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I found this surprising. But given that Christianity came from the Middle East originally, perhaps it shouldn’t be so unexpected.
Thomas F. Madden, associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University, discusses the History of Islam and of the Crusades.
Islam has always added converts via military conquest.
For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggressionan attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianityand for that matter any other non-Muslim religionhas no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.
With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.
That is what gave birth to the Crusades.
One of the biggest questions we are currently addressing is, how ingrained is this bias towards war in the Islamic nations of today? Are there enough peaceful devotees of Islam for the voice of reason to prevail, ultimately, in their own nations?
Daniel Pipes has made a brilliant contribution to finding the answer to this, by suggesting questions that may be asked of Muslims to assess their standing on key issues of war and peace.
#1
#3with regard to Lebanon, you are actually living thru a historical period, as it is becomming Hezbollastan. That is right, what was Hizb Allah, or the Party of God Stan. And yes, a very interesting article above, do pay attention to the fact that Palistine had been Christian until the eighth century, this especially in view that Americans hear Islamics, with their selective memory as to the entirety of the Crusades being the Christian response to 400 years of agression by Islam in 1099, and as to how they are the victims, the Good Guys, and how they tell Americans that this is the reason for terrorism. That the Palistineans "have had their land seized, and if Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and the others would just fix the Palistinean problem and give them their land back, we could all live in peace." As "Islam is really a religion of peace, and he who has killed a single person has killed all of mankind." Nevermind that the totality of Islamic practice on Earth has been agression and tyranny in the name of Allah. And nevermind that the peaceful verses from Mecca have been abrogated by the later vitrolic, truculent verses of Medina. Nevermind that they know that, but remember the selective memory of Islamics. And elsewhere on this blog, the Princess of the Nile telling of how enlightened the Egyptian people are with all their satellite dishes. Very interesting Princess, but are they all pointed at Al Jazerra?
And this article does mention that "Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule." This article does not intend to tell the whole story in just a couple of paragraphs, obviously, so one might read this excerpt and think that served those Jews and Christians well. Maybe, if you understand what a "Dhimmi" and Dhimmitude is. I shall point you to "Eurabia, Land of Dhimmitude," by Bat Ye'or. And you French, you proud French, a must read for you, as you are so proud of your history (Why, I do not know, for your only victories are against other French folks.) And you will absolutely love your future, as a very charming thing is awaiting you, the fruits of your valor. The Second French Revolution is perhaps ten years away. And oh, those brave American, British, Canadian ... soldiers who died on the Normandy beaches for you. And in the Ardennes forest, and at Bastogne, for those brave Belgians. The same ones who are told by their government that they cannot observe a moment of silence for the victims of 9/11, as it may "offend Islamics." What shall you, or I, or anyone else say to the families of those soldiers who died for you?? Just what???
And Princess. or the others like you, just how well did dhimmitude serve the Christians of Symrna in the years leading up to and culminating in 1922? And the Christians who used to live in Istanbul and the rest of Asia Minor? What will it be, silence or lies, or a combination, as it has been since 1922. What, oh enlightened people of Egypt and the Islamic world? But fear not, we in America love to be lied to, and we have the Dhimmicratic Party, and yes, you did not imagine that, we did, in the face of all reason, run out to vote for them in droves Nov 4th, and so lies serve you well, and selective silence. As Islamics are known for, very selective memory, and knowing who to lie to and who loves to be lied to. If only you could have told the Japanese that before December 7th, 1941. If only the Japanese had known to just smile and tell the Americans thet they come in peace, that Americans just love to be lied to. I think Islam knows that, no December 7th, just keep telling them lies, and they will keep voting for the Dhimmicrat party. What is not to like for you about Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, just keep lying, they just eat it up. After all, they forgot 9/11 very quickly, and that was just 8 years ago? Just keep telling them that this is a very unusual thing for Islamics to do, just a couple of fringe misguided guys, a regrettable thing, and they will believe you. Nevermind that libraries are filled with books that would tell them the truth, just nevermind that, they do not read them.
#4"Islam was born in war and grew the same way."
I dont think that way. Islam and Cristianity and the Jews have the same base, Abramah & Ibraham. What was the religion of Muhamed?
The same religion that Jesus had, a monoteistic religion that is baced on the lineage of Abraham and the teaching of that lineage, but they both have their own tought about the situation. Jesus hated the priest and the hipocryte people. He tought that good is inside us, that there isent any honour of doing sacraments/sacrifices if your toughts arent pure.
Muhamed in other hand heated idolitary. On time of muhammed the temples of Allah were full of idols of messangers of gods, but like in Jewis fate, in all Ibraham fates, making of an idol of an god is forbiden. How can you say that Mecca or Medina vere crisians if there were idols inside that vere worshipped as the messangers of god?
"While the term is best known in the west for its use by muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all abrahamic faiths, including Cristians and Jews, in reference to "God"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllÄh
How you see things is stange. The Romans started the fight and they continued it as they became a cristian state. They were the bully who let you pay the tax and keep your god´s if you keep the ceasar also as a god.
