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Yesterday I spoke to a local business owner, a man who was born in France, and came to the U.S. in the mid-70's. I haven't yet gotten his permission to identify him here, so I'll call him Curtis.
I asked him what was up with the riots in France. Why don't the French just expel those guys from the country?
I don't yet have corroboration for his statements. Take this as the verbal testimony of one man.
Curtis said that over 80% of the French population would like to expel the radical Islamists, but the government refuses to.
He said that government approval is required to build a house of worship - and that 20 mosques are approved for every 1 non-Muslim temple.
He said that in the airport (he may have been referring to the one that serves Paris), there is a mosque - but there is no non-Islamic house of worship.
He said that Muslims reproduce every 17 years, and that they have over four children for every 1.8 non-Muslim children. (I referred him to Mark Steyn's new book on this subject, America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It.)
He said that the Muslim population in France is constantly going to the government asking for help. The government - that is, the French taxpayer - gives them free housing.
I asked how the French can tolerate 100+ cars being burned every day all this year. He said police have no power to break up crowds of Muslims who come and "dance" threateningly in front of homes and businesses. The police are only able to act when they see a crime being committed in front of them. It's illegal to hold a teenager in jail for more than 2 days. If a citizen asks for a teenaged Muslim who is attacking his property to be arrested, in two days the same criminal will return to threaten or harm him again. Store owners are afraid to call the police when a crowd of Muslims "dance" (Curtis used the word repeatedly) threateningly in front of their business, because he knows the result will be that his business will be burnt. Such store owners often let the Muslims steal whatever they want.
Curtis said that with the huge difference in birthrates, France was doomed.
I said, I thought Socialism was responsible for the poor birthrate, because it literally makes life unrewarding - it takes away the rewards for living your life well and achieving things for yourself and those around you. Curtis responded with great interest to this suggestion.
He said that many French people live in small houses he compared to a U.S. trailer home. He said that for many Frenchmen, permits are required from the government if they want to move, and that such permits are so difficult to get that people often don't try. He said that visitors to France often see how good the social life is there, with friends often getting together - "I'll bring the bread, you bring the wine, you bring the cheese" - but that what visitors don't see is that government regulations strangle any attempts at work so much that beyond social life, there is nothing else. The social life is so good because nothing else is permitted.
And if all that wasn't enough, here's the real shocker.
He said that for 30 years, Muslims and non-Muslims worked side-by-side in French factories and businesses. Everyone thought the Muslims had assimilated. But when the Islamic riots started in France last year, these Muslims "flipped in a second" -- they immediately supported the riots. Their non-Muslim friends said to them, "We thought we knew you - this is wrong, what they are doing, burning cars and rioting." But the supposedly-assimilated Muslims supported the rioters.
#1
#2Hajj, I see you have an email address at the MuslimBrotherhood.com.
From Answers.com:
umma
The Muslim "community" or ideal state worldwide.
From Merriam-Webster online:
Main Entry: über al·les
Pronunciation: "[ue]-ber-'ä-les
Etymology: German
: above everything else
So what your email means is that Muslim Sharia law should be above everything else. This implies that you would like to overthrow the U.S. constitution and replace it with Sharia law. Is this a correct statement of your views?
#3Haii,
Two thoughts come to mind:
1. Umma Uber Alles reminds me of Deutschland über alles and National Socialism. The Third Reich was to last a thousand years but fell within 12.
2. Umma to most of us, is the entire American community which would include Muslims.
Your pronouncement is smug, insular, and destined for failure.
I pray that this failure won't be at the same price and devestation as WWII.
#4Just as the French collaborated and made peace with the Nazis they will do so again with Islam.
#5The history of France's birthrate and population decline is quite interesting and worthy of study. It predates socialism back to the time of the revolution. Until then, France was the largest nation in Europe and maybe the second most populated country after only China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
#6Civility toward radicals will only last so long, no matter what nation we're talking about.
Multiculturalism works against assimilation by "celebrating" all ethnic backgrounds, religions and philosophies. It reminds me of the rule for anthropologists that they should not make judgments about a culture they study. I heard a lady with this view on a talk show where the host asked her if it weren't evil to practice human sacrifice. She kept insisting that it would not be her choice, but that she had no place condemning the people who practiced it. Another example was on The Newshour when an African American gentleman claimed that Crispus Attucks was more important in American History than George Washington, which Arthur Schlesinger rejected roundly.
This is why conservatives dislike multiculturalism.
Most Westerners believe in and practice respect and tolerance, but they also expect respect and tolerance in return. Ethnic groups coming to a country are not expect to just drop all their cohesion and values, but if they insist that the host nation do so in order to accommodate them, They will find that the tolerance, respect and understanding wear thin quite quickly. Sometimes this happens without cause, as in the case of Japanese-American who were put in interment camps during WWII, or German Americans were suspected as spies.
However, some Japanese-Americans and some German-Americans felt that their first duty was to their "home" countries. In that case, they should have left and returned to their home countries. You don't get to come here and expect that the country be made over more to your liking.
The most multicultural Europeans, the Dutch, are realizing that they have welcomed many Muslims who hate the freedoms and decadence of the Netherlands. I probably wouldn't like it either, but when 40% of Rotterdam is Muslim, those freedoms may not have much of a future, and if there is a Muslim majority which favors enacting Sharia Law, there will be violence.
The solution would be for the Dutch to start reproducing more and accepting immigrants less, but it may be too late now.
It seems to me that most Muslims don't agree with the radicals, but fear them and keep quiet. But it's not hard to convince some people that they're being oppressed when they are required to uncover their faces for identification purposes. If there are more train bombings and other terrorist attacks, there will have to be a facedown.
#7Multiculturalism and democracy does not mean embracing those who would undermine both.
#8Islamism is a problem for all of us regardless of faith, they are completely narrow minded and can't see outside their box. People living in a country need to integrate. We cannot have a situation of different ghettos for each ethnic and cultural group.
When people move to another country, one has to ask, if they don't appreciate their host country's culture, what are they doing there? In the UK, I know many Muslims who appreciate British culture and way of life, they feel part of it and defend it. However, due to Islamist propaganda, there are also those who are becoming extreme and narrow minded. These people are a danger to us all!
To prevent further escalation of this poison in our country, it needs to be made clear that while we all have freedom of speech, it is completely unacceptable to preach hate, or violence! Extremists need to know they will not be tolerated, and action will be taken against those who preach violence. Muslims do not govern European countries, it is therefore the duty of the governments and judicial systems in these countries to take action against any individuals who preach hate.
However, please be aware the danger is Islamism, not Islam. Traditional Islam as taught by our great Shaykhs, such as Rumi, Ghazzali, Ibn Arabi, Abdul Qadir Jilani, Ahmed Raza Khan etc - is essentially peaceful and spiritual. It is this traditional Islam that is the antidote to Islamism, and needs to be revived.
