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Yesterday I posted regarding the racism and hate preached at the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham, England, where a British TV reporter secretly videotaped preachers telling their congregations to hate non-Muslims, to physically attack homosexuals and women, to look forward to a time when Muslims will kill non-Muslims in a jihad, and to seek the overthrow of the freedoms, laws and government of England.
Is the same kind of thing going on at any mosques in the U.S.? A shocking report from noted journalist Laura Mansfield indicates that it is. From part 6 in her series, Jihad in Small Town America, published in October, 2005:
I first made contact with Sandy back in April, when the first Jihad Comes to Small Town USA article was published.
Sandy had emailed me, and she was not happy. She took me to task for implying that duplicity exited in mosques, and insisted that the kind of scene I witnessed in the mosque in Atlanta was an anomaly, rather than a regular occurrence.
She was quite clear in her opinion: “All of this Muslim-bashing is ridiculous. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Either you’re making up this, or you found one bad mosque.”
I emailed Sandy back, and we began a dialog.
We had a lot in common. Like Sandy, I had been married to a Muslim man, and over the course of a decade I had been exposed to some rather serious attempts to convert me to Islam, especially while I was in Cairo. And like Sandy, I had resisted all of the attempts at conversion, and had clung to my Christian faith. (I divorced my Egyptian husband a decade and a half ago when it became apparent he was sinking deep into the depths of radical Islam.)
Sandy told me that she is a registered nurse, working in a critical care unit at a large research hospital. She had been married to her Palestinian Muslim husband for 12 years, and when the marriage broke up four years ago she continued to visit the mosque regularly, for holidays and family life programs.
Their two children, Hussein, 16, and Sarah, 6, attended the Islamic day school affiliated with the mosque, and attended special religious classes on weekends. Although Sandy had never converted to Islam, she felt as if she were a part of the local Islamic community, and encouraged Hussein and Sarah to participate in mosque activities whenever she could.
Sandy was not willing to even consider that Hussein was being exposed to anti-American viewpoints at his school. In fact, one reason Sandy had enrolled Hussein in the Islamic school was to counter the growing anti-American sentiment that had become more and more evident in his father since the two had divorced.
“Because I’m not Muslim, I pretty much leave the religious instruction to my ex-husband and the men at the mosque,” explained Sandy in one of our first emails. “But the men at the mosque are good, God fearing men. I am not really worried about what they are teaching him.”
...Sandy told me later that in thinking back, her first true real concerns about what her kids were being taught came at a wedding for one of Sandy’s college friends. Her friend, like Sandy, had chosen a husband from a different religion. Sandy’s friend was Episcopalian; she was married a Jewish man. They planned a wedding that incorporated elements from both religions at a nearby hotel.
Sandy and the kids were all excited about the wedding, especially since Sarah was going to be the flower girl. But at the wedding rehearsal, Sarah had run away in tears when she saw the rabbi standing with the minister.
Sandy found Sarah hiding underneath a table in the reception hall, hidden from view by the long tablecloth.
Sandy climbed under the table and sat with Sarah. She tried to persuade Sarah to come out, but Sarah refused. She kept insisting “that man will kill me and mix my blood with his bread”.
Sandy was dumbfounded. She couldn’t imagine where Sarah had gotten that idea. After all, the only two strangers in the room were the minister and the rabbi.
...Every year she made it a special day - she would take Hussein and Sarah shopping one on one, and they would have a special day together. The entire family referred to it as “Mommy Time”.
Sandy explained to me how she went through the racks of little girl’s clothing at Gymboree, picking out a couple of sundresses, several pairs of shorts and summer tops, and a three cute little two piece swimsuits for Sarah.
Each year, Sarah was always especially excited about picking out her swimsuit. But this year, as Sandy went through the swimsuit rack, Sarah seemed completely uninterested. Sandy was a little puzzled, but wasn’t concerned. After all, she reasoned, maybe Sarah just didn’t like these swimsuits. She wondered if Sarah had perhaps gotten too old for Gymboree.
But when Sandy took Sarah into the dressing room, she was completely unprepared for the reaction she got from the child. Sarah completely refused to try on any of the clothing Sandy had selected for her.
Sandy at first thought that Sarah might not be feeling well, or might be hungry so she asked the clerk at Gymboree to hold the clothing behind the counter. She and Sarah headed for the food court. Sandy figured that after a kid’s meal from Sarah’s favorite fast food chain, Sarah would be ready to shop again.
But when they went back into Gymboree, as Sandy retrieved the clothing that the clerk was holding, Sarah started to have a temper tantrum. Sandy was more than a little embarrassed. She quickly selected one of the bathing suits, a sundress, and two shorts sets that looked like they would fit Sarah, and handed the clerk her American Express card.
Sandy was totally unprepared for the outburst that exploded from Sarah at that point. Sandy was in tears as she told me what her daughter had screamed in the store: “Mommy I’m not going to wear that. I’m not going to be a whore like you.”
...[Sandy] decided to try and get answers from [her son] Hussein.But when she approached Hussein, he kept insisting that Sarah was ok. Sandy told him that she was afraid someone had hurt his sister and that if he knew anything he needed to tell her.
After a few minutes, Hussein exploded. “Look, mom. You know where she’s learning this. You’re the one who takes us there. Why are you surprised? You let it happen!”