After they went cristians they were the sameking bully, not even as conserning than the muslims that you could keep your religion if you would want to but not as a state religion. If you were in Roman empire and you were not a cristian in that time, you would be in trouble. And by cristian i mean, you did not belive in the way that the priest or the king told you how you should belive. No free directions.
The mecca wasent mainly cristian when Muhammed took it over. The main fait was animism and idolitary god worshipping.
#5Tepi wrote: "What was the religion of Muhamed? The same religion that Jesus had...." History records that Muhammod was a mass murderer and a serial rapist who married a 7 year old. Convert or die he said, and that is now the Verse of the Sword (Sura 9:5) of the Koran. And millions were slaughtered in the name of Allah because of the teachings of Muhammod.
Killing people because they had idols, why? Did Christians kill people because of their not being Christians? That seems to be the case, but it was about 500 years ago. Muslims still do this, a small percent of them actually doing the killing, and an estimated 25-30% being sympathetic to things like suicide bombers in the name of Allah, but the majority of Muslims being decent honorable people.
Let's hope that the Internet will be the vehicle to shed light on the evil promoted by the Quran and bring reform, and empower the Muslim mainstream to take away the bully pulpit of the fanatical murdurers that think Allah is telling them to do all these horrible things.
#6Tepi, der alleswisser has given you an excellent response. Your view is a common one. However, examination of the foundational books of Islam, including the Sira, which is the life of Mohammed, confirm what der alleswisser has noted. Mohammed's biography is filled with events in which Mohammed killed non-Muslims specifically because they were non-Muslims. This is in stark contrast to the life of Jesus.
The Koran and Hadith are filled with injunctions, commanding Muslims to kill non-Muslims in the name of Islam. (See this link as well as this link). Nowhere in the Bible are people of Judeo-Christian faith commanded to kill all those who are not of Judeo-Christian faith. The Crusades occurred, but the Crusaders could not cite any biblical text commanding them to do as they did. This may be contrasted with Islam, in which those who kill in the name of Islam regularly cite passages from the Koran as their reasons for acting as they did.
This video shows a priest who lives in Egypt today saying that whenever a terrorist action occurs, such as the murder of Christians at a church, the Islamic leadership says the terrorist was a madman, and then does nothing to prevent such occurrences from happening in the future. This is just what the Islamic leadership is attempting to do right now with regard to the murders committed at Fort Hood. But anyone familiar with the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sira, knows that the terrorist is precisely following the example of Mohammed and the commands of the Koran and the Hadith.
This link documents murders committed in the name of Islam on U.S. soil since 1972.
Tepi, to conclude: your view of Islam would not outlast a better familiarity with the foundational books of Islam.
#7Tepi wrote: "What was the religion of Muhamed? The same religion that Jesus had...."
"History records that Muhammod was a mass murderer and a serial rapist who married a 7 year old. Convert or die he said, and that is now the Verse of the Sword (Sura 9:5) of the Koran. And millions were slaughtered in the name of Allah because of the teachings of Muhammod."
In any means I did not say that Muhamed acted right or that I think that heś ways to convert people was good. You know there is pedophile priest that are cristians. And bible speaks a lot about how you can belive/have faith but, still you can do bad things. A bad cristian acording to bible is more worst than a man that has no faith at all. All that I was implying was that the muslims and jews have the same Lord. The Lord of Aabraham/Ibraham. How do they see fith to serve him, there is the difference, Muhamed used force,Jesus Love.
"Killing people because they had idols, why? Did Christians kill people because of their not being Christians? That seems to be the case, but it was about 500 years ago."
Well, still also some crisians use terms like crusade even today and are willing to use violense against non cristians, exsample the Falangist operated massmurder in Sabra and Shatila 1982. And Islam is about 500 years younger than cristianity. I think that all ideologies, countyes etc. are like humans, when they are young they are unpredictable and violent, but when they get older they start to calms down.
. And the killing in history in the name of cristianity are mutch nearer that 500 years. Exsapmle witchhunt lasted from about 300 years at least from 1400-1700. The inkvision had already before then killed heretics(other cristians,gnostiks etc. People like me) and pagans. Invisitions
the Medieval Inquisition (1184–1230s) the Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834) the Portuguese Inquisition (1536–1821) the Roman Inquisition (1542 – c. 1860 )Torture, murder, severing member and other punishments in the name of God, just because you werent cristian or you did not belive in the way that church told you. Crusades wasent happy trip eather. No cumbajaas in there.
"Muslims still do this, a small percent of them actually doing the killing, and an estimated 25-30% being sympathetic to things like suicide bombers in the name of Allah, but the majority of Muslims being decent honorable people."