#9Paul, thanks very much for this great post!
#10Paul, your post is in a different thread than the thread in which we were having the rest of our conversation. If you have no objection, I will move it there.
#11Paul, that was a nice post, but I fear it is, in the words of Andrew McCarthy, "A triumph of hope over experience." McCarthy is the author of "Willful Blindness, a Memoir of the Jihad," and was the lead prosecutor of the Blind Sheik and the other terrorists that the FBI let bomb the WTC the first time (and to some extent, the second time).
First, take a re-read of the above post about how the French worked alongside Islamics for 30 years and thought they were assimilated, but to their shock and despair, "flipped in a second" when presented with the riots 2 years ago.
You mentioned "Traditional Islam as taught by our great Shaykhs, such as Rumi, Ghazzali, Ibn Arabi, Abdul Qadir Jilani, Ahmed Raza ..." but you seemingly do not understand that they do not condemn the horrific evil perpetrated by Islamics in the name of Allah. You will not see any Islamic criticize another Islamic for anything regardless of how evil it is, b/c they will reply that Allah commanded it and you are an Apostate for criticizing Allah. It is un-Islamic to criticise another Islamic. The Quran is not to be questioned, and any Islamic who does so must fear for his life. The Quran is filled with evil if taken literally, and while there are verses in the Bible that would constitute evil if taken literally (slay anyone who works on the Sabbath, sell your daughters into slavery, joyously bash your enemies heads against the rocks...), any one who did any of this now would be pay the consequences. This is not true in Islam, viz. 9/11, the Muhammod Teddy Bear, Afghanistan's government condemning to death one who converted to Christianity in 2005, suicide bombers at weddings, in restaurants,..., trying to blow up 10 airliners simultaneously over the Atlantic....Did you hear any outrage from Islamics about their religion being "hijacked" by extremists?? Didn't think so.
Unfortunately, Islamics cannot question their religion and therfore cannot determine the difference between what is right and wrong, and thus can never become civilized. Those Islamics you mentioned in praise above, listen to them carefully and note that there will be no criticism of the acts of Islamics, and so this civilization is a threat to the civilized world. That is, unless they totally reverse their practices from those they have shown since the 7th century. And although hope is a great concept, we must be practical and realize that unless Islam can throw off "the heaviest chains in the history of humanity," (Earnest Renan), it is very unlikely that they will do so. The consequences are alarming.
#12Today it is popular to criticise Islam. Many authors have earned good money from writing anti-Islamic books. Over 1 in 5 people around the world identify with Islam as their religion. Out of such a large population, it's not difficult to find those involved in various crimes including terrorism. However, the vast majority are clearly not supporters of such vile deeds.
Surely we shouldn't let our reason slip... To use reason, is one of the great hallmarks of Western civilisation, ever since the days of Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece. Even the Holy Qur'an tell us to be people who use their reason!
The view of Islam you espouse is not Islam as I, my congregation or the majority of practising Muslims I know understand it. What you are referring to, are radical ideologies such as Wahabism, and Qutbism. Though trying to disguise themselves as Islamic sects, in reality they have far more in common with radical political ideologies like Communism and Nazism!
#13Then why do you not speak out? Why does Islam not police its evil? Why no Ghandis, Churchills, Jeffersons, ... great leaders who pursue the common good for all and seek to know what is right & wrong? Why no James Clerk Maxwells, is it because you do not need a coherent theory of electricity & magnetism as Allah has figured all that out for you as written in Quran? Why no Nicola Teslas since Allah has figured out alternating circuits for you? Why no Shakespheres, Galleios, Newtons, Da Vincis, Allesandro Voltas, Benjamin Franklins, Amperes, Humphrey Davies, Karl Fredrich Gauss's, Michael Faradays, Mozarts, Gutenbergs, Lentzs, Schroedengers, Edisons, Einsteins,...Terrorists love the Internet to spead evil, but do you know where that came from? That was the ARPANET, or Advanced Research Projects Net of none ever than the US Department of Defense. Terrorists may love to use it but fail to recognize that the "Heaviest Chains ever to shakle mankind" of Islam could never have created this. Why only evil leaders like Bin Laden who is idolized throughout the Islamic world. Do you speak out about him and the Zarkawis, Zwahlaeris, Sadrs, and all the evil leaders to your congregation? What do you talk about? Do you not realize that there is a sin of omission? Doubt it, since you would have to deal with fanatics who come to behead you as you have insulted Allah, because he said that was ok, a fatwa or something. Why are your only decent leaders, Benezir Bhutto, Sadat, a very short list, why are they all murderes by terrorists? Supposedly this majority of "moderate Muslims," then why can none claim the so called "Arab Street" and proclaim what is right and wrong?
And you do not address the fundamental Islamic flaw of not being able to criticize another Islamic who performs appalingly evil deeds in the name of Allah. Fly airplanes loaded with innocent people into buildings loaded with innocent people in the name of Allah, and you either dance in the streets, or at best say nothing. Innocents are beheaded in the name of Allah and you say nothing. Daniel Pearl, missionaries in the Phillipines, Eric Berg, ... and nothing is said. Killing a school teacher for her students naming a teddy bear Muhommed? Oh there is outrage about cartoons and the Pope saying something about an evil Islamic in the fourteenth century, but no acknowledgement about the evil Islamics do NOW in the name of Allah. And do you realize that for every evil deed performed by the Blind Sheik, bin Laden, ... they can point to a verse from the Quran that commands them to do what they did and HAVE QUOTED THE QURAN CORRECTLY, and no Islamic can say anything about it or they have offended Allah? Do you not realize that this is a perfect Petri Dish for the nurturing and profileration of evil? The argument that there are just a few of these evil Islamics and the majority are peaceful just does not stand up to scrutiny.
Evil Prevails When Good Men Say Nothing.
#14Your ignorance is shocking... Many Muslims do, are and have always been speaking out - I've already mentioned this in a previous comment on this very website! Take Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani for instance, he publicly warned the US government about Al-Qaeda and similar groups long before Sept. 11, 2001. Hoping the US government would take heed and preventative action. (The videos are on YouTube)
All mainstream Muslim organisations condemned the attacks, together with terrorism in general. We've always sent our condolences to the victims and prayed for them. However, if you only get your information from the likes of Fox News, you wouldn't have heard these stories! After all, corporate news channels are only going to report what they want to, what they think will increase their viewer ratings!
As for science and technology, you couldn't be any further from the truth! Muslims have a long history of being involved in the sciences and arts, even long before the West was...
http://www.1001inventions.com/
http://www.muslimheritage.com/
Though you may be unaware of it, we have many saints in our religion, such as Attar, Rumi, and Ibn Arabi. People who lived extremely peaceful lives, seeking only to spread peace and enlightenment. Anyone who has seriously looked into Islam would know this, realising fanatics have absolutely no credentials or credibility in our faith!
