAY now. In our corrupt democracy, the bureaucrat’s do as they please with their Police State. In a Republic….the people {should} rule. Yes, there is much freedom on the globe, for some, but it's restricted. We need liberty! Liberty is unrestricted! No one on this planet has Liberty. Nay! None! Especially with out the Unity of us all being with YHWH ALLAH GOD. And Our Muslim brother's and sister’s and their children pray to the Heavenly host the same way the rest of us do; with love hope respect and tenderness. There will almost always be the darkness among us. But shedding Pure Teachings around will remove darkness, eventually.
‘And Islam acknowledges YHWH as The Name of AL.’ They simply do not speak AL/YHWH YahúWah aloud. They the Muslim's, say Allah for very same reason's the Jew’s say HaSham-God; ‘Reverence for the Name.’Bora say’s further; Christianity evades the difficulty of addressing HaSham by doing all thing's in the Name of HaSham's projection into the microcosm, namely, the one called Yahushúo/Jesus. ‘And in Christianity the mortal name Y'Shua/Jesus became sobriquet [ nickname: an un- official name especially a humorous one], for HaSham in the same spirit and manner.’ Bora further state's that, ‘There's both money and thunder in the perception’s of dualism's permuta tion’s and as with the mother, the daughter. Let's leave it at that for now and go on with life.’ For that's the lesson we must have learned by the time's of turning (Is 30).Mr. Finton say’s, We are to wait upon YHWH/AL/ALLAH/GOD The Unified One, to demonstrate unto us the victory (He) has foreseen. He has asked us to watch! We do not err when we share the thought’s of our watching, but there is boastfulness in contention that war’s against mercies of AL/YHWH Allah/God; 'The Name of Covenant.' We ought rather, to celebrate the Path to Resolution, which is our Unity with the god head in AL / YHWH/ ALLAH / God by the agency of Yahushúo/Jesus. ‘Just my thought's, I'll just be still for now.’ Bora say's, ‘ For I know that AL / YHWH is ALLAH also.’
#16Ishmael, YishmogAl to understand/hear AL/God; a seed/concept of Abraham given unto communicate the order of concepts via instruction/guidance to be understood via visible and audible vibrations; process to ignite the waters via understanding the concepts of order/guidance (as did ALiyáhu ignited the waters on the sacrifice on Mt. Carmel); the bridge between a Name and the Earth.
Isaac, Yetschaq laughter; expression of release, delight--joy of wonderment that follows circumcision of Avraham and YishmogAL / Ishmael; the delight in beholding Teúwrah/Torah and the world with unveiled eyes; state of joy as one abides upon the base of Wisdom and within the boughs of Knowledge whereby one fills their houses with Knowledge; the state of abiding beneath a hanging vine; having the joy/laughter of Understanding, state of immortal occupancy of the lands
In the account of Yahushúo, which depicts the supraconsciousness, the infant is taken into Metsryim Egypt by Yúwsphah/Joseph. Going into Egypt Metsryim conveys that through the House of Yúwsphah—Aparryim and Meneshah we are taken into a body. The same is the story of Yúwsphah taking all of the Twelve into Metsryim, whereby the Twelve came into a dwelling state [SYM/Ex 1:1]. To state that we are taken into Metsryim/ Egypt, indicates that the Offspring are obtained through definitions, for apart from such defining process we remain in the sea of Ayshshur/Asher , yet to branch forth the Mind. Out of Metsryim we are called to be the Offspring of the Most High, for who can appear before the Most High until they have made the Body in which they appear? In acquiring defined states we bear the Offspring of Queens Bayinah and Chakmah from our loins, even as a tree acquires a network of branches to bear its fruit. The same account is told in Avrehhem/Abraham, who goes into Metsryim/Egypt to obtain a body for the Offspring of Wisdom. The body of Abraham Avrehhem is Hagar, gifted from Pharaoh though which the body of YishmogAL /Ishmael is for the appearance of Yetschaq/Isaac, whereas the Twelve Princes of YishmogAL / Ishmael - the Twelve Princes of YishmogAL are for the Seed of Avrehhem/Abraham that forms, and then appears in Yaoquv/Jacob. These are amongst the Aúwvim /Fathers and their states of residing in the Lands of Metsryim / Egypt.