Well normaly the people who die in those suicide bombibs are also muslims, so I dont thint that the accentanse rate is as high as you say. Some crisian kill abortion doctors and do other bad things. And I dont think that the suiside bombers do them because of the fait, but because they think that they are at war. I think that in any part of Koran there isent any word that says anything about suicide bombers. Like the people in that attacked Twin Towers. Was the reason religious or something else. I think tha the people of Saudi-Arabia are held as hostages by USA army and the royal family.
They dont have army and women hasent even right to vote. How can you rise against your opressors(The Saudi Royal Family or the Religious leaders, if maybe the most advanced army is covering their bag
#8Tepi above wrote: "And I dont think that the suiside bombers do them because of the fait, but because they think that they are at war. I think that in any part of Koran there isent any word that says anything about suicide bombers. Like the people in that attacked Twin Towers. Was the reason religious or something else."
However, on page 125 of The Legacy of Jihad, by Andrew Bostom, there is: "Quran 4.74: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a great reward.
"Quran 9.111: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise..."
Going to page 41 of Whalid Phares' War of Ideas, there is: The ushq al mout (love of death) is the backbone of suicide bombing and gives terrorism its most frightening firepower. Indeed, once the fear of death is subtracted from political planning and public concern, there are no limits to the power of Jihadism. Hence arose the concept of Istishaad, translated as "martyrdom" in Western languages. But the concept is different from what the word has meant historically. In Christian religious history, a "martyr" was a person who sacrificed himself or herself to give witness to their beliefs. Linguistically, the word comes from muerte, mort, or "dying for." Istishaad includes dying dying for one's belief, but it also includes taking other people's lives. Dying for religion is martyrdom; killing as well as being killed for religion is Jihad. The philosophical difference is enormous. .... In short, in the present international context, individuals and political movements may not legislate or license killing, suicide, or massacres based on divine, theological, or ideological grounds. In this respect, democracies and Jihadism are irreversibly opposed."
Although Liberals do not understand who or what the enemy is, and indeed cannot bring themselves to even say "terrorist," and will go to extravagant measures to not call obvious acts of terrorism, such as Fort Hood, what they are; for anyone who has undergone an objective exegesis of what the Quran is, it is undeniable that the Quran is the ultimate Wellspring of Evil. It is in no way comparable to the Bible, and Timothy McVeigh, perverted priests, Falangists, etc. by no means absolves the prolifigate deeds of evil committed throughout fourteen centuries by Muslims in the name of Allah.
Will Islam undergo a historical progression as did Christianity? Not unless the Quran is reformed, but it expressively forbids any such interpretation. Will Muslims find leaders who demand the revison or re-interpretation of the evil verses? They clash with the Quran if they do. So far the only leaders of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims are Satanic, pure evil, monsters. From Hell.
#9"And I dont think that the suiside bombers do them because of the fait, but because they think that they are at war. I think that in any part of Koran there isent any word that says anything about suicide bombers. Like the people in that attacked Twin Towers. Was the reason religious or something else."
Nice way to cut the sentense
"I think tha the people of Saudi-Arabia are held as hostages by USA army and the royal family.
They dont have army and women hasent even right to vote. How can you rise against your opressors(The Saudi Royal Family or the Religious leaders, if maybe the most advanced army is covering their bag"
So If the USA is covering the back of the leaders of a nation that has the most strict law and who opresses it's own people, and the people cannot do anything else than move out from the country the blame is still on Islam?They cant rise to mutiny, not enought weapons etc. and your army has quite good weapons.
Why werent most the 9/11 terrorist from Iran?
Why they were from Saudi-Arabia?
As long as USA is covering the back of tyrants the country has enemies.
Its simple as that.
As long as USA is robbing away other countries natural resources and wont give the people of that nation desent democratic share they have enemies.
Religious, political, or just angry people whos relatives, parents etc. are suffering from oprsession.
If your country were here in Finland expsample drilling our sweet water sumplies, would play the role of our nations army and would keep the power in the hands of one family who would get most of the money coming from the water sales and would not give expsample women right to vote and oprsessing itś own people, I think there would be some angry people here too. Even most of the Finns are cristians.
Or if thats too hard, think it this way. Some other country would move its army to your country, then would put some old "royal" family to rule you and would dismiss your own army, except the police, who would be religious fundamentals, killing abortion doctor and also using the hamurabi law.
The court conserning death penalties would be closed
There would be no rightt criticize the royal family, the religous leaders etc.
Then they would start to take out of your country your natural resources and most of you could just watch it on the side, and live in poverty.
I have spoken to cristian priest here in Finland also. Some of them think that people in our wars died because they were protecting fate from communisim. But real fate dont change even it is opressed, or attacked.
It wont die.
And you cannot protect it whit weapons.
"But the concept is different from what the word has meant historically. In Christian religious history, a "martyr" was a person who sacrificed himself or herself to give witness to their beliefs. Linguistically, the word comes from muerte, mort, or "dying for." "
There is many kinds of martyrs in crisian religious history. Some like you sayd, died because their faith, and did not rise a finger against the opressor to save them self. The old school cristian martyrs.