...Note: This is a true story. I have deliberately left out the name of the city where this family lives, and have changed the names of the children at the request of Sandy to protect them from fears that she has regarding her ex-husband and his family. I have verified the facts told to me by Sandy to the best of my ability, and was able to verify the curriculum of the school. I spoke with her college friend, who verified the events that occured at the wedding. I have also spoken with both Sarah and Hussein, and they have verified their mom's story. I have also verified court documents that Sandy provided that also corroborate her account.
Islamic schools are getting away with teaching racism and hate because they keep it a secret. All these Islamic schools need to be forced to accept monitors. Any Islamic school teaching racism, and hatred of non-Muslims, needs to get shut down.
And if the laws don't let us do it yet, then the legislature needs to do what it does with everything else - and come up with some new laws.
#1
#2Well to be very honest, you have islam-o-phobia.
#3Just tell me Vik, what is your religion. and what is it that u r so against islam.
Just tell me ur religion.
#4Just tell me ur religion.
That's an interesting question, but it's irrelevant to the subject matter, unless you intend to use it as part of an ad hominem argument.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Please explain why Muslim leaders do not preach that any Muslim who blows up a train, plane, bus or restaurant, is not going to Heaven.
#5It's perfectly obvious from reading Vik's musings that he doesn't follow any particular religion. He just feels a vague connection to "Judeo-Christian values" without any significant understanding of either Jewish or Christian beliefs.
This is highly relevant to the subject at hand, because his ignorance of other religions is reflected in his cartoonish and simplistic "western religions teach peace and love, while Islam teaches fear and violence" arguments.
#6Abdul, do you agree that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, restaurants, and busses, do not go to heaven?
#7Yes, I agree. Now could you please clarify for me which of the following will be going to heaven and which will be going to hell?
1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Homosexuals
4. Abortionists
5. Bill Clinton
#8That doesn't sound like a very serious response, Abdul. You make a joke out of people blowing up public places. In the joke you equate blowing up planes, trains, restaurants, and busses, with gay behavior, abortion, and Bill Clinton's sexual indiscretions. Is that how serious it is to you that Muslims blow up public places? You think it's about as serious as gay behavior, abortion, or the sexual indiscretions of Clinton?
It doesn't sound like you strongly condemn people who blow up public places in the name of Islam. In fact, it sounds like you support them.
#9I answered your question. You're trying to dodge mine while casting baseless aspersions. Typical.
#10I'm trying to dodge your joke question about whether Bill Clinton goes to hell? Again, not a serious response. And you don't yet object to my statement that you support Muslims who blow up public places.
#11Abdul,
In Christian theology, Heaven is not up for sale as it is in Islam.
It is not a sure thing.
Entrance to heaven is through esus/God's grace on Judgement Day.
The article of faith for most mainline Christian denominations is the Nicene Creed.
Here is the creed in Arabic:
????? ???????
?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????, ?? ??? ??? ?? ? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ??????, ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ???, ??? ?? ?? ??? ??, ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ?? ???????, ???? ?? ??? ?? ??, ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??????, ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????????, ??????, ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????, ??????, ??????, ???? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????, ???? ??? ???????? ???? ?? ???? ????, ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ????????, ???? ??? ????? ??????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ??????, ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??????, ?????? ?? ????????, ??????? ?????, ?????, ?????, ??????, ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????
And here is the passage that pertains to entrance to heaven:
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
And He will NOT be a Muslim!
#12I’m trying to dodge your joke question about whether Bill Clinton goes to hell? Again, not a serious response. And you don’t yet object to my statement that you support Muslims who blow up public places.
Is this what passes for debate on this site? You simply hurl a baseless aspersion and assume it's true if I don't dignify it with a response?
In that case, I accuse you of supporting the murders of Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Matthew Shepard, James Byrd, and Emmett Till. You also supported the Oklahoma City bombing.
Feel free to deny your culpability. But bear in mind that it may not be enough to simply deny it. If I deem your tone insufficiently serious, your denial won't count.
#13Hurling? I'm asking a legitimate question, that is on the subject of this post. And strangely, you keep finding a way not to answer.
In that case, I accuse you of supporting the murders of Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Matthew Shepard, James Byrd, and Emmett Till. You also supported the Oklahoma City bombing.
Very funny, but off-topic. Again, I note that you try to treat the subject of Muslims killing people in public places, as an occasion for humor.
#14Hurling? I’m asking a legitimate question, that is on the subject of this post. And strangely, you keep finding a way not to answer.
You didn't ask a question. You made an accusation: "It doesn’t sound like you strongly condemn people who blow up public places in the name of Islam. In fact, it sounds like you support them." Followed by: "And you don’t yet object to my statement that you support Muslims who blow up public places." Where is the question?
Very funny, but off-topic. Again, I note that you try to treat the subject of Muslims killing people in public places, as an occasion for humor.
I don't see any humor in this whatsoever. Just what do you find so damn funny about the Oklahoma City bombing and the murders of Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Matthew Shepard, James Byrd, and Emmett Till? I notice you choose not to deny that you support those terrorist acts.
#15Where is the question?
What a quibble.
Your efforts to change the subject indicate something about your views. One would hope that Islamists would be happy to rush out and proclaim passionately and seriously against any Muslim who blows up a public place. But offered the chance to do so, you work as hard as you can to change the subject.