AL Jacob, Yaoquv [SMB/Gen 35:1], the 9:9 ratio is in accordance with the Houses of Knowledge which are 36/9; a supplanter: to grasp the heel; lit: the hand that follows through; to receive a reward; depicts the spiritual Mind of YisharAL, as it wrestles for mastery of Esau / mirroring of mind who brings the Seed of Yetschaq/Isaac into an outer form of man(compare Yahúdah/Jude 8-9): to supplant the flesh and overthrow waywardness and rebellion to Unity; as the twin of Esau, Yaoquv supplants to overthrow the underlying principle of the mirroring twin, Esau; Yaoquv is the Nature of Mind to comprehend all within itself whereby the Mind is able to bring forth the twelve branches of Thought; Esau is the mirroring of mind whereby the mind bonds with the offspring of Cham for manifestation; the mirroring of Yaoquv through Esau is the basis for the two tablets / sides of mind, the mind mirroring itself is the means of Reúwch/Spirit to enter into manifestation as maShayh/Moses enters into Bayit Pharaoh whereby the Name enters into manifestation; the mind of Yaoquv comprehends itself for expansions into Names/heavenly realms and into transformation modes/earthly realms of YishARAL; the nature of Name projects itself through unions with the order of expression: Avraham establishes bonds with Chayit and unites with Hagar of the House of Pharaoh to bring the Concepts of Name into a foundation for transformation /unfold ment; Yetschaq/Isaac establishes the understandings / wells of Avraham and is acknowledge by the offspring of Mitsraim/Egypt—the Philistim, to rightfully dwell in the land; Esau—the mirror of Yaoquv unites with the offspring of Chayit, the Chitti, and Egypt—the daughter of YishmogAL/Ishmael, to bring the House of YisharAL into the lands to sojourn until they surrender to the Fiery Mind of Yaoquv [OvadYah/Obadiah 17-19]. YHWH will not reject the offspring of Yaoquv but will tend the young on behalf of the founding Fathers; Yaoquv is mind achieving/the eternal and conscious Oyin abode of unity house; one who acquires understanding/Oyin of the Kingdom in all manifestations; the giving of understanding to abide/dwell in unified forms; to supplant a separate consciousness of (latent) body form. Mastery over and making peace with the latent forms begets YishARAL / the active manifestation of the twelve light thought categories of soul.
#17The only way to heaven is...."Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32-33
#18This is for who ever said that the bible doesnt dam someone to hell for not believing there faith read 21:8 you are spreading hate to a religion that you know nothing about in which you read bits of the Qur'an not koran and make a fool of your self but it is ok for you have no knowledge did you read the whole book? No because if you did you would see that it says christians jews sabians to whomever those who believe in on god and the day of judgment those who live there lives on the right path shall have no fear but you didnt read the whole book just like uberkoen said you should visit that website and read all of the violence in the book of the bible but you dont see muslims bringing that up or throwing it in the face of chrisians it is christians who bring up this nonsense in which it is really funny because you dont understand the concepts of this religion so the only thing you can do is say that it is a religion of hate in which your same prophets are in there in which you are saying that most of basis of your religion you are turning your back on. You think you know in which you do not i am an american muslim in which have been to chruches and been to suday services and can say that the religion is spoke to make you feel scared and that if you were to die tonight would you go to heaven and have heard from the pastors mouth that all muslims have perverted thoughts and minds in which i have never heard that come out of an anyone that was a muslim. That is so unbelievable that i walked out didnt say a word just walked out. And its not just him its alot of people who are misled and it says that in the Qur'an that these people will try to mislead you and throw lies in to your face in order to drive you to thinking that muslims are bad people it is you who is false and misled but you are misled brother i can show you the light and allah can show you the light for it is him who is creator of all and only him can save you i have never felt hate nor have anyone i ever have known that was a muslim have hated a chrisians it is you who has a problem not us
salaam
#19Buke, do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a public place, such as a bus, train, plane, or restaurant, does not go to paradise?
#20they are a minor few....the ones ur suggesting blow themselves up etc.......it doesnt mean all muslims are taught to blow themselves up, infact suicide is forbidden, one who commits suicide goes straight to hell, so those, as i said, u mentioned who kill supposedly in the name of Allah, dont even understand their religion, they are what i (and many others) call extremists, they think they have the right to do what they want to non-muslims becuase they're uneducated, and for you to point your finger at all muslims and claim tht islam teaches these things, then you my friend must do a bit more reading, then come back and tell me islam is trying to teach me to kill myself.
#21Chop-s, do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, or other public place, killing non-Muslims in the name of Allah, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?
If you do not agree, it is because you know perfectly well that Islam says that a Muslim who dies killing non-Muslims is rewarded for it by being sent to paradise. From the Hadith (the sayings and doings of Mohammed, which are considered holy books in Islam), Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35, on the USC Muslim Student Association web site:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."