But do you realy think that most of the normal people who took part in crusades were not thinking that when they die, they die for God?
As martyrs?
Read little more history please. Read what the church tought then.The crusades werent even just agaist muslims, they were also against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek orthodox cristians, mongols and against poltical enemies of the popes etc.
Most of the late martyrs are people who the church killed and later made as martys, exsample Joan Of Arc.
And I think that Jesus did not teach anything about going to war, or converting people whit sword.
#10"Although Liberals do not understand who or what the enemy is,"
I'm not liberal, but I belive in Freedom. My enemy is the Satan. Nobody else. Satan isent in any text, any form of religion. What I see now is the too demons standing. Who are they, or will be? China, USA, Islman or cristianity that would opress the non belivers that I cannot tell for sure.
But at least the end of times is near. And the world of anticrist is rising.
Where you cannot sell anything, whitout a personal number.
In witch form will the Satan take, I dont know. But always when someone is taking away somebodys personal Freedom, the Satan is in charge.
"and indeed cannot bring themselves to even say "terrorist," and will go to extravagant measures to not call obvious acts of terrorism, such as Fort Hood,what they are; for anyone who has undergone an objective exegesis of what the Quran is, it is undeniable that the Quran is the ultimate Wellspring of Evil. It is in no way comparable to the Bible, and Timothy McVeigh, perverted priests, Falangists, etc. by no means absolves the prolifigate deeds of evil committed throughout fourteen centuries by Muslims in the name of Allah. "
Somebody terrorist, it others freedom fighter. Has been and always will be. People kill eatch other. You should not do that, even if you think that you are freedom fighter. You are then a terrorist also.
If the muslims vere so bad in the past, why exsample the jews found shelter among them in Spain and not among the cristians? Or could it be that the cristian church isent the same thing as cristianity and in history there has been times when muslim church have gone to war, and been more violent and times when they have been more peacefull. And same thing in some of cristian churhches. How many churches in the states, is against the war, or any war?
I think that you are now mixing the consept of fate and consept of religion.
You can do bad things in the name of religion. And you can do good things in the name of religion. But at least Jesus was only conserned on peoples fate. If he would not been, why whould he not say letst charge and conquer the power from the Fariseus. But no, he sayed, that the fariseus etc. has no more power, no more right than a common man.
Hes teaching were in the line whit zaraustast principle. Try to think good, speak good, do good.
And avoid thinking bad toughts, speaking bad words or doign bad deeds.
Not because this is the way you will be saved, but because you can, when you feel the love on Jesus in you true his teachings.
So the case in Fort Hood was e terrorism because
And Timothy McVeigh was not a terrorist because?
"Quran is the ultimate Wellspring of Evil"
I thought that there is just Satan and God and their servants. And the Satan is in the shadows. Jesus did not say, kill the Satan, or even attack the evil. No, he tought us to pray for everyman, do good and not help the evil to do their evil deeds.
No evil goes in you or comes out from you. Everybodys evil borns from their own mind, lured by the Satan and that evil seed they can spread around.
Quran teaches also some of the teachings of Jesus, so I would not call it the wellspring of Evil. The wellpsring of Evil is Satan. The wellspring of Evil is Mammon.
You cannot serve two gods, God and Mammon/money. I think that the mammons most common form today is greed, judgement and un-love. And it can be seen in every religion.
#11Sorry about the bad english, not my native language.
Ment to write, The court conserning death penalties would be behing closed door, non-public.
Even Im cristian I think that the crusades were a bad thing. The swedes and the Russians opressed us, the people of Finland, in the name of cristianity from 1200 to 1918.
The orthodox church and the catholic church/ The kingdom of Sweden and the Kingdom of Russia. To me, that was just a power strugle and had nothing to do with Jesus. Catholic church even used the language of latin in the church seremonies so that commonman could not even know what they were talkin about in every catholic country at the times.
They realy wanted people to know what Jesus was talking about
The church was also the first in our country that started to sell vast amounts of distilled alcohol.
If you need an army to convert, then I think that you arent converting in the name of Jesus. If you are conquering the land same time and collecting tax etc. and opressing the native people, I think Jesus would not like that eather. I think he would even more gladly keep the people as hedens, who dont know God or his law, who just would try to follow their consciense than that his God would be presented in that way.
#12Above Tepi wrote: "Quran teaches also some of the teachings of Jesus, so I would not call it the wellspring of Evil. The wellpsring of Evil is Satan."
On page 72 of Serge Trifkovic's The Sword of the Prophet is: "The Kuran makes reference to Jesus, Mary, and events related to them, but with a critical distinction. It explicitly denies that Jesus was crucified: Allah made the Jews so confused that they crucified someone else.......It seems illogical to those who count 'proud' as one of the '99 most beautiful names of 'Allah" that Jesus, who was capable of raising the dead and of curing the blind and the leper, willingly submitted to the cross and failed to destroy the Jews who intended to hurt him.....
