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My review of the Darwin chapters in Ann Coulter's new book is getting a lot of pageviews. At the moment, a Google search for "Ann Coulter Darwin" lists this site as the second entry.
And the comments posted with the review are fascinating. Here's one, from Doc Duke:
I received my Bachelor and PhD degrees from MIT and Princeton, respectively, and am familiar with these arguments, having read the sources some years ago. Ann has done her readers a great service by presenting succinct, humorous, well-documented prose for her readers, of which there are happily very many. I agree with her, and think you have well summarized her arguments (and those in her cited literature), Vik.
I have two children in a public High School, and spend a considerable amount of time evenings and weekends making sure (1) that they know the other side if I don't trust what they are being taught, and (2) ensuring that they know to keep their mouths shut so that this knowledge does not have a negative impact on their grade-point averages.
You will seldom hear from (employed) scientists on this subject, because they to not wish to follow, even in a small way, the path of Natan Sharansky in Russia. Consult his "The Case for Democracy" to see where we could be headed without effective voices such as yours, Vik.
Doc, thanks very much for the good words.
What I can't get over is that not only does Doc have to check what his kids are being taught and personally give them the alternative view when necessary -- since the schools aren't doing so -- but he also has to tell them not to let on at school, that this is happening. This looks to me as though free expression at school is not only not permitted, it's actually being punished. There's the state-approved view of things, and discussing of alternative views is punished. Even thinking about alternative views is dangerous if discovered. This is showing some of the characteristics of a state that lacks freedom of speech.
This exposes why the current judicial reading of the Constitution, as forbidding the government from showing support for the Judeo-Christian tradition, is dangerously wrong. That judicial reading imposes a preposterous state-approved view of things in which it is forbidden to say anything favorable about any religion in our own schools. This, in a nation that was founded on the principals of freedom of speech and expression!
Michael J. Gaynor provides detail on why this judicial reading is wrong:
Did the United States Constitution really require complete separation of church and state, prevent the United States government from acknowledging God and supporting religion generally, and compel the United States government and state governments to be strictly neutral as between religion and "irreligion"?
The answer is no.
The contrary claims are secular extremist myths that need to be exposed.
In 1947, in Everson v. Board of Education, the United States Supreme Court disregarded history and misconstrued the Constitution at the urging of the secular extremist minority and the expense of the overhwehelming religious majority in ruling that neither federal nor state governments "can pass laws which aid all religions."
In so ruling, the Court presumptuously substituted its personal view for the views of those who founded the United States, wrote and ratified the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution, and adopted the First Amendment and misued a much-quoted letter in which Thomas Jefferson had described the First Amendment as "building a wall of separation between church and state."
The First Amendment did not create a wall between church and state. It prohibited Congress from making a law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
The kind of separation that was intended is suggested by Pierre L'Enfant's plan for a national cathedral. In 1791, Congress selected the site to be the capital of the United States. George Washington, previously President of the Constitutional Convention and then President of the United States, then commissioned L'Enfant to design an overall plan for the future seat of government. That plan included a church "intended for national purposes, such as public prayer, thanksgiving, funeral orations, etc., and assigned to the special use of no particular Sect of denomination, but equally open to all." The Founders and Framers favored governmental neutrality among denominations, but they never expected government to be barred from supporting religion generally to please a tiny Godless minority.
The judicial reading is wrong and is corroding free speech in America.
#1
#2One of the greatest disservices that influential persons perpetrate on the public is useless or false information. The reason the Judeo-Christain-Islamic biblical creation story is not taught in science classes is that It Is Not A Scientific Theory, Postulate, Hypothesis, whatever; it is religion, religion, religion.
If you think that it is an alternative to the theory of evolution then why is it that you propose only the Judeo-Christain-Islamic creation story and not include all the other creation stories from Hinduism, Seikism, Bhuddism, Shintoism, et. al. I believe the answer lie in the motivation of people such as yourself inthat you see the world Only through your particular Judeo-Christain-Islamic point of view and No Other and You think everyone else should see the world as You Do. Now is that science? Is that sort of thinking going to solve problems? Would science have accomplished as much as it has in the centuries free-thought has flourished if it embraced such orthodoxy?
