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As I've noted in the post The Memento Syndrome: Humanity's Short-Term Memory, we tend to think that anything that's relatively new in our lifetime, has never happened before. So this quote from John Quincy Adams on Islam, is revealing. From The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) by Robert Spencer, page 83:
John Quincy Adams on Islam:
"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, [.....] Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST.- TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.... Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant ... While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men."
(Capitals are in the original -- the boldfacing has been added for this blog post.)
The behavior of radical Islamist terrorists has nothing to do with Iraq or Israel. It's been going on since the seventh century.
Update 8-23-06: Commenter A.M. Whittaker posts the following quote about Islam:
Winston Churchill on Islam:
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
-- Sir Winston Spencer Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).
#2This is fascinating, Mike. I'm going to post about it later this week.
#4Why does nobody ever mention that Mohammed himself ordered the assassination of several poets who mocked him? (Like Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf,Asma Bint Marwan, Abu Afak ...etc)
I think that is pretty significant in the current context.
#5This site is full of conservative losers: Allah Akbar bitches
#7>
Too funny. And too true.
But let's face it. Those of us who identify ourselves as disciples of Jesus have not always been "little Christs", as the term "Christian" means. People claiming to live under that banner have killed many, including Jews, Indians, etc.
Now I am in no way equating Christianity to the maniacal nonsense we're seeing in the middle east or at the recent protests at the college at Irvine. People can say whatever they want about Christians, and we don't start setting our cities on fire. But we need to acknowledge that those of us who live under the Cross are not always the best examples of what Jesus was trying to say or do, either.
I once had a Muslim call me, a born again believer, "brother". Just like it's wrong for the far left to equate all Christians with the loons of the past, it is also wrong to assume that all Muslims are hateful, dangerous people.
However, the college students at Irvine are obviously hypocrites in the extreme. That Islam has a very vocal, radical element would be foolish to deny.
That being said, I think that Islam has historically been spread through extreme violence has been well established. You've inspired me to want to investigate the history described here a bit further. All the more knowledge to shut my far left buds up.
#8Thanks very much, pootie tang. I really appreciate it.
#9Thank YOU Vik, for a great web site.
#10This explains why you see far fewer black women converting to Islam than black men. On some level they realize that to do so would be volunteering to become a slave. neil
#11When did JQA say this anyone know?
#12Flipside, the book in which Churchill said it, was published in 1899.
#13flipside,
Here is a comment from Andrew G. Bostom which appeared on frontpage.com. There are a lot of references here.
#14Salaam Walaykum. Peace be upon you. This is how muslims greet each other. This is how Jesus (peace be upon him) greeted his companions. I am a convert from Christianity to Islam. Like P. Tang said, I have always been taught through Islam that we refer to jews and christians as "brother". In Islam we are taught that everyone else is your equal. Either our equal as muslims or our equal as in humanity. Well, just thought I'd say some kind words as Islam teaches me to do. I can't stop the bad things that are said about my religion and I can't stop the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam. (But I am encouraged to try, for sure) I thank God (Allah) for my beloved country America with its freedoms where I can worship God a little differently than my muslim brothers and not worry about being harrassed or injured because of it. Take care.
#15Cain also referred to Abel as brother.
#16The world has enough pessimists whitaker. hope i spelled that right.
#17I'm a realist.
#18that's good., shall i quote bible verses for quincy adams that promote warfare? jihad? I could quote new or old testament showing that god commanded his believers to kill every living thing, man woman and child. Even Jesus (peace be upon him) had some very harsh words about how he wigh that he already destroyed the people around him. anywayz........
#19Chucky, you posted:
I can’t stop the bad things that are said about my religion and I can’t stop the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam. (But I am encouraged to try, for sure)
You say you can try, but I don't see you trying. Instead of protesting loudly against the murders committed all over the world on an almost daily basis by your co-religionists who say they are acting in the name of Islam and on the instructions of the Koran, you immediately go into attacking the Judeo-Christian tradition. This is just like so many Islamists, who say they are trying to do something about "the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam," but then don't back it up with their actions.
I dare you to write a long post here telling Muslims that all the verses in the Koran that demand the killing of Christians and Jews are out of date, that following them is evil, and that any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, restaurant, market place, or other public place, is not going to paradise.
#20You don't see me trying?????????? You have no clue who i am or what i do?????????? o.k. i'll read the rest of your post now
#21Muslims, verses in the quran often are referring to a specific time and/or event during our beloved Prophet's(pbuh&hf;) lifetime. Obviously!! For example, a jew or christian tribe breaks a treaty made with the muslims and try to kill the prophet (pbuh&hf;), what do you expect the muslims to do? Any muslim that kills an innocent person is not guaranteed paradise! The quran tells us that if one innocent person is killed, it's as if you have killed all of humanity! Furthermore, dear friend, do you think muslims are suppose to kill jews and christians? That's not true and makes no sense. Besides muslim women, a muslim man can only also marry a jew or a christian woman!! Imagine, you think muslims are instructed to marry a jew or christian, and then instructed to kill them!!?? Nonsense!!
As for me mentioning judeo-christian verses, that's to combat the relentless attack on Islam by the media. If you want to say oh islam says this, islam says that, why can't i say oh yeah, judaism says this and islam says that. You have a typical attitude that the world revolves around you only.
#22I'm not sure of your reference to Jesus concerning destroying the people around him. Is that the true Jesus of the Bible, or the one in the Qu'ran?
Consider this; 1 Peter 2:23
#23Look at that - your supposed exhortation to Muslims to stop killing Christians and Jews in the name of Islam, includes a justification for such killing, and an incitement to such killing:
For example, a jew or christian tribe breaks a treaty made with the muslims and try to kill the prophet (pbuh&hf;), what do you expect the muslims to do?
I dared you to state that "any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, restaurant, market place, or other public place, is not going to paradise," and all you could say was that they were not "guaranteed" of going to paradise.
That is pathetic.
#24o.k., mr. darer. you say "any muslim who blows up a bus...is not going to paradise". You didn't say innocent people were killed.!!! So if its military on a bus....it's o.k., but public place= not o.k.!!! So, when i said if a muslim kills an innocent person, it's as if he killed all of humanity, that's God's way of saying (bad, no no, don't do that, killing all of humanity is not good...........NOT GOING TO PARADISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) iS THAT better for you?
#25The interpretation you offer of that verse from the Koran, is a well-known fake-out. I posted about this just last month: "Does the Koran Really Say that To Kill One Man is To Kill All Mankind?".
You say "public place= not o.k.", but that's a half-sentence, a phrase, that leaves a wide range of interpretations of what you might mean.
I dared you to say that “any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, restaurant, market place, or other public place, is not going to paradise,” and you refused to do it. Instead you want to talk about how it's okay in Islam to kill people who Islam doesn't consider "innocent."
The Islamists who blow up buses, trains, planes, restaurants, etc. believe that anyone who isn't a Muslim is not innocent.
Here you are, spending all your time on this forum arguing against me, instead of against your co-religionists who believe it is their duty to kill Christians and Jews.
As I said in #19, "This is just like so many Islamists, who say they are trying to do something about 'the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam,' but then don’t back it up with their actions."
#26You say I'm on here wasting time with you and not talking to muslims. Then, why would you ask me to make a statement ON HERE to muslims!!!??? Wiggle your way around that one now. You tell me to make a statemnet to muslims on here, so i assume you know that muslims read this, so I am not wasting time, and i am talking to my fellow muslims
I say kill innocent equals hell, and all you do is try to twist it like an attorney. you rock
I will get the quran verse for you......and bible verses if i have time.
#27I want you to make a statement here to Muslims. So far, you're not making it.
I say kill innocent equals hell
Sure. But the Muslims who blow up public places believe that Christians and Jews aren't innocent. So you're just supporting your co-religionists who blow up public places.
The Koran verse is already quoted in the post I linked in #25.
#28Well let me just do exactly what you say master.
more sarcasm........congratulations on finishing your 8 years of advanced Islamic studies in Qum, Iran! I doubt that you are knowledgable about explanation of Quran.
There are muslims who blow up innocent xtian/jews, probably. Yet, they think the victims are not innocent. yes. you are correct. Pretty well covered in the western media.
You said, "So you’re just supporting your co-religionists who blow up public places." Wow that's so intellectual of you! I guess your right. I better go hide in a cave somewhere and suppress women there.
#29To Chukee.
"in the koran the law says that mohammed is the best example of behavior for you. Marry 9yr olds (Aisha) Beat your wife (Quran 4:34) fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them(Quran9:5)... What an Example. The bible verses you talk about that have violence in them are Descriptive, The Korans are Prescriptive. Big difference!
#30Nice knowing you all. I see what u guys are interested in. Good luck in life. nef you will beg on the day of judgement that you could have been able to love prophet muhammad (pbuh&hf;) and benefit from him. unsubscribe me please.
#31Chuck, you started out by saying "I have always been taught through Islam that we refer to jews and christians as 'brother'," and you finished by saying that anyone who doesn't love mohammed is going to be punished on the day of judgment. It appears that your initial statement did not fully convey your views.
#32Chuckeee.
WOW...I really need to get in this...Chuckeee, let me first suggest you chcuk your religion for one that is consistent since 30 ad. Jesus` main message was love.
Now lets talk about the false prophet. Mohammad was a pedophile. The Koran says it and Muslims do not deny it. Muslims say he only married the 9 year old for financial reasons. Lets say a man marries a 9 y/o today, I think he would be given life in prison...even if he didn't have sex with her.
Your religion is bankrupt. Yes, Christianity has had its dark days, but lets not blame the religion as much as the catholic church. All the blood shed in the name of religion by Christians has been refuted as non-Christian. Islam, however, does not come out and categorically state that killing PERIOD is bad. You even say that killing military men are ok. I tell you this, the only reason Islam has spread in the Arab world is because Arabs could not accept a peaceful messiah. They wanted blood, as the bible states, an unruly and unlawful people.
I find it amazing that one year ago on September 14th the Pope mis-spoke and offended Islam and that ALL of Islam raised up in arms demanding an aplogy...though all over the world Muslims offend Jesus Christ and Christians and never once extend an apology.
In Islam, the term innocent is not placed on infidels, or non-believers. Therefor in Islam it is okay to kill non-believers.
Again, Islam is morally bankrupt.
#33Hey dimbo. You seem a little excited to see me.
#34Vik, for balance heres another Winston Churchill quote - "Terrorist Jews.
In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary"
#35Sean, there seems to be some question as to whether Churchill actually wrote this.
But, assuming he did, you left out a key part of the article you quoted:
We owe to the Jews in the Christian revelation a system of ethics which, even if it were entirely separated from the supernatural, would be incomparably the most precious possession of mankind, worth in fact the fruits of all other wisdom and learning put together. On that system and by that faith there has been built out of the wreck of the Roman Empire the whole of our existing civilization.
So the author of this article found the contributions of the Jewish faith to be "incomparably the most precious possession of mankind, worth in fact the fruits of all other wisdom and learning put together."
Contrast this to Churchill's views, quoted above, of Islam, that "No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."
#36Charles wrote: Salaam Walaykum. Peace be upon you. This is how muslims greet each other. This is how Jesus (peace be upon him) greeted his companions. I am a convert from Christianity to Islam. Like P. Tang said, I have always been taught through Islam that we refer to jews and christians as “brother”. In Islam we are taught that everyone else is your equal. Either our equal as muslims or our equal as in humanity. Well, just thought I’d say some kind words as Islam teaches me to do. I can’t stop the bad things that are said about my religion and I can’t stop the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam. (But I am encouraged to try, for sure) I thank God (Allah) for my beloved country America with its freedoms where I can worship God a little differently than my muslim brothers and not worry about being harrassed or injured because of it. Take care.
Charles, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with someone who practiced his beliefs the way you appear to be doing. But you have got to be aware that 99% of the terrorism in the world today is driven by people who identify themselves as Muslims. And I believe the folks here are trying to determine the motives behind those loons.
#37Of course the fact that Adams only had access to a translation of the Qur'an that had been erroneously, and purposefully translated by who else, those loving and truth seeking Christians, too elicit just that kind of an opinion would not have anything to do with what Adams thought would it. No, of course not!
As for the Churchill quote, most likely the fundies are just lying about that. That's what they normally do when something doesn’t fit in with their belief system or rendition of history.
#38Of course the fact that Adams only had access to a translation of the Qur’an that had been erroneously, and purposefully translated by who else, those loving and truth seeking Christians, too elicit just that kind of an opinion would not have anything to do with what Adams thought would it.
r. connors, please provide a link to back up this assertion.
#39'r. connors, please provide a link to back up this assertion.
I have a better idea. Why don't you get up off your butt and go look it up. You might actually learn something about the world and how it works.
#40It appears that you don't have a link to back up your assertion. Could it be that you made it up?
#41Really Connors, what's with the Christian-bashing? Is it amazing to anyone else here how the Christophobes out there can condemn Christians as the dangerous fundamentalists, yet ignore those who've actually slammed planes into skyscrapers or blown themselves up because THEIR sect of Islam was better than that of the people they took with them?
Geez man, get your head out of the clouds and THINK. WE are NOT your enemy. We certainly have ideological disagreements, but the vast majority of us who identify ourselves as "Christian" have no desire to physically harm you. The Islamo-fascists, however, have repeatedly and spectacularly demonstrated their bloodlust because of their complete, total inability to accept anyone with a different worldview.
Bro, in a nation where Christianity's still the dominant religion, your right to be an atheist, a Buddhist or a Wiccan is protected. Do you honestly believe that those whom you defend are nearly so tolerant? Try going to Saudi Arabia or Iran with your attitudes. THEN you will no what radical fundamentalism really is.
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools..."
#42Errors...
In my first paragraph, I should have said "...because THEIR belief system was better than that of the people they took with them?"
And "no" = "know". Silly me.
#43Well said, Keith!
#44"Is it amazing to anyone else here how the Christophobes out there can condemn Christians as the dangerous fundamentalists"
Keith,
I am not condemning all Christians, just fundamentalist Christians. Having grown up in a fundamentalist Christian home and church I do have some real understanding of what they are. As for Christians other than fundamentalist I have no problem with them as they have a complete and legitimate right to practice their religion in whatever manner they wish, assuming it is within the scope of the law. Or at least they previously did have back when the Constitution was still in effect. I may have ideological and theological differences of opinion with them but I don't have a problem with them as a people or religious enity.
"yet ignore those who’ve actually slammed planes into skyscrapers or blown themselves up because THEIR sect of Islam was better than that of the people they took with them?"
I do not ignore these kinds of people at all. In fact I have been paying very close attention to them for the last 30 years which, incidentally, it would have been nice if our government had been doing the same. Apparently though they had other things to they needed to attend to.
So it did not surprise me at all when Sept. 11th came. The thing that did surprise me though was:
1) People were surprised that it happened as the writing had been on the wall for well over 25 years.
2) That it had taken so long to happen which would appear to state that the people behind these attacks have limited resources to work with. Which would seem to be supported by the fact that their primary focus is in raising money through the various assorted fronts they have throughout the world that masquerade as charities.
"the vast majority of us who identify ourselves as “Christian” have no desire to physically harm you."
While you might be technically correct that even fundamentalist Christians may have no intent to harm me physically, the result of their actions do in fact bring great harm to our Republic. (Just as a side note America is in fact a Republic, not a democracy as has been commonly touted for the last 50 years or so) but I stray for the main subject.
The harm that they bring to the country is a result of their ignorance which you seem to demonstrate in you next sentence. So, while their intents may be honorable, although with many fundamentalist that could be debated, the result of their actions is not. Remember, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
"The Islamo-fascists, however, have repeatedly and spectacularly demonstrated their bloodlust because of their complete, total inability to accept anyone with a different worldview."
Now just what the hell is Islam-Fascism? Would you please explain to me what, as a political ideology and functional system it is? I will not hold my breath in anticipation of you response because the fact is you can't because no such thing exists. It is simply another tool by the Bush regime to instill more fear in the population aimed at those who can be lead around by the nose with simplistic binary platitudes. The real world fact is no such thing exists.
But too the fundamentalist, suffering from a lack of education in history, political science, philosophy, theology, economics and logic, and bound exclusively to binary reasoning it is easily interpreted as bad. The reasoning process goes something like this.
Islamo = Islam, which is bad and fascist = that is what Hitler was, so that is bad, so the resultant conclusion is that Islamo-fascism = Bad Bad. I would challenge any Christian fundamentalist to explain what fascism is beyond what they can explain with copy and paste.
Instead they support a regime that has taken over the country which is in fact fascist and can be readily shown to such. That is what I really have against fundamentalist.
“Bro, in a nation where Christianity’s still the dominant religion, your right to be an atheist, a Buddhist or a Wiccan is protected.”
Really? Keith, for one, I ain’t your bro. And two, when was the last time a Buddhist, atheist, Wiccan, or Jew for that matter, got elected to the office of the President or for any political office. And fundamentalist even got an opportunity to show their legendary tolerance for the religion of others with the election of Ellison of Minnosota, a Muslim, in the last election. Yeah boy, that was a sterling display of tolerance. I surprised the guys not dead.
“Do you honestly believe that those whom you defend are nearly so tolerant? Try going to Saudi Arabia or Iran with your attitudes. THEN you will no what radical fundamentalism really is.”
Oh, I have no doubts that those countries are very rigid authoritarian regimes, but to say they are based on Islam and the Qur’an is to display a complete lack of understanding of either.
#45Part I
Thoughtful, but misguided post, Mr. Connors. I shall elaborate.
You wrote: "While you might be technically correct that even fundamentalist Christians may have no intent to harm me physically, the result of their actions do in fact bring great harm to our Republic."
Please specify. Or is it our collective "ignorance"?
"(Just as a side note America is in fact a Republic, not a democracy as has been commonly touted for the last 50 years or so) but I stray for the main subject."
Thank you, but I know this.
"The harm that they bring to the country is a result of their ignorance which you seem to demonstrate in you next sentence...Now just what the hell is Islam-Fascism? Would you please explain to me what, as a political ideology and functional system it is? I will not hold my breath in anticipation of you response because the fact is you can’t because no such thing exists."
You could have held your breath. Really, this statement stuns me in light of your previous paragraphs in which you explained your vivid understanding of the threat we face.
"It is simply another tool by the Bush regime to instill more fear in the population aimed at those who can be lead around by the nose with simplistic binary platitudes. The real world fact is no such thing exists."
Ummm... then please explain to me this statement:
"So it did not surprise me at all when Sept. 11th came. The thing that did surprise me though was:
1) People were surprised that it happened as the writing had been on the wall for well over 25 years.
2) That it had taken so long to happen which would appear to state that the people behind these attacks have limited resources to work with. Which would seem to be supported by the fact that their primary focus is in raising money through the various assorted fronts they have throughout the world that masquerade as charities."
There seems to be a contradiction here. Did I miss something? First you say the writing's on the wall, then it's just fear-mongering.
"But too the fundamentalist, suffering from a lack of education in history, political science, philosophy, theology, economics and logic, and bound exclusively to binary reasoning it is easily interpreted as bad. The reasoning process goes something like this. Islamo = Islam, which is bad and fascist = that is what Hitler was, so that is bad, so the resultant conclusion is that Islamo-fascism = Bad Bad. I would challenge any Christian fundamentalist to explain what fascism is beyond what they can explain with copy and paste.
Connors, this statement's absurd, with all due respect to you. This "fundamentalist" Christian defines Islamo-fascism this way:
The ideology we are battling is based on an extreme (and perhaps warped?) interpretation of the Koran. Hence "Islamo". Fascism is an authoritarian system where only the government's (or dictator's) ideology and propaganda are tolerated. Freedom of thought and speech and religion are extinguished. Exactly how does this fail to describe the loons this country is battling today?
You've ignorantly implied that I am misinformed. Might I direct you to look something up that would, in greater detail, back up my assertion? If you're so inclined (and you really should be), you ought to check out "In the Shade of the Koran", by Sayyid Qtub (considered the "father" of modern Islamic terrorism by the author -- I'm sorry, should I not have used the word "Islamic"?). A preliminary review by NY Times columnist Paul Berman in 2003 revealed that this man's basic cure for the ills of human civilization is the establishment of a global Taliban. THIS is the philosophy of the people we are fighting. They want nothing but their religion and their interpretation of it. No fear mongering. No Muslim-bashing. Just pure fact. If you don't see this as Islamo-fascism then I'm not sure what else to say to you.
#46Part II
"Instead they support a regime that has taken over the country which is in fact fascist and can be readily shown to such. That is what I really have against fundamentalist."
Not sure where you're going with this. Are you referring to the Bush administration? How, exactly, can you say that WE are a fascist state but that Islamic fanatics are not fascists? Geez man.
Wire-tapping phone calls to Saudi Arabia is hardly fascist. But it does make perfect sense.
The PATRIOT Act does have some elements I question, but I know of no incident of anyone's civil rights being violated as of now. Secondly, in WWII things were worse under Roosevelt, and our nation's freedoms survived.
Umm... would I be too presumptuous to assume that you regard water-boarding as torture?
“'Bro, in a nation where Christianity’s still the dominant religion, your right to be an atheist, a Buddhist or a Wiccan is protected.'
"Really? Keith, for one, I ain’t your bro."
Um, okay. As you wish.
"And two, when was the last time a Buddhist, atheist, Wiccan, or Jew for that matter, got elected to the office of the President or for any political office."
I didn't realize that not getting elected to a public office was a violation of a person's civil rights, altho you have forgotten all about Joseph Lieberman.
"And fundamentalist even got an opportunity to show their legendary tolerance for the religion of others with the election of Ellison of Minnosota, a Muslim, in the last election. Yeah boy, that was a sterling display of tolerance. I surprised the guys not dead."
Uh, yeah. Sure man. Look, people get nervous when someone who claims for himself the religion of a dangerous enemy of the State and then also criticizes the government for fighting that enemy. I don't want to constellate, but I have to question where this man's loyalties truly lie.
And again, you contradict yourself. First you acknowledge that Christians don't want to harm you, but then we're so inclined to violence that it's surprising we haven't taken out Ellison.
“Oh, I have no doubts that those countries are very rigid authoritarian regimes, but to say they are based on Islam and the Qur’an is to display a complete lack of understanding of either."
Okay. I have never lived in those countries. But really, is that the point? They do not like Christians and Jews, even our "friends" the Saudis. Our beliefs are not tolerated in that part of the world. Islam, however, is.
That you appear to be more worried about us than Osama and co. is simply stunning. I'll grant you that fanatical Christians are no fun and, more seriously, could be dangerous if they got any real power. But ANY fanatic would be dangerous with power. The fanatics who attacked us 6 years ago have shown that they present a far greater and more immediate danger than anyone claiming to identify with the cross. Sorry but your posts, so far, indicate anti-Christian bigotry.
#47"Sorry but your posts, so far, indicate anti-Christian bigotry."
No, they indicate a complete disdain for Christian Fascism. Apparently, that is beyond your grasp.
#48"No, they indicate a complete disdain for Christian Fascism. Apparently, that is beyond your grasp."
As Islamo-fascism is beyond yours. And for this there is a reason: your disdain for Christians has skewed your perspective. You're looking for any rationale to back up your desired contention that Christians need to be stopped. Hence there is no Islamo-fascism, just Christo-fascism. Islamic extremists are to be feared, sure, but Christians in the United States are the real danger to our freedoms and American way of life. And this would appear to be the reason for your overly simplistic response to a rather involved post from me.
This position is not based on logic or facts. It is based on emotion. I've worked with people like you. Several, in fact. Their position is hateful, irrational and inconsistent. But they cling to it nonetheless.
What your reasons are for this I can not say for certain without getting to know you. But I can think of two possibilities: bad childhood/familial experiences with overly rigid parents; and a hatred for the message that humans aren't their own god, but rather that they need a God to reach down and save them. Of course you may have reasons I've never considered before.
But however strongly you feel what you do and for whatever your reasons, your angst is dangerously misguided. Because while we continue to fight the wrong enemy (Democrats vs Republicans, Conservatives vs Liberals, Latin Americans vs Blacks vs Whites, etc.), the demonic ideology and hatred of Islamo-fascism is just waiting for us to crack so they can cause even greater damage. I mean, look at how much we're fighting amongst ourselves since 9/11? I've never seen it this badly before. Perhaps the Civil War was the only time it was worse? Historians out there can correct me if I'm wrong. But they didn't have to do much and we're cracking and fracturing.
Their attacks seem to have finally revealed some severe issues that have been hidden for so long in our society. And we'd better solve these issues and unite or we're gonna have a really unpleasant 21st century.
#49"While you might be technically correct that even fundamentalist Christians may have no intent to harm me physically, the result of their actions do in fact bring great harm to our Republic."
This is one bigoted diatribe my friend, oh sorry i'm probably not your friend, just like keith is not your bro!
Let me quote one of our founding fathers of our great Republic what are you going to next R. Connors? Our founding fathers bring great harm too.....
Benjamin Franklin: 1787
"I have lived, sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more
convincing proofs I see of this truth, that god governs in the affairs
fo men! and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice,
is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been
assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that except the lord build the
house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I
also believe that without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this
political building no better than the builders of Babel: we shall be
divided by our little partial local interests, our projects will be
confounded and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to
future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this
unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom, and
leave it to chance, war and conquest."
Here is another quote from, founding father William Williams
"If a man could not swear allegiance to
Christianity, then he should not be in
government. "
quotes like these i hope will elucidate the matter that our founding fathers were Christian fundementalists. The kind of Christians you like to hate Connors,
"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."
-Justice William O. Douglas
"It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour"
George Washington Oct. 3rd 1789
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams 2nd president of the United States.
get the drift Connors. Christianity is our Culture, Something to be proud of by all Freedom loving Americans. If you want to be an Atheist or budhist or any other religion by all means that is what our Christian Forefathers set out to create, a free Republic, with the promise of Religious tolerance. But please don't trample on Christianity and try to stifle the free practice of it. Our government promised Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion!!!!!!!!!
God Bless
#50Nef, thanks for this excellent post.
#51This makes me wonder: it almost sounds like a de facto theocracy was intended for this country.
Also, were there any founders who deviated from the philosophies expressed in the above quotes?
#52To Keith: Yes there were founders who deviated from the philosophies expressed , however one has to understand the moral climate of the times, before making suppositions such as, "de facto theocracy".
In America today the moral fiber that is holding this country together seemingly by a thread, is just the residue of a once strong and robust cord of profuond piety that was widely prevalent in America.
A theocracy is a country ruled by preists in the name of God. Sounds like you are talking about The Republic of Iran not America. If you can't make this simple distintion than you missed the point of my previous post!
Ps. You are welcome Vik
#53nef...
Lighten up! I was just asking. Sheesh.
I do understand that the founders wanted Christianity to be the religion of the country because the people then would be able to more properly police themselves. I get it (and agree with it). But it could be argued that they were promoting religious bigotry and discrimination by more liberal folks.
#54keith sorry didnt mean to come off in bad way.
#55Aww shucks. It's okay.
#56so u want to know the truth
take it from a muslim
http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/
may seconds change your rest life from fire to paradise....
#57Global, totalitarian theocracy. "...dictatorship of the world" was the one quote that most stood out for me. Thanks mohammed ali for pointing us to that. Because if that doesn't back up the point we're trying to make here, nothing does.
BTW, something that may or may not be related to this, is the Book of the Revelation, in which a global authoritarianism develops under a leader called "the Beast", and its chief objects of hatred are the Jews and the Christians. Coincidence? Perhaps. Or maybe not. I do know that you guys are waiting for some great Islamic leader to assume global control -- the Imad Mahdi, or something along those lines? I also learned that at least one Palestinian terrorist-turned-Christian cited that the "666" symbol in that same Biblical book is actually a misreading of Arabic characters which stand for something like "God Is Great" (I do not have the details of this guy's book readily at hand, unfortunately). The exact translation/meaning of the phrase escapes me, but these characters are, apparently, tatooed on the foreheads of some Palestinian militants. The mark of the Beast will be applied to the right hand or forehead. Again, coincidence? Maybe. Only time will tell for sure, but it is unnerving.
#58Benazir Bhutto was killed today, Another Prime example of the Mohmetan Legacy!
John Quincy Adams " While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet (Mohamed) shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.”
Days before national election... That's what Islam wants for the world. Wake up America! Dar al-Harb vs. Dar al-Islam. It's written out for everyone in there own words. The Koran and the Hadiths explain it very lucidly.
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
Islam is a CULT OF HATE AND DEATH. An Ideology that paints itself as a religion of peace!
STEP: 1 for dealing with Islamofascism is Recognizing the Problem.
#59One thing: we don't know that Islamo-fascists killed Bhutto. Or do we? I've heard nothing yet on that. It could easily have been Musharraf, her political rival. Either way, indicative of the ends-justifies-the-means mentality that these peaceful and merciful Muslims seem to embrace.
(But in all fairness, my grandfather was Muslim and he was no radical. I also once had a Muslim call me "brother". So they ain't all into this psycho nonsense.)
#60Keith no need to be naive, who do you think killed 140 people last month. In the previously botched assassination attempt against Bhutto? Peaceful Muslims? Islam kills haven't you gotten used to it yet? It's on the headlines every day. Death has been on the Headlines for 1500 years since Mohammad declared Jihad on all Infidels. Just read a history book on the subject. Once one sees Islam as what it really is, an Ideology. Then you can start making sense out of all of this Jihad , and Islamofascism nonsense. There are alot of good German citizens in the world with Grandparents who were Nazis. Do you think they are saying that "Nazis aren't all that bad"!
Oh and about your comment "I also once had a Muslim call me "brother"
Don't forget it was Cain who killed Able.
Dave Hunt writes:
"Though people of good will naturally recoil from attaching blame to a major world religion itself, we can no longer afford such sentimentality. No longer dare we allow Islam to escape its undeniable responsibility. Yet former President Bush called Islam a peace-loving religion. he devastating acts of war by Islamic terrorists against the United States were greeted by naive statements from well-intentioned government leaders to the effect that we must distinguish between terrorism perpetrated by extremist groups and Islam itself which is peaceful...Several years ago Steven Emerson produced for PBS an excellent video titled Jihad In America. Its cameras went directly inside cell groups associated with mosques here in America where eager young Muslims were being recruited for jihad against the United States. Muslim leaders are shown giving speeches about bringing America to its knees through terrorism.... terrorists act in direct obedience to Muhammad, the Qur'an, Allah and Islam. While nominal Muslims reject the idea, all Islamic scholars agree that it is the religious duty of every Muslim to use violence whenever possible to spread Islam until it has taken over the world...There is a natural reluctance to accept any statement which seems to be a prejudiced attack upon a world religion. It is the fear of such prejudice which prevents the world from facing the truth." (Berean Call, Sept.19, 2001)
#61I want to appologize for comparing your Muslim grandfather with Nazis. All i'm really trying to get at is the similiarities in Ideologies. Communism has killed millions, Nazism has killed millions, Fascism has killed millions. Islam Has killed millions.
Recognize a Pattern here? Even if you are a peaceful Muslim, the Koran tells another tale!
“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)
And that is the reason we are dealing with Terrorism.
and before you make the apologetical rebuttal about not all terrorists are muslims, 99% of terrorism is committed by muslims. So that is a mute point. Terrorists are only acting out exactly how the koran commands them to act!
“Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)
#62@ mohammed ali, #56, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a public train, plane, bus, or restaurant, does not go to paradise?
#63nef...
I am glad that you apologized for your implications about my grandfather. That was most certainly over the top.
As for your comment that Muslims have killed millions, I will not deny that most terrorism in the world today is committed by people who identify with Islam. But that doesn't mean that everyone who identifies with Islam is a murderer or potential murderer.
Now what I will grant you is this, and muhammed ali should respond to this --- why is it that instead of regret for and protest against extremism from the American Muslim community, all we get are complaints that they're being treated unfairly and that they should have public foot baths?? THAT is something I'd like an answer to and if anything makes me question the not-all-Muslims-are-terrorists theory, that does. Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of the CAIRs of the world.
#64Peace be on all of you
saying All muslims are Terrorists is similar to saying .. all Christians belong to the Third Right ... as Chirstianity specially the Passion of Christ was being made popular during Hitler's Evil Reign over Germany that lead to the Murder of many Innocent Jews ..
or saying that All Jews are communists just as Marx was a the sun of a Rabbai and a jew
stereotyping is the worst of the evils in this world right now
and as for winston chirchil .. well ... id say he never understood Islam , where women donot Belong to a man .. but share a mutaul Bond of love and care .. were men are the providers of food shelter and clothing and for women ... and women can work provide for themselves but from the woman's wealth men have no share
a widow or a divorced women can herself go up to a man and say "I want to marry you" thats her legal right in islam
upon divorce the children will be the responsibility of the man and the man has to take care of them .. if the women wished to keep her children then he has to provide for their schooling , and food and clothing and home and for the woman as long as she takes care of the children
The property owned by a man has a share for his wife and his daughters and sons but a property owned by a woman belongs to her alone , thats islamic Law
Women 1400 years ago Under Islam had the right to vote for their leader, where the west saw this just a couple of centuries ago
where are a single old woman stood up and opposed the Caliph saying that your judgment is wrong and against islam .. the caliph accepted his folly and said that the woman had understod islam and he has not
where the rights of your Mother come second to God
where you mother deserver 2/3rd of your love and respect as compared to your father
where the daughter has the right to suckle her mother untill 2 years of age and the son only 1.5 years
where woman can be doctors , can be fighters, can run bussiness, can be administrators
but are not allowed jobs that could give men ability to manipulate them
where saying peace on you , is considered a great reward but a women is exempted from it if she feels like not to say it to a unknown person
where woman are exempted from Prayers during their mensis but dont have to cover up for the prayers lost.. but men dying or sick have to pray
where woman are exempted from fasts during pregnency and even while they suckle their children
where a adulter woman cannot be punshed not kept under arrest untill she has not given birth to her child and then the child has passed the age of suckling and has reached an age when the child can take care of itself
on the other hand there are no such quarters for men
men are obliged to fight in times of war.. for women its optional
Islam was the first religion to give the women the right to demand divorce for reasons other then adultery where as its not so in chirstianity
where its said... "Heaven lies in the feet of your mother"
.... "you and your wealth belong to your parents"
..... "never even say .. ufff.... to your parents even if they are non-muslims or they are cruel to you"
..."You and your spouse are like clothing to each other"
..."be gentle towards women"
..."if you find them getting sexually indecent .. scare them by a striking action"
..."never hit them on the face .. hit them on the back but littly not to cause injury but to show your anger (incase of sexualy indecency)"
..." "
#65so think, see and learn ...
as one of your most famous leaders said
"Donot follow the band wagon when every one is"
(Abraham lincon)
:) ... and may peace be on all of you
#66anonymous,
What are your views on so-called honor killings of women by members of their own families?
#67that is forbiden and is not rooted in Islam ..
Islamic Law for Killing or Capital Punishment is somewhat as follows
No one cann be Killed but for Adultery or as Punishment for Un-just Killing
(i say Unjust since the act of Capital Punishment or death scentence is also killing but is justified when given for Murder, and killing of Traitors to state , killing of a enemy combatents during War or Battle)
the Act of Carrying out the Death scentence and the Scentencing of the Death Penalty is the Sole responsibilty and Right of the State and no indavidual can carry out this act.
so if any one does otherwise is himself/herself a murderer... even if they killed a someone for comminting adultery or killed someone coz he/she killed his or her father or mother and so on...