#15Paul, your comments are refreshing and at least it seems you are a decent and rational person. Just watched "Obsession, Radical Islam's War on the West," and one of the distrubing (of many) excerpts was the deceit and duplicity of Islamic leaders. One was sweet comments from Yassar Arafat (who did a wonderful job of playing Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton for fools) denouncing terror to the press, and then another in privacy saying "Jihad, jihad,..." over and over again to jubliant Islamic terrorists. Then another guy was talking about how wrong it was to fly airplanes with innocents into buildings with innocents, and then the same person is shown in a celebration north of London for the 19 terrorists who were in 9/11. These were testimonies of Waleb Soldat, and ex PLO terrorist, the daughter of a suicide bomber, a Palestinian journalist, and serveral others, most of whom were Islamic. One talked of what he hoped was just fear in his religion, but he said he hoped the silence among Islamics about the evil deeds done in the name of Allah was not due to support for those ideas. Neither of these possibilities are good. And it came up over and over again about the silence in Islam, and it was stated that the general response of the Islamic world to 9/11 was "delight." The most glee was from the Palestinians. It is unfortunate that we have stupid liberal leaders like Carter and Clinton and upcoming Neville Obama who have wasted billions of dollars on these people who hate us and are aligned with Iran and the evil in the Quran. Even recently under GW Bush we sent them $500 million, hard earned money from American people to enemies. And of course there is Neville Obama who is ready to follow in Carter and Clinton's Useful Fool role for Akdamajinhad. You cannot buy off evil, you must destroy evil. I would tell you to watch the movie (available on cable, Netflix, etc, but not on America's politically correct media such as ABC, NBC, CBS,...so much for Freedom of Speech, yes, we have a lot of shallow clueless people here, and that is dangerous), but I do not know if that is possible for Islamic people, or if so, safe.
What about Sura 48:29, "Muhammad is God's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the UNBELIEVERS but merciful to one another." Or Sura 9:5 "Slay the UNBELIEVERS whereever you find them." ?? Does any other religon tell their followers to "Slay the Unbelievers?" Now please don't use that old canard of "the Bible has that stuff too." You do not see Christians do evil deeds in the name of the bible today, like you did hundreds of years ago, there has been a historical progression in Christianity and Judeaism, but Islamics take the Quran as not even a creation but a divine thing that is the actual word of their so called God. And they just follow it with no rational thought as to what they are doing. It is not open to interpretation by the so-called Fundamental (Evil) Islamics. Contrast this to the Bible being an "Interpretation" of God's word.
Constaniople was 50% christian as late as 1914, but now it is 99.9% Muslim. Why, where did they go, why did they need to go, or were they murdered for being "Unbelievers?" What happened to the estimated 1.1 million Armenians who were "dhimmis" under Islamic rule, but then murded after 1911? A genocide of christians, how can anyone say this is the work of a few fanatics? What about the 200,000 MUSLIMS who were recently murdered in Algeria by MUSLIMS who thought their brand of Islam was not evil enough? How do you dismiss this?
#16Your examples of Islamic contributions are noteworthy but I am sure you understand they are dated. Check the Nobel Prizes in the sciences and arts and you will be struck by the lack of Muslims and the numerous hated Jews on those lists. On page 113 of "Islam Revealed" by Robert Spencer you have "Not only did the Muslims of the seventh century thru the 12th centuries build a great empire, they also fashioned a grand civilization that led to works in technology, science, lirerature, philosophy and more." Then on page 124 from Hittis's book "The Arabs" is: "In no branch of pure or physical science was any appreciable advance made after Abbasid days. The Moslems of today, if dependent on their own books, would indeed have less than their distant ancestors in the eleventh century. In medicine, philosophy, mathematics, botany and other disciplines a certain point was reached - and the mind of Islam seemed to stand still ...In fact the whole Arab works had by the beginning of the thirteenth century lost the intellectual hegemony it has maintained since the eight." Muslims can either deny this, or ask themselves why it is.
And finally Paul, do you tell your congregation about the evil acts done by Islamics in the name of Allah and why this is wrong, or do you just deny and ignore it? Is mainstream Islam going to assert itself, or follow the evil Islamism ones into oblivion?
#17As an Englishman, I share your displeasure and concern with the actions of recent leaders of both our countries. The lack of wisdom they've shown is shocking! Very worrying for citizens of the UK and US, as well as others elsewhere, who expect us to set an example. The other individuals you site are a disgrace to the God in whom they claim to believe and the faith they claim to uphold. They may be from Muslim backgrounds, but their actions are far from Islamic! Honesty is a virtue championed by Islam as in all other faiths. However, treachery on the other hand, is about as far from virtuous as one can get!
I know many imams, scholars and leaders in our faith community, who would be shocked and appalled to hear about the actions of these individuals you cite. Not only are they a disgrace, they undermine the good work of Muslims like myself who are working in the best interests of everyone.
However, I must call into question the way some people try to demonise whole communities, due to the actions of a few unrepresentative individuals. I would never try to paint Christians as bad due to the actions of David Koresh or former President Nixon. Such a suggestion would be ludicrous! Christians would quickly point out, these individuals are not model Christians, look at what Christianity really teaches not a few bad individuals. Likewise, there are over 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, even if you counted all the terrorists, fanatics and corrupt leaders they make up an extremely tiny minority of the Muslim community.
#18The loss of intellectual hegemony is a sad truth I do not deny. Though if you look at how this came about, you'd realise it was due to the renaissance in Europe. Hence Europeans overtook Muslims in the sciences and education. Obviously, this doesn't mean there were no more Muslim scientists, mathematicians or doctors. Simply that the West overtook them in new developments. It is difficult for any people to maintain intellectual hegemony for hundreds of years. Likewise, the British occupied this position for many years. But the same cannot be said of us today.
However, if any people relied only on their own books, we'd all be back in the stone age! Muslims brought together the learning of the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, Indians, Persians and others. They added to this themselves, before transferring this body of knowledge on to Europeans. Though it is unfortunately true, that today few are leaders in any particular field of learning, there are still many Muslims who are good doctors, scientists and other professionals.
Education costs money. Throughout much of the twentieth century, many Muslim countries were quite poor. More recently, this has changed in some places. Thanks to the increased wealth, many people are investing in a good education. Therefore I do not think it will be too long, before we find more Muslims becoming the leaders in their respective fields of research.
#19I have a great deal of respect for the contribution many Jewish people have made to the overall benefit of humanity. We owe a lot to them, it is truly a shame that many do not have more appreciation for the work they have done and the sacrifice they have made.