#3J. Day, even if Darwin is correct, it is a huge error to throw out religion. Secular societies appear to result in dropping birthrates that destroy those societies. Societies that celebrate God have self-sustaining birthrates.
From Foreign Policy Magazine: Yet, for more than a generation now, well-fed, healthy, peaceful populations around the world have been producing too few children to avoid population decline. That is true even though dramatic improvements in infant and child mortality mean that far fewer children are needed today (only about 2.1 per woman in modern societies) to avoid population loss. Birthrates are falling far below replacement levels in one country after the next -- from China, Japan, Singapore, and South Korea, to Canada, the Caribbean, all of Europe, Russia, and even parts of the Middle East.
...This dynamic helps explain, for example, the gradual drift of American culture away from secular individualism and toward religious fundamentalism. Among states that voted for President George W. Bush in 2004, fertility rates are 12 percent higher than in states that voted for Sen. John Kerry. It may also help to explain the increasing popular resistance among rank-and-file Europeans to such crown jewels of secular liberalism as the European Union. It turns out that Europeans who are most likely to identify themselves as "world citizens" are also those least likely to have children.
There is much more to the Judeo-Christian tradition than the story of the creation of the world in 6 days. Science can't yet explain the existence of the universe at all. By the time it can, it may well have documented that which we call God.
#4...This dynamic helps explain, for example, the gradual drift of American culture away from secular individualism and toward religious fundamentalism. Among states that voted for President George W. Bush in 2004, fertility rates are 12 percent higher than in states that voted for Sen. John Kerry. It may also help to explain the increasing popular resistance among rank-and-file Europeans to such crown jewels of secular liberalism as the European Union. It turns out that Europeans who are most likely to identify themselves as “world citizens” are also those least likely to have children.
A good bit of economics there too.... 'Christian' lifestyle tends to cost less to maintain, 'Secular' populations tend to elect 'statists' with higher taxes, in effect pricing those with 'secular' lifestyles out of the child market.
#5The intent of the separation of church and state is to prevent the establishment of a theocratic government. Democracy is impossible if our governing laws and our officials are beholden to the arbitrariness of religious ideology rather than the principles of an open and free democratic society. A government based on religious ideology does not provide a free and open democratic society. Religion circumscribes thought; it prevents Freedom of Conscience. Our human civilization has been at a crossroads for several generations now. We have the choice of returning to the atavism of religious ideologies and religious scripture as the source of "truth," or we can take a step forward and understand that our civilization's problems are the result of the decisions of humans and not due to some supernatural force influencing events in our world. We can make a better world now - for the living - rather than listen to the bunkum of religious "authority" who tell the masses to suffer through their lives because in the afterlife all will be better. Nonsense.
I cannot fathom the logic of the comments about the size of families, except that fundamentalist communities want large families because there becomes for them a large pool of persons which they can educate from the earliest ages in their insular religious orthodoxies. For the good of our civilization, governments everywhere should view this tactic as child abuse.
#6"Man enters into ethical world through fear and not through love"---Paul Ricoeur, Symbolism of Evil
A governing body of such a diverse Nation of faith should not run on the popularity of Religion. This Political Concept of promoting oneself as a fair minded individual representing all of America is divine and falsely represents one Religion as reigning. An individual who gains Government standing on the basis of Religion and enforces law based on this religion is ultimately his/her own God above all other valid beliefs in a Higher Power of their own personal choice. Governance and Laws should not be based one One Religion it is Biased and of a Supremacy idealistic.
It is a forced softer genocide of a beautiful circle of faith that is personal to each human being and should be respected as that.
Action by a Governing body based on pure love for humanity would be more welcomed and may ease some of the stress Governments and Lawmakers have subjected mankind to for way to long.