....
just for your Information ... Honor Killing is not just limited to Women , men have also been a target of Honor killings , the roots of this is in the Local Traditions of South asian Countries and date back to pre-islamic times in south Asia .. and have never been a part of Islam
Traditions other then honor killings include
1. Sati- burning of the Widow with the husbands body (Hinduism)
2. Denying the right for a Divorcey or a Widow to marry (hinduism)
3. Marrying women against their will (hinduism)
4. Dowry by the Womans family to the man's (local Traditions contrary to islamic tradition where the man gives the dowry to the woman)
and so forth...
#68Fighting about who's right and who's wrong between Christians and Islam is just plain silly. Can't you people see that we (the public of the world) have been conditioned to become racist against one another? Islam-facists & Christo-facists? There are both, yes. They are the ones the rest of us call "fools".
There's a reason why there is a suggestive racism between the two groups, there's a reason why "some" want us to hate each other. Can't you see that? Did 9/11's hoax not teach us ANYTHING? And anyone who buys into it, isn't thinking on their own. If you can't see past the flags, television news, holy books, gender and color of one's skin, don't you dare claim to be violent-less because your words and outlook are harmful. Its these same racists that are going to vote in our next black/woman/Christian President! This is the most racist candidate race I've ever witnessed!
Stop watching MAINSTREAM PEOPLE! THEY WANT US TO HATE EACH OTHER!!!!
(And if you don't want to be killed by radical Islams...then stay away from their territories! If you don't want your hand bitten, then don't put it in the hungry dog's mouth! And as for radical-Christians....well....show me those groups that constantly kill in the name of Jesus Christ. Last time I checked, America is a choice vacation spot for others around the world, which must mean its pretty safe to visit.)
Don't shoot the Messenger.
Why should be peace be upon an evil prophet who destroyed the peace of others. THis is plain hypocrisy and is dangerous. Had that evil been alive today he would have been in handed death sentence or would be hiding in some gutter hole.
#70and how many were murdered in cold blood .. by the Prophet or by his hand peace and Blessing of God be Upon him ...
and how many were murdered in cold blood by the Jewish Prophets during their war against the Infidels and the idolators... may Peace and blessings of God be upon them
and who were the people who had the head of John the Baptist presented on a platter and are accused of Crucifing Jesus may Peace and Blessings of God the Almighty be Upon both John the Baptist .. and Jesus the Christ and True Massiah???
#71Islam means evil at heart. Women are nothing but pure sex objects tied inside a burqa and enjoyed whenever Allah's monster want it. Shame on Islam
#72Peace be upon ... is just another way of calling for or acknowledging the person's submission to Islam. Westerners should not be deceived. Muslims don't mean it in the same way that westerners do.
When they've said it to me, I simply reply: and may the liberties of western civilization be upon you. I've seen the look in the eye of several after that reply, and we both knew in an instant and unspoken way where each stood in the battle of our times.
#73Yes the whole problem is submission to Evil Prophet's Evil Verses. Where is then the question of peace? Murder, lust and loot are the goodies the prophet is urging upon his faithfuls to practice!
#74i wonder if you have ever seen A Muslim one of those Fanatic ones.. one of those that you hate.. ever hating you back ..
ever saying i'll of any of the Prophets ..
ever read a muslim published or Muslim written book that curses JEsus PEACE BE UPON HIM .. or MOSES PEACE BE UPON HIM ..
ever seen their depictions or even good religiously made pictures in any Muslim News Paper...
Ever Hear a Muslim say I;ll to Yahweh or Jehova or God.. all are but One .. and He is the True Living God.. and JEsus and Moses and Mohammed Peace be Upon them All were His True Prophets and we are not allowed to Distinguish on who is greater or who is not..
hmm ..But the problem is that you keep avoiding my question ...
my Uestion has been and will remain ... as to what Jews say of the Prophet Jesus WHo was Born to the Blessed marry .. about Home God says in the Quran that he Chose Marry for this Miracle and the Birth of Messiah over all Women of the WOrld those born and those to come... and that he chose the Family of Amron over the Families of the World .. .
what do you Say of the Virgin Mary the Blessed Mary the Women who gave Birth to your Messiah and our Messiah the True Prophet Jesus may God's Blessing be Upon him and his Mother the Pure one.. the Devout of God
and Her Son who was Protected by God against All Evils and against Temptation of Satan .. what say you of Him
#75I know many Muslims who laugh at Allah jokes. The minute anything is uttered about the Evil Prophet they draw the knife.
The evil bastard was like everyone else. He decayed and died. His cruelty touched such a peak that the bastard had to be poisoned by one of his jewess mistress. The evil had plenty of women who were snached after kiling their husbands.
#76.... i am not angery at the Curses that you Utter... these Are Desperate WOrds by a Desperate person .. .
the Same Prophet that you Curse is the same Person who weeped when Romans Lost from the Persians ... for the Christians Belive in the True God and Jesus His True Prophet
the Same Prophet when was Poisoned or atleast Tried by the Jews of Khaibar and many of His Companions Died... asked them why they had done so .. they Reploed .. to Protect Ourselves ... and no harm was done to them ..
and they were resettled in what is Present Day Basra and Kufa
But what i see here is that you Avoide my Question and Keep Cursing angrily .. Keep Swearing .. where i havent Cursed once in my last Many months of Posts.... if Tollerence is the Issue you surely have made it Clear its an Issue with whom...
what i asked you is a simple Question .. i will Willlingly and with Love Die for Jesus Peace Be Upon Him ... i Will Most Dearly give my eyes and my limbs for him ... he is the True Messiah .. the King of the Jews the one Promised by God in the Scriptures... and the One who will Return to Fulfill the Prophisies. ... I Wish he comes Tommorow back on Earth... The True Jesus of Nazarith . the One BOrn of Virgin Birth .. . of the Beloved of God... and a good son to his Poous Mother.. the Virgin Mary who spent her Life in Worship of Lord The True God of Isreal ... and THe Creator of the Heavens and the Earth ..
It is an Article of Faith of Islam to Belive In Jesus ... and it says in the QUran about him in the Chapter Called Mary or the Ture Jewish Name (Mariam) QUran Chapter 19:16-22
AND CALL to mind, through this divine Book, Mary. Lo! She withdrew from her family to an eastern place
and kept herself in seclusion from them, whereupon We sent unto her Our angel of revelation, who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being.
She exclaimed: "Verily, 'I seek refuge from thee with the Most Gracious! [Approach me not] if thou art conscious of Him!"
[The angel] answered: "I' am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, [who says,] `I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.'"
Said she: "How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me? - for, never have I been a loose woman!"
[The angel] answered: "Thus it is; [but] thy Sustainer says, `This is easy for Me; and [thou shalt have a son,] so that We might make him a symbol unto mankind and an act of grace from US. And it was a thing decreed [by God]:
and in time she conceived him, and then she withdrew with him to a far-off place.
What say you Jesus the Son of Mary the Virgin
The Pure and Kind Of Nature and Jesus for Whom God says
3:45 Lo! The angels said: "O Mary! Behold, God sends thee the glad tiding, through a word from Him, [of a son] who shall become known as the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, of great honour in this world and in the life to come, and [shall be] of those who are drawn near unto God.
and
3:55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ
5:46 And We caused Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those [earlier prophets], confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah; and We vouchsafed unto him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious.
What say You Jews of Jesus of Nazreth the True Messiah THe Christ
#77THe LAst Two Verses had HTML tags so im Re-Writing them to remoce the HTML
3:55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ
5:46 And We Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those [earlier prophets], confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah; and We vouchsafed unto him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious.
What say You Jews of Jesus of Nazreth the True Messiah THe Christ
#78ANd Before you ask me a QUestion it is an article of Faith for Muslims to Belive in Moses and the COmmandments Given to Him by Lord God the True GOd ..
and if one belives not in them .. then He seezes to be a Muslim ..
DO answer my QUestion
#79"And two, when was the last time a Buddhist, atheist, Wiccan, or Jew for that matter, got elected to the office of the President or for any political office.”
Over 10 per cent of Congress is Jewish; the total US Jewish population is around 5.2 million and the total US population is over 300 million.
You do the math.
Many of the Jewish legislators are not practicing Jews.
We have had only one Catholic President despite the fact that 1 in 20 Americans is Roman Catholic, but there are lots of Senators/Representatives/Cabinet members who are Roman Catholics.
We have Mormans and Christian Scientists and Quakers representing this country in very powerful positions.
Currently, we have one Muslim in the House of Representatives as well as two Buddhists. (Keith Ellison, Hank Johnson, and Mazie Hirano.)
Rep. Pete Stark is a self-proclaimed nontheist (atheist/agnostic).
And I have just skimmed the surface...
Now you are enlightened.
Ooohhhmmmm.
#80As per Jesus in the Qu'ran:
After having read the Qu'ran including passages relating to Jesus and Mary, I can only say that most of what is cited is at best, fiction, at worst, heresy and blasphemy. There are events which are described that never ocurred in the Gospels, which should be the definitive source for His life and works. The'spin' is mind-boggling. Muslims should read the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) thoroughly in the Holy Bible - New Testament.
Unfortunately, I haven't the time to discuss Christian theology at length at this time, but perhaps some of the Christians out there can read the following and comment on it. The Christians might want to start with this; http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/qur-jes.htm
#81Mohammad was a prophet of Satan and his #### is Quran.
The bastard was so dirty that he stinks even today.
#82To reply #81
You're not contributing anything to this discussion but visceral opinions. It would be more constructive to be scholarly and respectful.
Also, why are you two hiding behind 'anonymous'? It's disconcerting. It would be better if you had distinct identities in order to tell you apart immediately.
#83indeed there exists radicalism in many religions, in many forms
my grave concern at this moment is that we have a man bidding for this nation's highest office who has noooooooooomerous questionable links to questionable individuals. from politically active Islamo friendly individuals to individuals who are downright out-spoken in their anti-zionism/pro-islamic and even lunatics like Louis Farrakhan are embraced by his church... his own pastor is a former Muslim and is quoted as saying "9/11 was a wake up call for White America".
these things taken individually may not appear such a big deal, but putting all the pieces together is what I am finding truly disturbing. for me, this has nothing do with black or white, racism or prejudice... just simply a very serious level of concern about real dangers in the world. i should add that i am NY and I saw with my own eyes, the Twin Towers go down. one example of the above-mentioned "questionable individuals" is Raila Odinga
-this is an unbiased fair discussion of the subject: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57363
#84I have looked at Mohammad and Quran from all angles. I have looked from all angles the actions of the two that led to bloodshed, destruction and utter misery over the centuries. The two evils: one who was in flesh and blood the other in script - do not deserve even an iota of respect.
Today I can say that not one Moslem had ever embraced this heinous faith out of love or conviction in contrast to Christianity. Sheer terror of saving their lives made many down the ages to embrace the heinous dognma.
It is truly disgusting that modern Man endowed with higher mental faculties should still carry the #### of Islam on his back under fear.
#85Me thinks there is a lot of misconceptions here. There is a lot of killing going on here! Who killed who during the Great Crusades?? How far can be track the history of mankind back? The history of mankind is a continous war with a few periods of "peace" so we can breed new fodder! Just an observation.
#86#85, see "Reasons for the Crusades" and "The Hard Truth for Islam: No Other Religion Produces Such Numbers of Mass Murderers". The shocking thing is that a very large number of Islamist preachers today, actively call for their followers to kill non-Muslims. See this post for documentation.
#87I agree with john mathews #84, There is no reason anyone should tolerate a dogma of murder and pedophilia. It's quincy adams said it best , "as long as the religion of mohamed is in practice, humanity will never know peace."
#88Hey nef, would you be good enough to let me know where that quote by John Q Adams came from? What was the source?
Thanks.
#89the first time i came across this quote was in Robert spencers's The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades.
But this is quoted here in the big picture
John Quincy Adams on Islam:
"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, [.....] Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST.- TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.... Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant ... While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men."
#90Helpful. Thank you.
#91in fact there is no radical islam normal is islam is radical islam and real muslims are all radical muslims
i want to share the reality that i lived with the real islam not the false one that they try to convince the west with
if you are muslim, recently converted to muslim some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions which drove a world of 1 billion which dont want to think and search and be honest with them selves
these hypocritic rules is created by mohamed to get people loyality to him in the name of allah and akkbar -which was a an god for some arabs at this time- he started fooling and told his followers how to fool and they must fool and still this story running to the day
a lot of arabs (islam and quran is all about arabic) dosent understand islam so how could non arabs do so they fool them
if you do some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions
most of the truth about islam and islamic lies could be found in arabic do not make them fool you if you dont understand arabic
muslim -real muslims- say that the quran is not accept by allah (GOD) in any other languge than arabic (may be that allah dose not understand english) and the quran is the same since it created -search and you will find it never be correct- and many other lies can not be right
and lies continue
muslims in fact create lies and beleive them
they always speak about islamic miracles, but islam never had a miracle than bringing war and hatred in a religion that get followed by millions that is the real miracle and the only one
any normal to fanatic muslim have a hatred to any non muslim which taught by his or her relegion
anyone knows the real fact about islam and care about his life and others lives and a real god not about this fooling called islam will immediately leave it,
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK!!
mohammed the prophet married many many women -i see he was lust for sex- and married 6 years old kid when he was 50s and mastaurbated with her had sex with her when she became 9!!
that one was from islamic trusted books and hadithes there are so many many more things to say and the real fact have even more
on of the islams aim is to distroy christianity and judism
i do not beleive in any of them yet
but if you put one of them in compare with islam
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
i invite every muslim to begin thinking is that a real distiney
will i find the 70x70 lady waiting for me with muhammed to have sex with me in heaven.
#92Repeatedly, the Adams quotation is referred to Robert Spencer's Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades.
Unfortunately, Spencer cites no reference for the quote, not in the chapter or the notes at the end.
So, does anyone know where Spencer got it from?
#93The quote can be found in the comprehensive annotated bibliography of John Quincy Adams’ writings, compiled by Lynn H. Parsons, page 269.
#94Thanks VIK RUBENFELD
I found a source also -- actually it's the same.
Spencer cites sources most of the time, but when he doesn't, it makes you wonder, did he bend that a little? He is so negative about nearly everything Islam -- interesting that JQA felt the same nearly 200 years before!
#95You're very welcome.
#96Christians talk of blasphemy. Mohammads go one step further and resort to murder.
Is God so fragile and weak that decaying mortal like us can blasphemy Him?
It is sheer stupidity that blasphemy should be an issue.
Can you blaspheme the moon by spitting at it? The spittle will fall on your face.
#97Hello John Matthews. I'll see if I, as a Christian, can clear this one up. Not promising miracles here, but I'm gonna give it my best shot.
God is above all and worthy of Creation's respect and reverence. In Heaven, He is surrounded by worship. Not blasphemy. Does He need worship? Is He wounded by blasphemy? God's too big, IMO, for either of these to be answered with a 'yes'. But that isn't the point. God requires our respect. It is the proper and obligatory thing to do. He's the King of the universe. Surely we give more respect even to worldly officials?
I dunno. Does that help? Is there another Christian here who can perhaps help me explain this better?
As for radical Muslims, I do agree with you that they seem to feel it is their place to carry out God's judgment. Now in the OT, the budding Jewish nation was required to take their new country by force. This was two-fold: it gave Abraham's descendants a home and it also pronounced God's judgment and condemnation on a people who's sin hit high to the heavens. They sacrificed their own babies for goodness' sake. God, with all of His super-human patience, had had enough. But the Jews weren't acting upon their own desire to act out God's judgment. Christians are likewise not charge by God to act out His judgment. We are told to leave the sentencing to Him. Our job is to warn the world about God's wrath. While He is a supremely loving God and has bent over backwards to give us seat with Him in Heaven, He will not force us. It is the Christian's job to let the world know the balanced message of God's love and mercy, and of His judgment. But that's it. We're kind of like the ancient Israeli prophets: we're told what to say and to whom. But we do not have God's authority to act out His condemnation. This is where the Muslims have it horribly wrong.
God is fully capable of acting out His own judgment and He Himself knows the best time to do this. We cannot assume to.
#98Can a cat coneptualise the working of a speed boat? God is beyond our ken. This is much is evident that there is a superpower and we are part of it. It is a mystery why we tend to feel and experience ours as a separate existence..
All I want is in the name of God let us not destroy one another. After all we belong to one human family despite the different labels we carry. By killing we insult God, or whatever God you are told to believe.
#99Islam is a failed civilization. Where are their Beethovens (none, as they think music is evil; when Cat Stevens converted to Islam, he had to give up his music), Isaac Newtons, Thomas Alva Edisons, Nikola Teslas, da Vincis, and on and on? Check the list of Nobel Prize winners, and I don't mean the soft liberal nonsense Carter phoney stuff peace stuff, I mean science and arts).
Islam is a failure because it does not police this evil, it ignores it or maybe approves of it, Islam owes the rest of the world an apology for the Mohammed Attas, bin Ladens, Zarkowis, ..... and all those fat bearded evil guys. What is this thing with Islam's adoration of fat bearded evil guys? Even that American traitor the terrorists put on tv is a fat bearded evil guy. They (not terrorists, just Islamics) riot and kill children and nuns about cartoons and the Pope saying something about evil in the 14 th century, but say nothing about the beheading of innocents, the government of Afghanistan (not terrorists, the government) sentencing to death someone who converted to Christianity. They hear about Islamics (not terrorists, just Islamics) who want to kill a British school teacher whose students name a teddy bear "Mohammed," they say nothing when they hear the cockpit recorder of United 93 reveal that their last words over and over was "Allah is beautiful." And on and on.
A civilization that like Churchill said, has people who can be charming individually, but collectively is fundamentally evil. When the term "Fundamental Islamics," is used, it really means "Fundamentally Evil Islamics," as they have read the Quran, and believe the Quran commands their evil and that they are doing the work of Allah. In Andrew McCarthy's book, "Willful Blindness, A Memoir of the Jihad," about the Blind Sheik's trial for the first World Trade Center bombing, he reveals that to his astonishment, the quotes from the Quran that the Blind Sheik (Satan on Earth) said he was obeying, were in fact correctly quoted.
#100couthbaron I fully agree what you have said. Calling a cult like Islam a religion is like calling a coaching class run by a unemployed youth as an university.
Islam incites murder and hatred which is banned by almost all the constitution of the countries on this earth. Islam has bastardized human sensibilities. The irony is that these horrendous monsters who maim and kill people in the name of Islam utter words from their dirty mouth like Allah is merciful. It is indeed a cruel paradox that a merciful god is so blood thirsty.
But therein lies the rub, John. The God of Islam is required to be merciful only to Muslims.
I often think that much of the issue of conflict between the Judeo/Christian world and the Muslim, is one of culture, and that is reflected in the semantics used in the argument: what is the meaning of "innocent" to a Christian as opposed to a Muslim? What is the meaning of "merciful god"? When the way the religions - and thus cultures - view the world is so fundamentally different, discussion often seems a moot point. If two sides don't even view the same moral reality as the context for discussion, where does that leave us?
Just random thoughts - not asking for an answer. I'm not sure there is one. What I do know is that the time is coming when each of us will have to take a moral stand - something supremely unpopular in our PC culture. I have come to believe over time and study that some moral truths are and must be universal in order for mankind to advance culturally and spiritually. We will all be called upon to give voice to that universal moral truth - it's going to take clear-sightedness and great courage.
In my opinion, Vik is one of our early, clear-sighted, courageous voices. Kudos.
#102the difference between the two religions is, basically this,
the world curses the christians for not practising their faith and the moslem because he does.
Christian religion holds up hope for a peaceful life.
islamic religion holds up a fist and a sword to all of those who do not comply. It is hard to believe that in the begining we had the same teacher.
Jesus Christ.
I fear jealousy is at the root of all of this.
#103Chucky,
There was a Golden Age of Islam, when the Islamic countries of North Africa and the Near East were at their apex, inventing Arabic numerals such as 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
had great architecture and music, and were generous to neighbors, while Europe was in the Dark Ages.
Then something happened. As I understand it, the Koran said the downfall of Islam would come from the West, but instead some invader came from the East, and threw all the books into the Euphrates so his horses could cross, and killed all the scientists.
Is this true? Who was the Invader that brought Islam into the the modern Dark Ages? When? How did Islam go so suddenly from the Top the world, to its current position at the Bottom?
This was after the Crusades, so it can't be blamed on the Christians.
Paul
#104This is just awful, and exactly why the world today is in such trouble. It shames me terribly as a Christian to see my christian brothers disrespecting the views and faiths of other people and cultures.
In many ways the media under George W. Bush has been given a free license to work up a frenzy and bring out the ignorances of our great nation, to attack any one who is different.
The situation has got so bad that we now misquote the bible, the quran and the torah. We incite our muslim brothers with quotes that are not true, and we accuse them of things that we have been doing throughout the ages. God warns us of Hypocrisy and there is too much today.
I have read some posts here which have shocked me as many of the postees claim that they are proud to be Christian, a religion of peace and love, but in their words are encouraging people to hate muslims and promoting hate towards people who are different, therefore breeding intolerance.
Also let me say this. Murder is Murder, regardless of the reasoning behind it. People of all religions kill.
Christians kill, Jews kill, Muslims kill.
All of the reasons are different. But our reasons don't make it right. And their reasons dont make it any worse than ours.
Vietnam was not a muslim war. It was Christian American soldiers killing Buddhists, Taoists, Confuscists and Christians. Casualties 7 million in North Vietnam, 2 million in South Vietnam.
The colonization of Africa was carried out mainly by Western European Christian nations. The amount of Africans killed will never been known, but it takes a lot of killing to subdue a whole continent. Just ask Britain, France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany.
America was a colony of Britain. Christians fought Christians, killing each other resulting in murder and killing, Not very Christian-like. America was seen to be a terrorist like state, a pariah according to the rulers of the British Empire.
Let us not forget that in the 1500's the American Indian population was 12 million. By 1900 this had reduced to 237,000. Many would call this a genocide. The Christian settlers did not treat their hosts as true guests should. Respecting the laws of the country you live in is something we tell a lot of foreigners in our lands to adhere to. Maybe we could do the same.
Christians used to burn woman at the stake accusing them of witchcraft, and in certain Christian african nations these practices are still carried out, even amongst children.
Let us stop the hypocrisy and start to respect our neighbours around the world as our founding fathers recommended and as Christians should.
#105John you self deprecations shows how far the Muslim terror has affected you.
Yes all of kill irrespective of religion. But Muslim kill because their Koran is embedded in hate
#106John, just because someone says they're Christian, doesn't mean they are. Secondly, our major problem TODAY -- not back in 1690 or 1000, but TO-DAY -- is radical Islam. Even about 25% of so-called moderate Muslims in our own great United States sympathize with the idea that suicide bombing may sometimes be necessary. And notice how quiet they've been since 9/11. They barely speak a word about it, but are all too quick to start making a fuss whenever an airline kicks some questionable men off a plane. I find that a tad disturbing and so should you.
John also misses the point that with the wars he cites as examples, they weren't driven primarily upon Christian ideology - Christian population on our side was incidental to the conflict, not the reason for it. (In fact even the Crusades were about land and cultural preservation - it wasn't the intend of the Crusaders to spead ideolgy, regardless of what the current leftist mantra preaches). But with Islam today, the entire aim is world conversion for Allah. Islamitization IS the driving ideology - the very root reason for the aggression. That is the difference, and it's a BIG one.
In fact, it may be argued that Islamitization was the root cause of the Crusades: Europe had spent centuries defending itself from Moorish aggression - aggression that was directly related to conversion by the sword for Allah. At the time of the first Crusade, Christians and Jews had been denied freedom in Jerusalem, all of Spain was under Islamic control, France had fought it for centuries, as had much of mediterranean Europe. They were tired of it. It is accurate to say we are still fighting the same fight - defending freedom of ideology from Islamic oppression.
Your heart is in the right place, John, but your view is uneducated and naive, with all respect. Sometimes it's important to call evil what it is.
In an article I wrote last year, I talked about this very subject:
"I realize that it makes Westerners uncomfortable to be confronted with the statement that negotiation with Islam is not possible. We want to believe that there is always room for negotiation, for joint efforts in peace building. However, clinging to that belief in the face of the reality of an Islamist mindset is not realistic, and it will be the death of Western society. As we spin our wheels trying to negotiate peace with a religion that does not define peace in the same way we do, the political agenda of a political religious ideology is easily establishing itself within our shores, and this is in direct opposition to many of our constitutional values. The issue isn’t all about us versus them. It’s about our commitment to peace not only for ourselves, but for millions of Muslim lives caught up in the violence of Islam..." http://fsmarchives.org/article.php?id=914415
You might want to check out another article I wrote over a year ago on this very issue: http://fsmarchives.org/article.php?id=1127780
The more one learns of Islam at its core values, the more one cannot in good conscience defend it, or continue to speak of it as harmless.
#108Though a Christian I have read Bhagvad Gita and Koran. Koran is shocking to say the least. It's totally anti-humane. I don't understand how modern man tolerates such a vile book in the name of religion!
Incidentally I feel each one of us must read Gita and judge for himself its true divinity.
The essence of Gita can be found in each of its sloka. Since Koran is haunting us one should read the chapter 11 sloka 55 wherein Lord Krishna says: My dear Arjuna, he who engages in My pure devotional service, free from the contaminations of fruitive activities and mental speculation, he who works for Me, who makes Me the supreme goal of his life, and who is friendly to every living being--he certainly comes to Me.
All life are God created. Man has no right to kill. In our food habits we still follow to some extent the habits of our primitive forefathers. But killing for the sake of an evil prophet is the worst crime I can imagine.
The evil Koran makes it mandatory on its mental slave urging them that whosoever does not believe in me(the barbaric prophet mohammad) then kill those nonbeliever wherever you find him.
#109Jesus was but a supremely gifted man, with the mind of goodness for all of mankind against what he percieved as a corruption of the original jewish teachings. in my view.
Muhammad, was a theorizer of things he knew not of and conveyed them as a politician looking for votes, know one thing to be true,
there is always down trodden people looking for vengence
and superiority over themselves and all those who dare to speak the truth, It just happens that they attack christian based societies for now.
His followers are non thinking people who are too cowardly to attack a nation or people who will not tollorate their barbarism.
I dare them to attack a nation of a billion people such as china and see what would happen.
I can tell you,
The very same venomous people they attack today would stand up in their defence , not as american or canadian or french but as christian based societies.
case closed.....
#110Keith, you have noticed the selective memory of Islamics. And it is not a mistake, they are taught this. Ever hear them say "Crusaders," as if they are the victims? Read "The Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic, and many other books. This may be the most important book you will ever read. Read how Islam was spread "by the Sword," how throughout the Middle East city after city had Islamic hoardes slaughter all the males, how the girls would watch their fathers, brothers, husbands be beheaded (the big Islamic thing, as this is what the noble Quran tells them to do), and then be treated to a night or nights of orgy, and enslavement to follow. All because that is what Allah told them to do. This book will walk you through all of it, right through Symrna Turkey in 1922, to the present day. And of course Islamics will tell it was a lie, and then point to the Crusade of 1099 yet again, nevermind the last Crusade ended in 1270. And they will point to stuff Christians did hundreds of years ago, and on a scale many orders of magnitude smaller. And then they will point to verses in the Bible, again many many less in number, and nothing that anyone would do today. They will not point out to you the pure demonic evil theme that dominates the Quran.
You will never see a more clueless bumper sticker than "Coexist." The one whose first letter is the C formed by the Islamic crescent and star. Pitiful, clueless entitled slovenly indolent liberal Americans drive those cars with that sticker. Maybe they are elsewhere as well. But these, let's be nice and just say, "Well bless their hearts," just do not realize that they, like myself, do not even know what religion their coworkers and friends are, and do not really care. And the reason for that lies in the post above by the pensive John Matthews, who tells of the readings of Gita (I am not familiar with this). This is because that, as I thought until embarassing recently, that all religions were " all the same, good stuff, love thy fellow man, knowing right from wrong, some worship cows and some think this that or the other, but all decent right and wrong knowing stuff." And the only one that is not is the first one on that liberal slovenly indolent American bumper sticker, "Coexist." The poor dears do not realize that they can say "Think I will go try that Methodist/Presbyterian/Baptist/Catholic/Whatever church Sunday" and that absolutely no one will care or be offended, it is a free country. For now anyway, the events of 4 November hopefully is not the end, the Islamic terrorist groups like CAIR here, their plan being immigration, which has served them so well in Europe. After all, Islam has been doing this since the seventh century, these are not "Instant Gratification" folks like the slovenly indolent Americans among us. The goody goody girlie guy liberals who were so informed November 4th, having researched well who did Freddie and Fannie, oh yes, they threw the sorry corrupt politicians out. Take that Barney Franks, Frank Raines, John "Hero Marine" Murtha. DO NOT MESS WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BARNEY FRANKS AND COMPANY, AND THAT IS WHY YOU ARE NOW LOOKING FOR JOBS NOW THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SPOKE ON NOVEMBER 4th! But I digress, but wow, Jefferson, who said "The Informed Citizen is the Cornerstone of Democracy" would jump out of his grave and kick them in the teeth if he but could. And so would "You can fool all the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln would have to reasses that today in view of November 4th. A different people we have become.
But back to the question, the question being, will they assimilate, or will the silent ones wait for the evil minority to tell them what to do??
No, Coexist bumper sticker folks do not realize that they would be beheaded if they did something like that in Saudi Arabia, Iran, ....Just Bless their little hearts.
We have heard it before, the "Hun in the Sun," the big mean "Krauts," that is who the enemy is! Or how about those "Slanteyes," boy were they bad. Just pure evil!! And then "Chinese Hoardes" at the Chosin resevoir, boy they were just plain evil. This just in time got us ready for the "Gooners" and "Gooks" of Viet Nam (Nevermind how successful the Viet Namese people have been who have come to America, bright, hard working, very successful, and very very nice people, not at all evil).
#111The year was 1978, when John Carpenter's "Halloween" was released, and is now one of the classic horror movies. At the end of the first one is the detective Donald Pleasance, who gazes with a child at the spot where the evil demonic Michael Myers was lying motionless but a moment ago. The child asks, "Was that the Boogeyman." And Pleasance replies "Indeed it was..." the spookey music and the credits roll. And for you to ponder, is that Boogeyman Islam? Is this the clash of civizilations that Huntington told us of? This struggle, or in their words, "Jihad" that has gone on since the seventh century, is it coming to a head. Hitler's "Mein Kamph" also means "My Struggle." But this was the "Huns" and "Krauts," a nation of maybe 150 or so million. Islam is NOT a country, and it has 1.2 billion of about 6 billion on the planet, and has the world's highest birth rate. And petrodollars. So is it just one religion of many, as the Bless Their Hearts Coexist Bumper Sticker folks think, just another religion that is really no different than any other? Or is Islam the Boogeyman? Is it???
#112john matthews you saw that islam teaches to kill. I told you that regardless of the reasons, killing is killing. Are you so blind that when you say Islam as a religion encourages people to kill, that you dont realse that our foreign policy is also encouraging our troops to kill in our name. Religion is one aspect that determines an individuals ideals. Our governments have also done the same
Whats the difference between a book telling you to kill your enemies and George W. Bush telling our troops to do the same. None. It the same.
As I said to you, your blind hate is ultimately the very problem with the world today. I have come to my conclusions by looking through our history and the history of the world. I think that more suffering has been caused upon more people in the world by caucasian christian western peoples than any other civilizations on earth. I think as an intelligent person you probably know this.
And im not a self hater, quite the opposite, im very aware of what my people have been doing in Latin America (funding the contras and death squads, countless coups by the CIA bringing suffering to millions), in Africa (slavery and colonization), Asia (vietnam, cambodia, laos, indonesia, funding the Khmer Rouge, death squads, millions of deaths) and the middle east (countless coups, unprovoked invasions, meddling in the affairs of the arabs, beirut, Gulf war 1 and 2, and biased helping of Israel, helping them build nuclear weapons and supporting their totally illegal occupation of arab lands).
Also Im a Christian, i dont know what you think but the bhagvad gita is a book that promotes the worship of many gods, i believe you are a Christian and that you would not encourage polytheism as their is only one true lord the saviour Christ. However i do respect the right of anyone to their beliefs, I myself would not promote the bhagvad gita, as a christian.
As our Lord saviour would have, let us preach and practice tolerance and respect, and not as many here have been on this site, do the devils work and preach hate on humanity.
#113keith in regards to your comment 'muslims sympathize with suicide bombers' i would like to know how many muslims you have asked about this and how much is assumption.
on the flipside a muslim is very much in their right to assume or if they like claim as a fact that Christians like dropping bombs on villages in remote places in Afghanistan or Iraq, many of whom probably had no idea what was going on.
Why cant you see the hypocrisy. We kill them, we kill them, we kill them, we kill them, they kill us (media make a big fuss, patriotic civillians scream for blood), we kill them some more.
Can you see a pattern emerging here.
For some serious research. Do some checking up.
Look at all the major wars before Sep 11, where we invaded some place.
Look at our casualties and look at theirs.
You'll see we have killed far more people than the other guys anywhere we have gone.
Also I have started to do something and have encouraged my friends to do this.
Anytime some terrorism occurs, we have now started to use the religion factor everytime. Not just in Islamic regards.
So ETA (still active) in Spain is now Christian Terrorism, IRA(still active, not hundreds of years ago), Irish catholics now Christian Terrorism, Gods Army(still active) Burmese christian terrorists. Ku Klux Klan(still active) now Christian Terrorism. I was gonna stop just in case any says 'oh is that all' instead we have to clean up our act as christians before we claim to be cleaner than clean. I will list all Christian terrorism going on right now and Jewish as well, and I am using our standards in the west of judging and the groups below have caused terror with religion as a main instigator.
Army of God (US)
Aryan Nations (US)
Ku Klux Klan (US)
Christian Patriots (US)
National Liberation Front of Tripura (india)
Nagaland Rebels (india)
Guardians of the Cedars (lebanon)
Christian Phalangist Militia (lebanon)
Provisional Irish Republic Army (ireland)
Catholic Reaction Force (ireland)
Irish Peoples Liberation Organisation (ireland)
Irish National Liberation Army (ireland)
Real IRA (ireland)
Red Hand Commandos (ireland)
Ulster Volunteer Force (ireland)
Ulster Resistance (ireland)
Russian National Unity (russia)
Russian National Socialists (russia)
Tzar Lazar Guard (serbia)
White Eagles (serbia)
Gods Army (burma)
Sons of Freedom (canada)
The Lords Resistance Army (Uganda)
Jewish Defence League (Israel)
Kach and Kahane Chai (Israel)
Gush Emunim Underground (Israel)
#114John I am surprised by your warped logic. It seems you love Islam more than Muslims.
George Bush never went killing anyone until the modern day Islamic Prophet Osama bin Laden struck America in a brutal way. Yes, Bush should have kept quiet and allowed the poor bastards in Afghanistan to stay in peace!
There is not even an iota of religion in Islam. It is a barbaric cult that encourages deflowering of girls by maniacal followers and stocking their gala of women behind suffocating burkhas.