#16Abdul is right. You made an entirely unwarranted accusation out of the blue and then tried to play innocent with the "I'm asking a legitimate question!" act.
You owe Abdul an apology.
#17You made an entirely unwarranted accusation out of the blue and then tried to play innocent with the “I’m asking a legitimate question!” act.
Not only was it not unwarranted, it appears to have been confirmed by Abdul's refusal to respond to it. I'm offering him a chance to say, passionately and seriously, that he's against any Muslim who blows up a public place. You'd think he'd welcome the chance to say that. But he's fighting not to.
I'm still offering him the chance to say that.
#18Dear Abdul,
Perhaps you can be of service and use this forum to discuss some of your own feelings and observations (and those of your immediate Muslim community) concerning the current political, social and religious climate in the United States.
The activities within a mosque are somewhat a mystery to most of us and it might clear up things if we could get a another perspective of it. (The language difference is one aspect of the mystery; the same can be held true for orthodox worship in synagogues.)
There are lots of questions that have been asked in this weblog: Can Sharia Law co-exist with secular law? What is the relationship amongst the Qu'ran, Hadith, and Sharia Law; does one supercede the others or are they all equal? What are the cultural problems and benefits with living in the United States? What sort of civic activities are Muslims involved with in your area? Is terrorism considered a passage to heaven? How are Jews and Christians truly viewed by Islam? What is being taught in the schools to Muslim youth and what sort of text books are they given?
To have a fair and balanced exchange of ideas, more participation is needed by Muslims.
Would you be willing?
A.M.
#19How was it warranted? He gave absolutely no indication that he supported terrorism. You made an outrageous accusation completely out of the blue, without any evidence to support it.
You owe Abdul an apology.
#20Randy, what are you trying to protect Abdul from? Are you afraid he's going to have to answer for himself?
#21Wow.
That's your response? Really?
I ask you to explain why your accusation against Abdul was warranted, and not only do you refuse to answer, you try to change the subject to my motivation for agreeing with Abdul?
It looks like it's beginning to dawn on you that your accusation is completely indefensible. That's why you can't muster up a defense.
#22Okay, very good. I don't care what your motivation is. What your motivation is, is your business. However, I would like you to let Abdul respond for himself.
#23My messages do not prevent Abdul from responding.
I take it I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for you to explain why your accusation against Abdul was warranted. And yet you were so insistent that it was warranted. Funny that.
#24I take it I shouldn’t hold my breath waiting for you to explain why your accusation against Abdul was warranted. And yet you were so insistent that it was warranted. Funny that.
Just read #8, where I did address that.
My messages do not prevent Abdul from responding.
Good. Let's give him a chance to speak for himself.
#25So now it's "quibbling" to say that I haven't answered a question because I haven't been asked a question. You're displaying that cavalier approach to reality again.
You continue to refuse to condemn the Oklahoma City bombing and the murders of Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Matthew Shepard, James Byrd, and Emmett Till. If we apply the "Rubenfeld Standard" to your non-response, that proves you support those terrorist acts. Right?
Or does your own standard not apply to you?
#26I haven't studied any of these guys: "Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Matthew Shepard, James Byrd, and Emmett Till." But I am happy to state that the Oklahoma City bombing was a horrifying and evil act.
Okay, your turn. As I said in #17:
I’m offering [Abdul] a chance to say, passionately and seriously, that he’s against any Muslim who blows up a public place. You’d think he’d welcome the chance to say that. But he’s fighting not to.
I’m still offering him the chance to say that.
#27I would like to say that it is unfair to say that the Imaams are not speaking out against this. They may have not had a chance to speak out about this. So it is wise to give them a chance to respond.
A great example is when the President of the U.S. has to make an important speech, he takes time to prepare for it to make sure he is making the right decision. President Bush had to make a hard decision to send more troops to Iraq and he is not submitting to the pressure from what others in the government are saying he should do or what the American people want. So this shows the importance of waiting to speak out about something until you are ready.
Also, the media is very good at shedding Islam in a bad light. So if there is an Imam that's going to stand up and say something most likely they will pick to interview someone who gives the perception that they aim to cover.
#28http://www.spubs.com/sps/sad/mp3.cfm?scn=dl&LeID=102
#29http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid
See Sunni Salfi View
#30By writing this article, Vik posed a valid argument that mosques that teach hatred, violence and racism should be subject to penalty and closure, and that we should have laws to allow for such penalties.
zumer, Abdul and bilal tried to change the subject by calling Vik "Islam-o-phobic" and by trying to determine Vik's religion.
But they did not address the primary argument.
So Bilal, Abdul and zumer, do you believe that we need laws which can allow society to penalize and shut down mosques that teach hatred, violence and racism?
The answer should be a resounding YES. And the same should apply to temples, churches, etc.
If your answer is NO, please explain your reasons.
#31I earnestly invited Abdul and any other Moslem to address some of the quesions and concerns posed by this Blog and perhaps clear up some misunderstandings. (Post #18)
No response.
Vik repeatedly asked if suicide bombers and terrorists go to heaven according to Islamic doctrine.
No respose.
All I see is quibbling over a trifle but nothing of any true content or illumination.
#32Dear A.M. Whittaker,
I have just read ur post# 18, and I have to say that thank you very much for asking about my religion, that is islam. Now will try to answer as much as i can.