#20An enlightened populace is something we all need, and it is critical that enlightened Muslims become dominant and join the moral battle as to what is right and wrong. Right now it seems much education, at least in places like the Palistinean territories, Iran, and parts of Saudi Arabia, which has the most virulent brand of Isalm (Whallibist) controls the media and demonizes Israel and the West as the reason for all their problems. Brainwashing from childhood (Do watch Obsession, and decide for yourself how objective it is, as you are in England).
One thing you will see is an estimate of 10 to 15% of those 1.3 billion Muslims who are in favor of such as suicide bombings, martyrdom as a key to paradise, and a general mentality that is at once laughable and horrifying. This gives over a hundred of millions of fanatics in the world's fasting growing population and religion, and you do not have to be very mathematically inclined to see where that is going. A poll in the UK after the latest wave of terrorism there revealed that 26% supported terrorism to advance Islam. This from Muslims who have been treated very well by the British taxpayers with welfare and support, and at least in the case of those doctor terrorists, very good lives. The film goes on to say that the percent who dislike the US and UK is "far wider."
This while Iran is furtively trying to acquire nuclear weapons and delivery systems, nevermind that Iran's leader is a hostage taker (he denies but the hostages have fingered him), believes that stuff about the "hidden Imam" who fell down a well, and that he will rearise only when an end of days scenario is created, which he intends to cause. Very dangerous stuff, and from a man who would at best be driving a cab in the US. No credentials whatsoever, just fanctical adherance to the worst verses in the Quran.
And then you have the Israelis watching all this, and with gathering alarm as to the likelihood of Neville Obama becoming president, not only woefully unqualified for the job, but is heavily involved in the subprime - Acorn - "Affordable Housing ruse" thing that has at least for now almost destroyed not only the US but the global economy. And his association with the likes of Bill Aryes, the so called "reverend Wright" and all these other shady people can only be ignored for so long. And unfortunately, most blacks will vote for him simply because they think he is black, with no introspect as to his shallowness and his surrender monkey policy. Americans have become a spoiled lot, not just blacks, and the Democrat party has a long history of telling minorities to vote for them and they will get handouts. The subprime thing is a disgrace, and unfortunately the ones who vote for Obama do not see how involved in it. The second term of Jimmy Carter, but this is a much more dangerous world than when he was president. The Israelis are not stupid, they have seen evil up close and personal.
So Paul, the key is for the Islamic majority to assert itself, and yes, education is the key to that. Jefferson said "the informed citizen is the cornerstone of democracy," but unfortunately we have our politically - correct media that pretends that radical Islam is not a big deal, and as was said, will not air "Obsession" as they "don't want to offend anyone." I personally think it should be pointed out to Islamics what has done in the name of Allah in the hope that they will do something about it. I fear that America has lost its way, and have forgotten the words of Jeffeson. So moderate Islam needs to understand his message.
#21"An enlightened populace is something we all need..." This would be a very good start, but how does one become enlightened? How does one help others become enlightened? Surely we need to assess the facts? If we don't have the facts before us, we need to do our own research. We certainly can't rely on a biased or overly politically correct media to do that for us.
One has to be careful when looking at opinion polls, they depend upon the sample taken. Is that sample truly representative of the wider population. As 'Obsession' is made by people known to be very pro-Israel and anti-Muslim, I'd expect it not to be that objective... Though having said that, I will watch it anyway, I would like to know what's been portrayed.
A good documentary I have watched, that deals with the subject of radical Islamists and the conflict between them and the West was the BBC's 'The Power of Nightmares'. If you haven't seen it already, you might find it worth watching...
Wahabism has been a problem for the past century and is largely responsible for motivating the fanatics. However, it's heyday is over - since 9/11 even the Saudis have softened their opposition to more traditional Muslims, who are focussed on spirituality and our common humanity.
Arab countries want to develop their economies further, improving the quality of life for their citizens. They know this will only happen alongside a peaceful, spiritual interpretation of Islam. Hence, fanaticism will be opposed and rooted out. Most Muslim countries are developing peacefully in a constructive direction, in spite of tremendous pressure to oppose further US/Israeli influence in the region. As a foreign influence this has been seen as a threat, inflamed further by the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Once the situation calms down, the perception of this threat will disappear together with the opposition to it. However, we can't expect to invade other peoples sovereign countries without some comeback and must recognise our own responsibility in the present situation.
As America started these wars, I fear the US media has been putting out mainly negative news about the Muslim world. To do otherwise could cause people to sympathise with the perceived 'enemy', which wouldn't be a good strategy! I do not rely on the media for my personal world-view, I do my own research and make up my own mind as to what's really going on in the world.
I am a great admirer of the early US presidents, they knew what they were up against and worked for the benefit of their people. They warned future generations that liberty and democracy are only retained through constant vigilance. Unfortunately, people haven't been very vigilant and America has lost it's way as a result. However, people who have lived under tyranny, know liberty and democracy are worth striving for. As they are empowered through increased wealth and better education they will not tolerate oppression.
Nothing stays the same in this world, things are in constant flux. Democracies can become tyrannies as when Hitler was elected in Germany during the 1930's, but tyrannies can be overthrown too, as in the states previously part of the former USSR. A lot of Muslim countries have had tyrannical governments for many years, they are long overdue for a change of governance and many democratic movements do exist in these countries. It's not so much whether this change will occur, but when and that is sooner rather than later.
#22You will see that Nazi Germany figures prominently in "Obsession," as I did not know that the Palistenian leader was an admirer of Hitler, and when he met with Hitler and it was revealed to him that the war's purpose was 'to exterminate the Jews," this led to an Islamic panzer division, German uniforms and all. I really do not understand the hatred of the Jews. From what I can find, only one country resisted and protected the Jews (Denmark, I believe) from the fate of the Nazi holocost. And even today, France has a history of being highly anti-semantic. But please do watch it, as I see this from afar, and you do not. (I have been to Cairo, the Great Pyramid, Alexandria, Tunesia...and was not aware of danger, as this was years ago, but it is worse than disturbing that neither I nor any other sane American can never go again due to the evil, not in everyone, but a significance presence, in that part of the world.)
Enlightment can only come from within. It must be from Islamic leaders who lock up fanatics, like at least we try to do over the protests of lawyers (America is plagued with them and they and the Democratic party are one and the same. Lawyers making laws for the benefit of lawyers and their livlihood, at the benefit of taxpayers). But yes there must be laws and wrongdoers must be locked up and fanatics cannot rule the streets. It is not good that at least some Islamic children are taught hatred from early on and become suicide bombers, all for the supposed 72 virgins and young boys, and I really do not understand how anyone could belive that stuff. Ameria or no one else can dictate to the Islamic world, it must come from within, and that will take courage on the part of leaders, who it seems from afar are afraid (or worse) to speak out for what is right and wrong.