If world has to see love and peace Islam has to be eradicated as was done with small pox. Your misplaced sense of compassion and comparing Christian cheese with Islamic chalk is shocking to say the least. f
#115My my John, an impressive display of having the facts at your beck and call and seeing the exact opposite of reality. Above that old canard, one of the BIGGEST LIES THAT WE CHERISH AND BEHOLD, that business of the plight of the poor Palistinean people and how "their land has been stolden...." How about, let's make this real easy for you, you do not even have to google it, it is all on this web site. I hope you do read, and not just accept all this liberal prattle about how everything is America's fault and if we would just give them Palistine "back" and destroy Israel, they would be happy and all this terrorism would just go away, please don't tell me that you at least do not check the facts and take this all at face value?? Like so many indolent Americans...And you did read the comments above but have you not read the links and back and forth on this Palistinian lie and other such banalaties?? I am not going to provide you a link, it is the thing of "Give a man a fish and he will eat tonight, but teach a man how to fish and he will eat the rest of his life." So stop it, quit being intellectually bankrupt and spreading lies. And you list a bunch of trivial in comparison fringe fanatic groups along with the KKK, do you think wisdom can be presented as quantity of rubbish, lies, distortions, exaggerations?? And while you are at it, please research Algeria in 1990 and how the fanatics took control and murdered 100,000 fellow muslims to promote the one we call Satan but they call Allah. Please explain how this was caused by American foreign policy. Then take a look at Sudan, as we speak, and how the Islamics have murdered 1 million people recently since they were "Unbelievers." Please tell me what American foreign policy had to do with that. Check out what happened to Symrna in Asia Minor in 1922, and please tell me what American foreign policy had to do with that. And I could fill pages with similar examples. But let's help connect the dots, guess what is common to all of the aforementioned? Can you see it?? IT IS ISLAM. So tell me how American foreign policy caused this. And not fairy tales, not stuff about how Islam is the same thing as the KKK and other such long gone things, way out of proportion, and in no way now relevent. A long gone bunch of ignorant white men who felt so inferior that they needed to surpress someone so they could feel powerful. Pitiful men, bigoted, stupid, easily enraged and made to follow as their rational abilities were severly limited, these make great followers. There are similarities, as there are with all kinds of collective evil movements. They wore white sheets, but Islamic demonic fanatics do even better, they pretend to be innocent civilians, well versed in political correctness and just how offended they are, the favorite pasttime of Islamics, being offended, and being very selective as to what to be offended about. And when they are killed along with the human shields they have used, they just love to go tell the feckless media about "OH THE AMERICANS HAVE KILLED A BUNCH OF CIVILIANS, AND NONE WERE TERRORISTS." And the mallability, the ease of being infuriated, the lack of any rational ability, have you seen them in hoardes jumping up and down with their signs and screaming Allah Akbar and Death to America and who knows what else? They make the KKK look like a line up of Nobel Prize winners in physics. The most despicable demonic people in the entire tapestry of mankind, this Islamic evil. Hitler is no comparison, nor Atilla the Hun, Gengus Khan, this is from hell.
Let's make this real easy, after you take a tour of this site, which you either have not or if you have, then dismissed anything that contrasted with your preconceptions. Research is not needed for those types. But after all, "you are entitled to your opinions, even if they are wrong." Let's make this armchair stuff for you, check out the DVD "Islam Against Islamics." which will show you the struggle of decent Islamics against the demonic evil that dominates their religion not in numbers but in influence. There you will see brave Islamics who are trying to make a difference, but it does not appear that they are anywhere close to winning. There is a HORRIBLE evil in Islam, and fail to see this at your own peril. I heard about the Islamic cleric (Kibbain??) who gave a pre - 9/11 speech to American senators, representatives, congressmen telling of the looming evil from bin Laden and suicide bombers.
#116I had heard this but did not really believe it, but I saw it with my own eyes here, and so should you. But the reason I call you to watch this is to let you hear the story of the Danish cartoons, how when presented with proof that a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with the cartoons, pictures of pig faced things that they were told were of Muhammod, were presented to the masses to inflame them, and APPARENTLY BEING FULLY AWARE OF THE LACK OF ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT PROCESS OF THE ISALMIC PEOPLE TO DISCERN LIES, TO BUY IT HOOK LINE AND SINKER AND TAKE TO THE STREETS TO BURN, DESTROY, AND YES MURDER. Look hard at this Muslim cleric, he knows how pliant and predisposed Muslims are (a huge number anyway, and the response from the remainder of Muslims is silence.}
Now, carefully listen to the Muslim cleric who did this try to explain his way out of it, knowing he had been caught and presented with undisputed facts by not so pliant and easily mislead people. Just listen to the evasiveness and stream of lies. Yes, so many of us are just living a great big lie.
You have a mind, use it, do not live a lie, go read books, blogs, ... and get yourself informed. And when confronted with lies, SPEAK UP, otherwise you are no better than the liars. You can continue to be ignorant and spread lies if you wish, but a terrible waste of the mind it is. Do you really like people to tell these lies to you as if they are smarter than you? Like the aforementioned Muslim Cartoon cleric? That smooth talking demon thinks he is smart? Compared to room - temperature IQ fanatic Islamics with no rational though process as they have been brainwashed since birth, he apparently is. But aren't you better than that??
I'm sorry John, but I have to speak to this: your religion/terrorism game would be reasonable if it reflected reality and real knowledge of these conflicts. The ETA is in fact based on a separatist Basque ideology - blaming Christianity is just misguided. The IRA? You have to be kidding. You evidently have been taught somewhere that it is all about those nasty Catholics. In fact, the conflict is a socio-economic conflict; that the ones in political power and landowners are traditionally Protestant and the poor non-landowners are traditionally Catholic, is incidental to the conflict. (I think an uneducated American mind like to see it as Catholics vs Protestants for simplicity, but in fact it's not a religious war at all.) In fact, serious study would let you know that the Catholics have suffered far more terrorism-related casualties through the years.
My point is, it's easy to reduce complicated conflicts to a simple inaccurate nutshell: it's all the fault of (usually Christian) religion. But that isn't fair, it isn't right, and it doesn't reflect actual facts.
I think what many on the Left have trouble wrapping their PC minds around, is that not all the world's peoples operate under the same set of principles as you do. You are judging the behavior of all based on your own moral reality, and with Islam it just doesn't hold water. Just one example: the Islamic doctrine of Taqiyya. This is a part of the religion which allows deception of the Infidel - in other words, if you lie boldfacedly to advance the cause of Islam, it's okay. Not only okay but a virtue. Now that is so far from the Western moral foundation - where deception is considered a "sin" - that we might have trouble fully accepting its reality. But Taquiyya allows a cleric to say one thing to the world media and the opposite to the local populace, without batting an eyelash of moral shame.
I think that one of the most terrifying things about Islamitization of the West, is that people like John find it easier to hate their own heritage and society, than to accept the horrifying reality that Islam represents: one where truth is not a virtue, where protecting women and children is not a virtue, where education is not a virtue, embracing other ideologies is not a virtue.
#118I would love to see the muslim community stand up to the terrorists with statments like the Quaran says not to kill inocent men , women and children. But , lots of luck doint that because the Quran says to kill them. Slit there throats and worse. How can any person even think of joining such a religion with faciests doing what they are doing in the name of allah or there god . They say there's a difference from them over "there". Well the only difference it over there is a whole lot them there and not too many here. Just let it change and we will see these kind muslim people here keep there mouths shut tighter than it is now. There god is not the God of JudioChristian. There's is the god of the sun god of Babble or Bahl. I better quit , I'm getting upset talking about this because it's falling on deaf ears and blind eyes because people don't do any researsh before they join something like islam and go in it blindly. The real God is in control anyway and I'm so happy to know this.
#119God bless the owners of this website. I just came across this website today and it was refreshing to read all these great articles. I myself am a searcher of truth and I have read a lot about islam and in fact know islam in depth and more than many moslems do. I have read the Quran and Hadiths in 3 languages verse by verse as well as a lot of other historical books from both Christian and Islamic scholars. Based on my research of irrefutable historical facts I have concluded that Allah is not God-father the creator of universe but a locan pagan deity that was wrongfully and deliberately given attributes of the God the father and creator. To conclude I would like to add the following:
"Slay the infidels (non-muslims) where you find them" (Sura 9:5).
#120Lorenc, you have unmasked the the Biggest Lie Ever Told, "Islam is a religion of peace." You heard President Bush say it in his speech after 9/11, you heard it from Bill Clinton when he was President, and you heard it from Tony Blair in another speech. If you saw the movie "The Usual Suspects," you heard the signature and most enduring line throughout the movie: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was in convincing you that he did not exist." That is Islam's divinely authorized dirty secret, it is called al-Taqiyya, the one that says it is ok to lie cheat steal kill Unbelievers to promote Islam, but not so to Believers. I am sure that you, Lorenc, have uncovered this Fatal Flaw of Islam. JFK had extraordinary mental capabilities, but our leaders today are well-intended but woefully uninformed. GW Bush says that Islam is a religion of peace, and knows NOTHING about this religion. He has been presented with NOTHING to support this absurd statement. GW Bush gave the Palistineans $500 million dollars a few months ago, money from decent, stupid - but - basically - good people Americans who have throughout this and the last century reached out to other nations in the hope of mitigating the misery in their lives. No amount of money will solve this problem. And if you think that $500 million from Americans to People Who Hate Them was bad, it is pale by comparison to the Dhimmicratic Party and the feckless idiots who have ran that party since Jimmy Carter. Carter, by far, the Worst President of All Time, gave Billions to this evil, to this day Butt Kisser of America's enemies. Don't tell me about Warren Harding, who had no qualifications whatsoever for the job with the exception of looking presidential. Doing absolutely nothing as Harding did would have done far less harm than Carter, as the billions he wasted on our enemies was just a tiny part of this man's legacy. And then we get Bill Clinton. The Dhimmicratic Party, whose only plan is "We Don't Like Bush, We Want Change." More billions to our enemies in Palestine, and fighting for the Islamics in Kosovo, thinking that if we fought on the side of Islam that somehow all fourteen centuries of Islam's evil against everyone else would just disappear. Another man in the Oval Office who has not done the required reading. Let's let you see a couple of little vignettes with your own eyes, maybe that will do it, maybe this is why this evil of Islam has survived all these centuries because the evil they do is just not believeable, is is so evil that to tell of it results in abject rejection as absurd. But could it be that if one sees this evil with ones' own eyes might work??? So watch "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West." Watch the segment where you see a smiling Bill Clinton in the middle of Yassar Arafat and at the Israelis in yet another peace summit in which this cluessless Dhimmicrat gives yet more billions to our enemies. Then watch the segue to Arafat saying Jihad and Jihad and Jihad to jubliant evil jumping up and down like cucumber IQ types as they just love to do. Idiots send billions to our enemies, who just do not realize what demonic evil, hopeless, utterly hopeless evil, this is.
#121A dichotomy between Us and Them. From hell, its evil needs to be utterly destroyed, enough of this Political Correctness. Rescue what ones you can, but this religion needs an enema, root out the evil, destroy it. If not, it will destroy you. Enough of the apologies, Islam must be CONFRONTED with its evil and corrective measures DEMANDED. Enough of them doing the demanding, the rest of the world is GOOD and Islam is EVIL and they must be confronted with this, and their evil locked up or killed. Your alternative is for the West to end "Not with a Bang but with a whimper."
Those Islamics who sit on the sidelines and say nothing, and you are in the majority, you are utterly despicable, you have seen this evil up close and you understand it all too well, you knew this evil centuries ago, and you have either promoted it or you have remained silent. Loathsome. You had better hope that the Quran tells you the truth, but I find that book nothing but evil and lies, you had better hope the Hereafter is not the fire and brimstone of other religions as you will surely burn. Cowardice is the only Unforgivable Sin, not "shirk," or Unbelieving as your evil book tells you.
It Islam only was a religion of peace, mankind could really focus on problems that face us all. But there is one problem out there that you may put at the top of any "To Do" list, and that is the Middle East. Winston Churchill and JQ Adams saw so long ago, if from hell, and it will not be fixed. It must be addressed, not apologized to. Nothing complex here, just raw evil. Watch "Suicide Killers" on dvd and hear it from those with failed "Martyrdom Missions" in their quest to "Kill their Jew" and go to Paradise. This is an utterly failed civilization, and no amount of money, good will, missionaries, can save it, it is Satan on earth. There are no doubt, as evidenced by our foreign policy, many out there who do not believe this. And I really wish that there was some justification for this disbelief. I really do not wish you to someday be confronted with the Awful Truth, as 9/11 just did not do it for you. You think that somehow that was an isolated thing and not connected to the evil perpetrated by the Islamic world since Muhammod went up to that mountainside and started hearing "voices." That's right, you are living in a horror movie, and the more you read about Islam the closer you come to the Awful Truth. Your life a horror movie, and not one that will end happily. Hope I am wrong, hope is all there is.
#122If the Federation can make peace with the Klingon Empire, surely there is hope for Christians and Muslims. Live long and prosper!
#123I wish this were so but alas it is not, fourteen centuries of Islamic hoardes destroying civilizations, murduring all the men in front of the women, then three nights of orgy and pillage. The looting is the inspiration, 20% to Muhammod, the rest to the rest, these are Satan's people. Read "Smyrna 1922, the Destruction of a City," by Marjorie Houspian Dobkin to know of what the Islamics did to 1.5 million Christians from 1915-1922 and you will understand. And do not try to say this was isolated, it was merely one of many such occurances since Muhammod in the seventh century. This is among the darkest most depraved sad sad immoral inhumane stories you will ever read, and the most striking thing is that there were 21 Allied warships in that harbor who did nothing but ignore what was being done to the Christians b/c of the oil. THis was selling of the soul to the Devil, and you cannot help but think that what is coming to in particular France and Britian is deserved. The Greeks had the Turks defeated, but the Brits and French took the side of the Turks b/c of the oil, and held the Greeks off until the Chettas (foreign Islamics, just like in IRaq) arrived, and the Greeks were slaughtered and then the civilians of Smyrna, following the same fate as all other villages in Anatolia, were slaughtered, and their possesions taken, including all girls from 14 to 35, raped and mutilated. And the Americans are not clean on this, one of history's true scoundrels and liars, with much blood on his hands, was Admiral Mark Bristol, USN. He should be exhumed brought back to life were it possible and prosecuted for crimes against humanity. Dark, very dark, this, and those of you in European cities should familiarize yourselves with what happened to Smyrna as that is your fate should you not wake up, which I think doubtful.
#124The Satan who called himself Prophet Mohammad was bereft of ideas when he had grandiosely announced his satanic religion. He told the faithfuls who have been bonded with terror: Brings the kufrs or unbelievers to Islamic fold. If not wherever you live do the opposite of what the kufrs do. If the kufrs grow moustache you do the opposite; if they are spitting out you spit inside your house.Why did the Islamic monster give such an advice? Simply to make Islamist look different from others!
#125Of the roughly 100 million people killed between WWI & II, how many were the Islamic Hoardes responsible for? Of the thousands killed by terrorism in Ireland, how many were Muslim suicide bombers? Which religion bears a greater responsibility for ridding the Western Hemisphere of the majority of its local population? Were those guilty of the tortures associated with the Spanish Inquisition bowing to Mecca and praying to Allah? Is Jesus to blame for any of these atrocities? No...of course not. Are there evil people who claim to follow Mohammad? Yes. But if we are to write off an entire religion for the actions of some, then wouldn't we be obliged to hold Christianity to the same standard?
You don't have to like Islam....God knows, I got no love for it. And as much as war sucks, we have the right to defend ourselves. Fight Al Qaeda. Kill Osama bin Ladin. But when you refer to Muslims as Satan's people, you have become the mirror image of our enemy.
Unless you're suggesting Americans pursue an agenda of world domination, I hope we might give consideration to the people in this world who may not share our faith, but who share our humanity and hope for a brighter future. As for me, I live my life the best I can, with all my imperfections, and leave the judging of one billion Muslims to the man upstairs. I mean, really, what else can we do? Kill them all and let God sort'em out?
You suggested I read "Smyrna 1922, the Destruction of a City". I suggest you watch more Star Trek...or perhaps Star Wars, where I hope you'll find a new source of inspiration in your crusade against the dark side of the force.
#126Jamie’s lament “But when you refer to Muslims as Satan’s people, you have become the mirror image of our enemy”is misplaced. In Islam either you are a Muslim or you are not. There is no good Muslim or a bad Muslim simply because you must read the Koran five times daily and obey every word of it as “THE GOD CALLED ALLAH HAS SPOKEN THROUGH HIS PROPHET.” OSAMA bin Laden is indeed a very good Muslim and who is very dear to Allah’s heart and his prophet as he is obeying the prophet's injunction at a great cost to his personal safety. Then why blame OBL when he is following strictly his the scriptures? This gets us to the core of the problem why OBL needs to behave and discriminate between a Muslim and Christian/Hindu/Jewish brothers. It therefore becomes clear that a mad man of yore had taken for a ride a whole class of people by using fear and brutality when the medieval people were susceptible to such influences. IT is time a Muslim must decide whether he should stick by Islam or stick by humanity. He cannot claim that he can do both. It is time a satanic religion is disowned. It is disingenuous for Jamie to talk of past brutalities by non-Muslims when those brutalities have ended. They were aberrations unlike Islamic brutalities that threatens to take over this world. Is Jamie blind to what happened recently in SWAT valley of Pakistan. This disease is spreading and could even come to our doorstep.
#127Jamie you mentioned the two world wars that we were in. That has nothing to do with this war that we are in unless you can relate it to 9/11. Then you are right on because we were attacked and we retaliated like we are now. Also I don't put my insperation in Star Wars or Star Trek because I put my insperation in Jesus Christ only. I'm not only talking about Christians only but the everyday moral person. We don't raise our kids to hate Isrial, other people of faith because we are to be tolerant , we are taught to love others, not cut there tongues out or cut there throt. Throw that into the Islamic religion and you can't compare it to there thinking. Our God is love, charity, ( see the ratical Muslims helping people after a storm) . We are taught by Gods word to hate the sin and not the sinner. The Muslim people are nice, have charity and are good people . Try reading the Bible but pray before you do that God will give you His insperation of what your reading. Salom. Mickey
#128Jamie, Star Wars is just entertainment and did not kill anyone. You trivilize the 1.5 million murdured by Islamics in Anatolia last century, the 300,000 murdured by Islamics in East Timor in the 80's and 90's, comparing it to World War II after Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust, absurd. Actually America was being run by liberals and wanted to stay out, and some call not stalingrad but Pearl Harbor the most decisive battle of WWII as this caused the liberals to be cast aside and America entered and the conclusion was determined, although it took a few years to play out. Check out how the Islamics murdured 200,000 Algerians in the 1990's then look at the calender and see when the Christians did such things, you will see more like 1590 and hopefully you will start to understand. If we as a people fail to see what Islam is then we will perish, just like the Armenians, Zoastrians, and all the others the Islamics have slaughtered in the name of this horrble religion, the religion of Satan. Read the book, it is dark, but read it, in honor of these innocent people, and understand what this religion is and what it does. And do not listen to those fools who talk of only a few bad Islamics, look at what Islam does, at Smryna, at the over one million and counting murdured in Darfur and the sudan, have you somehow ignored that too? Or you blame that on America nevermind it is Islamics who do this? ANd why has this religion produced no Salks, Newtons, no INternet, tv, radio, NOTHING, why is this??? Do you not get it. Read about how Muhammod and his hoardes of raping pillaging murdurers conquered Constanople in 1453 and held a banquet with the heads of the Byzantium king and his family on poles, and three nights of orgy afterwards. Did this happen just once, no, it has been happening since the seventh century and the only reason they have not been able to do this in the West is because they were stopped at the Gates of Vienna on SEPTEMBER 11, 1683. But they are coming and they will do this, the Islamic Horse of Immigration. Get it Jamie? You had better, for the sake of your children and their children. And do not forget al Taqiyya, divinely mandated lying by Islamics to promote this horrible religion. From Hell, Islam, the breath of the Beast.
#129Joseph...I'm seeing all kinds of names, dates, and numbers from the past that are supposed to serve as proof of Islamic evil. The dark side of Christianity has a history too, and I see nothing disingenuous with reminding everyone here of that undeniable fact. Past brutalities an aberration? 6 million jews that died in Christian Germany might not take kindly to that comment. And the Troubles in Ireland "ended" in the 1990's...fairly recent in my book.
Mickey...a bit presumptuous to assume I haven't read the Bible. My parents were moderate Southern Baptist, and I was blessed with an especially wise mother. She taught me to hear people out, but that I should not let others dictate what I should believe. God gave us minds of our own, and I don't think I've found two people yet who agree on everything. In my opinion, there's more people in heaven than just Christians. I know, I know...blashpemy. But, no offense, it's not really your opinion I care so much about. It's God's...and to a lesser extent the undecided minds that I plead my case to. And they will each have to use their own minds and come to their own conclucsions.
der Alleswisser...the dead get no respect in debates such as ours. We can toss numbers of the untold dead back and forth, without them having much input on the matter. Each one of each million had their own life, their own story to tell. But we don't really have time for that here, do we?
Yes, one might consider Star Wars and Star Trek just "entertainment". But artists often create such works of fiction with the hope that it might illustrate some important life lesson in a new and meaningful way. And so my purpose is dual...to add levity to what is obviously dire subject matter, and to hope that you might actually watch an episode and see an issue from a new perspective. For example, ST episode 70 is an excellent commentary on race relations.
To sum up for tonight, I once again put forth the question to which I had no response. What are you suggesting we do? Kill them all and let God sort'em out? I'm not a pacifist...and I really hate having to defend a religion I don't even like. But for God's sakes...we're talking about people. Men, women, and children....going to work, going to school, getting married, having kids, and hoping to grow old with their loved ones. You have to have a really big ego to think everyone on the other side of the planet is spending their day just wishing they had a crack at killing you. If we could give our muslim allies just a little more credit, then maybe they might be willing to step up to the plate and fight back against the fundamentalist extremist who only represent mainstream Islam only in the fictional "we're good and they're evil" world you portray on this website. I mean, since you've written them all off as "Satan's People", why should they give a crap about us at all?
Read "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain. He says it better than me, and in far fewer words.
#130BTW der Alleswisser...
Since you put forth that Islam contributed nothing of value to society, perhaps you should stick to Roman numerals. Not that Islam actually came up with Arabic numerals and algebra...but we do have the Muslims to thank for passing that knowledge on to us. And they must have some skill with architecture, unless you're suggesting those big lavish mosques were built by Christians?
#131Kind of a reach to call the Germans a Christian nation . You might want to revisit that one because Christians didn't kill the Jews. I will reinterate the statement I made. I know there are a great many good Muslims and I know a few that wouldn't think of imulating the ratical Muslims at bit. What I am angry about is the silence I hear comming from the Muslims about there feelings on this radical issue. Even here in the US, remember the father killing daughter over her dateing a none Muslim and as the father was stabing her to death she was on the phone with 911 calling for help and as her mother was yelling for her to die girl , just die!! Or the tv station ower who bought a station to let people know that the Muslims were good people only to cut his wifes head off. Now none of thats normal . If they want to live here in the US , the alimulte to us , not us to them . Not my words but Gods word is people who are Christ like ( Christians) will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. No perverts, homosexuals, liers, thiefs, adultrers. Sin will not enter Heaven. The ratical Muslims have been killing Americans all the way back to the late 1700's . Read of the Treaty of Tripoli all the way to the killings lately. And still no word from hardly any Muslims touting the raticals. Thats not normal. Our God says love one another, there God says ( even in the good Muslims Koran ) kill the infedels. If they don't believe the way you do, kill them. My God says love one another. I'm not perfect , just forgiven. I tell people about what God has done in my life which He has worked a big change . I fail, but can go to Him for forgiveness and keep on going knowing that He forgives even in some of my unbelief. Hope you have understood that I don't hate anyone, I just hate the sin. Thanks Mickey
#132Jamie you seem to be bogged down by the past which you use it in a knee-jerk reaction to justify the ongoing Islamic depradations. Since ages Islamic butchers have been killing innocents for no fault of theirs except that they do not owe allegiance to a Satanic credo.
Islam is bloodthirsty and there is no sign of mercy. To put it mildly it is an extremly lunatic credo that came out of the bosom of an extremely evil man who refused to pray even for his mother who died when that mad man was 6 years old. He cursed his mother Amina saying she was a non-Muslim and he would not intercede on her behalf to Allah to give peace to her soul. Can anyone be more vile than this?
The mad Mohammad should have known that it was only due to his mother's love and affection that he grew up and lived to propagate a cult so dangerous that it is eating the sanity of this world.
Past brutalities have to be treated as an aberration unless it is an ongoing process. Hitler’s own book of Bible did not approve of mass murder. Yet Hitler was one of the greatest butchers of modern history. But unlike Bible Koran is totally destructive and terrfying. More than half the earth was bloodied and blood drenched the earth in spreading its violent message. This is where the difference starts. Islam’s book Koran urges its faithfuls to turn the earth into Islamic ummah at whatever cost as no cost is too great to pay for it.
Islam stands on a tripod of treachery, butchery and debauchery. What hope does the world have to escape from this brutal religion of thugs?
#133Jamie, you must realize the numerals and the Rubyiat all ended by the 11th century. Surely you must realize that these are tiny things you mentioned and are pale in comparison to Maxwell's equations, the multitude of stunning accomplishments by Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla's envisioning the Alternating Current that powers the world today, he outdueling the immensly creative and wealthy Thomas Edison, and he who died penniless, the airplane, and you know that I could fill pages with this. The mosques? It was Muhammod who rode a horse to what is now the Blue Mosque, and proclaimed it a mosque after slaughtering everyone. And what Islam does have is a lot of people, something that portends very bad things today, much more so than before. You may be wrapped up in Isalm Apoligia, but that awful day of reckoning, when you finally realize the truth about this so - called religion, that day will come. Those in Europe, in the Netherlands in 1990 there were about 50,000 Muslims and now there are over a million. See Goerte Wilders fifteen minute segment FITNA. You do the math. And look back thru history and see what Islam has done, this is ludicrious about how there are some good Muslims, there are but they, as noted above, say nothing, and so evil prevails as we have heard again and again when good men say nothing. They are silent out of fear, or they are sitting on the fence to see how this comes out, this is damnation, and those who are quiet in the face of evil have blood on their hands, this includes the Dhimmicrat proxy murdurers who let demonic fanatics out of GITMO. Eric Holder represents a law firm that is representing 19 GITMO detainees, some of which may be innocent, but few if any. Holder and the other feckless cowards think they are getting away with wasting taxpayer money to protect this evil, but if that Day of Reckoning thing works anyting like the fire and brimstone stuff that is preached, they will not fool their Maker.
"Having received permission to loot, the soldiers thronged into the city with joyeous hearts and there, seizing the psssessors and their families, they made the wretched unbelievers weep." The Turkish historian Seaddedin, writing of the fall of Constantinople, 1453
#134Joseph...everybody else here wants to talk about the past...what makes me the one who's bogged down? So ok...let's say you're an 8 year old boy living in Gaza, and an errant Israeli bomb just took out your whole family. Do you really care who started what? Is it possible you might want revenge? Surrounded by poverty and suffering, who would you consider evil?
Mickey...c'mon Mickey...Germany is not a Christian nation? Like...the freakin' Pope is from Germany. 60,000,000 Christians in Germany currently...not all as faithful as the pope, but they claim it as their religion of choice. And I'm descended from Germans who left to escape religous wars between the Catholics and Protestants that plagued the Palatinate in the 17th/18th centuries. What exactly is your definition of a Christian?
Der Alleswisser...what is it with you and Isaac Newton? The Native Americans didn't write the Universal Law of Gravitation either, but that doesn't make them bad people.
So nobody's answered my question yet....if Islam is nothing but pure evil, what are we going to do about it? If lots of people read this stuff and decide you're right, then should we expand America's war against terrorism to include all Muslims? Or will you put on missionary robes and head off to the Middle East to convert these lost souls? Personally, I'd have a bit more respect for your position if I thought the latter option was truly important to you, but nothing about the language here sounds like you're recruiting missionaries.
Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God".
#135Let's put it this way. Why are we here in the US? It's because our forfathers didn't want to be told that they had to be members and worship the state religion Period!! Now, You can worship as you like and I won't tell you that your wrong if I don't like the way that you worship. However I will tell you about what Christ did for me and that he could do the same for you. No craming it down your throut or Bible thomping to it. My church sends people over to other countrys with medical teams to help as needed. When given the chance they tell them about Christ My church sends teams to different states to do the same thing , and tell them about Christ. Are we perfect, do make mistakes even in doing this , yes we do, are we touted for doing this , yes we are. But what keeps us going is that we try to lead people to the Lord by showing the the love of God in a Godly way. I've kinds got off track but just thought that had to be said. Thanks Mickey
#136.
Jamie, what 8 year old Gaza boy? When I am talking about the whole cult of Islam threatening this world with its insane behaviour it sounds bizarre that you are talking about one boy. What do you desire? Islamists to cut your throat for good or blow you up as they did to the twin towers? There is nothing wrong if these Islamic paedophiles like their prophet paedophile want to go to heaven. But Allah tells them they can go to heaven only if they kill people like you and me who have refused to embrace an inhuman credo that defiles and debases humanity. Islam is pure evil and you cannot create sympathy for these killer lunatics with one Gaza boy.
#137Joseph...there's more than just one Gaza boy...I'm asking you to walk a mile in someone else's shoes. We're not fighting zombies...there is real suffering happening to people that is driving them into the arms of radical Islam. Deny it all you want...but saying Al Qaeda represents true Islam is like saying the KKK represents true Christianity. I've stated before I am not a pacifist. I'm 100% in favor of fighting terrorism. But to win that war, we need allies in the Muslim world. You are in no way helping that cause.
Mickey...thank you for actually attempting to answer my question. A little bit of a round about answer, but I applaud your church's efforts to help those in need. Still shaking my head about the Germany not being a Christian nation, but I suppose what you mean is that they aren't as devout as they used to be. I guarantee you though that people who considered themselves good Christians stood by and watched Jews marched off to their death. It is truly frightening the darkness we humans are capable of when our society falls into madness. In my opinion, that same madness that dehumanizes others is what drives fundamentalist Muslims. And what also worries me is the language used here that dehumanizes all of Islam. As I said before, we don't want to become the mirror image of our enemy. We might not be that yet...but referring to Muslim's as "Satan's People" starts us down that slippery slope. Anyway...all in all you seem to have good intentions, and I hope you see that I do as well. Thanks for your comments.
der Alleswisser...I miss you! No response yet? You may well be my favorite radical extremist. Seriously though....I'm still very curious to know your opinions about how to handle the problems you have with Islam. Are we talking about winning Muslims over, or exterminating them? Or perhaps there is another solution I've missed?
Peace out ya'll!
#138saying Al Qaeda represents true Islam is like saying the KKK represents true Christianity.
This is not an accurate statement. The Bible does not call for Jews or Christians to exterminate all those who are of other religions. On the contrary, it urges "love thy neighbor." The Koran calls repeatedly for Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
Are we talking about winning Muslims over, or exterminating them?
This is a very good question. Certainly exterminating them is not the correct approach. Winning them over would be great, and there are efforts underway to reform Islam. The following is from a Saudi columnist earlier this month:
“If we want to protect our young children from one day becoming fanatics or terrorists, we need to provide them with a completely new culture that is radically different than the religious, intellectual, and social culture that has dominated us for many decades, and still does. Instead of teaching your children hostility, or letting someone else teach them hostility, towards those of other religions, teach [them] religious tolerance, which will [ensure that while] they differ from others in religion, they will share with them their common humanity…
“If he listens to the imam at the mosque praying at the top of his voice for [Allah] to destroy [others], ask him to forget what he heard, and to remember to love all and harbor hatred towards none, and [tell him] that the values that [should] motivate him are those of coexistence and cooperation.
“The families whose children have gotten involved in terrorism responded entirely favorably to this kind of hostile culture, and set extremist individuals as models of what was good and proper for their children.
“If you want to keep your son from being a terrorist, you must teach him to read religious texts not in a fanatical, narrow, and literalist manner, but in a rational manner that is open to changes in reality. The families that lost their children to terrorism abandoned them to those who inculcate in them extremist thoughts based on their extremist and ideological view of the Koran and the sunna. [For them,] one hadith or one Koranic verse read and interpreted in an extremist manner becomes an expression of the essence of the religion, whereas the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.”
So there it is. If we tolerate imams who preach hatred, we will inevitably have radical Islamists here who commit violence. If we tolerate such imams in defense of free speech, we will lose our free speech, as we can all see is happening in the Netherlands, England and in France.
So, let’s say we decide we wish not to tolerate such imams. What is the correct approach? It must be something that is in keeping with our rights to free speech, and also protects us from the methods used by radical Islam to bring about acts of violence.
The correct approach is precisely what needs to be discussed.
#139I do like what the Arabs said because it looks like someone in the Arab nation has it right. Now , we are talking tolerance in the best way. I have read lately some papers where the Jews have said that dureing Christmas they are told to have a Merry Christmas . Well the Jews reply was Merry Christmas back to them. This is tolerance in the religous manner because the Jewish people don't believe that Jesus was the son of God but was a prophet. Millions of people have died in the name of religion over the decades not only the Muslims but dureing the crusades the Cholics killed many to get them to become there religion. Of coars I can go on about other reigions . Religion will send you to hell faster than anything. I am not religios but a Christian who has given his soul , heart and life to Jesus Christ. I'm not perfect , just forgiven becuase I make mistakes ofter because I'm human just like you or anyone else . I see the depravity and we have done to each other which some of it is out of ignorance and some is on perpose. You ask what do we do with the terriosts, well yes we try to explain tolerance but what will happen when there not useing tolerance. The hate mongroals raise there children to be terrorists or let th eimmims teach them but yes that is when the partents step in and put a stop to it. If I am takeing my family to a church that teaches such as killing none believers and torchering them I will pull my family out of that mess. I have talked with several Muslims on this subject and I have found that they just listen and believe what the Immim tells them and cannot descuss with any manner of knowledge the Quaran. They just say that they want me to speak to there leaders. I need to know what my family is listening to and all the enuendoes that is comming out of the pulpit and if I don't , that is not a true family leader. It's like leading your family over a cliff and not telling it is there in a fog knowing it's there.I'm rambling now. Hope this has helped someone Mickey
#140Jamie, it is extremely wrong and childish to suppose that ONLY the radical Islamists are threatening the world. There is no such thing as radical Islam in Islam. Islam itself is horrendously radical. Because Man become civilised many of the horrendous ayats of Islam are not being implemented by "non-radical" Islamists countries out of fear of scorn.
Foremost requirement for a Muslim is to swear by the Kalima: La illahi il-ullah...There is no god but allah; Mohammad is his messenger.
Anyone who swears by kalima is a Muslim whether you call him radical or otherwise. Islam is a stinking, rotten credo that emanated from the IMMEASURABLY dark recess of an evil who called himself prophet.
#141Jamie, I hold in great admiration the Isaac Newtons who had enormous brainpower and put it to productive uses for the benefit of mankind. Make no mistake that Isaac Newton was a very troubled man, he the founder of calculus, mechanical physics, the reflecting telescope as he understood that any refracting telescope was limited by dispersion (the rainbow of the colors) and that reflection is not so limited, and on and on, tremendous horsepower mentally. And on his deathbed he reveals to his maid that his most proud accomplishment was to die a virgin???? Ill tempered, hostile, no competitors (except Liebniz, to whom he revealed too much), he who had the charm of a bouquet of ***holes. But someone who watches an apple fall to the ground and figures out that the moon is in freefall as well, yes, one must take his hat off to this, to stand in awe. And Mozart, dies penniles, and Nikola Tesla, peniless, miserable death. Louis Ampere, his father guillotined, his wife dies young, on his gravestone, "peace at last." But he revealed one of Maxwell's equations. Yes, admiration.