If, as you seem to imply, you are knowledgeable about Islam, then when you claim that Islam forbids suicide, you are doing Dawa, which is the Islamic term for spreading disinformation about Islam in order to fool non-Muslims into accepting it.
Chop-s, would you be punished if you were seen reading the Bible? If you have not yet done so, I recommend that you get ahold of a Bible and have a look at it. You may be amazed to find that the true beauty of life is contained in it. Life is meant to be joyous, beautiful, and full of good deeds to all people around us, regardless of their religion. You would not be the first - see this link. You can find the Bible online here.
#22The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."
All the Holy battles that were fought in the past, were in some way started by the non-muslims, that is when we are obliged to fight. If, for example, a non-muslim country is trying to inflict war on a muslim country, then Allah allows (or commands) us to fight back. He who dies trying to protect himself, his family, his land etc, will die a martyr, BUT ONLY WHEN A NON-MUSLIM BEGINS THE FIGHT, but it is not our duty or right to start war or conflict with non-muslims. We are taught to live with everybody, be them muslim or not, in peace. I emphasize, only when a non-muslim begins, we must fight back, and when they cease we too should stop.
#23
BTP, you are the same poster as Chop-s, as shown by your IP address.
Please answer the question: Do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, or other public place, killing non-Muslims in the name of Allah, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?
#24yes; i am the same poster, i'm not trying to fool you, they're just song titles if you must know.
I find your question kind of confusing when using the negative form, thus i shall answer it in full. I do not believe any muslim who blows up a bus, train station or other public place, killing non-muslims in the name of Allah is rewarded by being sent to paradise. As I said, it's not our duty to judge people and to kill innocent people when they have done nothing wrong.
#25Very good. Are you aware of a) the historical facts, b) the statements in the Koran, and c) the actions of Mohammed as described in the holy books of Islam, that show that your statement that all of Islam's battles were started by non-Muslims, is an incorrect statement?
For some of the historical facts, see this link.
For some of the statements in the Koran, see this link.
For some of the actions from the life of Mohammed, see these Hadith:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." Bukhari 1.2.25
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" Bukhari 4.52.196
This notion that Islam is peaceful toward non-Muslims, when its holy books plainly state the reverse, and when Imams preach hatred daily, is ridiculous.
Islam has been around for 1400 years. Today's average Muslim has maybe 100 lines of Qur'an memorized, whereas the Muslims of the past had the entire book down.
And yet, for all those Islamically knowledgeable Muslims - who were in charge of an empire for two centuries - there was no terrorism.
The Qur'an does not command Muslims to kill all non-Muslims. If so, why didn't the Muslims of the past listen and kill everyone else? They had better reason to know exactly what was in the Qur'an, and were more devout... so why didn't they kill all non-Muslims? It makes no sense.
Unless you realize that Muslim terrorism today is politically based. Its leaders only use religion as a vehicle for recruitment and motivation. It's easier to say "God commands this" and "if you don't participate, you're going to hell" than to say "we should all want the West to stop meddling and you must fight with us."
Today's Muslims don't denounce terrorism? http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_2/
As for other non-Muslim terrorists:
Tamil Tigers: http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/srilanka/thestory.html
"They are one of the world's most notorious terrorist groups. In their unrelenting drive for a separate homeland on the island, the Tigers have carried out more suicide bombings than Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Qaeda combined."
Jewish Defense League: http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data/tops/terrorist_organization_profile.asp?id=183
"JDL was the second-most active group in the U.S. during its existence. Only the Puerto Rican separatist group, Armed Forces of National Liberation, was a larger terrorist threat at that time."
NLFT: http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data/tops/terrorist_organization_profile.asp?id=3644
"These groups have crossed the line into terrorist attacks, including murders of political officials, rival tribal members, and non-tribal citizens. NLFT targets innocent civilians, for reasons as petty as voting for a non-tribal political party."
Canadian Freedomites: http://cjtm.icaap.org/content/4/v4art4.html
"Terrorism took the form of arson and bombings of Doukhobor homes, government buildings, churches, schools, and railroad bridges and switches. Most of this was the work of the Sons of Freedom, Doukhobor extremists whose ideals emphasize communal living and action, ecstatic religious doctrine, and anarchic attitudes towards external regulation."
#271l, do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, or other public place, killing non-Muslims in the name of Allah, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?