Religion has become a tool for Lunatics and Bigots. You do your own selves in the public eye and in the youth of America. Many of the Religious fanatics that run our Government and American media are not creditable enough to pull the wool over the eyes of the up and coming America. It is starting to become very unbecoming and shows up in the violence this country is experiencing.
#7If you think that it is an alternative to the theory of evolution then why is it that you propose only the Judeo-Christain-Islamic creation story and not include all the other creation stories from Hinduism, Seikism, Bhuddism, Shintoism, et. al.
Great point J. The answer is of course that the Christian Fascist that promote this kind of junk have no interest in promoting understanding and they certainly are not interested in promoting science, although they are more than willing to utilize the benefits that science gives us. To them science is evil as is knowledge in that if one begins to acquire them it clearly highlights the absurdity of the mythology of their so called absolute truth book. i.e al-bible
No the truth is they simply wish to repress society by having their belife system imposed on the rest of us so that they can legitimise their beliefs within their own mind and won't have to live a life of fear.
Anyway, thanks for your post.
#8Written by Barry White Crow Higgins
Sunday, 18 November 2007
I have been asked here today to speak of Thanksgiving from the Native perspective.
I am grateful for this opportunity. It is a however a difficult story to be told as it shakes the history most of us have grown to know. It had little to do with turkey, potatoes, or pie. Mid winter of 1620 the Americas saw the landing of the Pilgrims in the area known today as Plymouth MA. They were however not the first to land on these shores. In 1614 a British expedition had already landed there. When they left they took 24 Indians as slaves and left smallpox, syphilis and gonorrhea behind. That plague swept the so-called "tribes of New England", and destroyed some of the villages totally.
The new 1620 settlers were not farmers so their crop failed miserably. Were it not for the guidance of a Pawtuxet named Squanto they would have surely perished. Squanto also negotiated a peace treaty with the Wampanoag people. The next year William Bradford declared a three-day feast after the first harvest. It would later become a part of the myth known as Thanksgiving. The Pilgrims did not call it that nor were the Indians who attended the feast even invited. The invitation was only to Squanto and Chief Massasoit. They then invited over 90 brothers and sisters to the affair much to the distaste of the Europeans. There were no prayers and the "Indians" were never invited back again. So contrary to popular myth the Puritans were not friends to the Natives. For they believed they were the chosen people of the infinite God, granting them heavenly dispensation for any actions against a people predestined for damnation. Bradford later wrote "It pleased God to visit these Indians with a great sickness though in this regard God was not perfect for 50 of every thousand Indians has survived."
By 1641 things had really begun to deteriorate and the forth coming of the Natives people forgotten. A 1641 massacre of the Pequot's in CT was very successful, so much so, the churches declared a day of "Thanksgiving" to celebrate victory over the now heathen first peoples. This was the first real use of the term of thanksgiving to mark a day of celebration. The celebration included the decapitation of the heads of eighty Natives, which were tossed into the streets for the New Settlers to kick about as a sign of power and defiance.
Also at this time the Governor Kieft of Manhattan offered the first use of scalping as a form of bounty of 20 shillings per scalp and 40 for each prisoners they could use to sell into slavery. Permission was given to rape or enslave any Native women and enslave any child under 14. Law gave permission to "kill savages on sight at will". By 1675 the Native people under Metacomet fought back with vengeance. But even Metacomet would meet his fate at the hands of the Europeans when he was hunted down and killed, body dismembered, hands sent t o Boston, head to Plymouth to be placed on a pole on a Thanksgiving Day in 1767. Archive MAPA-Nevada
Early American history goes on to honor those who would contribute to the genocide of the First Peoples of the Americas. George Washington ordered the attacks on the six nations of the Iroquois despite the gift of 700 bushels of corn he and his men at Valley Forge received from the Oneida peoples. Survival of the troops was at the fate of the saviors themselves. Lord Jeffery Amherst the conceiver and first American user of biological warfare with his inspired use of smallpox infected blankets. Andrew Jackson late repeated this action with the Seminoles. Locally (here in New England) we know the massacre at what we now call Wissatinnewaq by Captain Turner against elders, women, and children. This history would repeat itself with the truth poorly documented and rarely spoken. As recent as 1967, the State of Vermont performed involuntary sterilization of Native females without their permission.