But the point is, Islam could never, and just look at the evidence in the history books, bound by this evil religion, they never will, they produce nothing but murderers and victims, and a death spiral it is. The kids in Gaza, a shame but doomed. The saddest thing is that America would do anything to help them, but the religion forbids it. Americans are a very generous and good people, but if the Gazans find that America has anything to do with some initiative, they are immediately for the opposite, regardless of merit. Look at the billions squandered on these people by inept but at least trying to make things better for these people, the Jimmy Carters, Bill Clintons, and what do we have to show for this? Absolutely nothing, worse than ever. And now the Israelis see this (although they apparently have some Liberals who hope for the best, but it simply is not in the cards, this is a struggle to the death, Israel and Islam). It is the religion. The religion is evil. Just look at what Islam does, look at the track record since the seventh century. Is there hope? I am afraid not. The only hope is for Islamics, the great majority, the evil ones, the lowest percent estimate I have seen is 10 % who are hard core demonic. After the 2005 London bombings a poll showed 26% supported the terrorists. This is fatal. On this site elsewhere you will see an estimate of 36% that are evil. But the other 64%, or 90% at best, what do they do? Silence.
#142Any solution outside of from within Islam is doomed. But have you seen any great Islamics since Muhammod's time? Who would be running Saudi Arabia if a general election was held? That would be Osama bin Laden. The Palistineans voted for who? That would be Hamas and that would be Iran. And what is in the charter of Hamas? That would be the destruction of Israel. So is it reasonable to expect Islam to find a Ghandi or a Churchill? No, sadly no. Do I feel sad at the plight of those Palistinean children who were born into this innocent? Yes I do, I would do anything to help them, I feel for all decent people. The people of Smyrna, Anatolia, the slaughtered 1.5 million simply because of being Unbelievers, yes, sadness, they who were unfortunate enough to be born into that. Islam is the most destructive and evil entity the world has ever known, and I am not a religious person, but I suspect this is the embodiment of evil, Lucifer. It is appalingly evil and I do not see a solution. The majority of people on the planet are good people, but the evil ones are much more determined, and they have prevailed for fourteen centuries, and I fear, expect, this will just get worse and worse. Evil has a way of prevailing. It did in Smyrna and all of Turkey after Smyrna, the history books have been rewritten by the British, French, Italians, and yes, Americans. All for the oil, to appease Islamic Turkey, ignored the evil and even worse, blamed it on the victims, Greeks and Armenians. I somehow feel that mankind is doomed by the sweeping of this under the rug, and worse, praising the wrongdoers and blaming the victims.
If there is a Supreme Being in the starry canopy above (a la Beethoven's Ninth Symphony), this single thing dooms mankind.
“Joy! Joy, bright spark of divinity, daughter of Elysium, fire – inspired we tread thy sanctuary. Thy magic power re-unites all that custom has divided, All men become brothers under the sway of thy gentle wings.” -- Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony Number 9 in D Minor, Opus 125, “Choral,” 1824, Symphonic Rendering of Fredrich Schiller's An die Freude (Ode to Joy)
#143My ancestors owned slaves. My ancestors were Christians. But would you consider anyone owning a slave today a Christian? Thankfully our culture has come a long, long way. But if we could go back in time just a hundred years and you argued for something such as a woman's right to vote, conservative minds of that era would consider you to have "dangerous" liberal beliefs. Blacks were denied equal rights and the majority of whites were as silent about the situation as many Muslims are about terrorism. But that didn't make them bad people. Society is capable of exerting extreme pressure on individuals who stand up against the status quo. And unfortunately, those who do have the courage to make that stand often risk ending up dead.
Vic Rubenfeld...your Saudi columnist said some great things, and I'd like to submit his words as one piece of evidence for Der Alleswisser that not all Muslims are standing by silent (there are more..but we don't have all day, do we?). An ally like that is worth more than any Smart Bomb in the war against terror. President Bush lost us a lot of friends with his "our way or the highway" approach, and I only hope our new president can repair that damage. If we can build up enough trust and support with the people of Pakistan to make them a true ally, perhaps we can take this fight back to the organization who started it.
To clarify, I think Arabs have a bigger problem with America than they do with Christianity specifically. For example, let's look at Iran. In 1953 we supported the overthrow of their democratically elected government, and installed a pro-Western dictatorship. Favoring access to their petroleum fields and concern about Russian influence over human rights, we essentially laid the foundation for the Iranian Revolution of 1979. I imagine our resentment over that incident led to our support of Iraq's invasion of Iran. If I'm not mistaken, our "ally" used chemical weapons against the Iranians...though I have no idea if anyone in our government was aware of it at the time. The point is...Iran is one messed up place, but our hands ain't clean. America has done a lot of good things for a lot of people, but we haven't given everybody there a reason to trust us.
Palestine. Too many people that I talk to have no idea where the Gaza Strip even is, much less what conditions there are like. It's easy to judge suicide bombers as evil, but we might want to take a closer look at what's cooking in the pot they came out of. The Israeli's have every right to defend themselves, but recent military operations seem only to exacerbate the situation. The ability of Palestinians to move about is restricted, and thus any chance of economic growth is constricted. Poverty is an environment extremist with resources love to exploit.
Joseph....what denomination do you consider the most dangerous...Sunni, Shi'a, Sufism, the Ibadi's? Who are the holiest Christians...Catholics, Baptist, Presbyterians, or Methodist? Have you ever met someone who agreed with you about everything? If a child in Africa is stolen from his family and forced to fight as a soldier, and that child commits horrific acts of violence before himself being killed, will God send him to Hell? Do you think Jesus would drop bombs on Muslims? Do you think these are childish questions?
#144Islam spread by brutally crushing others. History has recorded this unusually cruel behaviour. In India, for instance, many of the Indian towns were first completely ravaged and vandalized and brutalised. Only a handful of people were left with most of the men put to death in the first flurry of brutal attack. Not left with any belongings a handful of women were seen cowering barely having a piece of cloth to cover their shame as they hid in a corner naked. The Islamists plunderers then set on to convert after raping the women and children. This is too Satanic to describe. This is how Islam spread.
I am sure the Bastard, Paedophile Prophet Mohammad is rotting in hell and is penis is being roasted in hellfire.
#145The Koran calls repeatedly for Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
Vic Rubenfeld...I touch base on this again because I think it critically important that I understand what you are saying. The Saudi columnist states in the letter that you posted...."the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.” This statement seems to contradict your earlier assertion of what the Koran calls for, but I'm assuming you give merit to his words since you're using this guy to back up your point.
It seems to me that there are some very basic principles that respectable Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, and even atheists can agree on. You obviously have a lot of hits on this website, so it's fair to say you have more influence on more people than I ever will. I implore that you temper the negative treatment of Islam with genuine concern for the welfare and concern of our Arab allies.
Mickey...if you truly believe that there are Muslims who are good people, will you not speak up when others say that they are all pure evil and can't be trusted or worked with in any way?
#146Joseph....Not once have I denied Islam has a dark history. But so does Christianity. The Koran probably has a dark side, but I know for a fact the Bible does. I so wish life were as clear for me as it is for you...us against them, good against evil. Your world is pristine in it's elegant design...so much like Star Wars. Use the force Luke! Resist the temptations of the dark side!
Life for me is cloudy. I see good and evil everywhere...even in myself. You're right....I'm a fool. The only difference between us is that I realize it. The real world is full of fools who's tiny minds can never grasp the awesome entirety of events that surround them as they muddle day by day through life and the infintesimally small position they hold in both time and space.
#147Certainly there are good Muslims. Paul Saladin who has posted here before I believe is a good man who does try to make a difference. And yes, there were Muslim Beethovens, Teslas, Gausses,... but the religion smothered them, would not let them contribute, as this goes against Allah having preordained everything. But the Paul Saladdins of the Muslim world are our only hope, it simply cannot be dictated, bombed, .... that cannot prevail, only the goodness of mankind, what is right and wrong, only a struggle for morality has any hope of prevailing.
The fundamental problem is that any Muslim who speaks out for good over evil is in trouble with the Quran, and can even be put to death for Apostasy. It is not permitted to question the Quran, it is seen to be not even created but always there, those who have questioned this before have been beheaded.
On page 36 of "Defeating Jihad," by Serge Trifkovic, you have "Of all major religions known to man, the teaching of Islam makes it the least amenable to dialogue with other faiths. Its legal code, Sharia, cannot be penetrated by reason, and the very attempt is frrbidden heresy.......The notion of popular sovereignty is heretical, as power belongs to Allah alone. ...... The state MUST be a theocracy ruled by the Khalif as Allah's regent on earth, or else it is illegitimate. Giving primary allegiance to a secular non-Islamic state and willingly respecting its commandments even when they contradict the word of Allah as revealed by the Prophet would be, under Sharia, an act of apostasy punishable by death. Since Muhammad is the final prophet, there CAN BE NO FURTHER DEVELOPMENT IN ANY JUDICIAL MATTERS WHERE THE KURAN AND SUNNA PROVIDE GIUDANCE. (caps added for emphasis). This undermines the possibility of rational civic debate in Muslim nations and limits the ability of Muslims to partake in good faith in the civic life of a non-Muslim society."
Basically it is punishable by death to question the religion, and for this reason, unlike Christianity, there can be no historical progression. This is the fatal flaw of Islam, and it is why you get the silence from Muslim world as to what is right and wrong. Even worse, the general reaction of the Muslim world to 9/11 was delight. You had the Palistineans replaying the airplanes going into the Twin Towers over and over and dancing in the streets. And we have given billions to these people and done more than anyone else to help them. The Europeans as usual, sit on the sidelines and watch America do everything while they do nothing and then criticise America. This is why the hope for Europe is so dim, as America was the key in liberating them from the Nazis. No America, no victory in Europe. And they have lived under the protection of the American Nuclear Umbrella and the US Army in Germany since the end of WWII, with the notion by America that this would make them good Allies and goodness would prevail in the world. But this just is not working out, they are useless as allies. Especially the French and Spainards. And it appears that Europe will fall into darkness, not good for mankind everywhere. Only China and India, due to their population numbers may survive. What protects America, or at least has, is two oceans and Mexico and Canada as neighbors. But there is some alarm about the stability of Mexico, and I would not be surprised, I even expect it, that Islamics will or already are flocking to Mexico to try to penetrate America through those porous borders, knowing that America is being ruled by the clueless proxy murdurers Dhimmicrats who are letting evil go from GITMO.
#148China, best stop your birth control, this evil is coming at the rest of the world with overwhelming population growth, and if you saw the movie "Darkness Falls," Islam may bring that movie's ending to the world, not in a theater. That at least, is their intent.
We may think that Islam will follow a historical progression as has Christianity but there is no factual basis for this expectation, as their religion strictly forbids it, and if any Muslim speaks out, he is subject to death. To convert from Islam is punishable by death. This alone reveals the evil pith of Islam. The Sufi Islamics, somewhat mystical but not the demonic Whabbiasts of Saudi Arabia, according to the above mentioned Serge Trifkovic in that book, are "as relevant in Islam as the snake handler religions of Appalachia."
And Jamie, do not be fooled by those sweet sounding verses of the Quran, as Islam, when there are contradictions in the Quran, apply the principle of abrogation. Islam has divinely - mandated lying to Unbelievers to promote Islam, known as al Taqiyya, and so they quote verses like "to kill a single human being is to kill all of mankind" from the earlier verses of Mecca, while fully knowing these are all abrogated by the final chapter of the Quran, Sura 9, and as the latter verses render the earlier verses meaningless, most Americans are just too ignorant to know they are being lied to. You see a semi literate posting from time to time here, about how peaceful Islam is. It is not, this is the Greatest Lie Ever Told. And there you have the verse of the Sword, this from Trifkovic's book above mentioned:
***”The Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5: ‘fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft – Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (This is the well – known aspect of Islam, in brief, “Convert or die.”***”This single verse, The Verse of the Sword, Islamic scholars agree that it abrogates 124 earlier verses – the ones that are quoted most regularly by Islam’s apologists to prove its tolerance and benevolence as a ‘religion of peace.’” (This brings memories of the mantra and most enduring quote from the movie The Usual Suspects, “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.” Just tell the Unbelievers the Happy Stuff. They are stupid and elect stupid leaders.)
I talk to the Islamic people I meet here in America, and all seem decent and good, they are the first victims of Islam, as Earnest Renan said 150 years ago. And so here they feel safe, the girls go to school, they wear blue jeans with their head scarves on, while in their nation of origin they may be beheadded for this, along with their teachers, for commiting the sin of educating girls. This is the biggest sin of all: denying half of their people the right to contribute, and treating them as less than equal.
Which will prevail, Good or Evil? Will Darkness Fall on Mankind?
#149Der Alleswisser....you say you've met Islamic people who seem decent and good. When you meet them, do you let them know how evil you think their religion is? Or do you say nothing to their face and settle for stabbing them in the back here? The Koran contradicts itself...your point? The Bible contradicts itself too....an eye for an eye in the Old Testament, turn the other cheek in the New. Many Christians read the same Bible, yet come to different conclusions about the message. Islam is no different...Muslims spend as much time arguing with each other as they do with us. God's children...everywhere fighting.
You spend so much time researching history...can you tell us about the impact created by Europe's colonization of the Middle East? Was it positive? Do you think the random lines they drew in the sand without regard to culture laid a strong foundation for the growth of those nations? Has our support of dictatorships and brutal governments that served our purposes endeared America to the hearts of the people there?
You say....
"The notion of popular sovereignty is heretical, as power belongs to Allah alone. ...... The state MUST be a theocracy ruled by the Khalif as Allah’s regent on earth, or else it is illegitimate"
How many Islamic states are theocracies? Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only ones I came up with. I'll tell you this though...I'm very much perplexed by the idea of Turkey joining the European Union. My message here is that Islam is not pure evil, and that we can work with Muslim allies to defeat terrorism. That doesn't make me Islam's #1 cheerleader. We can live and let live, but cultural differences to me seem too great to start tying that kind of knot. As far as Muslim immigrants go, as long as they obey the law, they can believe whatever they want. In the opinion of many Christians, and according to the text, I'm going straight to Hell....do not pass go, do not collect $200. If any Muslim believes they're obligated to speed up my journey, I would remind them of "[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors" As long as I don't oppress them, the Koran says they gotta' let me be. This is not me being suckered in by a "sweet sounding verse". I've forced myself to read bits and pieces of this book, and God is it boring. I'm not what most people would consider Christian, but I find reading about Jesus a bit more inspirational. As for the Old Testament and Revelations...dark and violent...a fascinating read but I wouldn't let my kids watch it if they made it into a movie.
#150You were talking about the Bible contridicting itself , well , let me see, I read a verse that said Judas went out and hanged himself, another verse somewhere else says do thy likwise. Well I wonder why the Bible told me to do that. Oh, did I say that?! Take the Bible out of context and thats what you get. And if you can't seem to understand the Bible , your reading someone elses mail. I have problems with some blacks. Does that mean that I'm to tell everyone that I meet of my problem with them That would be stupid. Something else, why is it that it's the men and not the women who like your religion. Maybe it's the vergins your allah has waiting for you ?? Were are the virgins comming from? Ask your women if they love sharia law? I don't think so!!!!!! Mickey
#151Jamie, who is talking about the dark history of anyone? We are talking of the current and future history of a stinking, dangerous and virulent credo that seeks to annihilate all of us. First ask yourself whether Koran is similar to any other religious book. If you say yes than I have nothing to talk to you. It will be madness to do so and waste of my time. Koran is the most deadliest of all sins let loose on an unsuspecting mankind by dark, evil forces. Make no mistake about that. Let this sink into you as quickly as possible. If still you want to use sophistry and fool yourself thinking that you are fooling me I can only feel sorry for you and the mental state you are being in.
#152Mickey...I was replying to Der Alleswisser's assertion that the Koran contradicts itself by pointing out that the Bible does as well. It's fair in neither case. As you say...those contradictions often show up when people take things out of context.
You say if I can't understand the Bible, I'm reading someone else's mail? I really have no idea at all what you're trying to say there.
Perhaps my question to Der Alleswisser regarding his interactions with Muslims was worded a bit too strongly. But my curiousity remains, has he ever gotten around to knowing any of these people he's met well enough that they knew he considered their religion evil? Perhaps more nicely worded, but also more boring. Nothing like a nice incendiary comment to stir up another long winded diatribe.
My religion? Is this sarcasm? I don't like even like Islam, which is part of the great irony that I'm here defending it. I'm going to have to assume that either 1)you've only read about half of what I've written in my prior posts, or 2) you're making a joke. In which case....good one, Mickey. BTW, you misspelled virgins.
#153Joseph...Printing in all bold letters doesn't help your fanatical ramblings make any more sense to me. Hate Islam all you want....that's really fine with me. But we're fighting a war against terrorism to fight that's hard enough already without you trying to get us to take on all 1.2 billion Muslims.
Let's focus here people....what is our #1 goal? Except for Joseph, I feel the rest of us have pretty much established that we can't kill all the Muslims in the world, and even if we could Jesus probably wouldn't approve of that approach. I think Der Alleswisser has pretty much given up hope for victory and is awaiting the arrival of the Islamic Hordes with a loaded shot gun and enough historical info to bore the life out of anyone within a 50 mile radius. Vic Rubenfeld agreed with me that the correct approach to the problem needs to be discussed, and then has remained completely silent...most waiting for one of us to say something interesting. And Mickey fell asleep halfway through the discussion and now thinks I'm a terrorist.
Does anyone have anything new and constructive to say....or are we just beating a dead Arabian horse here?
#154BTW...if you weren't able to think of our #1 goal...it's defeating terrorism and growing peace in the Middle East. Can I hear a "yes we can!"......
"crickets chirping"
#155I hate it when either Spellcheck or me fall asleep but I'm back now I guess. What I was eluding to was the Bible is more understood if prayed over before each time you read it and the bible is a composition of many letters written. In a nut shell I love the Islamic people but hate there religion. I have tryed to talk with them but they must not understand there on Quaran because they just want me to talk to there Imiem ( however it's spelt) not understanding it enough for dialogue. I am told the Muslims here don't believe all of the Quaran . However what lead to the father killing his own daughter while she was on the phone with 911 or the husband that cut his wifes head off. Is Sharia law or what. As a Christian I pray for the words to try to turn there heards from such a demonic belief. Mickey
#156I do not get into a deep discussion with Islamics as they are strangers. I play very naive and I suppose that could be called deceitful, perhaps my version of al Taqiyya, but I am not trying to promote any religion, I am simply using the world as my labratory, trying to assess who these people are and are they of CAIR (Hamas, a fifth column here). Over and over again I hear their hopelessness with regard to their home countries: "Is Morocco a nice country,,,,,no it is not ----- Is Pakistan a nice country ........ lots of problems-----will you ever go back ,,,,,,,no, all my children are here ,,,,,,,,is there any hope for Israel and Islam ------shakes head ------ why all the trouble with Islam in Mumbai and India ......it is the Muslims----they try to kill everyone ---- why cannot the Muslims in Pakistan get along with the Indians,,,,,will it ever end.....just looks at me. Yes, I do not let them know what I know, I come across as just a curious Westerner. And this curious one, "Why so much trouble with Islam......Islam teaches you that if you (touches my hand gently) that this is an unforgivable sin. Now this touch was obviously harmless totally and that was the point, I could not tell if this was al Taqiyya or genuine, these guys were very polite and operated a restaurant (Greek believe it or not with all the stuff with Smyrna, Thrace, and now Macedonia, the Armenian genocide) but it did have a mideast flavor as well.
Loaded shotgun, waiting for the Islamic hoardes? Not here, or at least not yet, and maybe they will actually shed their religion for the free Western vision, but maybe not, their religions forbids it. It really is a battle of Good vs. Evil, they have no chance to find goodness in their native countries as there are mosques everywhere and nothing else is allowed and to convert is apostasy, they are ruled by a terribly evil few men, as Earnest Renan said 150 years ago. It is only here in America that this can happen, it cannot happen in Europe, as even they will tell you that their society is not as open to foreigners as is America, and so this is where there needs to be fear due to these riots when ANYTHING happens regardless of country.
#157Even a Netherlander told me just two days ago, "A black man could never be voted President in my country." Not that this a good thing mind you, it could be the end of greatness, as you may have noticed that with each bailout the market tumbles again, as we are just printing money, "Generational Theft," more dollars chasing the same goods and services, causing inflation, as this is good for government as the government is the biggest debtor of all and inflation causes a cash flow from lenders and debtors, and so the government is able to repay obligations with money that is not worth as much as it was when obligated. The Chinese are very concerned about this, and it could trigger a global recession. But most pernicious of all is that the Democrats are buying votes, pandering to losers, illegals, ... and before you go off on the needs of needy people keep in mind that charity is a wonderful thing, but to take from people who have paid their mortgages and made sound decisions is stealing. And it is done to buy votes, fully 40% of Americans pay no taxes at all and so now they will get a check from people who do --- this is socialism pure and simple.
But Islam, it is very incremental what has happened in Europe and I fear that some are going to be very shocked at what is to come there. Is America a different animal due to its openess and freedom ( at least before the pandering ad hominem socialist hand out Democrats), in that kind of open society goodness at least has a chance. Could a historical progression occur for the first time here or will it be just more al Taqiyya? It is this generation's problem to figure out, not mine, mine was Viet Nam (perhaps the wrong war and maybe not even a good one). The premise for that war was the Domino Theory, all of Asia falls to Communism should Viet Nam fall. That may have not been true, but it could have the right slogan for the wrong war, it may be that if Pakistan and/or Turkey goes DemonicStan as did Iran the global sitution deterioates into chaos.
#158This is the assertion of Serge Trifkovic, the aforementioned in "Defeating Jihad.' That is, should there ever be democracy in Turkey or elsewhere it will be just like Hamas in Palistine, and Israel will have to use its nuclear weapons to survive. It may anyway, if you picked up on that little comment about how GWBush (surprisingly) withheld bunker busting bombs, and so may unwittingly forced Israel to open the bottle for the genie.
And finally, it is also said that (by Trifkovic) that it was not that Islam defeated and brought down the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, as they think, but it was Viet Nam that drained the Soviet Union and so their collapse in Afghanistan was certain anyway.
Is he correct? Meet Mr. Trifkovic in the dvd, get it on Netflix or anywhere, "Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam." Make your own decision.
#159You guys must have been tearing your hair out everytime George Bush called Islam a "religion of peace". And what a terrible waste of time, blood, and money you must consider the war in Iraq....by your logic, anything we might build there would crumble and fall because Islam continues to be their source of spiritual inspiration.
Let me throw a shocker out there for everybody....I voted for Obama. Will he be able to fix the mess that he inherited? I don't know. I do know that even if the stimulus package pulls this economy out of a nose dive, if peace somehow miraculously runs rampant through the Middle East, and if science can find cleaner, more efficient sources for energy and fuel....it still won't matter to some people. Not one of the Presidents carved into Mount Rushmore was loved by everyone. No president is perfect, and it's silly to think that one man can fix this world. He is flesh and blood....and you can say you think he's an idiot...but please respect that he loves this country, and he is trying to do what he thinks is best for our nation....just like Bush did. I voted for him because I believe he sincerely he is the exact kind of leader we need right now...someone who brings out the best in others. Someone who is able to build bridges between bitter rivals. Someone who can accept when he's wrong, and steer the ship back in the right direction. My opinion...many will disagree...you'll get your chance to vote him out in 4 years. As for now, it's only been one month and it is extremely way too early to start drawing conclusions.
Der Alleswisser....I asked a question, and I'll ask it again. With all your knowledge of the Middle East, can you explore the long term effects of European colonialism on Islamic nations, if any? Did the lines drawn in the sand that created these nations provide any realistic hope of them having a chance at prosperity, or were they perhaps an attempt to ensure these places would remain weak and divided? I mean, Sunnis and Shias didn't like each other then...did they expect that to change?
#160Mickey....take what you're saying and turn it around... what percentage of Christians 1) have read all of the Good Book, and 2) agree on what they've read? Yes...people use religion to justify their insanity...like the people in Heaven's Gate who killed themselves in 1997. But the average person, regardless of religion, is not that hard core.
When someone dedicates their life to religion, it takes several years of intense study to become an "expert". It's there job to answer the tough questions...not the average Mr. Islam or Mr. Christian you might meet on the street.
Pray for all of us...treat others as you would have them treat you...do good things. But if I might make a suggestion, you will never win converts by approaching a discussion from a condescending angle...which whether you intended it is what I perceived when you mistook me for a Muslim and started rambling about the virgins Allah has waiting for me. If I were actually a Muslim, I probably would have been offended.
#161Vik Rubenfield seems nervous when someone condemns Islam.
Make no mistake. Unless the world condemns Islam unequivocally then only we can control the menace.
#162Vik Rubenfeld...How do you answer Joseph? If you don't agree with me that we should refrain from Islamophobic language that isolates us from our Muslim allies in our efforts to fight the terrorists, then where do you stand?
#163One debate at a time per customer, Jamie. You and I are currently involved in another discussion in this thread.
#164Islam is a cult that was propagated by a paedophile and treacherous megalomainac who called himself Prophet. Can this be denied?
Islam has caused enough havoc to decency and decorum. It is going to die a natural death like communism one day. I think that is why the Islamic terrorists are fluttering violently and killing themselves like moths with a vengeance as they know that Islam has become a rotten, putrid egg .
By the way the paedophile Mohammad had told his terrified followers to do the opposite of what others (civilised world) does so as to look different. I had nauseated when I used to visit some Muslim households because as per paedophile's instructions many would not take bath and even spit inside their houses as the kufrs spit outside.
An evil who called himself prophet will not pray for his mother because she was not a Muslim as she had died before the pervert thought about Islam.
World should throw away all niceties and condemn Islam once and for all. Politicians follow a policy of appeasement calling "Islam a religion of peace!" This is adding fuel to the fire. Calling Islam a peaceful religion is like comparing Hitler with Mother Teresa.
#165I was brought to England in 1944 at 6yrs of age with my brother & 2sisters, my father had just left army in1943,my mother joined him here, they both worked hard to obtain accomodation before bringing us over,we had a good up bringing,went to school,church on sunday, later I was conscripted & signed on as a regular, got demobbed,married,had 3 daughters wed & have 3 g/children.
I am now 72, & over the last sixty odd years I have seen many people come to England,Irish,Jews,many Europeans,W/indians,Asians, East Asians & many more.A lot of these suffered verbal,racial & sometimes physical abuse,but they all mingled in to the communities.worked together & mixed with their neighbours,went to their places of worship,made no demands for special treatment to their local authorities,they accepted & abided by the laws of the land,contented with their lot [education,health service& benefit system unknown in some of their homelands] So can someone please explain to me why there many demands from the muslims?they want their own schools, dress codes,laws[Sharia],more mosques,& [larger ones]& we are constantly being told not to say or do anything which might be offensive towards Islam yet we are constantly rebuked over our celebrations,EASTER,CHRISTMAS, Nativity plays.
Jews Indians, Sikhs,Buddists,Chinese,no complaints from these.What about Christianity, older than Islam, we dont take offence at EID,YOM KIPPUR DWALHI,ST Patricks Day parade in B,ham is the 3rd largest in the world,thousand of people,all nationalities watch it. So to all of you out there who are not happy with the British way of life,you are quite welcome to leave.
Democracy is fine for me,I can protest at anything I dont like,wear what I like,say what I like,as long as I dont offend others [try wearing any other religious decoration in an Islamic country & find out the result].Oh,did I mention the country I came from, [IRELAND] but happy to be here. this letter is not racist or Islamaphobic, just an observation by a contented citizen
#166Joe Boyd is proving my point. The politicians have been so nasty as to portray Islam as a “religion of peace” that even a peace loving guy like Joe needs to say in self-defence that “his letter is not racist or Islamaphobic, just an observation by a contented citizen.” That is why I am crying hoarse urging world community to stand up and condemn the barbaric Islam unequivocally. This is better than saying “these terrorists are only a handful unlike the large mass of Muslims who love peace.”A Muslim is a Muslim by whatever way you describe him. His ultimate loyalty is to his paedophile prophet. He is not a Muslim if he does not swear by the evil kalima first. This means he is actually reiterating his allegiance to the paedophile who justified his marriage to 6 year old Ayesha saying “the consent of a virgin is her silence.”
#167Joe Boyd isn't proving your point. He's proving that some Muslims are jerks. That's easy to do because they're people and some people think the world revolves around what they want.
So there are Muslims in England who don't want to assimilate? There are plenty of Mexicans here guilty of the same thing. Does that mean we should attack their religion?
Making the leap from complaining about political correctness run amok to condemning an entire religion is like trying to jump the Grand Canyon on a Big Wheel.
#168We can wake up a sleeping man; not one who is pretending to. This is the problem with Jamie. It is shocking that Jamie should equate an utterly evil credo like Islam with poor Mexicans.
Who is this jamie? An ISlamofascist?
#169Mexicans will never present the danger that Islamic do, their religion is basically the same as ours and their religion does not tell them to slay the unbeliever in every strategm, and to smite the heads off of the unbeliever. Not an Us vs. Them thing here, just Democrats who like to give illegals our tax dollars so they will vote Democrat. The problem here is us, not Mexicans, and there is a preponderence of evidence that the problem with Islam, not just now but for the last fourteen centuries, their albatross is their religion, and we address it sooner or later. The choice to put this off will become harder as their numbers grow and more come to Europe and here, with our politicians ignoring the danger in favor of Political Correctness and Multiculturalism, this silly notion of abandoning the democratic concept of a people viz. a time, a place, and a value set.
#170In reply to JOSEPH, there is nothing wrong with any religion, the wrong is done by the people running it. As for peodophiles you only have to look at SOME not all catholic priests, & the atrocities committed by them around the world,even some of the nuns were frusrated sadists, ARTANE industrial school in DUBLIN,EIRE, had an appalling record of verbal,physical,sexual abuse & murder which was covered up by the church & government in ireland, a lot of these priest were relocated to all parts of the world, there are no records of this chool pre 1940, apparently there was a fire which destroyed a lot of documentation,[very convenient].the catholic church should recind the vows of chastity & allow priests to marry,as they have feelings & emotions like us all, not saying this would stop the peodophiles, as we have them all around us in our lives.
needless to say there are many good,true,honest & caring members in the clergy, St Peters in Rome is very beautiful, but I found it obcene, the wealth,icons, tapestries, & the art,Did Jesus Christ live in a place like that?.
no, around the world,religion is big buisiness, they rake it in,yet half the world starves,As for ISLAM, what are all the rich ARAB countries doing about places like DARFUR & other impoverished MUSLIM states,
I THINK I HAVE SAID IT ALL
#171Joseph....you don't have to be Islamic to feel that Muslims are both good and evil, just like every other human being on Earth. As far as my religion goes, I grew up Baptist and still have fondness for the parts of the Bible written with red letters. But since I don't believe you absolutely have to accept Jesus to make it to heaven, I suppose I don't qualify as a true Christian anymore. I enjoy reading the Tao Te Ching...but that's not really a religion...more like a philosophy.
I consider myself a moderate Democrat. I voted for Obama. If you want to insult me, you should really go more with a Socialist angle. My Republican friends would be the fascists (just kidding people...don't bombard me with posts). Anyway, enough about me.
Joe Boyd....Excellent point about Arab countries not reaching out to their neighbors in Sudan. I really wish our leaders would give that sentiment a shout out. Maybe we should do more to help as well, but I think overall our two nations have excellent track records regarding humanitarian aid. We just need to do a better job of getting that message out to people...for the last 8 years our marketing skills and PR people have sucked (in my humble opinion).
#172It is too naïve for someone to say that “there is nothing wrong with any religion, the wrong is done by the people running it” when exceptionally evil credo like Islam is concerned. Yes, Church had committed infinte number of atrocities. So what? Is the Church doing it today. Why? Because Christianity does not teach its followers to kill and maim as Islam does. Islam is unique. Please do not compare it with any other ISM. It is frustrating to explain this Ad nauseam. I could have partially expected Islamic argument that kafirs have no right to live and must be put to death had this evil Islam been an ancient religion like others. The upstart was born recently in the chronology of civilization and he perverted all good human values. There is no need to list all of them here. Islam an upstart credo that was bandied as religion has been murderous from day one. Wiping out humanity has been its goal. Bani Qurayzas were its first mass victims. It has a negative outlook about others and all civilized symbols and art are its target. Even the fountainhead of Islam that every faithful has to swear and utter to confirm he is a Muslim starts with a negative. “No god but…” Obviously when you start emphatically that there is no god then logically can allah be a god? Why pervert an otherwise positive statement like “There is only one god and He is Allah” Islam has no loyalty to the adopted country. It is a different matter that some Muslims may have shown loyalty. This does not make all Muslims the same. Exceptions cannot prove a rule. A good Muslim exists like a good criminal who wants to be reformed. It is Nature’s Las that for ever thing there is an exception. It should not be used to buttress an exceptionally cruel credo like Islam. God know what more catastrophes the paedophiles are planning!
#173It is too naïve for someone to say that “there is nothing wrong with any religion, the wrong is done by the people running it” when exceptionally evil credo like Islam is concerned. Yes, Church had committed infinte number of atrocities. So what? Is the Church doing it today. Why? Because Christianity does not teach its followers to kill and maim as Islam does. Islam is unique. Please do not compare it with any other “ISM.”It is frustrating to explain this Ad nauseam. I could have partially accepted the vile Islamic argument that kafirs have no right to live and must be put to death had this evil Islam been an ancient religion like others. The upstart was born recently in the chronology of civilization and he perverted all good human values. There is no need to list all of them here. Islam an upstart credo that was bandied as religion has been murderous from day one. Wiping out humanity has been its goal. Bani Qurayzas were its first mass victims. It has a negative outlook about others and all civilized symbols and art are its target. Even the fountainhead of Islam that every faithful has to swear and utter to confirm he is a Muslim starts with a negative. “No god but…” Obviously when you start emphatically that there is no god then logically can allah be a god? Why pervert an otherwise positive statement like “There is only one god and He is Allah” Islam has no loyalty to the adopted country. It is a different matter that some Muslims may have shown loyalty. This does not make all Muslims the same. Exceptions cannot prove a rule. A good Muslim exists like a good criminal who wants to be reformed. It is Nature’s Las that for ever thing there is an exception. It should not be used to buttress an exceptionally cruel credo like Islam. God know what more catastrophes the paedophiles are planning!
#174
#175From "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain....
An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"
The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.
"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
#176Joseph...What do you offer us other than destruction? You are full of such bitterness and self rightousness that I can only imagine a Muslim must have done something really, really bad to you.
I offer this to you, which I copied from somewhere else just for you...
Do not turn people off with your religion. Do not criticise,
condemn or complain, instead fatten those not sharing your faith, as
yet, with friendship. We do not see things as they are but we see things as we are.
TEXT:
Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you”.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. . . ..
16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to
associate with people of low position.. .. 17 Do not repay anyone evil
for evil.
Tearing things down comes easy at first. But if you think Islam can be brought down by the sword (or in this case, your forked tongue), then you are sadly mistaken. Following the path Jesus left for us is a difficult road to trek, but are the fruits not sweeter for those who grow peace? Put another way, you'll catch more bees with honey than vinegar.
#177Jamie I never said kill all Muslims and be done away with it, did I? I am just warning woolly-headed Chamberlains not to take Muslims or their faith at face value. Never make the mistake of equating Islam with a religion. It is the credo of a lunatic who was also a rapist par excellence. He snatched his OWN step-son Zayed’s wife. When Zayed knew Mohammad had him cold he divorced his wife and this monster prophet “married” her and took her against all norms of basic human decency. No Muslim has ever harmed me. Instead many have helped me and I am grateful to them. I have a few good friends with whom I keep talking on the phone. So don’t try to confuse the issue. Can you answer a simple question. If all religions are pathways to God why is Saudi Arabia not allowing anyone to pray except one who is a Muslim? Why does Muslims keep quiet over this atrocious behaviour. It is so because Islam is what it is. By inventing goodness in a Muslim who is loyal to his religion you are gilding a cruel credo with pious lilies. I thought 9/11 would have opened the eyes of the world. It seems many Chamberlains are still beholden to this evil cult.