#28i find the posts on here very interesting..and somewhat bias in both directions..i found this site by searching on google does the zohar say kill non believers. go figure..well heres me 2 cents i have traveled to most regions of the world at this point in my life i have met hindus buddists muslims christians toaists kabballists and a few others in thier homelands and multiple examples of these faith holding people from different countries as well and at this point i feel they are all basically the same simply people that have been taught by thier elders as best as possible basically the (golden rule) treat others as youd like to be treated, in the highest regard that statement can be interpreted..each has its own rituals and traditions but the overall teachings of these books or verbal belief systems are the same. there is obvious corruption over many years of translation and extreme interpretations but i believe from my experiences and all the people ive met from each faith seem to beleive my above statement is the core of thier religon and each and every person ive met has been gracious and non judgemental in a discussion of this nature... so i find it really hard to understand the devout and sometimes unwavering opinions on here..as well as the lack of understanding or need to justify anything about your beleifs or the core meanings behind them.. i would encourage anyone who is using information from any of these books as ammo against another religion to instead visit these cultures respectfully talk to people locally get to know them visit there religious centres and i really feel you will loose the desire to continue in a futile demeaning debate
adam
#29u know adam, probably the sanest answer on here, and i agree with you fully, that's why ive given up trying to argue with vik rubenfeld.
#30and im not from germany, why do i have a german flag next to my name?????
#31Vik wrote in post #21
If you do not agree, it is because you know perfectly well that Islam says that a Muslim who dies killing non-Muslims is rewarded for it by being sent to paradise. From the Hadith (the sayings and doings of Mohammed, which are considered holy books in Islam), Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35, on the USC Muslim Student Association web site:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."
Vik's interpretation of the quote seems open to debate to me. "Holy battles" is not defined...how the battle starts would determine a lot. If a Muslim community were attacked without provocation, by a colonizing European army for example, and a Muslim from a neighboring community came to help without being asked, commanded, or without expectation of reward (or any compulsion other than faith), then that is a far different "holy battle" than the kind fought by terrorists.
Adam's response makes me curious...what qualifies Vik Rubenfeld as an expert on Islam? Has Vik traveled to several Muslim nations, or lived among Muslims for any significant amount of time? I'm not assuming he hasn't. But I'd be interested to know the source of his "expertise".
#32hello everyone on the forrum. I am a muslim. Growing up i see killings on tv and invasions of countries and so on. So much is wrong with the world. Why do christians hate so much on muslims. why do jews hate so much on muslims. we do not attack unless its defensively. muslims are not thirsty blood drinking vampires. we are people that like to learn, love peace, and love people. just like everyone out there. we are all human. don't you people see... no matter what religion or what name your called or the color of your skin.. we came from the same source. we believe in the same thing. if only we could realize that instead of trying to compete with whose right and whose wrong. in the qur'aan (this is not a direct quote) God says that he will judge between us on the day of judgement in what we did differ. As we say in egypt, "Leave it to God". Please everyone stop worrying and stop fighting. It is pointless trying to convert everyone to Islam, it is pointless trying to convert everyone to judaism and christianity. just follow what your religion tells you and mind your own bussiness. If everyone would just stop looking for fights. Please everyone keep it simple, and be respectful. Ofcourse if one looks into the bible from a muslim eye he might see things he can differ with. and into the qur'aan with a christian eye he might see things he can differ with. but then again, we all know perfection is a quality only god has. our thoughts are incomplete and we can never understand God completely or perfectlly unless he wills. so please everyone... for our God the one and only, end these hateful discussions. strive for peace and peaceful solutions. and don't think what would jesus do, or what what muhammed do, think instead, "if i do this, what will god think of me"
if you piss someone else off... what would god think of you....... if you make someone's depressing day all the more worth living... what would god think of you. Strive for good.... strive to make God happy. Everyone... please. We'll never be perfect unless God wills, untill that happens, whats wrong with trying our hardest to make God happy with us.
Thankyou anyone who read this. Inshallah, God willing, we'll all be friends and accept eachother for how God created us. Always remember, Good beats evil. God is all that is good. And the devil is all that is bad. God created the devil and surely he can take life just as he gave it. Remember God is stronger than the devil..... good is stronger than evil. Never fear... God is always... always here.
#33and i hope all us who did good meet in heaven, the true victors.... and rejoice. i can only pray that i be one of those men.
be good to meet your goal. heaven.
#34"just another guy":
we believe in the same thing.