So, ur second question was about the relation of Quran, Hadith & Sharia.
So, Quran is the truly word of God, while Hadith are the saying of our Prophets Muhammad (p.b.u.h.).
and Sharia law is the laws of an islamic state.
Now Quran is teh most Sacret Book, as it is the word of God and then Hadith.
Is terrorism considered a passage to heaven?
to be very simple and straight forwqard, terrorism is a passage to Hell!!
How are Jews and Christians truly viewed by Islam?
In the Qur'an, Christians are often referred to as among the "People of the Book," i.e. people who have received and believed in previous revelation from God's prophets. There are verses that highlight the commonalities between Christians and Muslims, and other verses that warn Christians against sliding towards polytheism in their worship of Jesus Christ.
Commonalities:
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved.
But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).
Warnings:
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).
http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/christians.html
What is being taught in the schools to Muslim youth and what sort of text books are they given?
About islam, the books are , Quran, Aunthectic Hadiths & Sayings of the prophet Muhammad.
and not only about islam, also science as I am engineer as well as muslim.
As I do not live in USA, so I cannot comment on the question reffering to USA.
and if u really need to know about islam , so just have a look in the follwing website.
www.islamtomorrow.com
and feel free to ask any question ....
#33Now Vik,
I give u a suggestion, why not u just make one more featured post, Q&A about islam.
Where u can ask as many questions baout islam as you like. and post it there. and then I will try to answer to your questions.
#34Zumer, you're quoting all the nice things from the Koran. What is your view of all the incitements in the Koran to kill those who aren't Muslims? Here are some examples from the Koran:
[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
#35[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
Battle of Uhud, Surah Al Imran.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
About the hypochrites.
Plz look at the verse 4.88 and verse 4.90. then it will be clear to you.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
look at the context,
this is about the people who came to Muhammad and pledged to become muslims, and as the climate of Madinah did not suit them , they went to other place with Shepard to be treated by the milk and urine of his camels, but instead they killed the Shepard, and flew away all the camels, by hearing this Prophet Muhammad pbuh angered and then this verse was revealed.
Look at 32 and 34
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
This is the Battle of Badr u r talking about.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
Plz look at the verses before this , it is about the people who were defeated in the battle of Badr were gathering money to fight against islam, ...
But in in the later verse it is said that if they repent ...
#36[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Some people – especially some contemporary non-Muslim critics of Islam – have tried to claim that this verse abrogates the verse “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” They argue that the generality of this statement implies that every unbeliever who refuses to accept Islam must be fought. They support their allegation by pointing out that this verse is one of the last verses to be revealed about fighting.
However, this verse in no way abrogates the principle in Islamic Law that there is no compulsion in religion. It may be general in wording, but its meaning is quite specific on account of other verses of the Quran that are connected with it as well as on account of a number of pertinent hadîth. We will be discussing these texts shortly.
The people being referred to by this verse are the pagan Arabs who had been waging war against the Prophet (peace be upon him) and who had broken their covenant and treaties with him. This verse is not speaking about the other pagan Arabs who did not break their treaties and take up arms against the Muslims. It is also most definitely not speaking about the Jews or Christians, or, for that matter, the pagans who were living outside of Arabia.
If we look at the verses in Surah al-Tawbah immediately before and after the one under discussion, the context of the verse becomes clear.
A few verses before the one we are discussing, Allah says: “There is a declaration of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom you have contracted mutual alliances. Go then, for four months, to and fro throughout the land. But know that you cannot frustrate Allah that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.” [Surah al-Tawbah: 1-2]
In these verses we see that the pagans were granted a four month amnesty with an indication that when the four months were over, fighting would resume. However, a following verse exempts some of them from the resumption of hostilities. It reads: “Except for those pagans with whom you have entered into a covenant and who then do not break their covenant at all nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them until the end of their term, for Allah loves the righteous.” [Surah al-Tawbah: 4]
So when Allah says: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)”, we must know that it is not general, since the verse above has qualified it to refer to the pagan Arabs who were actually at war with the Prophet (peace be upon him) and those who broke their covenants of peace.
This is further emphasized by a few verses later where Allah says: “Will you not fight people who broke their covenants and plotted to expel the Messenger and attacked you first?” [Surah al-Tawbah: 13]
Ibn al-Arabi, in his commentary on the Quran, writes: “It is clear from this that the meaning of this verse is to kill the pagans who are waging war against you.” [Ahkam al-Quran: (2/456)]
Allah also say right after the verse under discussion: “How can there be a covenant before Allah and His Messenger with the pagans except those with whom you have made a treaty near the Sacred Mosque? As long as they stand true to you, stand true to them, for Allah does love the righteous.” [Surah al-Tawbah: 7]
#37[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
This refers at the time when people of the book meaning Christians were forced not to imitate the muslim living styles, meaning to distinguish themselves, ans as they were living in the Islamic state they had to give Jizya a tax in return for the protection of their property.
[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
This refers to the promise that Allah had made with the Mujahidins who do Jihad (to strive/struggle in the path of Islam). That there will be paradise, and so on..
This promise has been made in Taurah (Old Testament), Injeel (New Testament) and in the Quran.
source:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp
and
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/kill.asp
#38well, Vik, some general comments about your quiries is that it seam that u just rearch for the specific words like "kill" and "jihad" in the Quran online, and and just paste them here (without looking at tahem.)