#178The Mark Twain thing, and yes, there are a few truculent verses in the Bible, the smashing of children's heads against rocks if they are enemies, the death of those who work on the Sabbath, but read Robert Spencer's "Politically - Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades" and see how disproportionate those verses are in the Quran as compared to the Bible. And most importantly of all, note that those Priests who were pedophiles were prosected, and no, the Catholic church does not preach with waving swords and talking about rocks saying "there is Jew behind me so come over here and kill him" and other such evil prattle that passes as religion. Something is wrong with these people, badly wrong, and I suspect it is the religion that perputuates the masses antiintelluctualism, rigid adherance to the Quran and no progress in science and culture whatsoever. If they did not have oil, they would have nothing to offer but a few figs and pistachios and maybe some pottery. Is it a chicken and the egg thing, do they remain this way because of the religion, or does the religion cause them to remain this way.
Christians have behaved stupidly before, the Catholic church put Gallieo on trial for talking about falling bodies and motion, Copernicus was in fear for his life to the extent that he offered a red heron to mitigate the impact of him saying the sun and not the earth was at the center of the solar system.
#179America put a man on the moon long ago in 1969, and Islam's biggest contribution is what, a sextant or something, and basically nothing since the eleventh century. It cannot be explained away, something is badly wrong here and ignoring it in favor of Multiculturalism is silly.
Islamic countries help in Darfur?? Did you notice that they did next to nothing to help the tsunami victims in 2004, this because Islam does not approve of beaches with pretty girls in bathing suits, so un - Islamic. Darfur, the Sudan, over a million murdured and climing because of this religion? The Islamic countries do nothing because they support it, this being the spreading of Islam by the Sword, which talk about the Quran vs. the Bible all you want, but this is what Islam has done since the 7th century, and now its biggest weapon is its birthrate and the increasing large Muslim diaspora abroad, now a lethal threat to Europe which due to high housing costs has very low birthrates, with many below the replacement rate. The Italians, Russians, French, ..... will simply disappear and those lands will become Islamic as time progresses. This is what Bat y'eor has been warning of, read "Eurabia, Land of Dhimmitude." And Europe, if you do not know what a Dhimmi is, you will first hand if you do not change course.
#180Oh, and Jamie, I have a large Rush Limbaugh t - shirt that I could send you, Rush is big on socialism and Barack is his man, I would let you have mine if you like.
#181Here's some British Muslims working to help Darfur....
Muslim stars sing to help Darfur http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44190000/jpg/_44190351_concert_getty203b.jpg Sami Yusuf has visited Darfur and spoken to refugeesThousands of people attended a charity concert in London to raise money for war-torn Darfur.
The event on Sunday at Wembley Arena was to highlight the crisis in the Sudanese region and featured some of the Muslim world's biggest stars.
Among them was Sami Yusuf - dubbed the Islamic Bono - and Texan country and western singer Kareem Salama.
The director of Islamic Relief said British Muslims must unite and "raise their voices" over the issue of Darfur.
#182The response of Arab nations to the situation has indeed been inadequate. And considering the way censorship works in that part of the world, it's not a surprise that many people living there rarely have a clear picture of the whole story (I don't know what Joseph's excuse is). Is this control of the media the result of corrupt governments that took control after the end of colonial rule, or is it the symptom of an evil religion? Every individual must judge for themselves.
Der Alleswisser....my response to Vik Rubenfeld in the thread "Unassimilated Islam" is pretty much the same response I give to you. If it isn't good enough for you, then that's just the way it goes, right? No one's convinced me to change my views either. I've enjoyed the challenge, but we probably have long past the point where we're just dancing around in a circle.
A large Rush Limbaugh shirt, eh? Can there be any other kind? Rush will never admit it, but he had to be absolutely ecstatic when Obama was elected. Not having a President he could blame everything on for the last 8 years, I almost forgot he existed.
Joseph....whatever and ever, amen.
#183If anyone laughs at the suggestion I have no problem. Osama bin Laden is the reincarnation of paedophile evil prophet Mohammad.
#184Rush enjoys enormous popularity because of who he is, basic and not corruptible. He says what he thinks, he honors the truth, substance over style. That is why he did not last long as a sports commentator, this is a nation that no longer respects the Truth, it now favors victimology and Political Correctness. He is deeply troubled about the explosion of socialism and the abandonment of basic principles handed down by our founders. Even Clint Eastwood has taken on this slant, no longer the Dirty Harry character taking out the criminals that the lawyers let out of jail over and over, evil prevailing due to lawyers.
But there is a connection. The liberal lawyers of the 70s letting bad guys go for profit nevermind that these folks would kill again and again has now morphed into Democrat lawyers letting terrorists go from GITMO nevermind they are far more dangerous than the pale in comparison guys Dirty Harry went after. We have become a nation of whiners and losers, and Barack says handout and everyone runs out an votes for him. Fully 40% of Americans now pay no tax at all and so now they will eagerly anticipate April 15th every year because they will get a check. This is stealing, also known as socialism. Some charity is a good thing, but not to the extent that we have gone to. Now people who are responsible and obtain mortgages that they can afford will be also paying for those who think they are "entitled" to the good life nevermind they cannot pay for it. A new playstation comes out, everyone feels entitled to one so they buy one. They need a new car every three years nevermind the one they trade in only has 60,000 miles on it. We Americans too often confuse "want" with "need."
#185And if something bad happens to us, we run and sue. We are entitled victims, and the Democratic Party panders to these people for votes. Those 40% who will now anticipate the check from April 15th every year will surely vote Democratic. Those whose mortgages are being paid by others will surely vote Democratic. Only once have I heard said of Barack (but not sure, not a direct quote, but attributed to him) was something about reparations for slavery. If this is true and it comes out of his mouth, watch your nation unravel.
Let's say you have to use an Operating Room for surgery, do you know what the bill is for that, just the operating room for say three hours? Try about $15,000? Does it really cost that? No, it is you or your insurance paying for maybe thirty folks who did not pay. This is what liberal Democrats do for you. Not sure but I think it was Jimmy Carter who started giving tax dollars and Social Security to illegal immigrants. Why is it that they can pour into the country and immediately go get food stamps and welfare? It is the Democrats, who fail to understand that they simply would not come if they did not know they they could do this. Do the Democrats care? No, they have future voters, and so they can tax and spend and buy more voters.
Just like Islam is the cancer of religions, in that they produce nothing and so flourish by taking over other civilizations and looting (read Smyrna and other history books, and you will see that it is the looting and raping that motivates the Islamic maurauders, and 20% goes to Muhammad and his successors), the Democrats loot taxpayers and tell them victimology stuff about how oppressed they are and just vote for them and they will get handouts. What was it, 93% of blacks voted for Obama? And with every word, every bailout, the stock market slumps again. Do you realize that when he was elected, the stock market was in the mid-9 thousands, and today it is about 6600. Do you understand how precipitious a drop this is, and do you understand what Generational Theft is?
#186Does he and his party have anything going for them competency - wise except for pandering and socialism? And do you realize who Barney Franks, Franklin Raines, Gregory Meeks, James Johnson, Maxine "California Freeloading" Waters are, Acorn, the Community Reinvestment Act that forced banks to make these toxic loans to people who could not pay and this because they had made the taxpayer liable? Truely voodoo economics. And do you understand that Obama is heavily invested in Acorn?
But saddest of all is that the intellectually - indolent American People, if the talking heads are to be believed, voted for Obama because of the economic crash. Truely pitiful when a people are just too ignorant to know who the culprits are, this like Little Red Riding Hood seeking shelter from the Big Bad Wolf.
Watch this, and understand that folks getting handouts just love what Maxine Waters and her ilk say and run out and vote for this: See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs Now consider what Obama says in his talks, he blames it all on Bush, he needs to understand that this sham will soon wear off. And of course he will not acknowledge that Bush was given 9/11 due to Clinton's ignoring al Qaeda for 8 years. I have heard the stuff about the Clinton administration warning the incoming Bush in defense, but to understand this you need to read "Willfull Blindness, a Memoir of the Jihad," by Andrew McCarthy, the lead prosecutor of the Blind Shiek and the other 1993 attackers of the WTC. Then you will understand that as he says, 9/11 was enabled and ordained by Clinton, and then you will also understand how stupid and dangerously inept Obama's GITMO policy is. You must seek the truth, it will not come to you.
#187And the pork in these stimulus bills, more buying votes. Watch the bailout Tsar trying to defend a $3 million handout to the CEO of a failed company in a bailout at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP73cK3GXdo These bills give millions to Ted Kennedy, the UAW, Acorn, just handouts, stealing from your children and their children, and buying votes. Think investors don't know this, look at them run from the stock market.
I am sure Democrats will deny all of this, and I hope they are right. When an election this important goes so badly wrong, all that is left is to hope one is wrong. "You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.."
~~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931-2005
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816 "Any election is an advance auction of stolen property." -- H. L. Mencken
"Kids in school are not learning? Not a problem, just promote them on to the next grade anyway. Call it 'compassion,' so as to not hurt their 'self - esteem.' Can't meet college admission standards after they graduate from high school? Denounce those standards as arbitrary barriers to favor the privileged, and demand that exceptions be made. Can't do math or science after they are in college? Denounce those courses for their rigidity and insensitivity, and create softer courses that the students can pass to get their degrees." -- Thomas Sowell, Postponing Reality
#188Der Alleswisser...
Rush is a skilled speaker who gets paid big bucks to feed a shrinking percentage of the total population what they want to hear to make them feel better about themselves, and his producers aren't about to get in the way of that by holding him accountable to present the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. His is absolutely corruptible, and Obama and leaders of the Republican Party make a big mistake in paying him any attention at all....but it's an easy mistake to understand because I make it everytime I visit this page and waste valuable time debating with people here who are as willing to listen to what I have to say as the wall behind my monitor.
#189"My reading of the Quran has convinced me that the basis of Islam is not violence but is unadulterated Peace. It regards forbearance as superior to vengeance. The very word "Islam" means peace, which is nonviolence. My experience of India tells me that the Hindus and the Muslims know how to live at peace among themselves. I decline to believe that the people have said good-bye to their senses, so as to make it impossible to live at peace with each other, as they have done for generations. The enmity cannot last forever."....Gandhi.
So George Bush and Gandhi apparently would have agreed that Islam as a religion of peace. Any thoughts on that? Any response from anyone here who supported the invasion of Iraq and efforts to build a democracy there but also feel Islam is morally corrupt at it's foundation and therefore incapable of sustaining anything of true value? Does anyone here feel our dependance oil is an umbilical cord that should be cut by all means necessary?
I swear...you people...you kill me. You really kill me. You're so wrapped up in proving that Islam is evil, that democrats are bumbling idiots, and that Obama is the Anti-Christ that you give little or no consideration to solutions to real problems. You live in a world of color, but can think only in black and white.
I may be a Democrat, but I know that America needs Republicans. I think most people are near the middle, and when government stays near the middle, we keep a healthy balance. You may not agree, but after reading his books and listening to him speak, I honestly think he feels the same way. Unfortunately, he comes into office facing the unprecedented challenge of two wars, a roaring economic recession, a health system that is sick (no matter what you feel the cure is), drug wars on the border with Mexico to go along with the immigration problem, and if you believe in Global Warming, then add that to the stack (even if you don't, weening ourselves off foreign oil should be a common goal....if you could drive an electric car without any Saudi oil in it, wouldn't you be wearing a smile?) Rush may want Obama's policy's to fail....but we as a nation can't afford it.
The last thing we need to be doing now is demonizing people we don't agree with. What this world needs right now is solutions. So what's yours?
I'll be gone for a few days. If I'm smart, then I'll let what I've written here be the end of it, and you guys can take it or leave it.
But then, I'm not that smart, am I? Just ask Joseph...he'll tell you.
Your favorite Islamosocialistic Rushaphobic tree hugging taoist liberal and proud descendant of several dead Confederate soldiers....signing off.
#190Number one Obama says no special interest and ear marks and theres over 9000 in the Bail out . Rush never said he didn't want Obama to fail like all the Liberals are saying he said. They incorrectly repeating Rush to take everyones eyes off the pork of porks spending bill. Rush said that if Obama's bill was to the ruin of America then he wanted his bill to fail. He wants Obama to win if it's to the betterment of the USA. Clinton had the same CIA info as Bush and Clinton sent many Cruise missiles into Irack because he didn't want Irack to have wepons of mass destruction. After 9/11 Bush new it was better to fight the terrorists overseas than on our soil. I knew it would be a long war going into it to start with but better over there than over here. I don't like the war and most of us feel the same way but what could else could he do. Talking was no way to deal with the Islamic Faciast who would just as soon lie , decapacitate you and your wife and children and then blow themselves up. Ain't no way the Quaran is written with peace in mind when it says that if the infedels don't follow THe Quaran , kill them. They want the whole world to believe the way they do or your dead. Ask your wives if they want to live under the Sharia law and explain how free they will be under its law. Islam is a decieveing , murderous religion. Are there good people in it, yes there are many good people in Islam but they have stinking thinking. Open you eyes and mind and think for your selves and not the polititions .
#191Before we get too carried away on how peaceful Ghandi said Islam was, best read http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 and the other parts of the fourteen centuries of vanquishing by slaughter, rape, and looting of vast lands, Persia, Africa, including Egypt, that were once Christian. No other people have persistenly behaved this way. And take a good look at those horrible things Islamic women are forced to wear so as to hide their feminity. And their oppression, and the genital mutilation, and the honor killings, peaceful???
What Bush said after 9/11 was a political expedient and a quest for a Moral Imperative against a "Select Few Fanatics." And Ghandi was no fool, I suspect the same thing here. But is that what Islam is? What about the Muhammod Teddy Bear, the Danish Cartoons, but where is the outrage when innocents are beheaded or folks fly airplanes into buildings. Worse than silence there was a "General feeling of Delight" (See "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West.") I think it would be met with delight from the rest of the world if there was in fact any palpable evidence that this religion was coexistant. In contrast, the Quran is loaded with verses that say it is dangerous, especially the last and thus most germane and profound, Sura 9, the chapter of war.
#192Rush simply does not want socialism, getting the government involved in anything leads to failure and stiffiling of creativity, the true wellspring of prosperity in America. The government does not have to pay any attention to Profit and Debt, it simply taxes more if it spends too much. And it is the biggest slave to political correctness and set asides for minorities, and not Production but Proceduralists. Hampered by pages and pages of regulation, whole buildings in DC could disappear and there would be not only no degradation, but progress. Choking inteptitude, you do not want this. Obama does, Rush does not.
How many billions have been thrown by the Democrats to the auto companies ( a payback by Obama for a 400 million dollar campaign contribution, bailing out the UAW and its benefits, and GMAC finance so folks can buy those cars) and now it seems that they will bankrupt anyway. Ever heard of throwing good money after bad?
And this stimulus, giving money to Acorn, the same champions of arm twisting regulation to force banks to give toxic loans to folks who cannot pay, the very core of the rot that has this in this financial mess. And millions to a bank in Barney Frank's state (United One?) in the bailout, condoms, Nancy Pelosi's distirct getting millions to study some Bay Salt Marsh Mouse?? Studying cow flatulance? I mean, out of 300 million people we cannot find any better people to elect than Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? Not only corrupt but idiots. Nancy Pelosi was asked if the Democrats had anything to do with the FreddieFannie financial bomb, and one word, "No."
#193She like Obama totally ignoring those horrible corrupt Democrats like Franklin Raines, Barney Franks, Gregory Meeks, Maxine Waters, Chuck Schumer, .... and the gall to blame it on Bush and ignore these corrupt fools. And Obama names three tax cheats to his cabinet, what do you think the press would have said if Bush had done that? And they say nothing, it is ok with them? Nancy should sell if her IQ ever reaches 50, and the American People are pitiful for voting for this.
Now Jamie, just because I do not say so does not mean I disagree with everything you say. You talk of peaceful elements of Islam and I do support those folks. I see some of them here, and when not subject to the Islamic mainstreams of the Middle East, at least some seem to progress socially and become rational people. But there is CAIR and MAB (Muslim American Brotherhood) and this is evil, terrorist sponsors, not here for anything good and should be locked up. Ditto for traitors like Louis Farrakan (google what he said to Khadaffi). We should reach out to the rational civilized elements of Islam, but should not be so gullible, as many Democrats (all, most??) are, and destroy the fanatics. Hunter - Killer squads throughout the Islamic world, hopefully with their support. Ignoring evil is not the answer, seeking solutions, as you said, is. And part of this is admitting to the evil elements of Islam, and not letting it thrive in the shadow of Political Correctness. Identify, seek out, and destroy the evil elements of Islam, and free their masses, especially their women, to pursue their lives and enjoy the fruits of their skills and creativity.
“Joy! Joy, bright spark of divinity, daughter of Elysium, fire – inspired we tread thy sanctuary. Thy magic power re-unites all that custom has divided, All men become brothers beneath the sway of thy gentle wings.” -- Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony Number 9 in D Minor, Opus 125, “Choral,” 1824, Symphonic Rendering of Fredrich Schiller's An die Freude (Ode to Joy)
#194Der Alleswisser...Your insinuation is that George Bush and Gandhi made their comments out of purely political reasons, and that sounds like something you say to yourself to expain an uncomfortable contradiction. I believe they meant what they said...so we'll just agree to disagree.
The link to Daniel Pipes is about history, not Gandhi's opinions. Tell you what...why don't you add up all the dead linked to Islamic nations verses all the dead linked to Christian nations and let me know who the winner is when you're done.
16 Nobel Prize winners came from Japan, while China and India(each with far larger populations) together have only produced 12. None of these nations are dominantly Islamic or Christian, so explore the factors that might cause this discrepancy. Might these same factors be at work in the discrepancy between winners of the Prize in Christian nations verses Muslim nations? All things considered, I believe economic prosperity creates a breeding ground for intellectual thought. If political stablility can be achieved, thus allowing new educational and economic opportunities to grow, I see no reason to think that individuals would continue to embrace terrorism on such a widespread scale. Now, if you want to argue that prosperous Islamic nations would pose a greater threat to America, then go ahead. Maybe it all leads to nuclear war and the end of the world no matter what we do. Personally, I feel that argument is speculative. My argument is about winning the war on terror, and that attacking Islam as a religion is a hindrance to that cause.
Out of curiousity, have you ever read Obama's "Audacity of Hope"? If so, I hope you'll at least give consideration to his sincerity. Democrats and Republicans need to learn how to have constructive arguments, and not accusatory shouting matches. Do you really think this nation would benefit from one party rule? I don't....I think the struggle between the two parties can create a healthy balance (which is usually somewhere in the middle).
Mickey...I need to open my eyes and mind? Saddam Hussein might qualify as an Islamofacsist, but that's not who attacked us on 9/11. Osama Bin Ladin is a radical fundamentalist Muslim who embraces violent Jihad. Some argue here that he already represents the opinions of mainstream Muslims. I disagree with that notion, but I fear it might become a reality. If we don't improve our diplomatic efforts and learn how to market our values and principles in the Islamic world, Bin Ladin's version of Islam may one day be the only one left.
Keep in mind that and every errant missile or bullet that accidentally wipes out innocent people wins Al Qaeda new recruits. You say..."Bush knew it was better to fight the terrorists overseas than on our soil"...if that were true, then he should have stuck to his guns in Afghanistan. And don't mention Clinton to me, as I've already said his policies in that region of the world were lame...ineffective and without direction.
And Mickey.."Ask your wives if they want to live under the Sharia law and explain how free they will be under its law". Is this a typo or are you trying to insult somebody? How many Muslims do you know, and on average, how many wives do they have? Polygamy might be found in Islam even more than it is in Mormonism, but I still don't think it's very common.
#195All you guys out there are missing the point,there are good & bad people in every country & every religion, I have met many muslims who are decent,hardworking & honest, but like a lot of people, some get brainwashed along the way, Others are MUSLIMS when it suits them, & to them ISLAM is not so much a religion but a convenience, here in England,mostly due to Political Correctness,& the bleeding heart brigade in certain towns & cities, you cannot say or do anything that might upset MUSLIMS, Yet you get no complaints from any other races or religious groups. Sikhs,Hindus, Jews,Buddhist &all the rest, they have mingled in with the communities, despite all the abuse they suffered over the last 50odd yrs,[verbal, physical & racial]. the recent abuse directed against british troops by ISLAMISTS? was appalling, I wonder how these cretins would be treated in there homelands if they protested in the same way. If conscription was reintroduced here, there would not be enough boats or planes to take this lot home, but then again they would miss the excellent benefit system of this land.
#196You repeted just what I said and I believe every word. Clinton went into Iraqe with the same information as Bush but Clinton didn't want to raise a stink so he sent a couple of missles and killed a babies milk factory. There has been a lot of mestake made by the D and R's and here is the way I see it. The Republicans platform is morality, chariter and honisty. Look at the D's when they apoint a thief or taxs evador, $thousands in the freezer Etc.. Oh, just a slip up etc. The D's have no ethics so when they do wrong it realy doesn't matter. They pat each other on the back for getting away with another scam and the Americans are just to stupid to get it. Most of the Obama voters didn't know what his full name was. They couldnt tell you who was vise president or secretary general.If you think I'm worng read the news paper head lines the last 12 months or so and it will make for an unbelieveable comic but where fact is funnier than fiction. I rest, Mickey
#197
#198What you have here is civilizational exhaustion by Europe and now the US. We have fought each other and now are just plain tired, and so this century is more about demographics and will, the former dictates that the deep socialism of Europe and now this comes to America, is simply not sustainable, because as Americans (Obama and the Democrats) steal from their and our grandchildren, there are no sufficent numbers of grandchildren in Europe to sustain this. The ballooning population is Islamic, and as soon as their numbers are sufficient they will take over. They have the will and the numbers, we have political correctness and elect stupid corrupt people to office. Yes, tax cheats, thousands in refridgerators, proxy murdurers by letting terrorists go, horrible people and if I ever had my way the jails would be full of these people, Barney Franks, Eric Holder, all of you Democrats who are corrupt and blame others.
And is Europe just too tired to fight back? Take a look at Spain's response to the March 2003 train attacks, how they elected the Islamic candidate because of it. And take a look at how in Brussels, General Patton and the Ameicans liberated Bastogne and the rest of Belgium and so now Brussels is free not to be able to observe a moment of silence for the victims on 9/11 as they MIGHT OFFEND MUSLIMS (sound familiar, see our good man Boyd, the British interlocutor above.
The replacement rate for Greeks is 1.3 offspring per couple, for Italians about 1.2, Spain about 1.1 and Russia is the sick man of Europe, even lower. You need 2.1 to just stay even, and America is at about 2.2. And Jamie, Muslims are allowed to have four wives, and so they have about 12 offspring per couple, so you do the math. Read Mark Steyn and "America Alone."
#199This means aging populations and increasingly Islamic demographics. By 2050 Yemen, land of dust and fanatics, will have more people than vast Russia. Just what do you think this portends for Europe? And is this good for America or anyone else? America, without who Europe would now be part of the Axis, divided up between Germany and Japan. And America and the Marshall Plan to rebuild them, and America who brought down the Berlin Wall, but do the Europeans even realize this? They do not even seem to realize that we "Won the Cold War," I do not think they even wanted to, they saw the Communists as the Good Guys and they miss them?? Are they useful allies? With the exception of Britain, the answer is no. Sadly, no.
And our good man Joe Boyd above, I simply do not understand how a proud nation with a glorious past like yours has let all these Islamics come with no restrictions and an apparent ignorance of what Islam is and that it is inherently incompatible with a Western Democracy. And how your Bobbies stand by and let these evil people insult you and have their way? What ever happened to law and order, the common good. Why do you let these people come? Prosperity brings goodness??? Jamie, do you not realize that the latest British terrorists were Islamics who had the good life, they were Doctors, among the world's best - paid people? It is more than prosperity, it it the religion, this an extremely evil religion that needs to be banned or at the very least tightly regulated and supervised, forced to cast away the evil verses and practices. It must be understood that Fundamental Islam means Fundamentally-Evil Islam. The religion is fundamentally - evil, it supresses all creativity, all charity towards one's fellow man, that is unless he is a Believer, it even supresses music. So how can Islamics, without totally abandoning their religion be prosperous economically, and as opined above, then find enlightenment? And looking at those terrorist doctors, would it even matter, and is it even possible for an Islamic entity to be prosperous, without oil. Have they ever, and is not the only prosperity they hav ever had except oil that looted from those they murdured and vanquished, taken their homes, their lands? (The Smyrna Principle, it should be called.)
#200And have we not reached out to them to try to bring them out of the darkness, have we not thrown them hundreds of billions of dollars and spent countless hours and summits and accords here there and everywhere for the last fifty years? And what do we have to show for it? And so Britian, Europe, and here, we let them come and build mosques and assume all is well in those mosques, even with palpable evidence that this is where evil flourishes? We think they are just like everyone else? We think they can find a way to distinguish Right from Wrong, Good from Evil, when they collectively, as any nation, or group of nations, have never been able to do so? When the most adored Islamic person, as Jamie admitted, right now is Osama bin Laden?
Just remember, Islam is not what you think it should be, it is what it IS, and that is as defined by the Quran, and it is forbidden by the punishment of death to interpret it, and so it cannot have a historical progression as Christianity has. And the Fatal Flaw of Islam: No Muslim can criticize another Muslim, and so you get this Wall of Silence on Islamic atrocities, this rewritting of the history books to portray Muslims the victims of the Crusades, Palestine, Smyrna, Fill - in - the - Blank.
This is not a Should Be World, this is an Is World, and Islam as a religion IS evil. The question becomes, can Muslims be freed from their religion, and how can we help. Or will we see Darkness Fall in Europe, and then the planet? The realization of the Umma that Akmadamishitjad, Osama, Shiek Abdul Raman, the other Sentinals of Satan speak of.
#201Mickey...the Republican view verses the Democratic view is not about morality, character, or honesty. Members of each party have violated these principles and betrayed the trust put in them by the American people. But there are many more from each party who have done their best in service of their country, and they deserve our respect. The differences between the parties have to do with policy approaches. Disagree with those all you want, but to question people's integrity simply because of their party affiliation is disrespectful and, in my opinion, irresponsible. As for tax evasion, you have every right to raise that issue and I share your frustration. That does not give you the right to label everyone in the party as guilty by association. And as for Obama's last name...who gives a *^%! what it is?
Der Alleswisser....Were the people responsible for the terrorist attack in Oklahoma City Muslims? How many of the children who have turned weapons on their fellow students read the Koran first? It is easy to find examples of people who use religion to justify their actions, no matter how dark and violent those actions are. I wonder if you give equal consideration to finding those Muslims who rebuke violence. I can agree that they are not as numerous as they should be, but they do exist. There are Muslim Nobel Peace Prize winners...again, maybe fewer than there should be, but as I have offered up before, there are other social/political/economic factors at work on the larger picture. You give those positive elements no room to grow when you label the whole religion as evil.
As for Christians, most of us in Western nations have a good life, and our families have good lives...there's simply no incentive to blowing yourself up when life is good. When things were bad though, Christianity was often used as fuel for the fire...labeling your enemy as blasphemours or godless pagans makes killing them easier to justify. The history is there...and as far as my reponse to the notion that the Koran encourages the killing and/or subjugation of non-believers, please refer to my responses to Vik Rubenfeld for my thoughts on that. In a nutshell...I choose to defend Muslims who reject the violent interpretation of Jihad that is embraced by Al Qaeda, and I accept them as allies in the war against terror. To reject the entire religion is to declare war on the entire religion, which I do not see as practical or in following with our nation's principles. To abandon those principles might seem necessary to some as in the interest of our own defense....I see it as a gateway to our own destruction. Disagree with me if you like...but if nothing else, at least try to accept that it doesn't make me a bad person (as Mickey claims all Democrats are). Attack my ideas...not my intelligence or intergrity.
Joe Boyd...Not being in Great Britain, I am certainly not as well associated with events there as you are. I believe political correctness sometimes goes too far. If there are Muslims in England attacking your way of life, you have every right to be pissed about it. However, I would suggest that there are Muslims in your country who agree with you, so take care not to lump them all into one category. It's similar with Mexicans here...there's a lot of resentment against Mexicans coming here to America and make no attempt to learn English. But that doesn't mean they're all like that. I often see the younger kids tagging along with their parents and translating for them. Perhaps the younger generation of Muslims will be more English when they grow up than you think. I mean, so often it's only the bad stuff we see in the news. Stand your ground...but give recognition to Muslims who truly love England.
I would remind everyone here that any defense offered here on my part of Islam is not an endorsement of the religion. I see the world in shades of gray, and there are too many here who want to see it in black and white. To see the world as good vs. evil becomes a dangerous notion...it's a simplistic way of thinking that makes opens the door to a dark path. Who is more dangerous than a person blinded by their own rightousness?
#202
#203Comparing Islamics to Mexicans??? There is nothing evil about Mexicans, they come here to work, who can be against anyone wanting good work that Americans are too entitled and lazy to work to do the jobs they do. The problem is not the Mexicans, it is the pandering demagogue ad hominem Democrats who buy their votes by stealing from the American Taxpayer to give them food stamps and health care upon arrival into the country, not having paid anything into the system, it is these Democratic thieves who do this, this buying votes just like they have bought the black vote for like fifty years, it is white liberal democrats that have brought the demise of America, the socialism, the people who pay their mortgages, the people who buy what they can afford, it is those people who under the Democrats not only pay their obligations but also now increasingly pay for those who voted Democrat when they heard the word "Handout", now responsible people who do the right thing and meet their obligations will have to pay for those who have not done the required reading, who do not stay in school, who indulge in all sorts of deviant life styles, those who the Democrats pander to. It is true that the rising tide lifts all boats equally, and that the creativity of the entrenpreneur is the wellspring of prosperity in America, but it is also true that stealing from these people drags us all down, it also sinks all boats equally. In Sweden, Bjorn Borg and Abba left because of the taxes. And make no mistake movie stars and baseball players and their ilk, as far as I am concerned, just cannot pay enought taxes to make me happy, but steal from the rank and file, as Obama will do, will just drag us down.
The Democrats answer to everything is more government. I do not know if you are paying attention, but some very prominent Obama supporters are starting to speak out (Warren Buffet, ......) and this guy has done nothing but harm. Oh, but he tells the stupid liberals, "We inherited this from eight years of Bush." He does not acknowledge that he has already obligated thru 2010 3.2 trillion dollars of pork barrell useless generational theft spending in what will be his first 20 months in office, and that in 8 years and an inherited war from the Clinton Democrats Bush only had a 2.9 million debt, he tells the stupid Democrats this and does not even mention the toxic mortgages that the Democrats FORCED banks to make to minorities who could not pay so as to buy their votes. He is heavily involved in ACORN, and this is their primary agenda so he knows the truth very well but lies to the general public.
#204It is like you going into the hospital with an infected gland, and the doctors ignore the gland, but give you very expensive vitamins to "stimulate" you instead, and these vitamins are very expensive and so your grandchildren must pay for them. The infected gland will never get better on its own. And so Obama knows what Franklin Raines, Barney Franks, Maxine Waters, Bill Clinton, and the rest of the pandering Democrats did, and it all started with Carter, Clinton accelerated it, and Gregory Meeks, and the basic roll call of the Democrats, he will just pretend that is was Bush and think you are all so stupid, and why not, you ran out and voted for this corruption, and you seem to believe him and do not realize what the Democrats had to do with all of this. Just tell them Bush did it, nevermind he and the Republicans tried over and over to stop it, Barney Franks, Maxine "California Freeloading" Waters (who should spend the rest of her life in jail) and the rest did this, and he lies about it, and the American people are apparently too naive to see thru it. He knows that we Americans went out in droves and voted for the Next Roman Empire, that he can keep telling us it was GW Bush's fault, and since we apparently keep believing him and so he thinks "they must deserve it, they believe this, I will just keep telling them this."
We have heard for years the teachers telling us that the students coming to us just did not have the critical thinking skills that students in the past had. Just not as good. I remember that when I went thru elementary school that if you heard "So and so did not get promoted to the sixth grade," this was a stigma, the student was embarassed. Not any more, meet the Democrat Party, all losers and panderers, caters to victims, lovers of lawyers, the Clinton Democrats who gave us the stealing of hundreds of billions to give to stupid victim losers who could not read the side of a cigarette package that if you had any sense anyway would know the things would kill you without reading anything. But nothing is anyone's fault anymore, not if you vote Democrat, is it? Anyone with any sense would know that it is totally stupid to smoke those things, but the Democrats made them very wealthy victims indeed. Lots of votes I am sure. Maybe it is the case that we just cannot handle liberty, those folks who "Cannot Save." Maybe we are just too stupid for liberty, maybe Islam is for us, let Allah do all our thinking for us. After all, Americans do not seem to be very good thinkers as evidenced by November 2008.
#205I never said that all D s were bad but just look at what you have on the first shots fired by the Ds . Obama's picks couldn't or wouldn't pay there taxes even the Treasury pick, now thats sad. Look a Queen Palosi, her first picks were crooks and they were shots heard around the world with everyone listening. i bet other countrys were setting back laughing with bong in hand at us. Them Ds can't pick an honest person in there whole party. Now how does that look. Let an R fart wrong and the Ds want him to resighn there post. Can anyone say "Double Standard" . I'm not talking comic book text I'm talking national TV stuff. Clinton lied in Federal court and not a D said a word. And you said Mickey your wrong in your thinking , no, just look at the papers or tv. It's there if you want to read . I don't think all Ds are bad because I was one most of my life untill the platform of theres left me like, abortion, late term abortion, bad abortion just leave it to the side and let it die ( SADITIC) gay marriage (No it's not in the constitution) bigger government, ain't no way. Do some researsh on who wanted oversite of Fanie May and Freddie Mack and who shot the oversite bill down, Queen Barrny, 2006. If your looking you'll find it. I gotta go, too many dumb people voteing who couldn't find the voteing presinct if ACORN didn't pay them and drop them off. If you don't know what I'm saying, you shouldn't have been let out to vote either. Did I say that?, By the way. The reason the Muslim aren't bad here yet is that there is not enough here yet. But give the O a couple of years and watch. It's comming , he has already said so. Mickey
#206Der Alleswisser.... I see nothing but the evil ones in dvds like "Suicide Killers," "Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam," and "Islam: Radical Islam's War Against the West."
Hellloooo!!!! The reason you only see evil Muslims is because you're watching dvd's called "Suicide Killers". As for it not being ok to say anything bad about Muslims, I think I mentioned that political correctness goes too far sometimes. I seem to have offended your PC meter by mentioning the Mexicans. I have nothing against them personally...I just want them to speak English. I think a lot of Republicans would sympathize with me...you sound like a bleeding heart liberal to me. HA!
Since I'm a registered Democrat, I suppose I'm included on your list of "losers". Very productive. Thanks a lot for your input on that. My prediction is that some of Obama's initiatives will fail, and some will succeed. The question is, will he be willing to dump what doesn't work (as opposed to his predecessor).
Wow...not only do you want us to take down the entire religion of Islam, but we're supposed to do it without most of our European allies too. I imagine you're still bitter that they didn't back our misguided adventure into Iraq II. The funny thing is, they probably would have gone in too if Bush hadn't laid out the terms as "our way or the highway". I, for one, don't blame them for taking the latter option.