Actually, we don't believe in the same thing. Muslims often claim that Islam believes in the same prophets as Judaism and Christianity, and is a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. But according to Islam, Jesus was not the son of God and Jesus did not die for our sins. Not only that, the Koran heaps scorn on Christians who believe in Jesus as the son of God:
From the Koran, 19.088:
They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
The Koran also heaps scorn on Judaism, claiming that the Jewish people said such as a thing as "we have killed the messiah". From the Koran, 04.157:
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Why do you misrepresent the facts about Islam?
#35By "believe in the same thing", I think he's referring more to the spirit of the golden rule..."do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
The argument as to the identity of Christ extends into the Christian faith...some believe in the Holy Trinity, some believe Jesus is the Son of God, but not actually God...Muslims simply believe Jesus was a prophet, because they assert that God doesn't have any children. Jews don't consider Jesus the Son of God either, and you don't seem to have a problem with that, do you?
Which is more important, following the teachings of Jesus, or determining whether Jesus is God in the flesh, the son of God as a separate being, or a prophet?
As for this bit..."The Koran also heaps scorn on Judaism, claiming that the Jewish people said such as a thing as "we have killed the messiah". ...How is this scorn? Wouldn't Christians pretty much agree with this statement?
#36Jamie, let him speak for himself.
#37Vik,
I'm joining the conversation with points of my own...if he thinks I'm out of line with his train of thought, I'm sure he's quite capable of letting us know...he doesn't need your help, so take your own advice.
Overall, I think "just another guy" has some excellent points. I really like ""if i do this, what will god think of me" ...I think that's a much better guide to live by than "what would Jesus do". If you only do things because it's what you think Jesus would do, and the act does not come from within your own heart, then you are an empty vessel. Being good out of fear that God will send you to Hell is artificial...truth is the act committed without thought of reward or punishment. If you follow either Christianity or Islam strictly by the text, I don't think there's much room for such interpretation...which is why I don't classify as a true Christian to some, and I can only wonder if "just another guy" receives the same kind of resistance from fellow Muslims.
Verse 5:32 of the Quran is on capital punishment. It mentions two cases where capital punishment is allows.
The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss.
Spreading mischief in the land is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, and destabilize the society. Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:
• Treason / Apostacy (when one leaves the faith and joins the enemy in fighting against the Muslim community)
• Terrorism
• Land, sea, or air piracy
• Rape
• Adultery
The following verse, 5:33, applies to those that wage was against the Muslims. The verse prescribes death as one of the punishments but not as the only one. After the “Battle of the trench”, in which Jews living under the Prophet joined forces with the opposing army to wage war against him, the Prophet decided to exile the Jews that conspired against him. He did not kill them. Nor did the Prophet kill the pagans that lived in Makkah, who had been waging war against him for years, when he conquered it.
“Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made, because they are oppressed. And Allah is able to assist them — those who are driven from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah.” (22:39-40)
“And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.” (2:190)
“And if they incline to peace, you must also incline to it, and trust in Allah.” (8:61)
Your conclusion that Islam declares war against anyone who isn’t a Muslim is incorrect. Islam teaches tolerance of other religions.
“If anyone of the idolaters seek your protection, protect him till he hears the word of Allah, then convey him to his place of safety. This is because they are a people who have no knowledge.” (9:6)
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. (60:8)
The Quran does not ask Muslims to fight and convert everyone to Islam. As can be seen from the following verse
“If they accept Islam, then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, your duty (O Prophet) is only to deliver the message.” (3:20)
Let me continue by mentioning some of the sayings of the Prophet regarding tolerance.
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”
"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet."
"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God."
"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise."
Now that I’ve cleared up your misconceptions, I have to ask how you can judge an entire book based on four sentences? Have you read the Quran? Have you looked into the details of the verses you mentioned? How can one judge an entire book by just four sentences?
The fact that needs to be understood is that religiously oriented violence has by no means been confined to Islam. In the United States, abortion clinics have been bombed and their doctors shot because, to the perpetrators, the Christian Bible commands it. Jim Jones killed or required the suicide of his own followers at his camp in Guyana, and David Koresh did nothing to prevent the mass death of his followers at Waco. Lets not forget issues such as the molestation of young boys by priests at several different Churches, the cannibalism committed by the Crusaders during the first Crusade and the acts of the BTK killer who was the head of a church.
Muslims don’t blame Christians or the Bible for all these actions. They blame religious extremists.
Here is a list of “violent” verses in the Bible :
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Islam seems a lot more peaceful after reading all that but I won’t judge Christianity or the bible based on that because those could’ve have been and most probably are taken out of context but you can see how easily someone can just list a number of verses that can be considered violent without knowing what precedes or follows the verse or in what context the verse was revealed in. I will not judge an entire book based on a few verses.