"Of all 'people of the book,' only Muslims can attain salvation. Jews and Christians may be distinguished from pagans and elevated to somewhat higher status, but their refusal to acknowledge Muhammod as the messenger of God dooms them to unbelief and eternal suffering after death."
The Quran is an evil book, and Islam is a fundamentally evil religion (but not all Muslims are fundamentally evil) due to its intransigence to those who have different beliefs. If intransigence was all there was, not so bad, agree to disagree. But that is not Islam, as the verse of the sword (Sura (9:5) commands: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practices regular charity then open the way for them; for God is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
Convert or die, that is what is different about Islam, and that is why the Quran is the Wellspring of Evil. The notion that not only Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia which forbids all other religions, must be Islamic, but that other civilizations must be invaded and their people either murdured or coverted or become Dhimmis to spread Islam, as commanded by Allah. Muslims (some) think that Allah has commanded to be the cowbirds of the human race. There is evil in the world, but this is a cohesive evil that could not have sustained itself except for religious fanatism. It creates nothing, it destroys everything, and it gains wealth only by stealing from those they have murdered. If there is a personified Satan, the Quran is his words.
#13Also from Tepi:
"So the case in Fort Hood was e terrorism because, And Timothy McVeigh was not a terrorist because?"
Actually, "terrorist" is not the right word. Throughout history there have been criminals and IRA types and such, but the Islamic "terrorists" do evil deeds in the name of God. No one points to verses in the Bible as reason to commit evil, but Islamics have destroyed civilizations in a huge swath of the planet for fourteen centuries all in the name of Allah. Billions murdered to the cry of "Allahu Akbar." Better to call them "Humanoids who have gone to the Darkside," or "Devil Worshipers," or "Satan's Soldiers."
From Tepi too: "If the Muslims vere so bad in the past, why exsample the jews found shelter among them in Spain and not among the cristians?"
We must keep in mind that Muslims (and others) rewrite history to cover up their deeds and pretend they are good guys. From page 21 of Andrew Bostom's "The Legacy of Jihad" is: "In an important essay, 'The Pro-Islamic Jews,' Bernard Lewis recounts how the romantic cult of Spain reaching its peak in Victor Hugo's 'Hernani' influenced Jews who now nourished the illusion that they 'had flourished in Muslim Spain, had been driven from Christian Spain, and found refuge in Muslim Turkey.' But as Lewis points out, 'The Golden Age of Spain with regard to equal rights' was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam. The myth was created by nineteenth century Jews in Europe as a reproach to Christians."
Page 58: "In Granada, the Jewish vizers Naghrela and his son, Joseph, who protected the Jewish community, were both assassinated between 1056 and 1066, followed by the annihilation of the Jewish population by local Muslims. It is estimated that up to 5,000 Jews perished in the pogrom by Muslims that accompanied the 1066 assassination. This figure equals or exceeds the number of Jews reportedly killed by the Crusaders some 30 years later in the First Crusade."
So read your history, it is all there. Look at the map at the beginning of the 7th century, and see how many civilizations have been destroyed by Muslims in the name of Allah since then. See how much assimilaton occured as compared to annihilation.
#14On page 72 of Serge Trifkovic's The Sword of the Prophet is: "The Kuran makes reference to Jesus, Mary, and events related to them, but with a critical distinction. It explicitly denies that Jesus was crucified: Allah made the Jews so confused that they crucified someone else.......It seems illogical to those who count 'proud' as one of the '99 most beautiful names of 'Allah" that Jesus, who was capable of raising the dead and of curing the blind and the leper, willingly submitted to the cross and failed to destroy the Jews who intended to hurt him.....
Well thats Serge Trifkovics opinnion. For me the crucification isent the only important thing Jesus has tought and not the only thing that I respect about him. If someone looks his teachings as a student reads the teachings of a teacher, then that it better than nothing. They dont understand the message that Jesus brought to earth, but at least they say that he was a teacher and a profet.
""Of all 'people of the book,' only Muslims can attain salvation. Jews and Christians may be distinguished from pagans and elevated to somewhat higher status, but their refusal to acknowledge Muhammod as the messenger of God dooms them to unbelief and eternal suffering after death.""
Not true. Muhamed sayed that only few jews, few cristians and few muslims will be saved. Not all the muslims, because some of the have gone astay, not all the cristian because some of them have gone astray and not all the jews because some of them have gone astray.
And how does this is different from the bible. Dosent many of the cristians belive that only the crisians are going to heaven. For me "the peopole of the book" have goon astray, they make the book bigger thing than the teachings in it. Most of the religions are death, but fate is live and kicking.
"Actually, "terrorist" is not the right word. Throughout history there have been criminals and IRA types and such, but the Islamic "terrorists" do evil deeds in the name of God. No one points to verses in the Bible as reason to commit evil, but Islamics have destroyed civilizations in a huge swath of the planet for fourteen centuries all in the name of Allah. Billions murdered to the cry of "Allahu Akbar." Better to call them "Humanoids who have gone to the Darkside," or "Devil Worshipers," or "Satan's Soldiers.""