I went to England once. Walking down a sidewalk in London (near Parliament), I passed by several benches with various versions of a message that read "Kill Americans" painted on them. I also met a bloke in Felixstowe who's only experience with Americans had been those from a local military base. For whatever reason, some Europeans don't like a foreign nation having military bases in their country...even those of an ally. They wonder how we would feel if the British army were camped out in our backyards? Anyway...he said he ususally didn't like Americans, but that I seemed ok. Friendships are like plants...they need to be nurtured now and then, or they wither and die.
#207Mickey...I'm sorry...when you wrote "The D's have no ethics", I didn't see anything that indicated you weren't saying all democrats are bad. Tell you what...either believe what you write or don't write it.
Abortion...there was an e-mail floated around that claimed Obama voted against banning late term abortions. He voted against it because it didn't make exceptions for the health of the mother.
Gay marriage...Obama supports civil unions. I don't have a problem with that...it seems like a reasonable compromise. God doesn't have to recognize it...just whatever state you happen to live in.
Bigger government....if the Republicans had stayed true to the concept of smaller government, your mention of it here wouldn't seem like such a bad joke.
Partisan politics. Who isn't guilty of that? So far, Obama is the only one I see attempting to build any bridges. It is early yet, and he has a long way to go. But tell me how many democrats Bush asked to be in his cabinet?
The tax thing...Daschle got dumped, and rightly so. Having to forgive Geitner was bad enough, but the others that have popped up certainly demonstrate that Washington is a difficult town to find good help in. But let's keep in mind...the majority of picks were good, and demonstate a variety of opinions.
ACORN...yep, heard good and bad things about it. It does sound like there were some issues there...but not enough to effect the outcome of the election. All in all, there were a certain number of people who voted for or against Obama because of race...they pretty much canceled each other out. Obama certainly won by a much larger margin than Bush...and he did it by winning more than just blacks...and more than just Democrats for that matter. Don't forget those all important independents!
You wrote.."I gotta go, too many dumb people voteing". I might be dumb, but I'm smart enough to know how to spell voting.
#208
#209The Islamic thing, the Democrats, like Pelosi and Reid, just are too naive and mentally defective to understand their intentions and deceit, have not done the required reading, think "All religions are peaceful and tolerant, Islam is a religion, Islam is peaceful and tolerant." There is no basis for this, especially from the Quran, there is silence, and we hope they will come and free from their masses, will assimilate. Maybe in the US but no guarantee, but I fear that Europe is doomed, more and more socialism, big government, largess due to being protected by the American Nuclear Umbrella all these years, so they go big government, socialism, useless as allies, birth rates of 1.3 or lower per couple, meaning they get older and as such, do not have the will to resist Islam, do not make bold decisions, are overwhelmed by Islamics who have 12 offspring per couple, this looks fatal for Europe. Due to the largess of America they have lost the primal senses required to survive, they are just tired it seems and will soon be vanquished as a people, the Land of Dhimmitude, Eurabia, as Bat y'or wrote about. Not good for anyone. Hope I am wrong. But if there are any decent ones they are silent, so how can this end well? All they have to do is to just sit back and continue to grow much faster than everyone else.
And so the question in Europe will be, as Mark Steyn said, "Knock knock, who's there?" And soon that will not be the Europeans that you think of, it will be Islamics. Rotterdam is already 40% Islamic. Why do you think there was no support for Iraq from France? Not only heavily invested in selling them weapons and other stuff, I mean they have armed Israel's enemies with Exocets and Mirages for decades, these are immoral people the French. They deserve what is coming. But how could Chirac have any kind of support for action when his cities are 30% Islamic, no jobs, a great peril, riot at anything, and one day when they determine they cannot be stopped as their numbers will be sufficient, they will take over. And if you have not noticed, any little thing, the last was in Greece, it is ALL of them taking to the streets throughout Europe.
#210A real bloodbath coming I fear. What, five, ten years? But at least in the case of France and Spain, and maybe Belgium, their cowardice makes it hard to be sympathatic for them. survival of the fittest, and they have lost that, maybe because of America protecting them for so long. The downfall of the French, the Karma of their doom, has been their delusions of grandeur. They thought that their destiny was to be great, nevermind the collossal stupidity of the Maginot Line indicated otherwise. And so they viewed Muslims as their Demons, who would not do terrorism against them, the terrorist attacks would occur elsewhere, as they would introduce initiative after initiative against Israel and butt-kiss the Islamics in the EAD (European Arab Dialogue) for all those years. When American jets bombed Khadaffi from England in the 1980s, they had to fly about 1500 miles out of the way because of the Islamic - pandering (yes, the Democrats have become French, useless, immoral, selling their soul to the devil, the hell with the American taxpayer, let them pay for our toxic loans that bought us votes) would not let the jets overfly France. They thought the Islamic world would be the core of some grand European Hegemony that they would control. I think they have only begin to suspect what danger they are in, and how selling one's soul to the Devil can have grave consequences, maybe in only the last five or so years have they realized what their birthrates are as compared with the Islamic Plague. No longer blinded by delusions of grandeur, they may be starting to realize their fate and folly. They may regret their decision to blame it all on Bush, I think those bridges have been burned forever, their only hope is the stupidity of the Democrats.
#211Was Bush wrong to say "My way or the highway (in effect)?" I do not think so, but he did lose his way, due to pressure from the liberals who do not understand the danger. Certainly not Harry Reid who gave us that bogus assessment that Iran had abandonded its nuclear ambitions, something no one believes. It did take the military option from Bush, and so he and the Democrats are to blame for what is to come between Israel and Iran. Don't complain to the Israelis, Democrats. Sometimes there are hard choices (that an aging Europe is unlikely to make), and you forsook them. You temporized, yours a triumph of hope over experionce with regard to Islam. And for France, do not pity France.
Can't blame Truman, Ike, and all those who fashioned the Marshall Plan, the Berlin crisis, I would have thought this would have been a sound plan, but no one paid attention to the demographics of Islam and until 9/11 most did not realize how dangerous and evil this religion is. And the Democrats still do not understand, and I am not sure most Americans realize it, as evidenced by them voting for the like of Pelosi and Reid, and the corrupt masses that are the Democrats in DC. Maybe we deserve to perish too. They just don't get the Muhammod named Teddy Bear, the Danish cartoons, the threats to the Pope for saying anything, we just do not get it do we?
The barbarians destroyed Rome, and so maybe this is the natural order and we should just expect it.
#212Der Alleswisser... Your argument is that all of Islam is a threat to Western Civlization and that Democrats are naive nimcompoops. My argument is that your argument unnecessarily adds to our number of enemies and subtracts from our number of friends. I also find Republicans slightly more nimcompoopish than Democrats.
The End.
#213Hey everyone, take a look at the website "ISLAM4UK"& see the garbage & vile propoganda being put out by these R SOLES [english version of the word], would they get away with this STATESIDE,or in AUSTRALIA ?, I doubt it very much, but then again, we have got another bunch of R SOLES running the country into the ground. the only SURE votes they can rely on in a general & local election, are from the muslims, that is why they kowtow to them by giving them nearly everything, rights,benefits,housing,education,& now we hear, possibly SHARIA LAWS. But the brits stand for this. I would have liked to see the result of muslim protesters against US troops marching through their hometowns in the US, asses would have been kicked no doubt.I am not refering to all muslims,just the crazies who call themselves muslims.When Maggie Thatcher was in power during the IRA turmoil, she did one good thing by MUTING all their broadcasts, surely the same can be done again, & via the internet so we dont have to hear these cretins.
#214Big problem the Brits and other Europeans have is that the liberals took away their guns. And we all do understand that when guns are outlawed, the outlaws have guns. You can be sure the Islamics will have them, when this comes, and I am afraid it will come in Britian.
Jamie, I do support reaching out to the good elements of Islam, but are there any significant numbers of them? This is the critical question. We hear of decent Islamics in Iran that want a change, and if this can be done it is best for all, rescue them from their religion, if they want to be rescued in sufficient numbers.
#215Der alleswisser, the law abing populace here in the UK have no truck with guns, but dont be fooled,because are easy to obtain if you know the right people. Gun crime is rife here despite the protestations of the GOV,Most large cities & towns have hoodlums with guns,MANCHESTER is known as Gunchester,Nottingham,Birmingham,Greater & inner London & other large towns have this problem, with white, black, asian & east european gangs, thanks to the HUMAN RIGHTS brigade & the [R SOLES]ruining the country, when & if they are caught they get a derisary sentence, which means nothing to them because they know they will be out in a short time & their kin will be looked after while they are away.
#216Alleswisser.....
I dont think you will have to wait 5-10 years for the bloodbath. The Taliban are already gaining steadily in Pakistan. This weak state will probably be the first strand in their web of nation states that will comprise the coming Caliphate that will stretch from Northern Africa to Europe to Western China and Indonesia. Once the first couple go, the rest will fall in very quick succession. The Europeans will soon be drawn and quartered like an old piece of horse meat. The treatment that they will receive from the muslims will cause them to long for the days of WWII and the Nazis, as they understood such from their grandparents.
You are quite correct in one statement, however, America already stands virtually alone. Europe has no stomach and no will to fight anyone anymore. And no one else will help either....the South Americans - worthless....Chinese/Russians.....they will stand by and cheer as the West is pummeled.......
Also, as you indicated, most Europeans such as the French thought they could appease the muslims with their highbrow negotiating skills and their rebuke of the Americans. Muslims will chew that silly stuff up and spit it out like so much worthless cudd. It is total nonsense to negotiate ANYTHING with muslims other than immediate cash/blood at the point of a gun. Their word is useless.
The Pakis, muslims themselves, should have know this with their recent experience in the SWAT Valley and the world should wake up and smell the coffee too...will they? Hell no...not until millions have died. The Taliban are already on the move to Islamabad, breaking their promise that is barely 30 days old. Again I repeat...a muslim's word is useless.....it is as useless as a pile of camel s**t.
#217Useless indeed, but unfortunately Obama either does not get it, or worse, does get it, and so his agenda is to pander to the liberal Democrat Party aka Lawyer Party and dismantle this nation militarily and spiritually. Obama is apologizing to all our enemies and telling Israel not to defend itself. Is Israel supposed to think we will take care of them with these liberals in control? I hope they spit in his face and do what needs to be done.
The events you described about Pakistan are unfortunately not some conspiracy theory, but the Democrats just do not understand evil, do not understand the intransigent nature of Islam, do not see the silence of the Islamic world when evil is committed in the name of Allah. The stupid things are crying about throwing a catepillar on one of these beheadders. If you want to lose a war, lose your nation, become financially insolvent, have your schools ruined by indoctrinating the children with global warming hysteria and feel - good drivel in their history courses with nary a word about the Armenian genocide, and the horrible bloody history of Islam, just keep voting Democrat. The denuding of a nation.
Joe, you in Britian with those gun gangs, not the nicest sorts but at least not a bunch of panty waists like Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Patrick Leahy and all these other liberal surrender monkey Democrats that plague the people of America, the feckless American People that vote for appeasement and blowing kisses at evil and whining about waterboarding beheadders. Our Dhimmicrats who treat the war on terror as some sort of stupid lawyer war where we are so nice and so we lose to a bunch of barbarians. It was pathetic to read of Islamics jumping onto cars and screaming that Osama was great man in Britian on 9/11. I would have liked to see them blown away, this kind of evil must be destroyed. You do not appease evil, you do not apologize to it, you destroy it or you and yours are vanquished.
#218I have always wondered at this self destruction phenomena of Liberalism that plagues America and has already destroyed Europe, and I think Thomas Sowell explains it best in his book, "Ever Wonder Why?" On page 10, you have:
"Many crusades of the political left have been misunderstood by people who do not realize that these crusades are about establishing the identtity and the superiority of the crusaders.
"T.S. Elliot understood this more than half a centrury ago when he wrote: 'Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Ot they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves.'
"....This is not unique to our times or to environmentalists. Back during the 1930s, in theyears leading up to World War II, one of the fashionable self-indulgences of the left in Britain was to argue that the British should disarm (sound familiar,,,,Obama) 'as an example to others in order to serve the interests of peace'.
"When economist Roy Harrod asked one of his friends whether she thought that disarming Britian would cause Hitler to disarm, her reply was 'Roy, have you lost all your idealism?'
"In other words, it was not really about which policy would produce what results. It was about personal identification with lofty goals and kindred souls."
Islam is much more dangerous than Hitler was. Germany was a nation of perhaps 50 million, and Islam now is 1.6 billion of 6+ billion on the earth and is the fastest growing group of all. It is pure evil, it is non - compatible with a western democracy, it has a majority who just want to get on with their lives.
#219But like the German people, they have no say, they are very quiscient, and there is nothing in the Quran that allows them to say anything, this is punishible by death. Speak out about the evil that is committed in the name of Allah and you are an apostate. You can justify just about any kind of evil by involking verses of the Quran and saying to not dispute it or you get beheadded. Don't believe it? Allah was what the Blind Sheik involked when on trial in Egypt for the murder of Anwar Sadat. And it worked. The religion is the curse of mankind, it is Satan.
So here you have these Democrats letting terrorists go from GITMO, and as Sowell and Elliot said, they are not concerned about any harm that these people will do, the fact that over 50 have been found dead on the battlefield having returned to terrorism. No doubt they killed some of ours before being killed. But the Democrats do not care, it is all about them feeling good and thinking that they are the morally anointed.
So America, if you want evil to prevail, if you want another 9/11, if you like this September 10th administration, if you are one of those who cry about NSA and CIA wiretaps, you just keep feeling good about yourselves, but you are proxy murderers. When Darwin spoke of Survival of the Fittest, he was not talking about you. I hope you are confronted with this on Judgement Day.
"Islam will kill Europe in its sleep. -- Frank Roman, BOD, EAU
PROF BERTRAND RUSSELL (PHILOSOPHER)
“Over a billion people believe in Allah without truly knowing what Allah supposedly stands for or what he really demands of them. And the minority that do understand continue to be Moslems because they have redefined their morality and ethics to fit within the teachings of Islam, which are floridly lacking in morality. They therefore redefine what is good and evil in order to fit their lives into what is preached by Islam, instead of examining Islam to see if it fits within the good life. Backwards thinking, imposed by a backward religion”.
#220I noticed this newsline today in an on-line service from the Middle East:
Palestinian captured for axe-murder of an Israeli boy, and wounding a second, at Bat-Ayin near Hebron on April 2. He confessed to a religious urge to become a shahid by murdering Israeli youths.
It's always good to know that the religion of peace is still training its young men to be good axe murderers of young boys so that they can find their way to Allah and a special place in Paradise.
And then there was this little piece of Obanonsense.....
26 April: A joint Turkish-Syrian land exercise backed begins on their border Monday, April 27, and lasts three days. Military sources stress that it is the first joint military maneuver any NATO member, including Turkey, has ever carried out with Syria. Washington's approval underscores its new policy of boosting the strength of the Syrian army as partner in a strong a three-way military coalition with Turkey and Lebanon. It comes only four days after the Obama administration approved a large Turkish arms sale to the Lebanese army assigning Turkish military instructors to train Lebanese army units (half of whose personnel are Shiites sympathetic to Hizballah.)
The Obama administration's actions took place without informing Israel or taking into account its vital security interests. Israel's top security echelons are concerned and criticize the new Netanyahu government for taking too long to respond to the dire security setbacks piling up around its borders. They cannot wait until the prime minister meets Obama in the coming month. By then, he will be confronted with some unpalatable accomplished facts.
What the hell? I guess the U.S. is now actively working to defeat Israel.
#221Just as Obama is clueless on economics (well, the entire Democrat Party is, when you understand what Carter, Clinton, Acorn, Barney Frank, Franklin Raines, Chris Dodd, Bill Clinton, and now Obama who is heavily invested in Acorn), did.
Obama obviously does not understand what will happen if Israel is forced into a corner. He gives Israel no choice, they either strike preemptively and possibly nuclear, or they perish. There are some dire projections from CIA that do not have the Iranian and Syrian civilizations surviving a nuclear strike by Israel, and since the ascendancy of Akmadenishitjad this path has become more likely, and Obama is making it worse.
#222This could set the table for that. I know that the Caliphate is set to grow. The first of the old states is set to fall and it will probably be Pakistan, although it could be Afghanistan. We could be surprised and see something with longer odds (fall) like Saudi Arabia Yemen or even a North African state. For all practical purposes, Sudan is already there but there appears to be little al Qaida action from there at the present time.
The one thing that I am not sure about is how the Shiite/Sunni divide will function within the Caliphate....if it does.
If.....Israel totally destroys Iran in the strike that could be coming......there will be little need for the groups to interact.....the Shiites will be virtually destroyed with the dismantling of Iran and al Qaida will mop up the remaining remnants in due time as it becomes more powerful with the fall of more governments.
BTW, I believe that Iran is very vulnerable to an attack, especially if it is an all-out, no-holds-barred affair. But, they will make things VERY nasty in response. It would help immensely if the U.S. would help but it looks like little Israel cannot depend on Obama.....he apparently prefers the muslims in Syria and Turkey, etc. to their dismay so they will probably stand by and do nothing unless attacked. I think Israel will have to go nuclear to REALLY get the job done and forever end the scourge of Iran.....$64,000 QUESTION.....WILL THEY???
Bottom line.....I think the Sunnis that comprise al Qaida are destined to run this show.....I am just not sure how it will get to that point. Israel destroying Iran would certainly help clear the road.
#223Right before the inaugaration there was this thing on Fox News and the others, I suppose, I no longer watch the others, about how GW Bush did not allow the Israelis to have the Bunker Buster bombs that would have allowed them to take out the nuclear capabilities of Iran. GWB could have forced Israel to use nuclear weapons by this surprising act.
The most frightening and dismaying thing is just how clueless the Obama administration is regarding the threat of Islam. The Appeasement and Apolagist Obama Administration. The following from the prosecutor of the first WTC attack terrorists, Andrew McCarthy, just Friday:
What follows is Mr. McCarthy's response to Attorney General Holder's request. McCarthy was the lead prosecutor of the Blind Sheik and the other terrorists who conducted the first WTC attack in 1993. He is the author of Willful Blindness, A Memoir of the Jihad, which details how Clinton and his Democrats gave the full legal rights of an American citizen to these terrorists, and how, in his assertion, guaranteed 9/11. This is the same bunch of Democrats that are now in the Obama administration, and this administration is taking the same policy of treating terrorism as a legal matter. So this is "Change?" Actually, Obama is even worse, he wants to just let them go.
Bully for the Australian PM last week when pressured by Holder to take some GITMO detainees, who replied "If these people are no longer dangerous, why do you not just let them live in the US?" Unfortunately, the Obama people are so stupid that they indeed want to do just that. Stupidity must be in the water, with people voting for this. See the letter at http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/05/eric-holder-reb.html
#224
I thought GWB had given them the Daisy Cutter and the Bunker Buster and they were even making it stronger....??
I had heard about this McCarthy letter but had not read it. I think McCarthy made the right decision. No lawyer in his right mind should work with these Obama guys knowing that the administration might turn on them in the future and then they will be the scapegoats for the next show trial.
You know, the current Australian PM has been a real winner in many ways. Even though he is much more liberal that John Howard, he has really called a spade a spade on the islamic issues. I would have gone a little bit further and suggested that if the GITMO boys are harmless, let the Feds place them somewhere in downtown D.C. BTW, if they would have just sent a thousand or so other regular U.S. federal prisoners down there a few years ago and let them enjoy some sand and warm beaches... (but build a different cell block) and quit all the dumb ass filming...then this whole GITMO issue probably would have never arisen.
#225News Article ...
5 Muslim Teens Stone 2 Young Dutch Girls
In the city of Gouda, which is already known for the attacks of muslim youth on bus drivers, ambulance helpers, fire workers and police officers, now 2 Moroccans are arrested because of stoning Dutch girls. Monday afternoon, two girls riding on their bicycles were first verbally attacked and called "cancer-hos" and other insulting illnesses by islamic youth. They started bicycling faster to get away from that area, but the muslims followed them and caused them to stop. They then started throwing stoned at them, hitting the heads of the girls. They also took the bicycles from the girls and threw these on the girls.At least 5 muslim boys were involved, but only 2 young ones were arrested by the police in the age of 13 and 15. Comment: After the already going on violence of Muslims in The Netherlands, by assaulting ambulance workers and fire workers, putting cars on fire, is it now going to be a common "ritual" in the Dutch streets that Dutch girls are going to be publicly stoned?
Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. The Dutch should listen to the advice of their own Geert Wilder before it is too late and they lose their country to these wild animals. There is very little time left as it stands now.......
#226I think it was Edmund Burke who said "Evil prevails when good men do nothing." Like Geert Wilders said, the Koran should be banned, it is an evil book, an evil religion, and he was also correct in saying that half of it should be torn out for any Muslims allowed to remain in the Netherlands. And he was correct in saying that any decent Muslim was an Apostate according to the Koran, but can they admit that their religion is evil, can they reform it? Previous attempts have resulted in death, there is fear among Muslims due to the demonically evil ones in Islam.
Watch "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West," and hear this from some Muslims who have spoken out. One of them is Walid Phares, a former PLO terrorist, who had an epiphany, who finally emerged from the darkness into the light.
It is dismaying to think of what the American People elected when you look at the Australian PM and Geert Wilders, and then look at Style - over - substance Obama, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Eric Holder, John Murtha, Barney Franks, Chris Dodd, Frankin Raines, Maxine Waters, Gregory Meeks, Joe Biden as VP (!?????), ..... just pitiful what this once great nation has become, an indictment of the American People, is Barack Obama the canary in the mine? This seems the result of the Dumbing Down of America that has been going on since the 1960s, and so now this dumbed down electorate has voted for change, and not change for the better. I feel sorry for those and their families who have fought for this nation, all gave some, some gave all, and to realize that their contributions just were not enough, they fought the threat from without, not seeing the rot from within.
#227Someone once said, if or when a blackman becomes president of the US,pigs will fly, well,100days on "SWINE FLU".
"Give them hope OBAMA
give them hope OBAMA
give them hope OBAMA
Till recession gone"
#2285-5-09....MINGORA, Pakistan - Turbaned Taliban militants seized government buildings, laid mines and fought security forces Monday in the Swat Valley, as fear of a major operation led thousands to pack their belongings on their heads and backs, cram aboard buses and flee the northwestern region. The collapse of a 3-month-old truce with the Taliban means Pakistan will now have to fight to regain control of the Swat Valley, testing the ability of its stretched military and the resolve of civilian leaders who until recently were insisting the insurgents could be partners in peace. The government feared the refugee exodus could reach half a million people. The developments brought Islamabad's faltering campaign against militancy into sharp focus as President Asif Ali Zardari was preparing to hold talks with President Barack Obama in Washington on how best to counter an increasingly overlapping spectrum of extremist groups behind surging violence here and in neighboring Afghanistan. No kidding.....you actually thought you could sign a peace treaty with a bunch of wild animals....what an idiot. You must have sh*t for brains.
Complicating matters: Some of these groups have enjoyed support from Pakistan's intelligence services. No Sh*t!! Fearing that war could consume the region, thousands fled the main Swat Valley town of Mingora on Tuesday. Refugees clambered onto the roofs of buses after seats and floors filled up. Children and adults alike carried belongings on their heads and backs. I do not have any destination. I only have an aim — to escape from here," said Afzal Khan, 65, who was waiting for a bus with his wife and nine children. "It is like doomsday here. It is like hell." Well, duh! That's what Islam brings, my friend...hell on earth. You need to drop that mess like a bad habit...'cause it's worse, much worse. It only brings sadness, death and destruction wherever it is practiced.
In recent days, however, there have been signs of a turn in mood against the Taliban. Many commentators now say the movement's true nature was exposed by its refusal to go along with the peace deal despite the government's best efforts. You've got to be kidding me, man! The true nature of the Taliban only became known to some folks in hte last few days??? And what was their IQ? 65?
Pakistan agreed to a truce in the valley and surrounding districts in February after two years of fighting with militants who had beheaded political opponents and burned scores of girls schools in their campaign to implement a Islam modeled on their counterparts in Afghanistan.
"Everything will be OK once our rulers stop bowing before America," Muslim Khan, the Taliban spokesman, told AP by cell phone, adding that the peace deal had "been dead" since the operation in Buner. Yeah, yeah......we've heard that bullcrap before...do this and do that and we'll stop bombing innocent civilians, raping young girls, and committing unspeakable atrocities like the nice guys we really are.....Cut the crap Ahole....anyone that listens to you guys needs to have their head examined.....
#229Unfortunately this is correct. Yes, it is well known that the Pakistanis only give lip service to the government when it says it is fighting the Taliban. Their Intelligence Agency, ISI? Some are said to support the Taliban. There is a certain % of Islamics (15%? 20%?...) that subscribe to the demonic strand prescribed by the Quran, and so they support the radicals on the sly. It appears the evil aspect of Islam is prevailing in Pakistan. The commonality is Islam. Before being murdered, Benizir Bhutto warned of the Taliban marching into Islamabad.
There really does not appear to be any reason for optimism about Islam, it does seem probable that the Clash of Civilizations heralded by Samuel Huntington is more than just a catchy book title. Are there any great Islamic leaders who inspire their people towards morality rather than the demagoguery of the Quran? Look back thru history, has there ever been? This is disturbing and damning, the evidence is right in front of us, and so it is hard to ignore. History has a habit of repeating itself, so what does this say about Islam?
Benezir tried, but murdered. Maliki?? I would like to think so, but all I see is quiescence, tacit approval or maybe fear of this beast, a Creeping Evil, set to devour Europe.
Say Pakistan falls, then Europe, maybe an Islamic Republic of Turkey, in the image of Iran. And if Israel does not act.....What then?
#230The kindling has been lit.....the fires are starting to burn.....and the Europeans are content to argue about not how best not to "upset" their "native" muuslims...fools, fools, fools....
Don't get me wrong with the statements that follow. I love the Brits and they have always been our best allies. But when a good friend goes wrong, you must let him know. The Brits have even gone so far as to remove any mention of the holocaust from their school textbooks and classrooms...lest they disturb the sensitivities of some damnable muuslim student ears!!
My friends, during WWII, U.S. General Dwight D. Eisenhower, when told that some Army photographers did not want to take pictures of the ghastly site of the Nazi victims of the concentration campsites, issued a stern order that the camps and the victims would be photographed until the film canisters ran dry. Eisenhower stated that no future generation would be allowed to deny the holocaust and the atrocities that had occurred on these killing fields. Well, General Eisenhower is certainly rolling in his grave today at the COWARDLY behavior of the British government and the British people and their denial of that holocaust and those atrocities for which millions of brave British soldiers gave their lives.
Back to the present..........only the U.S., a country near bankruptcy, a country with a party of pacifists and socialists in control, continues to fight, virtually alone....at least for a short while. It is quite possible that al Qaida will go unchallenged at some time in this decades long war after they have defeated Israel (I am not 100% on this but it is looking grim with Obama and the Dems not giving much support)....at least until they reach Greece and Eastern Europe.
I read this morning that outside fighters are now pouring in to help the local al Qaida affiliates take what might be their first state, Somalia.....As noted above, my only question on this whole grand issue really is which nation would al Qaida rule first?
You know, with regard to the question of 10%, 15%, 20%...what percent of musllims support radical jihad? It really doesn't matter. When you have a dedicated army of that many people, armed to the teeth, willing to die........you WILL control the rest of the muslim world. There is nothing the so-called moderate muslims can do. It really would be no different here. Even in the U.S., if 15% of the population was heavily armed and ready to die, it would be very hard for our society to function and maintain its viability. Again, al Qaida WILL win their world. The only question is how far they will penetrate into the West after they establish their Caliphate.
But the bottom line for the West is that dark clouds are gathering on the horizon. The non-muslim world as a whole does not sense the immensity of the malignant cancer that is growing in its midst.
If only a great prophet were available to warn them......but then again...he would only be ridiculed by the liberals in charge of the media and the governments who insist that these guys are really not dangerous, we don't need a GITMO, turn them loose, they'll be nice...And....when in history did the world listen to a great prophet....even when doom and distruction was knocking at the door, when the night seemed young, the wine was flowing and the band rocked on?
#231It appears that we are in a dormant, appeasement swing as part of a cycle that had America alarmed after 9/11, but the Democrats, angry with the questioned election of 2000 and the loss in 2004, have swung wildly towards the left. The Obama administration has concluded that all of this was Bush's fault and that all we have to do is to be nice to our enemies and everything will work out. The only thing he has done right is to not suspend the drone missile attacks in Pakistan, and this no doubt at the urging of his military commanders. Wanting to release more photos of supposed "torture" photos, which to the beheadders must be totally laughable. Dick Cheyney is right, this is a September 10th administration, and the Democrats are putting millions of Americans at risk with their blindness and weakness. All the Democrats want to do is to buy votes with taxpayer money, as it is very easy to spend other people's money.
What follows may be someone making stuff up just to scare people, or it may not be. But it is plausible. What we have now is an asleep - at - the - switch Democrat administration that is following in the steps of former Democrats Carter and Clinton and their failed policies. More Camp David talks, Oslo accords, throwing money that we do not have towards buying the peace. So more temporizing by Iran and other Islamic states to gain nuclear weapons while playing a game with the witless Democrats. Trying to disarm Israel with another two-state solution, while the Israelis know that giving away territory has not and will not work. Will Israel understand Einstein when he said: "Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results." Report on Pakistan follows:
#232GRAB YOUR ARSE , RAGHEAD HAS BUTTON
India's Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has told President Obama that nuclear sites in Pakistan's restive frontier province are
"already partly" in the hands of Islamic extremists, an Israeli journal has said, amid considerable anxiety among US pundits here over
Washington's confidence in the security of the troubled nation's nuclear arsenal. Claims about the high-level exchange between New Delhi and Washington were made in the Debka, a journal said to have close ties with Israeli intelligence, under the headline "Singh warns Obama: Pakistan is lost." The brief story said the Indian prime minister had named Pakistani nuclear sites in the areas which were Taliban-Qaida strongholds and said the sites are already partly in the hands of "Muslim extremists."
#233US experts have been greatly perturbed in recent days about Washington's lackadaisical approach towards Pakistan's nuclear assets. "It is quite disturbing that the administration is allowing Pakistan to quantitatively and qualitatively step up production of fissile material without as much as a public reproach," Robert Windrem, a visiting scholar with the Center for Law and Security in New York University told ToI Thursday. Windrem, a former producer with NBC whose book "Critical Mass" referred to recent reports and satellite images showing Pakistan building two large new plutonium production reactors in Khushab, which experts say could lead to improvements in the quantity and quality of the country's nuclear arsenal. The reactors had nothing to do with power-production' they are weapons-specific, and are being built with resources who diversion is enabled by the billions of dollars the US is giving to Pakistan as aid, he said.
Windrem also pointed out that Khushab's former director, Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood met with Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman
al-Zawahiri, and offered a nuclear weapons tutorial around an Afghanistan campfire, as attested by the former CIA Director George Tenet in his memoir "At the Center of the Storm." Yet successive US administrations had adopted an attitude of benign neglect towards Pakistan's nuclear program and its expansion at a time the country was in growing ferment and under siege within from Islamic extremists. Scholars like Windrem fear Pakistan's nuclear program may already be infected with the virus of radicalism from within, as demonstrated by the Sultan Bashiruddin incident.
#234You people are like sheeps, beleiving in things which you know not. I cant began to post how many things Kristianity says about terrorism
Take for example:
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
More?
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)
Stop blabbing about other religions and START READING the truth!
#235Just as i have posted the above, i do not mean to disgrace any other religions...
Muslims believe in all Prophets sent by Allah, and so do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them.
Even in recent times, Muslims have and are facing genocidal campaigns in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnia, Kashmir, and Palestine -
but they have not questioned Judaism and Christianity. Such spirit needs to be reciprocated.
#236But what do you see Christians doing these days? Do you see any of this? You may have during the reign of Charlemange and the Holy Roman Empire, but that was over 1,000 years ago. Now take a look at September 11, 2001, look at what happened in Algeria in the 1990s, look at what is happening in the Sudan right now, look at Somalia right now, look at Pakistan and Afghanistan right now, read Smyrna 1922, The Destruction of a City, by Marjorie Houspian Dobkin, and how Muslims destroyed the city and its 200,000 citizens were murdered. This as part of the Armenian genocide in which Muslims murdered over a million Christians. And there is a lot more. Look at all the conflicts worldwide today, and nearly all of them involve Islamics as the aggressors. Trying to spread Islam, involking the Verse of the Sword.
Right now Obama is in Cairo giving a speech of reconcilation. Can he reach the estimated 80% of Islamics who just want to get on with their lives? Or will the Fanatical Minority continue to steer Islam? Can appeasement and apology work here? Historically it has not.
#237You will definately not hear about Chritianity commiting terrorist attacks, because most media are bias and focus on what they want people to hear.
find out if you can about 8 Christian Terrorists:
group of 8 people, who believe in the fundamentalist Christian belief that the Aryan race is the superior race, engaged in an act of violent terrorism against an innocent woman.
You must have closed your eyes in regards to Smyrna,
It was a muslim nation.
look what it says:
"Britain played an important role in this disaster. Lloyd George hated Muslims, and especially the Turks. In the course of the Paris conference, at the same time as he casually handed over Palestine (then 90% Arab) to the Zionist movement, he encouraged the ambitions of his friend Eleftherios Venizelos, the prime minister of Greece, to annex chunks of Anatolia. "
If you really heard Obama's speech, you missed the part about him saying There were no other nations in the world who accepted America, except for Morocco.
Historically, you need to get your facts straight, as there have been no evidences of destructions of Christians, in fact Musilm and Christians have lived side by side peacefully until the Zionist movement came to place.
Look at Bosnia, Chechnia, Afghanistan, Poland/Ukraine, all with the hands of either Serb Catholic, Russian Christians, and dont even get me started on Stalin Ukraine massacres. This is the story of an unknown holocaust.
"Add to this list of forgotten atrocities the murder in Eastern Europe from 1945–47 of at least 2 million ethnic Germans, mostly women and children, and the violent expulsion of 15 million more Germans, during which 2 million German girls and women were raped." http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis45.html
not only do some Christians kill muslims, but even their own brothers/sisters.
and, how cruel to make a video game in which someone massacres muslim. read this: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4730864.ece
Read this and you will see how much hatred Christians (not all) have against muslims; http://muslim-canada.org/tolerance.htm
You see, you only read the side that you feel comfortable with, but you need to see both sides and realize that there is a lot of information for which most people are lost in.
In the end, these words will just go from one ear to another for most people, but for those who are smart enough to understand, will realize that we are all brothers and sisters, no matter the religion...
#238You must realize that the atrocities by Hitler and Stalin, unlike Islam, had nothing to do with religion. There was no screaming of Jesus Akbar when flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up restaurants, school buildings, .... these were idealogues and had little if anything at all to do with religion. Atrocities committed by Islamics since the time of Muhammod have been carryied out by Muslims thinking they were obeying the commandments of God.
