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Via new blogger Jim O’Sullivan:
It’s a link to an Arab News account of camel beauty pageant. This is what happens to a culture that covers up and oppresses its women.
Ships of the desert cat-walked their way into the hearts of thousands of spectators before a panel of judges who evaluated them for their dignified gait; original Arabian bloodlines; whole physique; response to the slightest direction of the drivers and overall comeliness.
The camel pageant contest starts at 6:30 a.m. and lasts until 11 a.m. everyday with a colorful procession of decorated camels in a ring with their owners while specialized judges evaluate the entrants. The kind of mouth, how long and strong is the neck, the hump, big lips, and the beauty of the hair are among the criteria applied to determine the best looking camel.
...Camel owners take good care of their precious creatures. They are scrubbed and shampooed every day, said Metle Al-Otaiby who enters the contest every year.
Doesn’t that sound a little odd? Don’t miss the photo in the linked article.
If we dropped leaflets of movie babes in their Oscar dresses over Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, it would probably contribute to the burgeoning movement toward democracy in those states. Perhaps with text that says, “Democracy leads to this.”
#1
#2zwichenzug... did you look at the photo?
#3
#4There are no crowns or costume jewelry in the dog costumes on the pages you linked to, as there are in the photo of the camel in the linked article. Nor do we have anything called a "beauty pageant" for dogs.
I mean, really. What is your point?
The pageant is called a "beauty pageant", not a "dog show" or a "camel show." The camels are judged on their "overall comeliness." Having a beauty pageant for camels is a result of a culture that covers up and oppresses its women.
Vik, you are crazy. We have beauty pagents in austin, tx for men in drag, for horses, and even for cars.
#6Men in drag certainly has a sexual connotation, which makes my point rather than yours. Cars are machines and cannot be compared to animals. Horses, however, are certainly comparable. Can you provide a link to a site that has photos from a "beauty pageant" for horses?
I don't think you take my point. In Austin, Tx, where women are free to do whatever they want (and, thankfully, do what they want while wearing very little), we STILL have men-in-drag pageants. There are all kinds of goofy things that happen in our society that are certainly NOT the result of our oppression of our women.
Based on very little information (and an English translation of Arabic that happens to include words like "beauty pageant" and "comliness"--who knows what is actually being said?), you jump to a fairly fantastic conclusion. If you saw this happen in the US it would be just another crazy hippy thing or something. But since it happens in the mid east, it is confirmation of what you aready think about those people.
#8Now I get it. You think that you're making an argument. Let me just mention that your argument is laughably bad. You have two main premises - that this is a sexualized representation of a camel and that the occurence of a sexualized representation of a camel is causally linked to the oppression of women - neither of which is as secure as the conclusion you draw from them - that the oppression of women is bad. Since the premises are less secure than the conclusion, there really is no sense in which you've supported your views by evidence.
Another silly implication is the idea that what's wrong with oppressing women is that it might lead to treating camels as sexual objects. I shudder at the thought.
Here's a suggestion. Why not admit to yourself that what's really going on is that you don't like muslims, you saw an opportunity to riducule their culture, and you did?
#9Guys, I want to hear your thoughts, but name-calling is not accepted on this site. This site is not available for comments like "you are crazy" and "your argument is laughably bad," whether directed to me or other commenters. Be advised that I will edit such name-calling out of comments, in keeping with the stated policy of this section, that "Abusive remarks may be deleted."
I will respond later today to the points you have raised.
#10Bellman,
I note that you have not yet supplied a link to a page showing photos of a "beauty pageant" for horses in America, which you previously stated existed.
In Austin, Tx, where women are free to do whatever they want (and, thankfully, do what they want while wearing very little), we STILL have men-in-drag pageants. There are all kinds of goofy things that happen in our society that are certainly NOT the result of our oppression of our women.
I did not state anything to the contrary. For example, I did not state that the absence of oppression of women would put an end to gay behavior.
#11zwichenzug,
I did not say the camels were "sexualized," nor did I say the pageant participants were treating camels as "sexual objects." It is you who are bringing up those terms with regard to the camels. Perhaps you are objecting to a point of view I have not expressed. You may be incorrectly concluding that I am alleging that the camels are treated in such a way. I do not allege that. I think the "beauty pageant" is exactly what it says and what the Arab News article describes -- nothing more than a "beauty pageant" for camels.
My point is, who would make such a big deal about the "beauty" of camels if you had women to look at and celebrate?
BTW, this a pretty funny thing to have an argument about.