5 to 6 Million Jews and Gypsies were decimated by the Nazi regime in World War II. These facts are well remembered and the world mourns these events. Not to minimize these events or the souls of those victimized, these numbers pale in comparison to the events of the Americas. It has been estimated that over 100 million Native Americans were killed.
#9The only future for any modern democracy is the complete separation of religion and state, or else the minority religions - and most importantly, the effectively secular majority - feel disenfranchised.
The place for your religion is in your church/synogue/mosque. If you want people to convert to your mores - whatever they are - you can only accomplish it through educating them about your religion, not by governmental edict. In short, you can't legislate morality.
Otherwise, you are no better than Islamic or any other kind of fanatic - and it will lead to the same end: civil war.
#10Neo, I agree with you in many ways.
However, I think it's important to be aware of an important distinction with regard to your closing point:
Otherwise, you are no better than Islamic or any other kind of fanatic - and it will lead to the same end: civil war.
Muslim fanatics are dedicated to murdering non-Muslims. There is no large-scale equivalent among the followers of any other religion.
#11No - but the abortion debate is pretty close, and there is no legal compromise possible. The definition of when life begins - and what's more important: quality or quantity of life - is not one that can be answered scientifically.
That's where religion and philosophy come in - and where government has to bow out, except to guarantee each individual's right to choose for him or herself.
#12Again, I agree with many of your views. At the same time, the abortion debate example you mention, again makes the point I noted in #10. Per the site religioustolerance.org, The total number of murders or attempted murders committed with regard to abortion clinics, from 1989 to 2004, was 24. Compare this to 4,989 killed an injured by radical Islamists in just the past two months.
Compare it to the 142,174 (56 thousand+ killed, 85,000+ injured) killed or murdered by radical Islamists since 9/10/01. (Link).
There is no comparison. Islam is the only religion that produces such numbers of radical murderers.
Citing numbers from the same link (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com), Say Anything posts:
I don’t know how many times I heard or read the moral equivalence bunch, when they are confronted with the facts about radical Islamic terrorism, point their fingers and with righteous indignation say, “Well, what about the inquisition? What about the Klan? See, we’re just as bad!”
Aside from the obvious fact that civilization came to grips with those monsters long ago, the equivocation simply doesn’t work anyway. Here are some very interesting numbers, along with the related source material from The Religion Of Peace:
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. ( source)
More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source)
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (source)
19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source)
The notion that Islam is not unique among religions in the number of extremists it produces is comforting, but inaccurate.
#13I wouldn't be here writing this if abortion had been legal in 1953.
The law protected my right to be born and live.
In my casae, it was not a religious issue, but a state issue.
I have endeavored to do whatever I can under the law to protect the right to be born, and that is my choice.
#14Vic,
Previously I've stated that Religeon is, was and still continues to be an administration of select individuals to conquer, control, manipulate and murder. It inflicts fear and promises insane benefits after death or martordom. These Religious sects and I include them all, solcit wealth from their followers who most certainly feel scrutinized by their peers for not contributing. With this wealth they endorse Governmental leaders who will and most certainly do co-sign financial embezzlement.
It is a written documentation that gives certain individuals the authority to condem, enslave hearts and minds and commit mass murder. Ofcourse with the authority of God their hands are washed clean. This core of Religious lunatics continue to rule in countries that have citizens that have lost their will to stand up and free think, repudiate, what is in their hearts for fear re-proach.
Of coarse, here in the United States it is hard, based on platforms whether the people are voting for a President or a Pope. If an idividual wants the seat badly enough 250 million Christians compared to 70 million evangelicals defintely is not tough for a candidate to decide whose house he/she worships in.