Are you sure your lamp is burning and your eye is well?
Have you gone tired to fight the evil around you, your own greed etc. and make an idol of evil?
That souds just like Regan talking about the communist. The Jews have slayn different religions in the name of God, because God commandet them. The crusades where done in the name of God. Then they tought that it is better for the some of the headens to get killed and some saved than all of them going to hell, because they dont know Jesus. In the name on cristianity there has been mutch more slaying than in the name of Allah.
But I dont think God realy preciates slaying in His name. Dont commit murder. Dont kill.
"So read your history, it is all there. Look at the map at the beginning of the 7th century, and see how many civilizations have been destroyed by Muslims in the name of Allah since then. See how much assimilaton occured as compared to annihilation."
Yep, read your history, it is all there. Look at the map of the beginning of the cristianic church, expecially catholic, and see how many civilizations have been destroyed, slayn of made as slaves by Crisitans in the name of God since then. See how much assimilation occured as compared to annihilation.
You are hopeless. You still are mixing religion and fate. Politics and fate. Powermongering and fate.
#15"Fate" is Islam's false promise to suicide bombers and others who kill in the name of Allah of dark-eyed houris and such in the afterlife to spread Islam. It is a religon of death for Allah for a promised Afterlife. It forbids critical thinking and rationality, curosity. This is why Muslims have contributed so little to mankind as compared to Jews and others.
From Tepi: "The Jews have slayn different religions in the name of God, because God commandet them. The crusades where done in the name of God. Then they tought that it is better for the some of the headens to get killed and some saved than all of them going to hell, because they dont know Jesus. In the name on cristianity there has been mutch more slaying than in the name of Allah."
One of the forums on this blog is a timeline of events that led to the first Crusade in 1099. It shows the Crusade was in response to 400 years of Islamic aggression. It was defensive, not in the name of God, no Bible verses quoted. Can you cite references to Jewish destruction of civilizations by giving them the Convert or Die or Dhimmitude option? Anything comparable to the destruction and massacres of the peoples of Persia, Syro-Palestine, India, Asia Minor, the Balkans, Andalusia, Egypt, ....and now they are in Europe. You see them in Europe, what do you see in them? Do you think they will assimilate? You do understand the men were slaughtered in the name of Allah, and their women and children enslaved? The other thing it was about was booty. The Quran told them they could keep 80% and the rest went to promote the religion, for Allah. What Muhammod did was to form a critical mass of religious fanatics, fueled by the supposed commands of Allah and stealing, plundering, raping, pillage, slaughter. This gave them more and more conversions (Convert or Die, and payment of the Jizya if not), and booty. A virus that got out of control, devouring civilization after civilization.
Read Serge Trifkovic's The Sword of the Prophet. But if you don't like or believe him, try Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad. This one is long and comphrensive. Another is by Bat Y'or, which I have not read, but there are several. That is if you want to know the truth. To Islamics the truth has no value (similar to Liberals there), the truth is what they say, nothing but lies to glorify Allah and Islam. It is divenly ordained lying by the Quran, called al Taqiyya. I and others on this and other blogs can only take you so far, IF you want to know the truth.
#16""Fate" is Islam's false promise to suicide bombers and others who kill in the name of Allah of dark-eyed houris and such in the afterlife to spread Islam. It is a religon of death for Allah for a promised Afterlife. It forbids critical thinking and rationality, curosity. This is why Muslims have contributed so little to mankind as compared to Jews and others. "
What part of the coran is against critical thinking or rationality?
People who has exsample inventerd the windmill seem quite rational.
People who dont sacrifice animals to their god,what most of the religons did that time, seem quite rational. Why did Jesus die, because our sins. So cristianity has also some death in it. Why did the first martyrs die, because they did not belive in violence AT ALL, IN ANY CASE!
It so funny how you see muslims crusades and the cristian crusades in sutch a different light.
"This is why muslims have contributed so little to mankind as compared to Jews and others?"
Quite a hard opinnion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_medieval_Islam
"Can you cite references to Jewish destruction of civilizations by giving them the Convert or Die or Dhimmitude option? "
Yes, well they did not even give them possibilty to convert. I am in a bit hurry now so I will post the part later where is it sayed in the Bible.
"It was defensive, not in the name of God, no Bible verses quoted. "
So about 1000 years of war was just defensive? The occupation of arabic countries was just defensive? You have very different view what "defend" means, that I do. I see it this way, when you are protecting your countries suvernity and the enemies troops are trying to come over your borders you are defending. When you move over those borders, you are attacking.
Who did attack first, midle-east countries to Europe or some European countries to midle-east? Persians and the Romans were the first at least what I know. Again, mixin politics, nations ambissions to have more power to fate. Did Jesus teach that slaving is a good thing even jews had slaves. No, he sayed, the man who frees will be set free.