America did not start this, 3000 innocent people went to work on a lovely September 11, and other innocents boarded airlplanes with their children, young and old people going to who knows where. I do not know how available to you the cockpit recorder to United 93 is, but there is one terrorist who wrestled a stewardess, begging for her life to the floor, cutting her throat (and probably beheaded, a big thing for terrorists as the Quran says "strike off the Unbelievers heads). And then as the plane is nearly down, all together, "Allah is beautiful, Allah is beautiful,..." Horrible demonic stuff, but you must realize the message this sends about Islam when people are seen dancing in the streets and praising this sort of thing. Far more insulting than any cartoons or something the Pope said about a 14th Islamic. It all boils down to what does Islam stand for? Is it what you see in Obsession (Which they will tell you early on is not a movie about the Moderate Majority of Islamics)? GW Bush had no choice to respond significantly after 9/11. Unfortunately he did not go after Iran, which is the real sewer of evil in the Islamic world. Maliki may turn out to be a good guy, Mubarak has done some positive things, so there are some leaders. But there is that goon in Syria and Akmadijenad. And the adoration of people like Osama is the greatest danger. That message of his, from hell. Benizir Bhutto was a courageous woman, and her husband is showing some resolve. I am sure it is not lost on the Islamic world that the Muslim defeat at the gates of Vienna was on September 11th.
The whold world is watching, who will speak for the Islamic world? Will it be those evil guys in Obsession raving at streets filled with fanatics jumping up and down in joy? It would be easy to dismiss Muslims as irrational emotional fanatics with no intelligence at all from watching that and seeing this sort of thing in the media continuously, but further scrutiny brings up the creativity of Muslims in the Middle Ages, and this suggests that Islamics have as much intellectual capacity as anyone. And unfortunately it suggests that their Beethovens never emerged as Muhammod said music was evil, and their Gauss's, Goethes, Teslas, Copernicus's, Keplers, ... never contributed, as they were told that Allah had predestined theirs and everyone else's life. It must come from within, and I am rooting for you.
#23Paul and der Alleswissar, it has been great following your discussion.
Paul, I have a question about something you noted in #17.
I know many imams, scholars and leaders in our faith community, who would be shocked and appalled to hear about the actions of these individuals you cite. Not only are they a disgrace, they undermine the good work of Muslims like myself who are working in the best interests of everyone.
It's a bit puzzling to hear that they "would be shocked and appalled to hear about" such actions; unless they have been living on another planet, these imams, scholars and leaders have heard about the actions of such individuals as Paul has cited. If these imams, scholars and leaders are schocked and appalled, what actions have they taken to express these feelings? Have they spoken out yet against Muslim terrorists to say that such terrorists will never go to paradise?
#24True, 'have heard' is more accurate. I doubt anyone hasn't heard of such incidents, even if they haven't heard of every individual case. The point I was making is they have spoken out and are doing good work within our faith communities. As I previously pointed out, you do not often see them on Fox News or CNN, as these networks' main priority, is to increase their viewing audience. But just because you don't see them on these news channels, doesn't mean they're not there. As a practising Muslim living in the community, I know they are. Likewise, if you spent the time to really get to know Muslims, you'd know they are too.
Have you ever considered how much real news is actually being broadcast? Or how the news may be biased? Even one network will differ from another in these points. Peaceful Imams simply don't make interesting or exciting enough news, unlike the taliban, terrorists and al-qaeda, who are considered far more gripping stories. Neither is this new, the same is true of many things.
It should go without saying, terrorists do not go to Paradise. Both suicide and the killing of women, children, rabbis, priests, monks and other non-combatants are completely forbidden even in Sharia law.
#25It should go without saying, but apparently does not for a significant number of Muslims. Why no denunciation from the Muslim world? The problem as seen by the rest of the world is the silence of Islamic Intelligensia. American media are for the most part wildly liberal (it looks like we are to have the second term of Jimmy Carter), the only exceptions being talk radio and Fox. (And the Democrats intend to silence talk radio with something called the Fairness Act, as liberal talk, like Air America, flopped, as no one listens to it). So if there were anything out there positive about the Islamic world on these atrocities, I am sure they would find it.
GW Bush, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair all give impassioned speeches during their terms with the messge that "This is not a war against Islam....Islam is a religion of peace...." "These acts are those of a fringe group within Islam". But we all have to admit that there has been scant evidence in support of that, A true "Triumph of hope over experience". There is no other religion in the world that divides mankind into "Unbelievers" and "Believers." That their holy books implore them to "Slay the unbelievers whereever you find them." And Sura 9:5, the "Verse of the Sword" is not ambigious at all about Islamic responsibilies towards the "Unbelievers." And like Beethoven's ninth symphony, Sura 9 was the last chronologically of Muhammod, and therefore abrogates all others.
And consider this from Sura 56:15 - 24 - "The blessed shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds." And if you think the sexual gratification does not include those "Immortal youths" you would be wrong. This is the height of depravity in the Western World. And we see alarming numbers of young Islamics blowing themselves up to kill Unbelievers TODAY, EVERY DAY. SO IF THE MUSLIM INTELLIGENSIA IS SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THESE ACTIONS, IT IS NOT WORKING.
Unfortunately the admitted majority of non-violent Muslims has little justification for speaking out from the Quran. And they could even be put to death for doing so. All someone has to do is say "Apostate." The fundamental issue seems to be that the Quran cannot be interpreted, questioned, without fear of death. It is considered the word of God in the Islamic world. So how does Islam emerge into the civilized world in view of this? And how are we to adjudicate the fact that Islam has been waging war agianst the rest of the world for going on 14 centuries, Persia, India, Egypt, Europe, Turkey (Islamics eliminated Christianity on Asia Minor by destroying and slaughtering 200,000 christians in 1922, and committed a genocide of over 1 million Armenians IN THIS CENTURY), Spain, Northern Africa, ALL IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. And those Unbelievers were "Put to the Sword" as commanded by Allah and their females killed, raped, and or brought into slavery. Can we expect Islam to become civilized when the Quran explicitely forbids it? Let us all hope so.
#26I've already responded to these points elsewhere on this site. Consistently repeating the same false accusations, time and time again doesn't prove anything.
By quoting these few verses completely out of context, you're ignoring the overriding message of the Holy Qur'an, that implores people to do good works establishing peace, true justice, fairness, giving charity and recognising the brother/sisterhood of every human being. However, if you had really read the Holy Qur'an - not simply looked for a few verses to try to prove your own biased views, you would know this already!
I have found there are many verses discussing or even encouraging warfare in other holy scriptures, including the Holy Bible and Hindu Mahabharata. Even in Judaism, Christianity and Hinduism there is a "significant number" of followers who create extreme sects or parties, aiming to persecute and kill others.