Palestine was originally Canaan, which became Israel. The first Muslims there were Babylonian invaders about 500 years BC. Since biblical times, these are the lands of the Jews, not Muslims. The term "Palestinian" refers to the Philistineans, who were not Islamic. Early in the Twentieth century, this was called "Jordan-Palestine," and in the second world war the British had a Palestinean unit which was composed of Jews. The Palestinean Symphony was composed of Jews. There are no "Palestinean People," these are people who, after in 1948 the UN gave 18% of this region to form Israel and the remainder was the original Palestinean State (nevermind the Muslims in these lands came there as invaders). If they had accepted this, there would now be a Palestinean State, even though they are not the real Palestinean People, the Israelis are. Instead of accepting this generous division by the UN, the Muslims, denying the right of Israel to even exist, nevermind that 6 million of them had just perished in the Holocaust that was cited above, the Muslim World in that region attacked Israel, something less than a million Israelis being attacked by about 200 million Muslims. Unexplainably, the Islamics were routed. And again they attacked in 1967 & 1973 (note WHO attacked). And again, even though with overwhelming numbers, the Muslims were routed. And so we get all this gnashing of teeth and whining and wailing by Muslims because they lost lands when they were in fact the aggressor, and deserved to lose a lot more than they did for such aggression. The so-called "Palestinean People" were Muslims who did not leave despite being told to do so by the Muslim world, and so they became refugees. The decided to claim to be the "Palestinean People" for the first time in the early 1970s. Not since biblical times were they the supposed "Palestinean People," since the 1970s. They are the cowbirds of the Human Race, the birds which invade the nests of others, pushing their little ones out of their nests and letting the unsuspecting mother birds raise them. They have no legitimate claim to even be there, and should have accepted the 1948 UN resolution which gave them much more than they deserved. And they voted for Hammas, which is Iran and terrorism and is chartered to destroy Israel. And they claim to be the victims, when in fact they are the aggressors. what Obama is trying to do now with a Two State solution has been beat to death by Carter and Clinton, the Israelis went along, and got nothing by terrorism and war for their concessions to the Muslims.
#239And Smyrna, 1922, The Destruction of a City, did you read the book? Yes it was a predominantly Muslim nation, just as this is a predominantly white nation. Does this mean the whites here drive others from their homes to be murdered in the hillsides and buried in ditches they themselves were forced to dig while screaming Jesus Akbar??? Over a million people, their homes and possesions taken, their women raped, and then murdered as Ethnic Cleansing for Allah??? This is what happened, this was committed by people because of religion, this is not exceeded in inhumanity by any event in human history, there may be ties but this has never been exceeded. If you read it, you will be ashamed to be Islamic.
#240In #237 above we have: "Historically, you need to get your facts straight, as there have been no evidences of destructions of Christians, in fact Musilm and Christians have lived side by side peacefully until the Zionist movement came to place."
There are some big lies, and one of the biggest canards is this business above about how Christians and Islamics have lived side-by-side for centuries in peace. This Big Lie comes up in the following interview, and so Hirsi Ali, who is Islamic, will give you her perspective on just what the facts really are, at:
#241
You say Islamic? It is Muslims, meaning submission to the will of God, Islamic is a religion. If you truly strive for knowledge, you would not make these comments, unless you are purposely doing it for hate which i see already. Unlike you, i have no hatred for anyone, though I am not in this religion, i am curiously thinking about doving into it. Islam teaches Muslims and non Muslims to treat each other equall.
The book first of all you brought about, especially the author, does not have any body of facts, but rejects her own self.
All I read in the FACTUAL state is how Jews destroyed many Christians there. Never does it say anything about Muslim destroying their own city, you are confused brother.
One of my friends is from Izmir (Smyrna) and this is what he emailed me:
I was born and raised in Izmir (Smyrna). My mother's family was also exiled from the Greece during the WWI and settled down in Izmir. I saw the book while I was surfing in the net. I thought that I should read the every book written about my city. In my opinion the book is a routine sample of hatred against Turkish nation. Let's forget fact that the Turks are the only nation who are blamed of conducting massacres and atrocities (even genocide), while they were fighting for their independence and briefly review what happened during those times.
Perhaps the question to ask is that why same kind of events did not happen before? Why Turks had waited 500 years to burn the city? Izmir was in the borders of Ottoman territory for more than 500 years and none of these events described in Dobkin's book happened before. This cause-effect type relationship is not being explained in the book.
Thanks to power of Greek and Armenian diaspora on U.S. and French intelligentsia, we have been hearing the atrocities of Turks for so long. Author forgot to mention from ethnic cleansing of Balkans from Turks. Millions of Turks were deported during which people were massacred in the late 1800s and early 1900s in the Balkans. Same kind of massacres, atrocities were first happened in Balkans. At the end of the WWI, allied powers used Greeks to clean western Anatolia from Turks. They attempted to end the very existence of Turks. Local Greeks and Armenians were provided guns. Their cruelity was no match for the event told in Dobkin's book.
I could not find the honesty and self-criticism of Greeks and Armenians in the book. Almost every nation Turks, British, French, American and Italian are blamed except Greeks and Armenians.
You act as if Christianity is superior to all others, but that already has been taken by Judaism, They see all other non-Jews as dogs, so don’t even speak about downing one religion over another.
You state " The first Muslims there were Babylonian invaders about 500 years BC" My friend, Islam was never around then, the Quran was only sent down 1400 years ago. And as far as the Babylonians, they are all your ancestors.
#242
You state that Muslims chant Allahu Akbar? Do you even know what that means? Read it. If I can read the Bible (somewhat 49 books) then why can’t you read the Quran? It shows which one of us are ignorant and one sided. I can say soo many things about Christianity, but I keep my respect for all religions, because they all came from Prophets and are all books even in the Quran states not to dismay.
I want you to find 1 error in there, if you are truly intellectual, otherwise don’t post hate messages.
With this much hate and lies about a religion, I can see no reason but to convert to Islam, a way of life (not religion) and of peace…
#243Another account of what happened at Smyrna in 1922 can be found at http://www.ellopos.net/politics/turkey-blight/smyrna-destruction.asp from Turkey, the Blight of Asia from the European Prospect. As you can see, it quotes: "All statements that tend to throw doubt about the matter can be traced to interested and suspicious sources. The careful and impartial historian, William Stearns Davis, says in A Short History of the Near East (P393) 'The Turks drove straight onward to Syrmna which they took and then burned.' The European Prospect editor then states 'Men of this stamp do not make assertations without first having gone carefully into the evidence.'"
This is one of many links that come up that say the same thing when you Google it, try it yourself and you will see. Even Marjorie Dobkin said that there was a lot of revisionist history going on about Smyrna, as she set out the find the truth. She happened over it by accident, she writes about housekeeping stuff, she has no agenda, she just saw the coverup and became determined to find the truth. And the truth was horrible, not just the acts of Muslims (Islam is the religion, Muslims are the people, and as you pointed out, these are separate things), but the cowards, the American admiral Mark Bristol, and the French, Italians, and British. Horrible people who stood by and let this happen, only interested in the oil.
Islam is not the only group which indulges in revisionist history. But they are World Champions in this arena. I am sure you are familiar with al Taqiyya, the Quran's divinely - mandated practice of lying to the Unbeliever to promote Islam and conceal one's Isalmic beliefs when useful. Something this "Satanic," as the European Prospect called this, of course they are going to try to cover it up, to "put a lipstick on the pig." This was Ethnic Cleansing, pure and simple, all in the name of Allah. Where in the Middle East can you build any church but a mosque? Is it apostasy to convert from being a Catholic to a Moravian, a Baptist to an Episcopalian? Which religion forbids other churches, and punishes conversion by death??? A peaceful religion?
#244And Palestine, no, Muhammod did not come along until 610 AD when he started hearing voices on the mountainside, and so the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem was not until 638. The Babylonians who invaded 485 BC were not yet Muslims. These Arabs after 638 modified the Greek-Latin name "Palestinia" and called the land "Falistenia." The Israelis were given only 18% of TransJordan in 1948, the rest was for Muslims. But these Bedouins, who were just another Arab tribe, started calling themselves the "Palestinian People" around 1970, and they were no such thing. The Muslims have 700 times more land than the Israelis were given, and could easily assimilate them, but choose not to do so, and use their so-called plight to destabilize Israel. They know of the Liberal Mindset that blithly accepts any claim of being a victim and then taxes and throws other peoples' money at them. The American Democrat party is based on Liberalism and Victimology, pandering to all minorities and anyone who claims to be a victim. Another reason for the so-called "Palestinian People" not being allowed into other Muslim countries is that they are such bad apples. They tried to overthrow the government of Jordan in 1970, and it was their being driven into Lebanon in September that led to the terrorist group being called Black September, which murdered the Israeli atheletes in Munich in 1972. And you know what happened to Lebanon in the 1980s due to these wonderful "Palestinian People." Lebanon used to be a prosperous banking center, and Islam's terrorists destroyed it. It has to be the religion. Islam, in its current form, is not compatible with any other religion. Stop the revisionist history, take your religion back from the Fanatic Minority, eliminate the intransigent verses, stop the beheaddings and stonings, stop the oppression of women, and lead your people out of the Darkness. The current tack is to hope the Liberals stay in control or continue to believe your agenda, the Jimmy Carters, Bill Clintons, all the French, European leaders, and yes, for the moment, Barrack Obama, who take the side of anyone who claims to be a victim, and Islamics (by virtue of the religion, al Taqiyya) are history's best at claiming to be victims, these Liberals will continue to believe that Islamics are the victims of the Sudan, Somalia, Kosovo, Palestine, ... but not everyone is so pliant and gullible. Not everyone is so shallow as to believe that saying a bunch of false history about Islam and their supposedly great contributions to mankind and other nice things will just make all the unpleasantries go away.
#245Max, you focus on the conflicts between Muslims and Christians and blame the Christians for the conflicts.
So okay....let's assume you are right.........then please explain why Muslims do not get along with ANYONE ELSE/ANYWHERE.
Whenever Muslims interact with other religions of ANY type....they start fighting and killing. It is always the same story wheter you be in India, Israel, Thailand, Philippines, Africa, South America........you name it...they just cannot be a peaceful people. It doesn't matter if you are Buddhist, Animist, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Atheist, .......You name it, they just can't get along with anyone. And they ALWAYS blame on the other group.
Yes, there are isolated dieagreements but nothing compares to repeated, widespread animosity of the muslims towards other persons and groups. No other group has this social problem except muslims.
If you truly are not a muslim as you state but are interested in becoming one, I would encourage you to consider any of the above more peaceful groups. Why on earth would you want to hook up with a group of warrior killers that get along with no one?
#246
#247
#248The state of the world today, as we all know, is down to mans GREED, and John Lennons "IMAGINE" says it all,but we all dream of a UTOPIA.
religions dont cause wars, men do, man has killed more of his own species than any other animal on this earth,man has only learnt one thing from all his years of conflicts, how to improve on killing,from clubs,slingshots,bow&arrows to WMD,yet he has learnt nothing.
innocent people suffer mostly,the only ones to prosper from war are the arms manufacturers, So where will it all end, TOTAL ANNIHILATION, ?
#249You just have to look at the numbers, they do not lie. At http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE50L08O20090122 you see that at the beginning of WWI, the population of Turkey was 20% Christian, but now there are 100,000 Christians of a 70 million total population. This is only fourteen hundreths of one % Christian, and you cannot call that due to just random fluctuations. It has to be persecution by Islam against Christians. Saudi Arabia, ran by the extreme Wahhabist sect, is all Islamic, mostly Sunni, and the only Christians there are foreign workers. There are no other churches and none can be built. Conversion from Islam is punishable by death (even Shias who would not convert to Sunni have been executed). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia
In Iran, there are reports of increased persecution of Christians at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=christians+in+iran+2009&aq=0&oq=christians+in+Iran&aqi=g1
In Indonesia, the Muslim population is 87% as reported at http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-duin010202.shtml Another site had Indonesia with over 94% Muslim, and many sites, including the above, report murder, forced conversions, and persecution of Christians. This increase in Muslim percentage seems to be explained by this reported persecution and violence.
These are not isolated reportings, Google it yourself. There just could not be so many independent sources all speaking of Islamic persecution of Christians througout the Muslim world if this was made - up or isolated as claimed.
The key is not to deny these things, the supposed majority of Muslims who do not suscribe to this must stop the denial and do something about it. Don't call it isolated or made - up, fix it. By remaining silent, or even worse, obfuscating these deeds, makes you complicit with your tacit approval. Hopefully that is not what it is, and that the majority of Muslims are decent people who just want to get on with their lives and do the right thing for the person who stands in front of him, regardless of religion, nationality, or gender.
#250der alleswisser,I see where your coming from, but these are MEN doing these deeds in the name of religion,as I said before,go back in history & look at all the EMPIRES, a lot of them ran for years, but they all failed in the end,The world is too big to be ruled by any one POWER,
the slaugher of one group of people by another has gone on for centuries, all in the name of religion, SUNNI against SHIA, CATHOLIC against PROTESTANT,[N/IRELAND] etc,etc.With the exceptions of HITLER,STALIN,AMIN, &RWANDA.& a lot of AFRICAN countries, too many to name, & atrocities committed in wars,need I go on.
It all comes down to man,s in humanity to man. I am 72,married with 3 g/kids, but I dread to think what kind of a world they may bring their kids into,I am not a religious person but, I do believe, there will be a day of reckoning,& I hope I wont be here for it.
#251
Max, you state:
>It’s not that Muslims fight and kills those of other religions, they just show >them the truth and in turn, they are fought and killed. And when you hear >that they attack others, it is because they were either attacked, or their >Mosques burned down.
These are the same old tired excuses that muslims have been repeating ad nauseum for the last 80 years. It's always a friendly muslim trying to show someone the "truth" and whenever they do, they are fought and killed. Funny this is ALWAYS the story no matter where in the world you look at the muslim atrocities such as bombing innocent children, stoning women, etc.
No, my friend, that tired, old canard will not work any longer. Usama bin Ladin and Ayman al Zawahiri put that to rest forever. They have shown the true underbelly of islam. As a result of their work, you guys will never again be able to tell your lies about how how islam is a "religion of peace" and its always some Jew or some Buddhist or some Christian or some Hindu that is killing the good Muslim. Nope, won't work anymore my friend. You have been outted by your hero Usama bin Laden and no perons of even minimal IQ will believe the nonsensical, absurd tripe about Muslim innocence that you utter above. It's over, Bud. Suck it up and admit it like a man. Usama is not ashamed of his violent acts.....why are you? Be proud of your warrior - killer nature.
#252Osama is not ashamed of his violent acts, just like Hitler right? They seem to be the same; Husain, Milosevic, Nero and even Mao Zedong, (please wiki him).
Anyone can be in a religious suit and claim this or that, degrading a religion. Does this mean everyone in the world is like that?
I see Hitler or an Athiest ruler who massacred many, and I guess I should assume that everyone in the world is a Hitler correct? I point at everyone right?
As joe pointed out, these people are not doing it in the name of religion, it is all for power and greed.
If you beleive a day of reckoning, you are religious and we will all be there for it, not one single atom will be left out. Each person will be judged accordingly to their own actions.
No matter what you beleive, we all come from one and we will all be as one. This world is a test for us, to see if we are just or unjust, to actually make choices, something that you never see in other creations such as animals.
We have this gift for a reason, so that on the day of reckoning if we are questioned by the one whom created us as to why we did this, we have no excuse. We chose to do good or bad without someone commanding us or puppeting us. Bottom line is that you can't judge one killer like Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh and say that Everyone who beleives in the same religion are terrorists. If it is what you beleive, it makes you a terrorist just like them.
#253Islam Apologists always bring up Hitler and Timothy McVeigh and this sort and claim that it balances what Islamics have done. And as pointed out above, they fail to realize that these were just power hungry people with an agenda, or an isolated fanatic like McVeigh. No big movement there, few if any followers, but they bring him up over and over as if it excuses Islam. This is a vastly disproportionate argument. It is time for the Islamic Intelligencia, and there must be some of 1.5 billion people, to assert themselves and to reform the religion. There are verses in the Quran which are simply not compatible with any other religion. "There is no god but Allah and Muhammod is his prophet" is a real bad start for coexisting with others. It is ok for anyone to worship as they please, but telling others that they must also worship Allah is absurd and evil.
The first thing that needs to be done is to look inward, not blaming others and denying the deeds like 9/11, Smyrna, ... it is time for Islam to admit these things and go forward as a better people. This is the time of the internet, and these false denials by Islamic Apologists just are ridiculous to any reasonable person. Fifty years ago, or even twenty years ago, you could not "Google" "Islamic Persecution of Christians" and get hundreds of hits all stating the same facts but a few threw in by Muslims in denial, in a vast sea of details of persecution of Christians throughout the Islamic world. Then google "Armenian genocide" or "Smyrna," or "Islamic Conquest of India," and you see all the facts of Islam's overwhelmingly violent agressive and brutal history, and unlike in 1989, 1969,..... the information is at your fingertips and it is overwhelming. Denial no longer makes sense, Smyrna did happen, so admit it, be introspective as to what happened, and reform, learn to do what is right, find out what is right, and go forward as a better people.
#254The answer is not to equivocate this with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh and those sorts. They were dealt with, which is not what has happened in the Muslim world. The perverted Catholic priests were dealt with. Pol Pot was dealt with. And on and on, but in Islam there is denial or there is saying Allah willed it. THere was no outrage in the Muslim world over 9/11, there was glee. Nothing is said when terrorists capture innocents and behead them in the name of Allah. There is no outrage when a child is told to go into a restaurant and blow himself up and everyone else in the name of Allah. Instead there is a celebration held for him being a martyr. This is very damning of Islam. Others see this and think of what a bunch of evil fanatics these people are. There is no outrage about Allah willing this, but there have to be Muslims who realize how ridiculous and evil this is, but there is a preponderence of silence. Then compare this to the Islamic reaction to Danish cartoons and the Muhammod Teddy bear. And then think of Salmon Rushdie. This silence is pernicious to the Muslim world, it creates a very negative opinion of Islam by others. Muslims must speak out, all 1.5 billion cannot be raving demonic humanoids without any cognitive skills, ones who have gone to the darkside.
It is time for Islam to look inwards and take control of their religion from the brainwashed fanatics and the idealogues who stoke the fires of religious fanaticism. Islam is overdue for a Ghandi, a Churchill, a Mother Theresa, a Golda Meir. It is time for the Islamic world to find a better role model than bin Laden, such evil should be condemed by the Islamic world, to not do so, and to even rever him says volumes of negative things about Muslims everywhere and their religion. Surely the Muslim World can do better than this, it is time for a decent person to inspire those who follow Islam.
#255Allah is just like saying God, they are the same, what it is saying is that there are no many gods, but only one supreme being, just like it says in the bible. Quran is an addition to the Bible, its not a seperate religion, im sure you have enough knowledge with your age. You tend to watch too much Fox news. Go to Canada and you will see that the news here in U.S. just complicates hatred for all.
For an 80 year old person, you are really twisted, hatred inside you has really brought you down, this is the reason why you dont have a religion, lost like a lifeless soul. Im sorry you feel the way you do. This will be my last post as it is like talking to a person that has had some sort of bad experience at home. Good luck to you and I hope you see the right way and not the way you have been seeking, which is hatred.
To you be your religion, to me be mine old timer.
#256You are so right, der alleswisser.....the age of information and the internet has spelled the end for Islam and so many other falsehoods. Any political system such as islam cannot control the information now, even in their base countries to a large degree. The education of the worldwide populace will bring their downfall just like the education of Russia brought the downfall of communism (a slow but continuing action that is not yet complete). And the barbaric, ugly terroristic actions of Usama bin Laden, the world leader of islam, and his comrades is helping in this educational process.
Will islam dissappear immediately? No, of course not. It will take time. And the West will suffer tremendously for the next 25-30 years as the dying dinosaur lashes out in his death throes. But make no mistake, their false ideas will perish and dissappear from the face of the earth. Truth will not be denied. Their system of beliefs is locked in the 7th Century. Their lifestyle is locked in the 7th Century. Their women are treated worse than dogs. And all of this shows the reality of why they cannot invent anything, they have no manufacturing, few good hospitals, few free schools, few universities and no freedom of speech and no freedom of religion. Islam breeds ignorance and retards a nation just like communism.
Political systems that are not free cannot progress and prosper......and their denial of freedom will be their downfall. These false religions and false ideas always lose in the end. Violence is not and never will be the way to God and light and life. The warrior prophet can no longer force his dark beliefs on an informed, enlightened populace.
#257from dr adam rosenblatt psychiatrist. i say unto all of you about all of the palaver, bashings and noises of the commentators above please read basic works by the great psychiatrist dr willhelm reich(he worked with freud in the 30's in prenazi germany) who wrote 3 masterpieces. listen little man. the mass psychology of fascism and a theory of orgasm. frankly a pox on all religious dogmas and creeds and original sin and ISLAMIC AND CHRISTIAN fundamentalism. BLIND RAGE, HATE VIOLENCE AND WOMENS OPPRESSION ALL STEM FROM THE ANTI-SEXUALITY OF THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC IMPERIAL EMPIRE OF THE EMPEROR CONSTANTINE AND THE DISTORTED PERVERSE SEXUAL NATURE OF MOHAMMET AND HIS DESCENDANTS WHO ADVOCATE A PARADISE WITH DOZENS OF PERMANENT ####### VIRGINS IN THE SKY TO THOSE WHO WILL EXTERMINATE ALL INFIDELS. adolph hitler and stalin were all brought up as children to love the lord jesus and christian anti-sexual dogma. the earlier religions of zarathustra, judaism buddhism and hinduism are certainly less bloodthirsty and violent. the works of willhelm reich were burnt by both the nazis and christians and no doubt willhelm reich would be killed as an apostate by most mullahs. its a long story even subtai zvi a sexual revolutionary jewish prophet who converted to islam was still murdered by the caliphs of his time hundreds of years ago.
#258June 16, 2009
A Christian man was stoned to death in Pakistan for drinking tea from a roadside stall designated for Muslims. Ishtiaq Masih had ordered tea at a stall in Machharkay village, Punjab, Pakistan, after his bus stopped to allow passengers to relieve themselves.
When Ishtiaq went to pay for his tea, the owner noticed that he was wearing a necklace with a cross and grabbed him, calling for his employees to bring anything available to beat him for violating a small sign posted on the stall warning non-Muslims to declare their religion before being served.
Ishtiaq had not noticed the warning sign before ordering his tea, as he ordered with a group of his fellow passengers.Witnesses claim the owner and 14 of his employees beat Ishtiaq with stones, iron rods and clubs, and stabbed him multiple times with kitchen knives as Ishtiaq pleaded for mercy.
After being beaten, other bus passengers took Ishtiaq to the Rural Health Center in the village where Ishtiaq died as a result of spinal, head, and chest injuries. The doctor who took Ishtiaq's case said that Ishtiaq had excessive internal and external bleeding, a fractured skull, and brain injuries.
This my friends is PURE EVIL. This man did nothing to deserve this horrible attack. If you are involved with this so-called religion, you must get out! It is evil and is the work of Satan! Jesus said, "By their fruits, you will know them!" Well, it is obvious to see, these fruits are evil and poisonous. Don't wait any longer! You know this in your heart. Get out now before you die in an accident or some other mishap and are lost forever in eternity. You must not die while you are a member of this false religion that is a product of Satan!! Seek you first the Kingdom of God....and Jesus!! Pray to Jesus this very minute to save you. Ask him to find you a Christian to tell you how to be saved and leave this horrible death trap called Islam that you are in. He will save you. Trust in Jesus and deny Mohammad and Allah.
#259Trust in Jesus...out of curiousity, was there any word on the faith of the other bus passengers that took Ishtiaq to the Health Center, or any clue as to the beliefs of his doctor? Would you suggest that evil is only manifested by people who claim to be Muslims, and never by those who think they are Christians?
If there is a special place in hell for people like me who have trouble believing that a perfect being created a world full of imperfect beings only to condemn billions of those souls to eternal damnation because they call the God of Abraham by a different name than you do, then so be it. I am not an atheist, but I have far greater respect for the individual who shows genuine kindness for his fellow man with no regard for eternal rewards than I do for the religous person who expects his charity will buy him a room in heaven.
#260No, there was no indication in the story as to the faith of the persons that took Ishtiaq to the hospital or the doctor. And no, I would not profess that some who claim to be Christians, but are not truly Christians, do some acts of evil. This is an occasional reality. Jesus said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
I don't know what you mean by hell. I did not say anything about hell. Upon death, if you have denied Jesus and the Father, you will become as if you never were. Your soul will be extinguished and your spirit will return to the Father. If you call that hell, then fine. Reseach the ancient Greek/Hebrew meanings of Sheol and Hades.
Jesus did say, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except by me." Ponder those words as you lie awake in your bed at night. Think about them each night and speak to Jesus that he would reveal himself to you. I promise you that if you sincerely question his reality and ask him if he is real, he will reveal himself to you. He is good, and he is real.
As far as showing kindness without regard for eternal rewards, I have no argument with you over that. Virtually all humans have a spirit given them by God. And if they will listen to this spirit with proper training and direction, it will lead them to conduct such acts of goodness and charity.
As far as the God of Abraham being the same as Allah, however, I would strongly disagree. That is analagous to saying any God of power is the same as the God of Abraham. Allah, the God of Mohammad, the God described by Mohammad, has attributes that the warrior prophet describes to us that are definitely not of the God of Abraham. If you believe that they are the same, once again, I suggest you compare the vast body of fruits between the bodies of the religious groups. Compare the work of the largely peaceful Jews to the Muslims. Compare the work of the larely peaceful Buddhists to the Muslims. Compare the work of the laregly peaceful Christians to the Muslims....go on and on....Wherever the muslims go...there goes murder and mayhem as soon as their numbers are sufficient. I cannot stress this enough, Jesus said, "By their fruits, ye shall know them."
#261Trust in Jesus....Hell or nothingness, it still makes no sense to me the purpose of a perfect being creating imperfect beings and then rejecting those souls that don't jump through the correct hoops to fall back into his good graces. I don't have issue with the concept of God...I have issue with the moral certitude people often display when expressing their perception of God's mind (be that person Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.). Personally, I feel the numbers and variety of people in heaven are far greater than a lot of people think. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we're both wrong to not believe in a place called Hell. Maybe we've sort of got it right but not all the way. What does it matter? Like the Tao Te Ching says, those who talk don't know, and those who know don't talk. Like every other fool, I have my own ideas about the universe and our place in it. But at the end of the day, I'm smart enough to know that some things will forever lie beyond my comprehension, and that to even seek such knowledge would lead me down the road to madness.
You can research the ancient Greek meanings of Sheol and Hades, but you can't trace the Muslim connection to Abraham? The ability of the human mind to believe it's own delusions never ceases to amaze me. When pitting one monotheistic religion against another, the contest is between the contrasting interpretations of God's will. Pit Jesus and Mohammed against each other if you like, but Allah and the Judeo-Christian God are the same dude.
Your claim of evil cloaking itself as Christianity as an "occasional reality" is a colossal understatement. But I've gone down that road before, and I know pointing out the dark side of Christianity only stirs up the sentiment that I'm defending the dark side of Islam. I make no claims for or against either religion as a whole. I have simply found in my own travels that there is good and bad in the world everywhere you go...no exceptions. If you consider my thoughts naive, then so be it. One day we'll all be dead and none of it will amount to a hill of beans (which makes me wonder why I'm wasting time writing on this website again...I guess my girlfriend is right... I just like to argue).
#262I tend to agree with your girlfriend...I want to respond to you but it is very difficult because I can see that IT will be very difficult...I wish I could do it in person but I know that is impossible. Actually, I think that we would have a great discussion over coffee or a glass of wine. Nevertheless, I will make a few points at the risk of aggravating you. I do not think I would convince you as I believe you might be settled in your thinking.
You start by expounding on what does anything matter? Nothing matters unless you value life and believe in life after death. If you are like Nietzche or Hitler and do not value life and do not believe in life after death, then yes, there is no reason to care about any of this and you are better off to stay stoned 24-7.....I mean why bother?
Yes, I know all about the Islamic connection to Abraham. But why mention it? But if you insist, I will educate on the issue (forgive me here, I don't intend to sound patronizing). The Bible does not look favorably upon the descendants of Ishmael that decide to stick with Islam. Now mind you, I say not the individuals, but those who stick with the organization. Genesis 16:12 sums it up with the following: "And he (the descendent of Ishmael in Islam) shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his brethren." Wow, you know, I'll be honest with you, the Bible doesn't always hit the nail perfectly on the head nor does any religious or prophetic book, but that is a bullseye if there ever was one. As has been stated above in several posts, everywhere muslims go, they fight with EVERYONE. Whether it be Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Animist, Jain, Hindu......it doesn't matter....they don't get along with anyone.
I totally disagree with your "colossal" statement. The focus on this forum is Islam. And I argue that those caught up in the organization need to get out if they want to be honest about truth, beauty and goodness. As stated before, none of the world's religions compares to Islam in terms of the violence, bombings and damage being done around the world. You simply cannot honestly argue that.
Lastly, Jesus was/is like no other person that ever before and ever again will be born on and walk this earth. He made the claim to be the Son of God. Now many wild-eyed freaks have made this claim and many more will...as long as our planet is inhabited. The big difference is that he did it with a sense of dignity and with a total level-headedness. He stated that he is the way, the truth and the life.....no man comes to the Father (the creator of the universe) except thru him. So, given the magnitude of who this dude is/was, the fact that when you woke up this morning and the date was based on WHEN HE was born, 1/3 of the world worships him as God, and so, so many other reasons too many to list, as a sentient citizen of this world you really need to decide, in the words of a famous author, whether he was a LUNATIC, A LIAR, OR......who he claimed to be...LORD. I challenge you to read his words only in the New Testatment (the red ones) and then when you lie awake in your bed at night....answer that question. If you can't, ask Him to help you....I promise you, he will.
Peace out.
#263Trust in Jesus...the focus of this forum isn't about Islam. It's about claiming Islam is evil and should be eradicated. I'm not really fond of Islam, so it would be easy to jump on that bandwagon. But people around the world have been using God to justify war for thousands of years, so I don't find rhetoric that focuses on the sins of Muslims while turning a blind eye to transgressions committed by Christians constructive. I'm a firm believer that Al Qaeda is a threat that must be eliminated. But if you wish to convince me that the war is against Islam, then we will simply have to agree to disagree. And in the end, that freedom to disagree is what unites us...God Bless America!
Your challenge for me to read the New Testament comes across as an insinuation that I have not already done so. Let me assure you that I have. I'm actually a big fan of the words written in red, but since I don't come away with the same conclusions, you seem to presume that I'm in some way broken, and in need of His help. There are over 6 billion people currently living on this planet, and I seriously doubt you will ever find two people who completely agree on everything. So when I ask, "what does it matter?"...I'm not saying nothing matters. I'm asking, do you really believe God would ever choose the side of one child over the other?
I leave you with these words from Tecumseh....
So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.
#264You are really trifling with words here! The forum is about Islam...the introductory quotes damn the religion from various viewpoints but do not specifically say eradicate it. Several commentators do. Why you have established this strawman to beat upon is strange and off topic.
You lash out at TIJ for offering muslims a better way.........then you have the chutzpah to hypocritically offer your own directions to a better way.
The only difference that I see is that your Way does not not have a name as does TIJ's......There is no difference between you and TIJ.
#265Socal Cool Breeze....you consider what I wrote "lashing out"? Geez...did I hurt your little feelings? Personally, I'm hoping TIJ is made of tougher stuff than that. If I were them, the only thing I would find insulting is being called a "strawman" by you.
If anyone here is interested in learning about Islam, then go to the source and visit a mosque. But if you're here to consider the threat level this religion poses to world peace, then you've come to the right place. My vote is that our enemy is found in terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, and not the entire religion. Do you think it's shocking to me that most people here disagree with my opinion? I'm not that naive. But you don't have to be a member to post here...so I'll express my opinion if I want to and you can deal with it however you like.
#266So Obama wants dialogue with the muslims, WHY,? I recall before RHODESIA got independance, IAN SMITH saying " how can you talk with people who run around in animal skins,& carry spears,clubs etc. They got independance, but look at the state of the country today.
The moderate muslim,s maybe,but the fanatics never, they would not entertain it, unless everything went their way
democracy & islam dont & wont mix, so what next.?
Here in the UK, it has been suggested that the wearing of the BURKHA should be abolished,[it is in a lot of european countries] also some muslim countries & is agreed by moderate muslims here, it is not written in the KORAN that women wear it, but leave it to the mosque leaders to get their own way. & the UK gov agreeing with them.
there is no such thing as civil liberty in islam.
#267Obama is another one of our American idiots that does not understand Islam....just like George W. Bush. Bush thought that he could bring them into the 21st Century by making them a sudden democracy, getting them to vote and then that would solve all their problems....at a cost of a trillion bucks. Obama also believes that nonsense but on top of it wants to "talk" with some of the more radical members of the group like little Adolf Achtungmadinejad, Hamas, etc. to see if he can persuade them with his oratorical skills to be good little boys. Something tells me the radicals will not be fainting at his rhetoric like some of the ladies did here in the U.S. last year when he spoke.
What they fail to understand is these people are still living in the 7th Century. You have to do what Sarkozy did this week and just say NO...you WILL NOT wear that burkha....and while you're at it go burn the damn thing! You don't negotiate....you tell them what to do.....period. The West needs to start getting hard with these people....quickly....there is no room or need to negotiate......there is nothing to negotiate.
You are right Joe that there is no such thing as civil liberty in Islam. The protestors in Iran do not even understand that they can never have what they want as long as they are muslims....TIJ is right that they must leave that religion...... From Africa to to Asia, virtually all islamic countries are dictatorships wherein a strongman maintains order...and this is a reflection of the religion itself wherein the adherent is placed in a slave-master relationship. The few exceptions to these dictatorships such as Pakistan are generally unstable basket case countries or, they are countries such as Turkey where the army is ready to mobilize quickly to quell any disent and there really is no such thing as a bill of rights.
And the really sad story here? This is what we will become as muslims increase demographically.....unless we stop them.
#268While writing the above post, the thought crossed my mind that muslims are like the Borg from the Star Trek TV series. The Borg were cybernetic humanoid drones that were constantly fighting the Federation and the Starship Enterprise. As Wikipedia notes......the Borg has become a kind of an expression of the English language for a juggernaut against which resistance is futile.
Well.....I won't say it is futile but we had better get our butt in gear. The following takes the Wiki writeup and blends their cause with that of the Borg and presents what a Borg-muslim hybrid might look like...for a little satire......just intersperse the words and you'll see the similarity...
The Borg were manifest as an interconnected collective, the decisions of which are made by a hive mind. The Borg inhabited a vast region of space in the Delta Quadrant of the galaxy, possessing millions of vessels and having conquered thousands of systems. They operated solely toward the fulfilling of one purpose: to "add the biological and technological distinctiveness of other species to their own" in pursuit of forced conversion to their collective. This was achieved through forced assimilation, a process which transformed individuals and technology into Borg, by force if necessary.
In alien encounters, they exhibited no desire for negotiation or reason, only to assimilate. Exhibiting a rapid adaptability to any situation or threat, with encounters characterized by matter of fact imperative 'resistance is futile', the Borg developed into one of the greatest threats Western civilization had ever known. Originally copied from other religions by one Mohammad, the belief system added more violent components to force conversions.
In Star Trek, attempts to resist the Borg became one of the central themes, with many examples of successful resistance to the collective, both from existing or former drones, and assimilation targets, with at least one species being shown as having superior capabilities to the Borg. It was also demonstrated that it was possible to survive assimilation (most notably Jean-Luc Picard), and that drones could escape the collective (most notably Seven of Nine), and become individuals, or exist collectively without forced assimilation of others. Some persons converted to the hive, such as Cat Stevens, however, were lost to the Borg forever.
#269Iran used to have a democracy. However, covert actions by US and British agents assisted in deposing Prime Minister Mohammed Mossaddeq in 1953. He had kicked the British out of Iran's oil industry, so the democratically elected Mossaddeq was replaced by the Shah, who was friendlier to western interest. As long as they serve our interest, a long line of American presidents have cooperated with Islamic dictators.