"and now they are in Europe. You see them in Europe, what do you see in them? Do you think they will assimilate? You do understand the men were slaughtered in the name of Allah, and their women and children enslaved? The other thing it was about was booty. The Quran told them they could keep 80% and the rest went to promote the religion, for Allah. What Muhammod did was to form a critical mass of religious fanatics, fueled by the supposed commands of Allah and stealing, plundering, raping, pillage, slaughter."
The muslims gave mutch the same options to nations that the "cristian" crusaders and converters. To convert or die. Abandon your old religion and habits. Well I dont know how mutch muslims burned people because they were witches? And the crusader weren buntch of happy campers against the nations they vere conquering. Rape, murders and blundig happened in their part also. And in the later history, the cristians have done the worst deeds, expsample north and south american indians, India, China, Africa etc. I cannot see what muslims have done that could be compared to those.
And about the slaving part, the cristians and the jews have also done their part in that.
Muslims have been living almost from the beginning of their fate in europe. There has been living muslims in Finland over 400 years, maybe even longer. If you read history, you will find that some muslim scolars where studying european nations, witch vere still "pagan", even in cristian times. I dont see any difference how muslims and cristians converted "pagans". I have muslims friends also, and yes, they do assimilate. Whe have had talks about our fate and we have quite similar view about God and the purpose of life. God is loving father, and the purpose of life is to serve him as well as you can. Try to be good towards other people, try to avoid sins and dont lure other people to do sins.
Of course all of them dont assimilate. It was the same thing when people arrived to america. Some did assimilate, some dont, and some are still living on the way they want to live, like the amish exsample, and there is nothing wrong with it as long as they obey the nations laws. If they dont, the goverment will punnish as it sees fit. Not always in the way that God would, justice department isetn same as justice.
#17"But if you don't like or believe him, try Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad. This one is long and comphrensive. Another is by Bat Y'or, which I have not read, but there are several. That is if you want to know the truth. "
I have only one teacher. One that I trust fully. One who has shown me the truht as it is. And that is Joshua, what is Jesus real name. Evertything else to me is just speculation.
Well maybe the name of that dude isent so important, as what he did and teached.
But if I have time to read some of those maybe I will.
"To Islamics the truth has no value (similar to Liberals there), the truth is what they say, nothing but lies to glorify Allah and Islam. "
So you are absolutly sure that you know the truht and the whole truht.
I touhgt that only God can know everyting. Liberals are ready for conversation, is that a bad thing? I dont want to judge anybody, thats gods job, but that seems quite harsh opinnion.
#18From Tepi above in #16:
"This is why muslims have contributed so little to mankind as compared to Jews and others?"
Quite a hard opinnion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_medieval_Islam
From page 36 in Serge Trifkovic's Defeating Jihad:
"Since Muhammod is the final prophet, there can be no further development in any judicial matters where the Kuran and the sunna provide guidance. this undermines the possibility of rational civic debate in Muslim nations and limits the ability of Muslims to partake in good faith in the civic life of a non-Muslim society. Politics is not 'part of Islam,' a separate sphere of existence which is then eventually amalgamated with Islam. Rather, politics is the inherent core of the Islamic imperative of Allah's supreme sovereignty.
"The results, Winston Churchill noted over a century ago, are a 'fearful fatalistic apathy...improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property' whereever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.'
"The Islamic 'Golden Age' myth perpetrated by the Western elite clsss is belied by history. After the brief period of flourishing, first in Baghdad, then in Spain, and finally ( and very briefly) on the Bosphorus under Suleiman, the history of Islam has been that of a long decline without fall. What started as a violent creed of the invaders from the desert soon ran out of steam, but the collective memory of earlier successes lingered on.
"It was not until 1683 that the Islamic menace to Europe was finally crushed at the gates of Vienna, but for long before that the Islamic world had little interestiong to say, or do, at least measured against the enormous cultural developments in the East and West. Not even a prime location at the crossroads of the world could supply an antidote to the slow paralysis of obscurantism.
"The latent tension developed between the views of world history as the fulfillment of Islam and its 'triumph' everywhere on the one hand, and the reality of the squalor, decadence and weakness on the other. The absence of spirit of critical inquiry essential to the growth of knowlege has always been the key to understanding Islam's closed heart and its closed mind."
Were it not for oil, it would be much worse for the Muslim world. Unfortunately, oil revenues have and are being used to fund terrorism and build mosques, rather than do anything useful. It is all in the history books. Start by reading the Nobel Prize awards in the sciences.
#19Serge Trifkovic's Defeating Jihad:
"After the brief period of flourishing, first in Baghdad, then in Spain, and finally ( and very briefly) on the Bosphorus under Suleiman, the history of Islam has been that of a long decline without fall. "
What does Serge mean by brief. Hunder years, four hunder years or what.
So if the states would fumble down now, it can bee seen just a brief moment in history I belive much more in western history writings etc. You know that the only history writings that is made of muslims arent made by westerns and muslims, there are many more nations mensioning them.