Yet I know the overwhelming majority of Jews, Christians and Hindus are peaceful people, their religions do not encourage violence, rather they discourage it. The same is true of Islam which means "Peace", if you really understood anything about our religion, you would realise that too.
War in the Holy Bible:
"And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:" (Deuteronomy 7:2)
"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. And ye, in any wise keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed, when ye take of the accursed thing, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it." (Joshua 6:17-18)
"Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun." (2 Samuel 12:10-11)
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." (Luke 22:36-38)
These are just a few of the passages, that could be quoted out of context from the Holy Bible to justify terrible deeds. They are not alone either, indeed there are many more, for instance most of the Book of Judges, is about smiting one's enemies!
Bhagavad Gita:
"O Arjuna! Only the very fortunate Kshatriyas get such an opportunity of a gratuitous battle which is a straight path to heaven." (Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, Shloka 32)
Bhagavad Gita is part of the Mahabharata. It is the story of the struggle between Arjuna and Duryodhana who has taken the throne, and established an unjust tyranny. So our hero Arjuna has to fight to regain the throne and re-establish justice in the land. An important aspect of the Mahabharata is about warfare. As such it could be and unfortunately has at times been misused by fanatics, to encourage violence against non-Hindus.
Actually if one looks at historical record over the past fourteen centuries since Islam appeared, one would find Islamic civilisation has on the whole been rather peaceful. Especially when one compares to Western "Christian" civilisation. More terrible wars have been fought both within Europe and by European and later on American imperialists abroad, than by any other major non-European powers. Check the historical records!
Once when Mahatma Gandhi was asked about Western civilisation, he replied, "I think it would be a good idea."
#27I have found there are many verses discussing or even encouraging warfare in other holy scriptures, including the Holy Bible and Hindu Mahabharata. Even in Judaism, Christianity and Hinduism there is a “significant number” of followers who create extreme sects or parties, aiming to persecute and kill others.
Paul, which religion is it that is currently producing murderers who are killing people and seeking to kill people in public places, such as planes, trains, buses, restaurants, weddings, etc. etc., all over the world in the name of their religion, and justifying it with reference to their holy book? It is Islam. It is a cause for concern when, instead of acknowledging this fact and saying that the first and foremost goal is to put an end to it, a person in a posiiton to do good, such as yourself, instead deflects the conversation to historical matters. Given that people are committing murder in such a manner in the name of your religion, one would think that you would have one top, overriding goal: to put an end to this.
What is it your community teaches to Muslim children so that they know that verses in the Koran, such as the ones quoted by der Alleswisser in #25, do not mean what they appear at face value to mean?
#28Paul, I really am pulling for you, I think you are a really good person who is trying to come to grips with his religion, and you are presented a very difficult framework for doing so and being safe. One such as you must know the real truth, you have seen what has been done in the name of Allah, and this is now, not 1000 years ago. You and the Islamic Intelligensia are the greatest hope of civilization, and of the 1.2 billion Islamics on the planet, the estimates I have seen is that 150,000 to 200,000 are of the Fundamentally Evil type. This still leaves a very quiet but nonetheless great majority who at worst are silently sympathetic to the fanatics, and at best know what is right and wrong, and seek to find a way to change things (not just shallow slogan change stuff like we are hearing about here).
The only way for this to happen is to "Grab the Mike" of Islam, in unison, and segue into the civilized world. There are, I am sure, many many enlightened Muslims such as you, and you must move past the disturbing verses in Quran, in the same way that Christianity left behind those you quoted above that were practiced hundreds of years ago. This is NOW. We have our nut jobs, the Timothy McVeys, the James Jones cults that all committed suicide for some mythical thing in the heavens (not sure if this is the same one that thought the Hale Bopp comet heralded the arrival of a spaceship that was to take them all to heaven, so they all committed suicide??). But we do not call them Martyrs, we do not say they are in Paradise with 72 voluptious houris and all the other stuff. We do not hold "Wedding Ceremonies" for suicide bombers. That kind of stuff is considered worse than ludicrous here.
I have known several Islamics, and as Winston Churchill said, "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities," and this has always been the case. Blending in, not fanatics, industrious people who fit in well. Apparently, for reasons I do not understand, this is apparently not the case in Europe, and that does not bode well for them, but that is just one facet of Islam and the rest of the world. I ask them, "why all the lunacy over there?" and they reply "It is just crazy over there." Now we do have our terrorist fronts here, like CAIR and some others that pretend to be decent organizations with no agenda. And we have many naive Democrats here who believe any goodie goodie thing they are told. They use their petrodollars to hire lawyers, as they realize America's soft underbelly is the liberal Democrats and lawyers, who are one and the same. They are great exploiters of such silliness as claiming "racial profiling" we indulge in due to these lawyers. The great fear is that if some horrific terrorist act occurs, these liberals will be swept aside and then there is the possibility of a massive nuclear response. Many have speculated that this is the reason Libya suddenly renounced WMDs, after a ship headed to Libya with nuclear materials that had a paper audit trail that lead to Quadaffi himself was seized. A real "smoking gun". And knowing that there is a "short list" on which Libya would probably be right after Iran, he abandoned it. Now this is the stuff of nightmares, and something no one wants for his children. But you must be aware that bin Laden claims that Allah has given him permission to kill 30 million (I think that is the number) "unbelievers" and that "nuclear weapons cost about $20 million each from agents of the former Soviet Union." And remember those 200 million or so Fundamentally Evil Islamics. They think that Allah has told them to do this, and they think they will go to Paradise if they are killed. Read the words of Aylatolla Khoemini if you do not believe this. And do not dismiss the above, as scary as it sounds, as it has been quoted as the nightmare of officials at the higest levels of the CIA. This is their nightmare, and no sane person wants to go down that road.
So Paul, Islamic Intelligencia is the key component. You need to assert yourselves in unison in the Arab Street. You and the others in the Silent Majority need to no longer be silent, and in a big way.
#29"One such as you must know the real truth, you have seen what has been done in the name of Allah, and this is now...". Many terrible things have people done in the name of God, but first it is important to put things into perspective and admit this has been a problem in all civilisations, since the dawn of time, it is very sad this is still happening today.
When people quote verses out of someone's holy book out of context, it can come across as if they're suggesting the whole religion is bad. All Muslims, peaceful or otherwise hold the Holy Qur'an as sacred, as devout Christians hold the Holy Bible. Muslims who become doctors, professors or even charity workers get their inspiration from the Qur'an too. The Holy Qur'an has only inspired me to become a better person. The problem is not and has never been the holy scriptures, but rather how certain tiny minorities have interpreted them.