I have to remind you tht u have to look at the context, when these verses were revealed, u have to take care that wether theses verses are in general or telling u about a certain event.
and not only that u must not only look at the Quran itself, u also have to see the Authentic Hadiths , there are 6 authentic books regarding sayings (Hadiths) of Prophets Muhammad pbuh. e.g.
Sahih Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
and so on.
#39Zumer, I like your general approach, that the incitements, in the Koran, to kill non-Muslims, are specific to the time and place in which they were written, and no longer apply in today's world. This approach was advanced by the Muslim Sudanese theologian, Mahmud Muhammad Taha. I've posted about Taha here.
Let's see if we can be very specific, so as to make sure there is no miscommunication. Do you agree that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?
#40Let’s see if we can be very specific, so as to make sure there is no miscommunication. Do you agree that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?
Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses or resturants, full of innocent people, DO NOT ENTER PARADISE.
"For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land." [5:32]
Any more questions??
#41I'm very glad to hear you say this.
As you know, many Muslims want to impose Sharia law on the West. Let's take the example of the Danish cartoons making fun of Mohammed. One of our most precious freedoms in the West, is free speech. In accordance with this freedom, Muslims are welcome to say anything they want about those cartoons; but if they use physical violence, e.g. murdering people, burning buildings, destroying property, etc., to put a stop to such cartoons, then they are seeking to imposes Islamic restrictions on free speech, on the West.
So I'd like to find out your views on this. Do you agree that it is wrong for Muslims to kill people or to burn buildings or to destroy property in response to the Danish cartoons making fun of Mohammed?
#42I see your sentence modified what I asked -- you inserted the phrase, "full of innocent people." Many in Islam say that anyone who is not a Muslim is not innocent. So I'm not sure we agree yet.
Let me ask you again, "Do you agree that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?" Please answer without modifying the question, so that I can be sure we are in agreement.
#43So I’d like to find out your views on this. Do you agree that it is wrong for Muslims to kill people or to burn buildings or to destroy property in response to the Danish cartoons making fun of Mohammed?
Now look, vik, there is a Hadith that "Verily deeds depends on their intention."
You have to look to their intention, I must say those muslims who does such thing must have their heart broken by watching such things. To be very honest even now, I feel very reluctant or to say weak in order to respond this question, as u have raised such horrible point.
Vik, I must clarify you that We Muslims love our Prophet pbuh. We love him the most. We love him to the point that we will cannot tolerate such behaviour. Now dont say that I am becoming emotional.
Yes, u can have free speach about the teaching of Islam, Quran, about Sayings of the Prophet. You can argue, u can ask any question u want, we can have conversation about any topic in islam. Just name it. But by bringing such controversial topics, I am sorry, I will appose u.
It is just like if someone say bad thing about other person's mother. What will be the other persons reaction. Naturally he will say him back or knock him down.
Well now to your second comment that
Let me ask you again, “Do you agree that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?” Please answer without modifying the question, so that I can be sure we are in agreement.
the answer is YES I AGREE that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?
#44by innocent people, I mean innocent people irrespective of their faith.
#45By the way Vik, the topic of this post was "If the Laws Don’t Let Us Shut Down Mosques that Teach Hate and Racism - then We Need Some New Laws "
WEll, will modify it slightly, "If the Laws don't Let Us Shut Down Any Source that Teach Hate and Racism - then We Need Some New Laws".
Now, I perfectly agree with it.
#46the answer is YES I AGREE that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?
by innocent people, I mean innocent people irrespective of their faith.
You're putting the question of innocence back into it again. Many Muslims would say that the planes, trains, buses and restaurants they blow up, are not full of innocent people.
I think you want to say what I'm hoping you mean to say, so let's make sure we get this right. Do you agree that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise?
Please answer without modifying the question, so that I can be sure we are in agreement.
#47OK Vik, Now I will answer it your way.
The answer is YES! I AGREE that Muslims who blow up trains, planes, buses, or restaurants, do not go to paradise.
#48Excellent. I am very glad to hear you say that.
Now, to continue with the subject of the cartoons.
As you point out, you're finding it difficult to say that it's wrong for Muslims to burn buildings, destroy property, or kill people, in protesting the Danish cartoons.
I appreciate your making the effort to have this discussion, and I think it is useful for both of us.
Muslims must learn that physical violence as a means to impose their views on others, belongs to bygone centuries, and is no longer acceptable in today's world. Until then, it's just dangerous to have people around in Western nations, who want to burn buildings, destroy property, or kill people, in response to a cartoon.
We need to protect our freedom of speech, and if Islam forces people to attack that, then Islam is still incompatible with Western freedoms.
Freedom of speech is a foundation of our thriving Western culture. Islam must reform to embrace it so as to achieve successful, healthier, happier lives for Muslims.
#49infact Muslims are not taught to blow up trains, buses, or resturants. In my whole life, i have never ever listen in the mosque to blow up trains etc. or public places...
#50Vik, I have said it before & I will say it again, We Muslims love our Prophet pbuh, very much.
What we are asking, just this dont mock our Prophet and that's it.
So, to be loud and clear, I love my Prophet pbuh. So, I think this should be enough for u, how sensitive this issue is.