Seperation of Church and State......The question is how long will the worlds Religious Robots take their blinders off and begin to fear the downfall of humanity more than the words of God's embezzlers, mass murderers, spiritual enslavement representatives?
#15Xene, that view of the subject appears to lump all religions together, and overlooks the fact, which I documented in #12, that Islam is the only religion that produces such numbers of radical murderers.
#16Vic,
What about the millions of Native Americans that were "converted" by way of papel Bull and than pronounced "conquered" by quill and ink?
#17Xene, to make sure we're talking about the same thing, please provide links to your sources.
#18You need only know the United States History and Read The United States Constitution.
#19You have quote marks around "converted" and "conquered," so it's not yet evident whether you are saying those things did or did not happen.
Please provide a link to document your statement that:
...millions of Native Americans that were "converted" by way of papel Bull and than pronounced "conquered" by quill and ink
Then it may become more apparent what view you are seeking to put forward.
#20Wow, sad to see so many misunderstandings that are continually perpetuated.
First off, the doctrine of separation of church and state means that government and other institutions are not supposed to support OR interfere with religious beliefs or practices. Our founding fathers knew full well the problems that the Church of England, with it's control of government and intertwining with the monarchy, let alone the religious wars that plagued Europe for centuries. If so, what beliefs should they pick and choose, and what if they disagree with yours?
While we do have a Judeo-Christian heritage, we cannot allow pubic institutions and schools to include religious beliefs, especially to the detriment of minority religions. Allowing prayer in school or forcing students to recite the pledge of allegiance isn't going to improve the profound issues that have existed in schools for decades. If the teaching of science, history, and biology in public schools conflict with what you want your children to learn and believe, then it is your job as a parent to not only instill those beliefs but to educate them why they differ and how best to handle it. If that's not possible, then you should consider private or home schooling. I so strongly agree with this principal that I also think that those who cannot afford such private or parochial school should be eligible for taxpayer vouchers that would be valid for any school. Too many parents just simply do not fulfill these kinds of responsibilities to their kids.
As a Jewish kid who graduated from a public school, which still had plenty of Christian attitudes btw, I survived with my beliefs intact and therefore have little patience for these kinds of complaints. I also have a problem with those who believe that the Old Testament should be taught as a history book, instead of the sacred text of *my* religion.
There are many of those who rightfully complain about their student's not being able to express themselves in school. Their rights do not end at the school door, nor is their freedom of expression absolute. Student led prayer that is voluntary and does not interfere with instructional time, I believe, is protected speech. It is teachers and administrators who are not allowed to express religious beliefs.
Those who believe that students should be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance need to re-think the last part that says "with liberty and justice for all" and realize that's it hypocritical to force someone to say it if they don't believe in it.
I have no problem with the displays of the Ten Commandments as some kind of a historical acknowledgement or monument; however as various denominations have their own English translation, then it should only show the original Hebrew text. This would satisfy the need for a historical, but not religious, display.
I get sick of those who insist that the scientific theory of evolution should either be taught giving "equal time" to pseudo-scientific nonsense or not at all in public schools. Science seeks to explain the nature of our environment and the universe itself. It explains the how and when, not who or why- these are the purviews of religion and philosophy. Does it matter how long it took it took, 6 billion years vs 6 days? Evolution and the Big Bang theory do not in any way conflict with my belief that God Almighty created the universe, created us as sentient beings who know the difference between right and wrong with a soul along with a biological ancestry that goes back to beginnings of life on this planet, or that God interacts with each of us in personal but mysterious ways. Those insist that it is "only a theory" need to also scientifically explain away carbon dating, plate tectonics, cosmology, and the entire fossil record.
Those who believe that there should be more religion in government should realize that the current hands off attitude protects your religious beliefs. Would you prefer, like most countries, to live under the umbrella of, and even pay taxes to, a state church who most likely doesn't share your beliefs? Imagine if public schools had to teach religion, but to be fair had to give equal time. Monday: Islam. Tuesday: Buddhism, Wednesday: pagan religions, Thursday: Taoism, Friday: Atheism, and Saturday: (insert one of a hundred forms of Christianity)-remember different religions have different sacred days, so it's Saturday or Sunday off, not both, and Sunday, Judaism. All next week: native religions of the eastern and western hemisphere.