Indeed while obviously I do not deny terrorists have quoted the Qur'an out of context, in a vain effort to support what they do. Far more quotes from the Holy Qur'an and hadith (accounts of Prophet Muhammad) have been used to discredit them. Internationally, the vast majority of Islamic scholars (Ulama) have refuted Wahabism and Syed Qutb's teachings, which form the basis of most fanatical sects. This was done openly, and books were published, about this even long before 9/11 - though they mainly circulated only within the Muslim world as they were written for Muslims, but many have been written or translated into English too.
Since 9/11 efforts to stem the spread of violence have been increased. Muslims no more want to live in a violent world than most non-Muslims. We are afterall first and foremost all human beings! Unfortunately, many non-Muslims living in the West are relatively unaware of these developments, indeed before 9/11 few had even taken much notice of Muslims or the Muslim world.
So called 'Islamist terrorism' was a problem to Muslims long before it became one to the West. Even today far more Muslims are the victims of these terrorists than non-Muslims - A fact largly ignored by the Western media. Take for instance the relatively recent hotel blown up in Pakistan, or the assasination of Benazir Bhutto. Even on 9/11, many Muslims were amongst the victims of the World Trade Centre tragedy.
http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm
We do take this problem very seriously, though much of the work to be done involves ensuring young people get the right kind of education and encouraging the development of the right kind of culture. These developments by their very nature happen quietly. Making loud public announcements while common in the West, in reality achieve very little, but good work ensures lasting results.
#30Very good, and sad to hear of the Islamic victims on 9/11. Probably none who died knew why. In the restaurant at the top of the WTC, folks looking, no doubt, in horror at the approaching jumbo jet, and did not know why.
The key is of course education. A very sobering segment is in "Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam" (Also widely available, netflix, etc.) Walid Solebat, a former PLO terrorist, is in this as well as "Obsession: Radical Islam's War against the West. This is an armchair back and forth between he and others, that gives a detailed analysis of the threat, and goes thru several verses in the Quran. In one segment, he goes thru how his first Martyr mission occurred, how he was to leave a bomb outside a church at exactly 6pm, but sees some Arab children playing nearby, and so throws this loaf of bread with a bomb in it on the roof. During the explosion, he sees it all, a sort of epiphany, and rejected his faith. He is the author of several books, and an obviously intelligent, well - spoken man. The alarming thing is that how one so intelligent, thru brainwashing since childhood, came that close to being a suicide bomber. And then he details how his cousins, other relatives are dead due to being suicide bombers, and then "What a waste of life," and for the first time in either movie, is simply at a loss for words over what has happened to his friends and family. Very sobering stuff this.
Soon you will see American troops leave Iraq, as this was never about oil or occupation, as the terrorists and Democrats have constantly claimed. And then we will see who was right, the ones who said, including Islamics here, that the instant the US leaves the place will fall into tyranny and shambles, because "Sadam was the only way to handle these people, for they are only controllable by a dictator. They cannot govern themselves." A very prominent view here, and yes, by Muslims too. So soon will come a fork in the road for Iraq and that part of the world. And there may never be another chance for Iraq, these do not come by often. And even if so, after what, a thousand years? They need to understand the opportunity they have been presented with, and if they do not take it, the consequences are apalling not just for them but the world.
And lastly, watch this take from Newt Gingrich, the Speaker of the House under GH Bush in the the early 90's as to what is at stake and the seriousness of all of this, at http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/03/newt_gingrich_d.php He is not at all the government inspected grade A card carrying free range Idiot Nancy Pelosi that the Democrats have provided with us today.
Cheerio
#31These developments by their very nature happen quietly. Making loud public announcements while common in the West, in reality achieve very little, but good work ensures lasting results.
Loud pronouncements are also very common in the Islamic culture, when Imams preach at mosques; but I have yet to hear of an Imam anywhere who preaches at a mosque that anyone who blows up a bus, train, car, or restaurant, in the name of Islam, does not go to paradise.
A key question is one I raised in #27: What is it your community teaches to Muslim children so that they know that verses in the Koran, such as the ones quoted by der Alleswisser in #25, do not mean what they appear at face value to mean?
The reason this is so key is that polls have found that 26% of U.S. Muslims are more radical than older Muslims. This compares to 36% in a similar poll conducted in England (same link). It appears that, unless Islamic children are specifically instructed in the reasons why they must not take such passages at face value, 26% to 36% of them find these passages on their own, and do take them at face value, becoming radicalized.
It should be an easy matter to bring these passages to the attention of children at an early age and instruct them that such passages are from centuries ago, and apply to that place and time only, and that such passages are never to be applied in today's world.
Do you agree?
#32"...I have yet to hear of an Imam anywhere who preaches at a mosque that anyone who blows up a bus, train, car, or restaurant, in the name of Islam, does not go to paradise." Do you often visit mosques then? If you did you'd realise the fallacy of your assertion!
If you actually visited mosques, you'd find that in the vast majority, imams inspire the congregation to become better human beings. As I've repeatedly stated - they condemn terrorism! A few famous battles that occurred during the time of The Prophet, are taught in mosque classes as part of the history of Islam. The verses cited above refer to that time. Traditional Sunni imams teach children these verses only applied specifically to that time and place, not today. Another classic teaching of Islam, regarding the Holy Qur'an, is that as a holy book, it has many levels of meaning. Hence it is not always meant to be taken literally.
As for the mad imams, they are an extremely small minority. Regarded as nutters and heretics by most Muslims. These fanatics created their own sects and do not come under the guidelines of the main body of the Muslim community, known as "Ahl As Sunnah Wal Jamaat", "The congregation of the People of the Way [of the Prophet]". In many Muslim countries they get arrested and their groups and mosques get shut down. Unfortunately, this didn't happen in many Western countries until after 9/11. By then they'd already became established in small groups. As they are not part of Ahl As Sunnah Wal Jamaat, we have no power to shut them down. As such, this must be the responsibility of law enforcement and the legal system. We in Ahl As Sunnah Wal Jamaat would be very pleased if the criminals responsible for inciting terrorism are arrested and tried. They are of the gravest danger to Muslims (especially impressionable youngsters) as well as everyone else.
I'm always wary of statistics. You've cited polls that state 26% of US Muslims and 36% of English Muslims are 'more radical' than older Muslims (the link doesn't load). What do they mean by more radical? What did they ask them? What was the sample? Are the statistics really representative? Former British Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli once said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." However, one thing that is true, many youngsters of all backgrounds are more radical than their parents. People usually start life a bit radical, then calm down with age, after gaining experience and learning wisdom.
#33If you actually visited mosques, you’d find that in the vast majority, imams inspire the congregation to become better human beings. As I’ve repeatedly stated - they condemn terrorism!
...Traditional Sunni imams teach children these verses only applied specifically to that time and place, not today.