1. I call people crazy all the time. I did not mean to offend.
2. You used the term "sexual" in this thread before any of the rest of us.
3. You make a causal argument when you say "This is what happens to a culture that covers up and oppresses its women."
4. There is NO evidence for a causal link between opression of women and the camel thing.
5. The fact that you assume that there is a causal link even though there is no evidence reflects on your prejudice (you have pre-judged the reason for the camel pageant).
6. I attempted to gently point this out by letting you know that crazy things like this happen in the US, where there is no such oppression.
7. Nobody's denying that women are oppressed in that culture, and nobody here is arguing that it's good thing. We just don't see any connection to the camel pagaent,
8. That pageant, at least for me, reminds me of the kinds of things that go on in the US all the time. (sorry, I can't find a link to the horse pageant).
9. The camel pageant is very funny. I suspect that it's pretty funny to the people who hold th pageant as well.
#13Thanks for the reasonable response, Bellman.
2. You used the term “sexual” in this thread before any of the rest of us.
I didn't apply it to camels.
3. You make a causal argument when you say “This is what happens to a culture that covers up and oppresses its women.”
Correct.
4. There is NO evidence for a causal link between opression of women and the camel thing.
I think the occurrence of the camel beauty pageant in a culture that oppresses women is in itself evidence of exactly that.
5. The fact that you assume that there is a causal link even though there is no evidence reflects on your prejudice (you have pre-judged the reason for the camel pageant).
I disagree that there is no such evidence.
6. I attempted to gently point this out by letting you know that crazy things like this happen in the US, where there is no such oppression.
Such things as a camel beauty pageant? You stated that there are beauty pageants for horses in Austin, Texas, but you have not yet provided documentation for this.
8. That pageant, at least for me, reminds me of the kinds of things that go on in the US all the time. (sorry, I can’t find a link to the horse pageant).
I speculate that that's because there aren't any.
9. The camel pageant is very funny. I suspect that it’s pretty funny to the people who hold th pageant as well.
The Arab News article presented no indication that this was considered funny in that culture.
Vik, I thought we weren't supposed to call each other names, here, and yet you "speculate" that I am a liar! I'll get to that in a moment.
But first, the reason this all came up is point 4 of your reply. You are making a classical logical fallacy that is immediately obvious to at least some of your readers. Specifically you are making the "post hoc" causal fallacy. You might care to read about fallacies. Coincidence is NOT evidence of causation. Saying it is might convince some stupid people, but I gather you thought it was pretty clever.
Now, on to how you broke your own rules:
After thanking me for my reasonably reply, you decide to accuse me of lying about the horse pageant in point 8 of your reply. That doesn't seem so "reasonable" to me.
Would it have killed you to even one google search before accusing me of lying? If so, you could have found several examples of regular horse shows referred to as beauty pageants. Oh, and many more examples of this for dogs. And goats. And cattle. And pigs. I could go on...
A quote: "Suzanne Grinels, Lindsey's mother, said some dog owners use Barbasol to stiffen the hair on the dog's legs, hairspray to keep the coat in place, and powder to whiten the fur.
"At first, we thought that was bizarre," she said. "But then we learned it was a beauty pageant for dogs."
As for the pageant I saw, which was a bit more outlandish than your average show, I don't find a link to it. However, it was in the mid 90s, and you may be too young to remember that a lot of stuff wasn't on the internet just 8 years ago. I think that it would be reasonable for you to do some actual research before accusing others of lying because they claim something that is not part of your pre-conceived ideas about the world. In other words, unless you have a good reason to think I'm lying, go prove it before making the claim.
Finally, if you decide to seek out actual evidence for your claim about women and camels, you might check out this page, which says they have beauty pageants for women at the same festival as the one with the camels.
#15Bellman, I said you might be incorrect. That is not an accusation of lying.
As for the pageant I saw, which was a bit more outlandish than your average show, I don’t find a link to it. However, it was in the mid 90s, and you may be too young to remember that a lot of stuff wasn’t on the internet just 8 years ago.
This is the first time you've told me you saw it. If you'd said that before, I would have immediately taken that as showing that there was such a thing, and I do so now as well.
Coincidence is NOT evidence of causation.
It is circumstantial evidence of causation.
Thanks for the links. These make your point that there are things that Americans call beauty pageants for dogs, goats, etc.
Vik, you are right. I thought I had made it clear that I had seen the pageant: Reading back through the thread I see I did not. I apologize for saying that you were calling me a liar. I was angry for no reason.
#17Thank you, Bellman. Your apology is of course accepted. I really appreciate your response.
So the Sports Illustrated I bought today has some big glossy pictures of a dog show. The county fair gives out blue ribons for prize pigs, cows, and turnips.
So what's your point? I'm sure you don't mean to sound like such a cultural bigot...