You must realy think this Serge Trfkovics has the truht in his hand. You are ready to undermine all history writings because he says so. One man.
Did you read any of the wiki link I send here about the islamic inventions? Or is Serge the only truht and his theory is totaly correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Trifkovic
When i read that, I doesent convince me mutch. He isent even a professor in history. Seem more like a populist to me.
"The results, Winston Churchill noted over a century ago, are a 'fearful fatalistic apathy...improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property' whereever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.'
So some president says that. What about it? Winston Churchill isent even a historian. I dont even think he was a great man. Slovenly systems of agriculture, hah. The muslims had mutch better agriculture long time before than the west had. The green relolution is just about how you can controll the subtance trade on fertilizer. And when some of them run out, we will be again in big trouble whit our food suply. Almost the same thing as with the oil. Read about the western sahara. Why wont the west give it to Maroco that seem to be the kindom that has own the place for long time.
Could it be because there is so mutch phostphate in the area? And also maybe oil and gas? Are they trying to do the same thing as with Kuwait?
Build a small nation so you can quite cheaply take away their natural resources and still keep the small population happy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara
"Were it not for oil, it would be much worse for the Muslim world. Unfortunately, oil revenues have and are being used to fund terrorism and build mosques, rather than do anything useful. It is all in the history books. "
So read the history then. The oil revenues arent used just to fund terrorisims. Most of the midle-east countries haven did not get any of the revenues for long time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmah_Oil_Company_Ltd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Persian_Oil_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Petroleum_Company
Read those so you can see how fare share the people of those countries where getting before the revolutions in Iraq and in Iran.
And think how cheap must the saudi-arabia sell their oil and how mutch of that money is going to the people of that nation. And why USA is keeping the Saudi famlily in power.
The Saudi-Arabies people are held as a hostage by USA army. They dont have own army, they dont have any civil rights. And they dont have any way to get them as long as USA:s army is keeping the Saudi family in power. States are holding the feudalist in power in Saudi-Arabia, as states mom, Great Brittan was holding them before you. The Saudi-Arabia was born in I world war, from areas that was taken from Ottoman Empire. And USA have been also funding the terrorist, like muhajiid in Afganistan that are now in leading the Taleban and Al-quaida and also the northern alliance. Osama Bin Laden was first in your side agaist the soviets in the "cold war."
#20what are you talking about, what millions were killed by the name of Allah, i think you dont know Islam and you just want to be someone by sayen that words to be famous or whatever going on in your mind and am sayen to the people please read about Islam from the right books not your books
by the way in Egypt we have more than 15 % christians and i have many christian friends
so dont try with Egypt its out of your hands.
you dont deserve any reply
#21Ahmed, welcome to the site. Documented estimates are that, over the past 1400 years, about 270 million non-Muslims have been killed by Islamists who believed they were doing as they were directed to do by the Koran. As you know, the Koran and the Hadith contain the principle that Muslims are to kill non-Muslims until they convert to Islam or submit to be dominated by an Islamic government that oppresses them. Reports on the oppression of Christians in Egypt are here and here.
Ahmed, do you believe that Islamic suicide bombers who blow up a bus, restaurant, or other public place, in the name of Allah, are rewarded for it by being sent to paradise? If you do, you should be aware that this is a distinctly Islamic teaching. No other religion in the world tells its followers to kill specifically those of other religions. No other religion in the world leads to mothers willingly sending their children to kill specifically those of other religions and to be killed themselves in doing so.
Ahmed, would you be punished if you were seen reading the Bible? If you have not yet done so, I recommend that you get ahold of a Bible and have a look at it. You may be amazed to find that the true beauty of life is contained in it. Life is meant to be joyous, beautiful, and full of good deeds to all people around us, regardless of their religion. You would not be the first - see this link. You can find the Bible online here.
#22daer...authour
Islam means peace. Islam only fought war when others attacked. Learn more about Islam.....................................................................
#23Blaze, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a train, plane, or other public place, in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?
#24Blaze, Islam does not mean "peace," it means "submission." Those who submit are in the dar al Islam, and those who do not are in the dar al harb, or the land of war. Islam is a doctrine, theology, and legal system that mandates perpetual warfare against the unbeliever. Those who lie about this with all this phoney religion of peace stuff are practicing al taqiyya, or devine mandating of lying and deceit to promote Islam.
As it has been said before, not all Muslims are evil, just like the great majority of Christians do not take the Bible's hostile verses literally. The difference is that the Muslim mainstream is evil. Organizations like CAIR, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the various Islamic organizations that speak for the religion are overwhelmingly evil, and Islam the anthesis of the Christian religion. Just look around you, the great majority of conflicts around the world have and continue to involve Muslims.
when you say 'Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered'
does that include Lebanon ? since lebanon which is a middle eastern nation with a large percentage of christians, do you think they want to wipe them out ?