Can you name a few imams who preach this?
Also - what about the Shiite imams?
However, one thing that is true, many youngsters of all backgrounds are more radical than their parents. People usually start life a bit radical, then calm down with age, after gaining experience and learning wisdom.
This isn't "a bit radical" - this is people who support suicide bombing. I have corrected the link. Please check it and let me know if you still would respond that "People usually start life a bit radical, then calm down with age, after gaining experience and learning wisdom."
#34My shaykh (spiritual teacher) Sufi Muhammad Abdullah (Birmingham, UK), Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (Zaytuna Institute, California), Imam Zaid Shakir (Zaytuna Institute, California), Shaykh Hisham Kabbani (ISCA, USA), and the Imams of the two local mosques I attend in Wolverhampton are just a few of many examples.
ISCA : http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/
Zaytuna Institute : http://www.zaytuna.org/
I'd prefer not to comment on the Shia, as a Sunni myself, I'm not as familiar with their teachings as I am with Sunni Islam.
#35As for the statistics on those who support suicide bombing, I'll stick with Benjamin Disraeli's quote, âThere are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.â I am a Muslim, I live in an area with many Muslims, suffice to say, I know plenty of Muslims - young and old. Those statistics are hyped and very inaccurate.
#36http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlrrAWCTRg The preceding is something everyone should watch as we reflect November 11th as celebrated in the US in honor of those who have fallen in previous conflicts. Europe survived the Black Plague but will it survive the Islamic Plague? Just hope the Americans, the British, the Canadians, ... will be there for you the next time, but one has to really ask oneself if you Europeans really deserve it, in the face of your weakness and this disease of Islam Apologesia, do you have it anymore, or are you just marching into oblivion as to what is happening to you. The below is from an email I sent to friends as to the above video and what it means and portends, so I thought I would share it with you as well. It may or may not do any good. Follows: Saw this last year, and it is a stunning performance. Those of WWII are going going, nearly gone, so talk to them when you see them. Totally different, and not for the better, than many of us today. Those Americans, British, and Canadians who died on the beaches of Normandy to liberate the French. Those same French who loved Saddam as a business partner. And watching a Discovery Channel segment on the siege at Bastonne, when Patton’s third army launched a counteroffensive to rescue the surrounded Americans, it was revealed that Bastogne was in Belgium. And consider that on September 11, it is now prohibited by the Belgian government to have a “Moment of Silence” for those murdered by demonic fanatics that day, as it would “Offend the sensibilities of Islamics”. Well they should be offended and told to go the h*** home if they don’t like it. Sad, very sad indeed.
#37every action has reaction.i think we are ignoring the ground realities,why are few muslims doing this?and are they muslims?no,they are not muslims.its a media hype and the flow is in islam's direction,why?becouse its week,these suicidal attaks and terrorisim is juz becouse there is no way out for them.who is osama?ask CIA.wht is 9/11 drama?a block head on earth will call it a muslim plot.i would call it war for resources.and the one with strong media and loadz of resoureces will grabe it.and thats what is happening.
islam,chrisitanty,jewisim and hindusism.these are just the name given to them.its infact the survival of the fittest.and islam is the underdog.its is we the muslim doing harm to islam,by giving way to others to use us on the name of islam.
if one think rationally would come to a conclusion that this is what the world is choosing for itself,its not islam or chrisitianty.its the averise of the world.from swords and dagger to the invention of weapons of mass destruction and other lethal weapons,star wars,what comes in your mind??
this world will come to an end one day by whome? By us.we the humans.how?like this..the way it is going on.we are discussing this the same thing.why dont you people discuss the bright sides of things why the dark?
#38This was a great post. I was married to a french person for 18 years - my ex immigrated to the U.S. at age 26 or so. My inlaws taught me much about the problem with Islam in France.
As you imply, Socialism and the rise of radical Islam have gone hand in hand in France - as they have in places like Denmark and the Netherlands and Great Britain. Socialist ideals and systems pave the way for radical Islam to take hold, as traditional systems are rejected, educational systems are restructured, history is rewritten and redefined, and multiculturalism taken to an extreme allows rejection and ridicule of traditional values and customs.
That is why Obama and his cronies are so dangerous. Their dedication to socialist ideas and agendas, and his personal ties and avowed loyalty to, Islamic ideas, is ignored at our peril.
#39The real problem is the American People who voted for this. Seeing one of those Obama sticker cars confronts us with the shame that the Liberal Mindset as spawned by a dumbed-down populace has transformed this once - great nation into. Entitlement, multiculturalism, victimology. An erosion of values, decent into socialism, going the way of Europe.
Europe was able to do this thanks to being protected by the American Nuclear Umbrella for the last 65 years. Didn't have to spend for defense, so all these social programs. So now in America we have 44 % of Americans who pay no taxes at all (and this was before Obama), and they are primarily life - long Democrat voters. So you have the Bureaucracy Class, kept in power by the Dependency Class, who, regardless of what Obama said, have no skin in the game at all. The Democrat AKA Socialist AKA Progressive AKA Victims party. They care nothing about the nation or what works, it is only about power and access to the taxpayers' money to buy votes with. It is easy to spend other peoples' money.
#40Agreed. And there is another component that is so important. . . the failure of our education system. I was some of the last generation that was taught the truth about things like the rise of Communist Russia, the damage done by the Nazis and Mao Tse Tung (I graduated high school in '79).
But about a decade ago, it became fashionable amongst American youth to sport Che Guevara t-shirts, as if he were some sainted hero. These kids knew nothing about him of substance or accuracy. The same kids can tell you precious little about Hitler, Stalin, the history of real oppression in places like South America, the Middle East, Southeast Asia....
I go back and forth between feeling it's more a lack of real education in our schools, or a lack of unbiased education - given the garbage taught in our classrooms. I think it's both. The Progressives control the classrooms, and we have graduated a generation of people who don't have the tools to discern real danger in their own government, or the knowledge to see a clear picture of history as it relates to their own lives...
So they elect a man with no real experience, based upon his charm and presence. His ties to extremists is something they dismiss because they have no real understanding of it.
#41
#42
http://www.watchislam.com/videos/index.php?catid=-1
http://islamalways.com/
http://www.islamqa.com/en
#43Ummm, to all the people who are saying that Islam means "peace"...uummmm.....you are incorrect, Islam means "submission" or "surrender" It comes from the Arabic word "al-Silm" which means surrender/submission. Although many uneducated people claim that it comes from "al-Salaam" which means "peace". That is far from the case...
#44Paul...you need to watch this video...it is a valid documentory concerning Islam and Jihad
http://vodpod.com/watch/1278094-the-third-jihad-
it will show you that radical islamics are working on taking over America and working on passing on the Sharia Law into America.
Umma über alles.