Eyewitness Sylvester Greene spoke to the media at today's event, and described how he helped bury a young Inuit boy at the United Church's Edmonton residential school in 1953
"We were told never to tell anyone by Jim Ludford, the Principal, who got me and three other boys to bury him. But a lot more kids got buried all the time in that big grave next to the school."
For more information: http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org , or write to the IHRTGC at: genocidetribunal@yahoo.ca
Issued on Squamish Territory , 18 April, 2008, under the authority of Hereditary Chief Kiapilano.
...................................................................................................
Press Statement: April 17, 2008
Mass Graves of Residential School Children Identified
Independent Inquiry Launched
We are gathered today to publicly disclose the location of twenty eight mass graves of children who died in Indian Residential Schools across Canada , and to announce the formation of an independent, non-governmental inquiry into the death and disappearance of children in these schools.
We estimate that there are hundreds, and possibly thousands, of children buried in these grave sites alone.
The Catholic, Anglican and United Church , and the government of Canada, operated the schools and hospitals where these mass graves are located. We therefore hold these institutions and their officers legally responsible and liable for the deaths of these children.
We have no confidence that the very institutions of church and state that are responsible for these deaths can conduct any kind of impartial or real inquiry into them. Accordingly, we are establishing an independent, non-governmental inquiry into the death and disappearance of Indian residential school children across Canada .
This inquiry shall be known as The International Human Rights Tribunal into Genocide in Canada (IHRTGC), and is established under the authority of the following hereditary chiefs, who shall serve as presiding judges of the Tribunal:
#22
#23Thomas Jefferson, among others, nixed L'Enfant's idea. Given this highly relevant fact, the historically accurate and proper conclusion to reach is the exact opposite of that argued for here. Michael J. Gaynor appears to be someone who, when the historical facts are in opposition to his wanted conclusion, just selectively omits those particular facts to change the story. Either that or he doesn't know what he is talking about yet he talks like he does know anyway without verifying first.
#24It is child's play for a "christian" who believes in "God" and "trusts" the bible as their guide to get the hell out of politics. In Your bible it says dont swear oath or pledge, being condemned and of "satan". Therefor taking public office would be not be possible. Claiming you will do evil in order to Good would negate your entire book the "bible" form start to finish. If further states in Romans chapter 13.
1 Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For (D)rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
any claim by "bible believing christians" that they have any effect on an outcome of an election would only serve to vizierate their god and enthrone themselves as law and moral law giver. If a christian "trusts" god and not works he would clearly not vote at all.
The bible further states in Romans as well as james to judge someone else is horrible evil, and WOULD ONLY condemn himself
1Therefore you have (A)no excuse, (B)everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which (C)you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
so HELLO when you judge the rest of the world as evil -
English
indians
french
southerners
Northerners
germans
japanese
Vietnamese
koreans
Iraqis
Afghanis
list not complete
as evil and kill them because you are "Good" i think you have not read your bible.
If you hate the hater what do you become?
If you kill the killer what do you become?
Lastly your "bible" says you must "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,"
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
But alas you have all the excuses in the world to try and deny your "own" book, however we who have a mind know you are the biggest hypocrites on the planet. So stay out of the affairs of the world and go and read your book and practice what it preaches.
Ps
The american revolution - was rebellion against a "God" installed King so I guess it was not so Godly after-all.
But, uh, I, dont know, you are wrong, your dont understand, did God really say this, uh, I am good, I know, you dont, I am lead by the "spirit", you are a pagan, god will sort the dead out, just go read this book or that book and you will understand, you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! must believe what i do or
BANG BANG BANG
I love the book "One Nation Under God" when speaking of this. It was written by Attorney David Gibbs, Jr., and has some compelling arguments for this topic.
-N