I am not saying that u cannot have free speach about religion. U can have any as many speach as u want reagarding islam and its teachings.
I gave u very simple example, If someone say someone says bad things about your mother, what u will do. Definately, u will retaliate, u will say him atleast the same thing, or if u loose ur temper u might knock him down.
physical violence as a means to impose their views on others, belongs to bygone centuries,
I want u to be oud and clear that, it is not allowed in Islam to impose our religion on others by force.
It is prohibited.
#51Zumer, in #32, you said that Jesus is not the son of God. You want to be able to have freedom of speech to say what you want about Jesus, but you would like to deny that same freedom of speech to those who want to say what they want, about Mohammed. Are you saying you want Muslims to have a privileged position for themselves, above those of other religions?
#52Vik, as u have raised a question about Jesus. Well, Vik, we believe in Jesus as well. We believe Jesus as a Prophet of God. and not only that we also believe in Adam, Moses, Jacob, Abraham, Noah, etc. as the Prophets of God. We Muslims as not allowed to make any difference in any of these Prophets in terms of status, except that Muhammad is the last of the Prophets.
and by the way who told us to respect all theses Prophets, Muhammmad pbuh. Muhammad pbuh told us to respect them, and have faith in them as the Prophets of God.
We are not supposed or allowed to make fun of Jesus either, by making his pictures.
and not only that I am not saying that U have to believe whatever I say. U dont believe in Muhammad. Its ok with me, because we are not allowed to FORCE others to become muslims.
and last, as far as freedom of speach is concerned, u r most welcome to have a dialogue between christianity, islam.
#53This has been a very interesting thread to read; however, I'm finding Zumer to be evading an essential question put forth to him. He's using the example of insulting a person's mother but the fallacy is that he's stating that the natural reaction would be to insult back or even hurt the person who said it. From what I've read about the Danish cartoons, random people were being killed and the original cartoonist and the paper's editor weren't even touched. Thus the example is null for the incident. (emphases are mine)
#54Good point, MacBrooks. At the same time, Zumer also hasn't been able to say that it would be wrong for Muslims to physically attack the people who wrote and published the Danish cartoons. It appears that in Zumer's view -- and he's strongly encouraged to say otherwise if this is not what he means to communicate -- it's okay for Muslims to kill, burn buildings, and destroy property, in protesting freedom of speech they deem inappropriate, such as the Danish cartoons.
#55well talking about falacy, i am talking about the human nature. if u hurt him he will hurt u back. as simple as it is.
Now if u want islamic perspective, then let me get things straight, if someone hurt u, then u r allowed to hurt in in the same manner and do not exceed in retaliation what he had done to u, and it is better to forgive , as it much better in the sight of God.
#56well, is it ok for americans to kill thousands of muslims in Iraq in order to find weapons of mass destruction.
is it ok for america to drop nuclear bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki.
well Vik , this is for u. anwer it if u can.
#57WEll may be i am wrong, but still i am curious, do u believe in God, or not.
#58Vik, as u have raised a question about Jesus. Well, Vik, we believe in Jesus as well. We believe Jesus as a Prophet of God. and not only that we also believe in Adam, Moses, Jacob, Abraham, Noah, etc. as the Prophets of God. We Muslims as not allowed to make any difference in any of these Prophets in terms of status, except that Muhammad is the last of the Prophets.
This sort of language is used frequently by Muslims (see this YouTube video for another example). It gives the appearance that the speaker welcomes Jews, Christians and Muslims to pray together. The language avoids mention of the following:
-- Islam rejects the divinity of Jesus (as per comment #32) and insists that Jesus was a Muslim.
-- Islam insists that Moses and Jesus were Muslim prophets.
So while comment #52 appears to say that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all welcome to worship together, what it avoids mentioning is that Islam believes that Christians are only welcome to worship as long as they reject the divinity of Jesus, and Jews are only welcome to worship if they accept Moses as a Muslim prophet.
Let's put this in context of post #43, where you say that you cannot agree that it is wrong for Muslims to burn buildings, kill people, and destroy property when they object to a non-Muslim saying something that is not acceptable to Islam, e.g. the Danish cartoons.
While you state that Muslims who blow up trains, buses, etc., do not go to heaven, you appear to support Muslims who kill those who say things that Islam finds unacceptable. You seek to extend the hand of friendship to non-Muslims, but only if they accept Islam. From your post #43:
Yes, u can have free speach about the teaching of Islam, Quran, about Sayings of the Prophet. You can argue, u can ask any question u want, we can have conversation about any topic in islam. Just name it. But by bringing such controversial topics, I am sorry, I will appose u.
That is, in your preferred approach, non-Muslims can say anything they want... BUT... not things Muslims forbid them to say.
That's not how we do things in the West. Here's how it works in the West. We get to make as much fun of Mohammed as we want, and Muslims can say anything back that they want, but they can't burn buildings or kill people over it. If you refuse to agree that it's wrong for Muslims to burn buildings, destroy property, or kill people as a way of objecting to things they say that Islam doesn't approve of, you provide evidence that unassimilated Islam is a danger to the West.
Islam must modernize.
Zumer, by having the integrity to participate in this dialog, you show that you are looking with genuine interest in having an exchange of views.
You are finding the contradictions between your own beliefs. On the one hand, you quote the Koran (#50) to show that "it is not allowed in Islam to impose our religion on others by force." On the other hand, you can't yet agree that it is wrong for Muslims to destroy buildings and kill people who say things Islam doesn't approve of.
You are looking for a way to have a successful meeting between Muslims and non-Muslims. To achieve this goal, it is essential for Muslims to find a way to proceed that doesn't require them to burn buildings and kill people if the non-Muslims don't act like Muslims. Because that's just not the way the world is. Not everybody is a Muslim, and Islam has to just grow up and face it.
#59You are finding the contradictions between your own beliefs. On the one hand, you quote the Koran (#50) to show that “it is not allowed in Islam to impose our religion on others by force.” On the other hand, you can’t yet agree that it is wrong for Muslims to destroy buildings and kill people who say things Islam doesn’t approve of.
Vik look in post #55, i have already said it,
you did not anwer about the post #56 & 57.
and now dont get angry but if i say that the holocaust of the Jews was a myth, then.. this is just a comment. How u will react to this. By the way this is not what islam says.
Just tell me how u will react..
So while comment #52 appears to say that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all welcome to worship together, what it avoids mentioning is that Islam believes that Christians are only welcome to worship as long as they reject the divinity of Jesus, and Jews are only welcome to worship if they accept Moses as a Muslim prophet.
I perfectly agree with this statement, with slight modification about Jesus divinity, I must explain Jesus's status from islamic perspective.
that, Jesus is a prophet of God, and was born without father, his mother was marry. and his is absolutely NOT a son of God, and he was not crucified but instead was taken above the heaven by God, and he will return near the end of times, and will kill the anti christ (we call him Dajjal). and he will pray behind a muslim Imam named a Mahdi. and he will deny the christian's belief that he was a Son of God.
as simple as that.
Because that’s just not the way the world is. Not everybody is a Muslim, and Islam has to just grow up and face it.
Now, talking about the world, I will tell u some of the prophecies:
1. that muslims will grow in number, I mean islam will spread throughout the world.(dont think by a war or some thing stupid)
2. and muslims will be in large number but will be weak.
3. people will deny the existance og God.
4. people will indulge in homosexuality,
5. strange disease will be fallen on the people that will be unknown to the people of the past.
6. earthquake will increase in number.
7. nudity will increase.
8. time will pass very quickly.
and so on.
If u r interested I am ready to tell u all about it.
#60Your #55 argues in favor of what I am saying:
Now if u want islamic perspective, then let me get things straight, if someone hurt u, then u r allowed to hurt in in the same manner and do not exceed in retaliation what he had done to u, and it is better to forgive , as it much better in the sight of God.
Right. So if we make fun of Mohammed, you can make fun of Jesus and Moses. You can't burn buildings and kill people over it.
#61Your #56:
well, is it ok for americans to kill thousands of muslims in Iraq in order to find weapons of mass destruction.
is it ok for america to drop nuclear bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki.
well Vik , this is for u. anwer it if u can.
You have now compared the cartoon riots to a war, and you are supporting the cartoon riots.
From your post #59:
Vik: So while comment #52 appears to say that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all welcome to worship together, what it avoids mentioning is that Islam believes that Christians are only welcome to worship as long as they reject the divinity of Jesus, and Jews are only welcome to worship if they accept Moses as a Muslim prophet.
Zumer: I perfectly agree with this statement, with slight modification about Jesus divinity, I must explain Jesus’s status from islamic perspective.
Well, there it is, for all to see - you oppose freedom of religion; you welcome to worship only those who convert to Islam.
You are providing additional evidence that unassimilated Islam is a danger to the West.
#62Well, there it is, for all to see - you oppose freedom of religion; you welcome to worship only those who convert to Islam.
Vik, u got it all wrong!!!
I am not opposing freedom of religion, well, i think u must have mis understood.
you welcome to worship only those who convert to Islam.
I think u want to say that I can worship with only those people in my area who convert to islam.
If this u want to say, then u got it wrong.
Vik: So while comment #52 appears to say that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all welcome to worship together, what it avoids mentioning is that Islam believes that Christians are only welcome to worship as long as they reject the divinity of Jesus, and Jews are only welcome to worship if they accept Moses as a Muslim prophet.
Well, vik if u want to say that if a christian or a jew want to become a muslim then he should accept jesus and moses as muslim prophets, I dont find any problem in this statement. as this is islamic teachings...
It is just like if a muslim wants to become a christian he should stick to the beliefs & christianity.
I dont find any problem in it.
#63in response of ur post # 60,
Right. So if we make fun of Mohammed, you can make fun of Jesus and Moses. You can’t burn buildings and kill people over it.
Now, Vik I must let u know that we Muslims cannot mfake fun of Jesus and Moses. As it our teachings that they were prophets of God & we muslims have as much respect for them as for prophet Muhammad pbuh.
That's it.
#64Oh, but the burning buildings and killing people part, you make no objection to. So much for your pretense that Islam is a religion of peace.
#65Ok, man, u want the answer, u got it. No, it is not allowed to burn buildings and killing people.
well, now, tell me, according to u jesus said that love those who hate you.
But u guys r doing the other way around.
America have dropped atomic bombs on Japan, destroying 2 major cities.
America destroyed Iraq, in order to search for so called WMD.
Now, tell me r u doing exactly what jesus has told u, (according to u), that love those who hate you!!!
#66No, it is not allowed to burn buildings and killing people.
Muslims are often described as saying two contradictory things at the same time, and this is a perfect example. You say flat out that "it is not allowed to burn buildings and killing people," but you spent the rest of this thread supporting Muslims who do exactly that. You can't have it both ways.
#67well, now, tell me, according to u jesus said that love those who hate you.
But u guys r doing the other way around.
America have dropped atomic bombs on Japan, destroying 2 major cities.
America destroyed Iraq, in order to search for so called WMD.
Now, tell me r u doing exactly what jesus has told u, (according to u), that love those who hate you!!!
This may be a new notion for you, since in Islam there is no distinction between the state and religious authority -- but in America the state is not a religious institution.
And that means that America doesn't have to turn the other cheek when attacked. It is very important for radical Islam to be aware of this. And it is even important for "moderate" Muslims such as yourself to be aware of this, given your support in this thread for Muslims who kill and burn buildings in the name of their religion.
Well-said, Vic. To get back to the article, it occurs to me that it might be really dangerous to limit "free speech" at American mosques. . . I feel more comfortable when we can clearly hear what they are saying, and see it for the evil and insanity that it is. Silencing the speech doesn't make the sentiment behind it disappear...
I wanted to point out to everyone that it is obvious that Zumer, in comments 35 and 36 for example, isn't arguing his own points, but copying and pasting from another source. (Check out how the use of English is perfect, while he struggles with it in other comments). I actually plowed through the whole thing, and it doesn't ever address the doctrine of abrogation realistically or truthfully. Indeed, the violent passages Vic quotes cancel out the earlier more peaceful, according to Muslim scholars themselves.
I point this out not to insult or embarrass Zumer, but to illustrate that even "moderate" muslims don't understand what their religion really says. A former Muslim recently pointed out to me that the Koran is written not in modern Arabic but in an archaic form that proves difficult for the average Muslim to comprehend. He says that most Muslims really don't fully understand what it says.
Formerly Muslim scholars repeatedly suggest that there is no moderate Islam: that there are only those who don't really understand the Koran fully and those who DO - and they are preaching violence. I don't like to entertain that thought, but reading comments like those of Zumer here, I have to wonder, once again.
#70To get back to the article, it occurs to me that it might be really dangerous to limit “free speech” at American mosques. . . I feel more comfortable when we can clearly hear what they are saying, and see it for the evil and insanity that it is. Silencing the speech doesn’t make the sentiment behind it disappear…
This is a great point, Mac.
We rightfully don't permit institutions to teach hateful things about black people, so it seems that we may have sufficient underpinnings to prevent institutions from teaching hateful things about non-Muslims.
Another possible avenue for discussion, is that it may be necessary for the law to keep up with the times. If, indeed, Islam is incompatible with Western civilization, then we must update our laws to address this.
Robert Spencer has a post this week in which he follows the evolving thinking of Frank Pastore, who wrote an article for Townhall.com defending Islam - but then appears to have thought more about it, and wrote a follow-up article for Townhall.com, saying:
The challenge of the West to live peaceably with Islam is made perhaps impossible by both the historical record and simply by looking around today. What do nearly all the problem spots around the world have in common? What dominant Muslim country has anything approaching real human rights? Where are the Muslim denunciations of violence, terrorism, genocide, and slavery coming from the many mosques, universities, newspapers and capitols throughout the Muslim world? For that matter, where are the condemnations of these things coming from the American Muslim community? There are over one billion Muslims on this planet and their collective silence on these evils is deafening and threatening. What are we non-Muslims to think, other than that the vast majority of Muslims must either support if not tolerate such things? Perhaps “moderate” Islam is merely a Western fiction created to avoid addressing the unavoidable and inevitable reality of civilizational incompatibility.
The loudest and most clear message we non-Muslims hear from the Muslim world is “Convert, submit to Dhimmitude, or die.” Come to think of it, I’m not hearing any other message. And that is what is so deeply troubling.
#71Mac, your post #69 is also very significant.
I actually plowed through the whole thing...
Is the thing you read, one of the links Zumer posted?
Vik - I did scan the articles at the links. But I was just referring to #36 - it was a long one! LOL
I am not harping on anyone quoting extensively from another source - I hope I didn't imply that - that's fine with me. I just think it's interesting that even muslims understand so little about these issues, that they prefer to quote another source, rather than try to make the argument themselves. I don't blame them. It's pretty hard to ignore the later - Medina - passages in light of the doctrine of abrogation.
I just finished an article for an online mag I write for. I am posting it at ASKEW, just so you all can see it now, since it won't be published at the other site until Monday. It deals specifically with the issue of censorship, and how it relates to terrorist agendas. Article here.
I still think it's in our best interest to let them say whatever the heck they want to in mosques - so that we can hear it loud and clear - at least then we know what they are really saying and thinking. Now, when it comes to children though, and what we allow to be taught in a school setting - - well, that's different. Allowing teachers in any school to actively teach hate is not education, it's indoctrination.
This doesn't surprise me.
There was an editorial two years ago in the NY Sun describing what is happening in Brooklyn as well as the texts and literature funded and distributed by 'our friend and ally' the Saudis.
Where is the hue and cry?