We were all about Afghanistan when they were fighting the Russians. But after the Russians left, we showed our true colors and turned our back on a war torn nation that was vulnerable to extremist influences. Then there's the time we encouraged Iraqi's to rise up against Saddam Hussein, but sat on our hands and watched as they got slaughtered.
The only people who can fix Iran are the Iranians. Any efforts to intervene would likely backfire in our face, and give credence to the ruling powers who cite America as a meddling influence.
Socal Cool Breeze...What exactly is "telling them what to do" going to accomplish? What would be your reaction if someone tried to manhandle you like that? And you call me the hypocrite. Again, I side with Tecumseh....Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. Now he was a warrior...you come just come across as a thug.
#270Watch Dick Morris's video on Obama surrendering in the War on Terror (which the liberals cannot even bring themselves to say anymore, so other silly weak wimpy thing they call it) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bRRapMSjCU
Now ask yourself the question, "Is he just selling his book by saying all of this, or is there factual basis for it?" Did we really funnel a billion dollars of taxpayer money thru the UN to Hammas as he says? Do US banks really have Sharia accounts overseen by Imams? Are there really all these Liberal lawyers appointed by Obama attacking the CIA and FBI efforts to fight terrorism? The GITMO thing and some other press releases about liberals protecting terrorists from wiretaps suggests this is at least in part true.
Was Obama's Cairo speech and his apologizing to the Muslim world just naivity, or is it something worse? We see Iran's crackdown on protesters, shooting a sixteen year old girl dead in the streets, and he says nothing? He gives Akmadinishad credibility by wanting to talk to them, and invites this regime for a fourth of July cookout as the protestors wanting freedom are put down?? He stands by and watches the Iranian people, who are young, well - educated, and connected by the Internet (that is the key, that could bring this evil down), fight for their liberty and says nothing? 35 million Iranian women who are oppressed and considered second class under Islamic law and want their freedom and he says nothing? Compare this to what Ronald Regan said to Lef Wallensa and the Polish people when they wanted their freedom.
Listening to the Mark Levin show right after Obama went to Cairo, and this young girl calls in from Virginia Beach. She states that her husband left for Iraq at three in the morning, and then breaks down crying because of Obama saying in Cairo that "Iraq was a war of choice." (The war that the Democrats wanted to lose, but will take credit for anything good that comes of it.)
America has long been the beacon for freedom and hope worldwide, and it is sad that we are no longer the people we once were. We truely do need Hope and Change now, and the 2010 election is our fork in the road. Is this a tempory abberation, or are we a different nation with different values than those who have gone before us.
#271The Stoning of Soraya M. will be released today at many theatres across the U.S. and around the world. Check out www.thestoning.com and othe websites.
Everyone should attend this if possible and they can get a taste of Iranian democracy where the stoning of women for many crimes is written in the judicial code. The movie has been rated 4 stars and won 2nd place at Cannes recently.
Just briefly, Soraya was a woman living in Iran in 1994. Her husband wanted to divorce her. He had no cause until he caught her feeding a man whose wife had died. He charged her with adultery and she was stoned to death.
Good old sharia (muslim) justice. You gotta love it. Barbarism at its best. Of course, this religion is no different than any other, as some on this list would argue, right?
#272So the UK GOV is holding an enquiry into why we went into IRAQ,Terrorism,WMD,? dont make me laugh, ask BUSH & BLAIR.
whatever the outcome,private or [ public] "joke", It will be a whitewash, we all know why, the big "O" OIL, plus lies & cost of human life on both sides.
why did they not go into DARFUR, ZIMBABWE, RWANDA, & other countries, obvious, no OIL,
Both BUSH & BLAIR are now out of office, they no longer care, as they are both too busy coining in the cash.I dont know the opinions of the US folk on BUSH, We got rid of one R-SOLE, but we now have an even bigger R-SOLE, who has done more damage to this country than HITLER ever did, but saying that they are all the same, in any country, THIEVES INC.
AFGHANISTAN,we crapped on them after the RUSSIANS left, history has told us that we cant win there, they beat the brits also & others, remember NAM, has the US learnt nothing.
#273
der alleswisser...regarding your note...
Was Obama's Cairo speech and his apologizing to the Muslim world just naivity, or is it something worse? I believe it he is quite naive. He is constantly apologizing for the U.S., a country that feeds the world, gives $15 billion in drugs to HIV victims in Africa, provided the Marshall plan to Europe, freed Iraq from Saddam, saved muslims in Albania, saved S. Koreans, saved millions in WWII from the Japanese and on and on and on.
We see Iran's crackdown on protesters, shooting a sixteen year old girl dead in the streets, and he says nothing? Yes, very strange. He did make a late remark....only when questioned. Even Bill Clinton would have remarked on this, I believe.
He gives Akmadinishad credibility by wanting to talk to them, and invites this regime for a fourth of July cookout as the protestors wanting freedom are put down. Again......very strange......Maybe he'll serve HEBREW NATIONAL HOT DOGS!! That would be the only saving grace. Couldn't you just picture little Adolf's eyes bugging out when told after eating a dog that it was a National? Now that would be a riot!!
#274Re Jamie's question....
>Socal Cool Breeze...What exactly is "telling them what to do" going to accomplish? What would be your reaction if someone tried to manhandle you like that?
First of all, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. If I go to someone else's country, I will obey and obide by their customs. That is good manners and common courtesy. No?
So, if they want to immigrate to France, then they should take the damn burkha off. That is what Sarkozy said and I think he is right on. Although I think they are getting even wiser and saying no more immigration. You muslims are just too weird for our Western culture.
A similar issue came up in Florida 2 years ago when some dumbass wanted to wear a full-blown burkha for her driver's license. Yeah right. I suppose you support that too.
#275Socal Cool Breeze...We are obliged to obey laws, not customs. That is the American way. If our law says you can't wear a burkha on your driver license picture, and it conflicts with their custom, then I say the law wins and they can either comply, leave, or pay the price. And no, if we're putting it to a vote, I say the Burkha comes off for the license pic. I think a bigger problem right now is that you don't have to read and write English to get a driver's license, but that's another topic. If France wants to make it illegal to wear a Burkha all the time, then that's their business. But I don't support an all out ban on it here just because it makes you uncomfortable.
Don't pretend you're "tell them what to do" attitude is limited to Muslims living in the West. You give them no consideration, picking and choosing to speak only of wicked Muslims, and never of those who make the world a better place. It's like claiming since the Nazis ruled Germany, all Germans in WWII were evil. There are also some Muslims currently portraying America with the same skewed vision, a point which Obama included in his speech but no one here gives any notice to. No matter the source, it is poison.
As for Der Alleswisser's mention of the girl who cried because her husband is a soldier in Iraq and Obama called the conflict there " a war of choice", I can only say the truth indeed hurts. Our soldiers and their families have given so much...they deserve better than they have gotten from their government. Families in Iraq have also suffered much. Knowing our enemy was in Afghanistan, do not tell me that the war on terror should have involved overthrowing a dictator who was thumbing his nose at us. And don't tell me it wasn't the fault of Bush alone. Many a republican and democrat in Congress sat on their hands and left the hard choices to the the President. I think he made the wrong choices, but I think he did what he thought was best.
"You muslims are just too weird for our Western culture". I suppose the Native Americans were too...which by your logic justifies the fact that we stole their lands and stuck them on reservations where no one else would want to live.
#276There you go again, creating another strawman. I said absolutely nothing about Indians. In fact I think they are wonderful people. You leftists just love to create a strawman when you can't debate the issue at hand and then beat it to death. The subject of this blog is not Indians which you keep bringing up......it is the violent muslims you so love.....please stick to it and quit digressing to Indians....
With regards to your statement to der Allewisser, we did a big favor to the Iraqis by removing Saddam. The majority of the Iraqi people don't appreciate it because they are muslims. Many of the children do. So what else is new? Are there "good" muslims? Yes there probably are...the truly ignorant ones living in rural areas that do not see the harm that is done by islam. Once you become educated and you understand the evil that this political organization is responsible for on a worldwide basis, however, and you chose not to leave the organization, you have chosen to support and be a part of the evil. It is kind of like chosing to be in or out of the mafia knowing about how they kill and maim people on a regular basis. As TIJ basically stated above.....you have sealed your eternal faith when you decide to stay.....of course you don't believe in any of that...'cause you don't believe in anything. They do and I do and most people do.
And your arguments on the Germans? I will tell you that when the populace went along with Hitler to ship the Jews to concentration camps, they joined in his evil enterprise. Period. If you think they were not a vital part of his evil by their limp wristed acquiesence, go make that BS argument to a concentration camp survivor...see if he or she buys it.
#277I have heard the argument from the Left many times that "Afghanistan is where the war is," and "America creates terrorists, going into Iraq just creates more terrorists." Unfortunately, I do not think the solution is that simple, and Liberals do too much blaming everything on America (well, Europe has always done that).
The problem is the Islamic religion. It is oppression, especially of women. It is not founded on reason, but of demagoguery. It is inertia since the seventh century. There is an emerging young muslim movement that wants to cast off this oppression; you just saw it in Iran. Because of the Internet, which Al Gore invented around 1995, the young are more connected than ever. They are tiring of being told absolutes, they want to be like the rest of the free world. They are tired of the Morality Police. Only 14 years so far of the internet, and I suspect this will become the Achilles Heel of Islam.
We have no policy addressing Islam as such, due to political correctness, we talk in platitudes and niceties, trying to not offend anyone, and pretending that Islam is just like all religions. This religion needs to be reformed, and we need to point that out, to confront Saudi Arabia about their not allowing other religions, to confront Iran about their actions in the name of Islam. Does it make any sense for Saudi Arabia to fund lavish mosques in America when all other religions are forbidden in Saudia Arabia?
Liberals have always championed Human Rights, but it was used to undermine the Shah of Iran, it did not address Islam, and Iran got something much worse than what they had under the Shah.
#278Socal Cool Breeze...You are not comprehending my point. You are putting out the message that Islam is evil, and giving examples to back it up. Fine. It is just as easy to show Christianity has a dark side, both in it's history and religious text. I don't believe either religion is to blame for the fact that some people commit evil in God's name. On a personal level, you choose to ignore my condemnations of Islamic terrorists, and claim I have some kind of love for them. That kind of rhetoric is what keeps this nation from having reasonable debates on issues. I've made it quite clear in the past that I have no fondness for Islam. You may see the religion as total evil, but the fact that others don't doesn't make them weak or Un-American. Call me a fool if you want...that may very well be true...but I am not a leftist just because I disagree with you. And to claim I don't believe in anything is a personal accusation that has no place in any civilized argument....though I can stoop to that level and start calling you a fascist pig if you like.
If you read closely, you will find I never claimed you had something against the Indians. I quote Tecumseh because I think his words are better than my own. And the story of how Christian Europe treated native populations as it colonized the world is extremely relevant to the problems we face today. I will not stop pointing that out. As for the reference to the Germans, your efforts to categorize and label people is exactly the kind of language that led to the Holocaust. You can judge the German people as limp wristed if you like, but it's easy to make that judgment from where you sit now. If Muslims in your town were being marched off to gas chambers, would you risk your life to save them? It's a hypothetical question...but I think a reasonable one.
Der Alleswisser....you have not addressed how the Shah came to power. Do you think Western actions in Iran in 1953 were excusable? Did they acheive a positive result? You have proven yourself to have a wealth of information about the dark side of Islam. But when it comes to the history of Christian nations, you seem to be willing to give them a free pass...blowing off atrocities as aberrations. Again...I'm not trying to say Christianity is bad. And I definitely can't deny the dark side of Islam. And yes, I agree that overall Islamic terrorists are the most dangerous threat that the world faces at this moment in history. But I have trouble saying that the violence comes from misguided religious text and not misguided individuals. People have long memories, and the past sins of Western Civlization are being dealt with now. If we interact with Islamic people in a condescending manner that promotes our culture as better than their's, then we are only going to create more problems for the next generation.
Tolerate others, but grovel to none. Fight terrorism, but treat Muslims with respect. Never torture...we should never betray our principles to protect them.
#279Actually, I see your point quite well, Jamie. You, like others on the far left, want to continue to argue that all religions are equally as bad as Islam. And to support the argument, you state that all religions have a few nuts that, as you say.... "commit evil in God's name". You espouse a theory of moral equivalence, no matter the religion. This is important because as stated at the top of this website, the West has its roots in a Judeo-Christian tradition and we tend to operate from that mindset. Reading some of your posts above, you, like most of the far left, blame America first. Unfortunately, you are of the breed that like to s**t in your own mess kit. You absolutely despise America's history of excellence and exceptionalism in all of these areas and you long for her defeat by tearing down roots and building up those of her terrorist enemies.
Well that moral equivalence argument is simply not going to fly with me...or 99% of the people living in the West with a brain that have been following current events for the past 20 years. I have a massive list of the bombings and killings muslims have committed in the past 20 years....it is horrible and you don't want to see it. Of course, it includes hospitals, women and children. Targets that ONLY muslims would attack and murder in their so-called worldwid "Jihad" to create their caliphate wherein someday you will bow and join or be beheaded by slow hacking with a rusty sword.
I will state this one more time and then I don't see any further need to go over it any more....I mean really, why argue with a block wall......EVERYWHERE MUSLIMS GO, THEY FIGHT, BOMB AND DESTROY. It doesn't matter if it is with Hindus in India, Sikhs in India, Jains in India, Catholics in the Philippines, Animists in Africa, Christians in Africa, Jews in Israel, Atheists in Western China, Buddhists in Thailand, Orthodox in Russia, or whatever. That is their Modus Operandi.
No other religious or non-religious group is like this......PERIOD. And the 10% that is radical now will grow to 20% and then 30% and more and more to encompass the world-wide caliphate. The so-called modertes will be forced to join the radicals...or die. Their will be no "moderate" muslims in a few short years as countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and on and on start to fall to the juggernaut Caliphate.
Wake up....smell the coffee.
#280Socal Cool Breeze...you overestimate the number of your allies. You'd be lucky to get the majority of Republicans to agree with you. No one is denying violence in the Muslim world has accelerated over the last 20 years. But you want to blame the religion and discount all the other social, economic, and political factors that have kindled that fire. There's not enough time in my day to lists every example of man's violence against man, regardless of religion. WWI and WWII were the two greatest slaughters in history, and muslims played only a minor, supporting cast role. If it weren't for our neverending thirst for oil, I doubt many Americans would even know a place called Iraq existed.
We live in a big complicated world...you need to leave your Lone Ranger good guys verses bad mentality in the comic books where they belong and start seeing reality for the inconvenient shade of grey that it is. I would say I love America more than you...because I love it enough to not sweep mistakes of the past under the rug. I care about our soldiers, because I make sure I'm educated enough about our enemy to know who it is and who it isn't. The most uncomfortable reality you need to face is that I'm not from the far left...I am a moderate democrat, borderline independent. I respect the contribution of true conservatives like Ronald Reagan, not babbling idiots who preach fire and brimstone against Muslims indiscriminately.
There will be no peace until there is peace in Israel and Palestine. Perhaps the road map to peace leads straight thru all out war. Let's just hope the right people realize that it doesn't have to.
#281Yes, for once we agree. It is an uncomfortable reality that you and many Americans are socialist Democrats. Yes...in fact it is a very uncomfortable feeling as I see our country slipping away. Coincidentally, I actually sat down with my guitar and started writing a song about this whole issue yesterday. Americans cherish freedom above all other values....and we are losing that and our other values to a big government determined to control more and more of our lives. As a result, I believe that my children will have to grow up in a different America. It will not be the America that I knew and unfortunately it will not have changed for the better. I thought we had learned that socialism and collectivism doesn't work but I guess not. And now that we are spiraling deeper into his plan for socialism and his unplanned(?) Depression, Barack's adventure into the realm of government control of the economy and our lives will be even more dangerous. But I digress big time....my apologies.
You state that there will be no peace until there is peace in Israel and "Palestine" as if that is a magic pill. I don't want to sound patronizing but I find this laughable. Please expound on this at length. First of all and most importantly......why do you believe this? Because some talking head on NPR said so? Do you think the muslims will keep their word? How will this peace come about? Who will agree to it? Who will enforce it? Why has it not been accomplished previously? Will the smartest woman in the world, Hillary, get it done (why hasn't she pulled it off already given her huge IQ)? Maybe Barack? Perhaps Haniyeh whilst he shoots a few Jews with his AK?
What do you think about peace in Israel and Palestine solving all the muslim problems der Al?
#282UNfortunately, the two state solution will not work for Israel. Hamas and Iran, not forgetting Hezbollah just across the border in Lebanon, all have stated missions to destroy Israel. Carter and Clinton have beat this horse to death, negotiating with the Islamics and throwing billions of taxpayer money at them. Trying to buy the peace. No peace, just more terrorism. It was not just Germany that acquiesced to the Holocaust, it was all of Europe except for one country (Denmark, I think, hid their Jews). This was evil in plain sight. Europe, especially France, has had an anti-Semitic policy in favor of Islamics.
There can be no peace in the Middle East until the sewer of evil, Iran, is addressed. It is like an infection that manifests itself as a sore on the surface, you drain it and clean it up, but it will come back over and over. Iran. We had an opportunity and still do. But we have the second term of Jimmy Carter now. North Korea knows it, and Iran knows it. We need the second term of Ronald Regan, not Carter. We need Iran to get the re-tooled version of "Tear down that wall, Mr. Gorbachev." But alas, only Liberal Democrats. When Darwin spoke of Survival of the Fittest, he was not talking about Liberals, and yes, there is reason for dismay, that is who is in charge of America and doing tremendous damage. The talk about no tax increases except for the top 5%, just a lie. Cap and Trade, taxing health care benefits (which he accused McCain of), not the first President who has lied during the campaign, but he needs to be held accountable. Blame the people who voted for this, and it was the majority, and so the Stupid Politicians that Donald Trump said we have, it is the fault of the American People.
Our political system of electing a president simply is not working, we are slipping away. Last night, Donald Trump talks of how Opec is draining our wealth with oil pricing and laughing at us for our "Stupid Politicans" who allow it. If businesses gang up like Opec to control pricing, they go to jail here, but we don't stand up to Opec, he said. Correct, check the Muslim donnations to the Clintons and you will start to understand. "What would you do if you were president, Mr. Trump," was the question. I had come to this conclusion earlier, but Fox has the notion that Donald Trump is qualified to be president (much more so than Obama, who has a very destructive, socialist, economic justice AKA slavery reparations agenda).
I did not hear out of The Donald's mouth about the party who has obstructed off - shore drilling and has not allowed a new refinery in this nation since 1983. And we now have fewer refineries than we did in 1983. This is because of the Democrats. The mantra that The Donald repeated over and over was "Opec is sucking the wealth out of this country, oil tankers are loaded with oil and it should be no more than $20 a barrel and it is $70 a barrel due to illegal-in-this-country pricing." This is because of the Democrats.
Obama is pursuing a socialist, "return the wealth of the nation to its rightful owners" agenda (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck ), an internal agenda, and has a weak inattentive foreign policy, taking for granted that America will always be dominant. If The Donald is correct, and I suspect he is, Opec is indeed draining the lifeblood out of this nation, and so the wealth that Obama is trying to take from the White Man and give to the "Oppressed," he thinks that is a fixed pie that will just be cut up differently. But in fact it is a global economy, and this pie will shrink. At least with regard to offshore drilling, no new refineries, and opposition to nuclear power, the Democrats are the Enemy of the People. And this lurch to socialism is pernicious, all the wrong values, not the ones that made America great. It all comes down to values, and the values of the Democrats are not the right ones. They will drag us all down.
#283Why limit the presidential bashing to the democrats?...Iran-Contra didn't happen under their watch. And who was president while Donald Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam Hussein?
Socal Cool Breeze...Prejudice is a disease that afflicts all nations. The violent reaction to the creation of Israel by neighboring Arab nations may not have been justified, but it should not have been unexpected. Der Alleswisser makes a good point about the failure of several European nations to react to Hitler's persecution of the Jews. I might go so far as to speculate that America would have willingly sat on it's hands and done nothing to stop the Holocaust if not drawn into the conflict by the attack at Pearl Harbor. I'm reminded of Lincoln's early efforts during the Civil War to characterize the conflict as a struggle for the preservation of our democratic experiment, and not as a fight for the freedom of an enslaved people. Roosevelt would never have attempted to fight a war based simply on the preservation of Judaism. My point is this...the actions of Arabs against Israel at it's creation were misguided and wrong, but not necessarily out of character for members of the human race.
Suppose outside forces decided to right a great wrong and strip away the state of Maryland and half of Washington DC and return it to various Native American tribes native to that area. Implausible, yes...but if it were done, would there not be great anger towards those "outside forces"? Would there be much concern from Americans about any condemnation of our aggression against the newly created Indian Nation? I suppose you may claim this is comparing apples to oranges...perhaps...but I think a valid point lies therein if you are willing to see it.
The journey from slavery to civil rights took America over 100 years. It was a long and winding road, but we have evolved into a nation that elected its president by the content of his character, and not the color of his skin. Why shouldn't I believe that there can be peace in the Holy Land, no matter how impossible that dream may seem?
Peace in Israel will not be a magic pill that cures all ills. But the fact is, sympathies of the Muslim world for the plight of the Palestinian people will not go away unless the "plight" goes away. Americans have acknowledged Israeli suffering, and rightly so. They are our friends and our allies and this should never change. But there are two sides to every story...and if we take the time to listen, maybe we can find some solutions.
The point is this...violence has not erupted at this time and place alone. Human beings have invented countless reasons to hate each other. To write off the violence we see today as sympotmatic of a corrupt religion is to ignore history, deny human nature, and serves only to fan the flames higher.
My thoughts are my own...they are not copyrighted or endorsed by NPR.
#284We have to rememeber that these are not the "Palestinian" people, they were invaders, while the Jews had been there thousands of years before. This was the Islamic invasion of 638 AD, shortly after the death of Muhammod. "Palestinean" comes from the Phillistineans, who were not Islamic. Much like how now the Islamics in Macedonia, Greek for thousands of years, now want to call themselves Macedonians, the Muslims only just before 1970 in that region started calling calling themsleves "Palestineans." And then they start talking as if they had been a displaced people for thousands of years.
It all comes down to the Islamic doctrine that any land that they have occupied can never be ceded again. The unfortunate fact for them is that the UN did give over 80% of that region to Muslims in 1948, what is now Jordan and called TransJordan at the time. Jews could not remain there, their property was stolen from them, they had to go to Israel. This generous offer was met by a Muslim war with overwhelming numbers in 1948, which somehow Israel won. Another attack in 1967, then an attack on Yom Kippur in 1973. Noting but war, nothing but terrorism, and nothing but claiming to be victims.
They paint it as if these lands had belonged them for thousands of years, when in fact it was the opposite. The religion demands this, not ceding previously Islamic lands, and playing the victims. It is all about spreading the religion. Their concept was to destroy Israel in 1948, as the religion forbids a non - Islamic entity in the Middle East, nevermind the Jews have been there for thousands of years. Israel has been attacked time after time, and the Muslim concept on Israel is totally intransigent. They claim to be victims and "Just give us OUR land back and all will be peace." This is simply chasing the end of the rainbow, and the Democrats of Carter and Clinton have chased it and chased it, as the Democrats are the party of the Victim, and no one plays the victim any better than the Islamic.
The charter of Hamas is to destroy Israel, and listen to the pleas of Victimhood all you wish from the so - called Palestineans, but they voted for Hamas. The mantra of Hezbollah in Lebanon is the same, and it all comes from Iran, which has the same mission. Carter and Clinton were played like a Stradivarius by by Arafat and the others, Arafat being nothing but a terrorist, who was given a Nobel Peace prize. Anyone who gets this prize thereafter is getting a bogus prize, this award being absurd. What did Carter and Clinton do? What all Democrats do, throw taxpayer money at the "Victims," as it is very easy to spend money that is not yours. Lots of hand-wringing for these "Victims," lots of pressure for Israel to give up land for so-called peace, which they did. And what happened? More terrorism.
It is the religion, there is no intention on the part of the Islamics to live in peace in a so - called "two - state" solution. This is "Al Taqiyya" (deliberate lying to promote Islam) and the "dar al Sulh" (The House between dar al Harb, the House of War, and dar al Islam; the Islamic practice to negotiate to temporize, to buy time until their numbers are overwhelming, at which time their adversary is annilated. This is what Muhammod did to the last Jewish tribe of Arabia, Bani Qurashi, and this is what the Islamics have tried to do to Israel since 1948.)
Obama thinks he can just say things and they will be so. This is not the way of Islam, it has been fighting to control the Earth for 14 centuries, it understands what "Struggle" (Jihad) means, and it understands that things take time and that as long as one persists, one succeeds. And they understand very well the power of playing the victim. Just ask the person on the street who is the victim of the Crusades. Then check the actual history (a synopsis of which is provided on this blog's home page). Then watch Obama and the Democrats chase the end of this rainbow, as the Democrat party is the party of the Victim, and will throw taxpayer money at any who claim to be victims, it is not their money. Liberals just want the moral high ground, they want to like themselves, and so they listen to the siren call of all who claim to be victims.
#285Preach it Brother der Al !!!
I knew when I threw up the word "Palestine" in quotes you'd catch the drift and run with it.
When compared to the Jews, Muslims have no historical right to any land in this area, never did, never can and never will. I just read more truth in your 6 paragraphs than I have read in the last 16 years of reading 6,000 newspapers, journals and magazines. If only the world knew the truth you just spoke in those 6 paragraphs! If only Obama, Hillary, the Senate and the House knew the truth of those 6 paragraphs!
Of course, many would still not act appropriately even if they knew the truth. We live in an age when truth is not respected, not recognized, not appreciated and certainly not lived. We live in the age of Obama....an age of lies, deceit and guile.
But the challenge still stands for the defender of the world's muslims the one that claims most of them are just moderate good guys (you tried to sneak out of this) and I repeat....why do you believe peace in Israel and "Palestine", if such were possible, would it pacify all muslims elsewhere? Because some talking head on NPR or MSNBC (there, I broadened it) said so? Do you think the muslims like Achmadinejad and his Council of 100+ (some of whom suggested hanging the demonstrators...of course they are just moderate leaders, you know, not the radicals hiding in caves in Pakistan) will keep their word? How will this peace come about? Who will agree to it? Who will enforce it? Why has it not been accomplished previously? Will the smartest woman in the world, Hillary, get it done (why hasn't she pulled it off already given her huge IQ)? Maybe Barack? Perhaps Haniyeh whilst he shoots a few Jews with his AK? I really think it is HIGH time the "moderate" muslim defenders start explaining all this peace B.S. 'cause I'm gettin' mighty cynical these days about muslims and peace...and I even think some Pakis are and I even think some Afghans are...and I even used to be on your side, Jamie....why back in '69 even I had a peace patch sewed on the butt of my bell bottoms and supported the SDS.....now that must be the change ole Baaraaack was talking about!!
#286Socal Cool Breeze...What we have here is a failure to communicate. I am not on anybody's "side". Everything I read from you guys puts Muslims and Palestinians in a bad light. It's easy to do. It's also easy for Muslims to make the Jewish side look like the bad guys. It's called finger pointing, and it accomplishes nothing. The best way to resolve the conflict is to find common ground and build on it. If each side can come to see a peaceful solution as being in their best interest, maybe they can work themselves out of this mess. Sure...you can mock my position if you want. If I couldn't take the heat, I wouldn't be in the kitchen.
The demographic distribution of the world's populations have always been and always will be in a state of constant flux. Anglo Saxons dominate the population of England, but that doesn't mean they were there first or have been there the longest. My ancestors were chased out of the Palatinate region of Germany by religous wars in the 17th and 18th centuries. As for Israel, are you saying that the Jews represented the majority of the population in the Holy Land when the First Aliyah began in 1881? If not, was the land empty? If not, who was living there, and how long had they been there?
You know, I think I've already made these points...but instead of addressing issues I bring up, I get cracks about Obama. I still have no opinion from anyone about American and British involvement in the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran in 1953. Is it so impossible to empathize with Muslim anger over Europeans creating a Jewish state on their back door that hadn't been in existance for over a thousand years? Please note, the word empathize does not mean you sympathize with their position, it only means you understand it.
It is amazing the backlash that comes from suggesting that when the mask of language, religion, and culture is stripped away, human nature is pretty much the same wherever you go in the world. But that too is part of human nature...you just can't please everyone. I can't think of one great leader who wasn't blasted by critics. Fact is, putting someone else down isn't usually the best way to lift yourself up.
#287The Americans and Europeans who came to Iran in 1953 were of course there to make a profit. This is capitalism, pure and simple. Greed has caused America and the Europeans to do immoral things, the most prominent being the acquiescence and consequent tacit approval of the slaughter in Smyrna in 1922, and the ethnic cleasing of non-Islamics in the Armenian Genocide in Turkey that occurred roughly 1915 - 1922. Even now you have Islamics denying that it occurred, and our pathetic stumble and fall into Political Correctness and mealy-mouthed media means you will see nothing about it on CBS, ABC, CNN, ... (Obama promised in his campaign that he would acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, but has reneged, probably in favor of his appeasement and apology to Islam, America is "not a Christian nation," and all of that. Obama is well on the way to unseating Carter as America's worst president, but that is a bit tangential, as was stated above, so I won't go any farther down this road.)
What we have to realize about Iran in 1953 is that this was not an occupation of destuction, rape, pillage, convert to Christianity or die or become a dhimmi slave, behead all the men and rape all the women for three nights, then take them as concubines, and all the property of those invaded become the property of Islamics because Allah said so. Know you well that this is how the Islamics who first came to "Persia" treated the Zorasterians and other non-Islamics. And this was not just Iran, it was the entire Middle East, North Africa, into Spain.
The key is found in Winston Churchill's quote well above that begins this discussion. The part about "All who follow Islam have slovenly agricultural and industrial ways..." (the words are not exact but that is the meaning). You see this everywhere even today in Islam; as a matter of fact, right now Iran has to export its oil to refine it, and they have an energy problem even though they have somewhere around the third largest oil reserves in the world. They benefited from what happened in 1953. Did the Americans and Europeans do some bad things? I am sure they did, but overall it was mutually - beneficial, not a slaugher, convert - or - else thing as it would have been if the Islamics were the newcomers.
It comes down to an internal thing between the enlightened hopefully emerging but very silent Muslim intelligensia. If you watch the movie "Islam Against Islamics" you will see some of them. The Convert or Die crowd must be put down (destroyed if necessary, there are some so evil that talk will not work). When the Europeans came to America they did not tell the Indians "You must become a Christian or be beheadded or become a dhimmi." Can you find bad things committed by the Europeans against the native Indians" Of course, but still we co-exist.
Those who have those "Coexist" bumper stickers that spell out the word including the moon and star do not realize that Islam is not like other religions, it is intrinsic to Islam NOT to coexist, starting with "There is no god but Allah and Muhammod is his prophet." These are goody - goody liberals who simply do not know what they are talking about. (So they vote for a shallow Obama who thinks he can sweet talk the Muslim world into making a right turn from their phalanx of fourteen centuries, very very naive, he is going to get rolled). Islam is what it is, it is not what you think it should be. It must be refromed, from within, or it must be destroyed. Or it will destroy the liberals, never mind how much they appease and how goddy goody they are.
The uprising in Iran is a positive thing (although Obama flubbed it), it shows a people, and especially women, who are tired of living in the seventh century and are tired of being told absolutes because Allah said so. Christianity used to have some oppressive practices "Because the Bible said so." Can Islam find a comparable Historical Progression as Christianity has found?
#288Der Alleswisser...Hollywood's portrayal of the Indian usually involves scalping civilians, attacking forts, and drinking too much liquor. And you know, all that stuff was true. But the injustices committed against the Indian tribes by the American government (including several Christians) rarely made it's way to the silver screen. That's what it's like when I read your blogs about Muslims.
Minority populations in every country in the world have been subjected to various degrees of mistreatment. You inflate Muslim violence and trivialize Christian transgressions. This is not me trying to say both religions are good or bad. It's just my opinion that you're holding the two religions to two different standards.
Christian minorities have survived in Muslim countries for centuries...and a substantial amount of that time involved peaceful coexistance. The Coptics in Egypt. The Maronites in Lebanon. There were Christians living peacefully in Iraq until we got there.
Iran as a nation did not benefit from the events of 1953. I'm sure there were some Iranians who benefited by cooperating with the British. The bottom line is that the British lived for centuries as a colonial power and were(still are?) dependent on the exploitation of natural resources found in other countries to maintain that dominance. Iran's democratically elected government said "no, we want to control our own destiny", and that conflicted with what the British wanted so they resorted to subterfuge. And I don't know but I suppose you don't have a problem with that because you don't like Muslims.
Sure there are people who deny the Armenian genocide. There are plenty of people who deny the Holocaust happened. Why exactly should that be making the headlines on CNN?
It's great that you educate people about the tragic events at Smyrna. But the actions of Europeans against the Jews were worse...so I'm having a tough time accepting that as proof that Muslims are more evil than Christians. Are we going to circle around over this forever? If I broke out the list of atrocities committed by Christians, you can just say they weren't really Christians. By that logic, Muslims can say that violent extremists aren't true Muslims.
You guys would never be good negogiators...because a good negotiator knows how to argue the side of his opponent. If you're capable of empathy, you're doing a good job of hiding it.
Anyway...I think we've about covered it again. No need to say that me and Obama are idiots...I got the picture. We've made our points and I don't want to beat dead horses.
Happy 4th of July...Allah bless America!
#289Jamie.....you state:
>As for Israel, are you saying that the Jews represented the majority of >the population in the Holy Land when the First Aliyah began in 1881? If >not, was the land empty? If not, who was living there, and how long had >they been there?
Hee-hee.......yes...Jews, Armenians, Coptics, Samaritans...YES.....that's exactly what I'm saying!!! Look at the list below and subtract the Chechens and the few Arabs....
Mark Twain traveled the area during those times and recorded in his journals. The land was under the control of the weak Ottoman Empire and was a wasteland. Because the Jews had not yet taken "political" control, however, it was not yet an item of desire to the muslims.
Secondly, once Twain and other Western travelers arrived, they could confirm for themselves what only the occasional European traveler noted from earlier times, Volney in the 18th century, and Chateaubriand and Lamartine, early in the 19th, had reported: that the Holy Land, over many centuries of Muslim rule, had fallen into a state of ruination and desolation (editors comment: duh!). The soil was unfertile and virtually untillable. The countryside was racked by Bedouin marauders, who lived largely by such raids (same old same old). There were also a few mournful and squalid villages. The total population of Palestine at mid-19th century was estimated at between 50,000 and 100,000. Only Jerusalem attained to the size of a town, with about 40,000 inhabitants at mid-19th century, though it too was in a wretched state. Half were Jews, the other half consisted of dozens of discrete communities: Armenians and Arabs (both Sunni and Shi'a), Ethiopian Copts, Egyptian Copts, Chechens, Circassians, Samaritans, Turcomans, Franciscan monks and nuns of various orders from Italy, France, and Spain, German Lutherans, American Protestant missionaries, Syrian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and many others. Outside of Jerusalem, everyone brought back the same report: desolation, emptiness, mournfulness. This dismal state of the land made clear to visitors (the reporters of their day) that the Ottomans were not much interested in this ill-considered backwater of their empire, which provided them with so little in revenue.
I suggest you read a 1984 book on this and get educated. You will be far ahead of the curve.
From Time Immemorial - Joan Peters.
#290Empathy is important, and being unbiased as to the merits and trangressions of both sides is essential in evolving an understanding of where the higher moral ground is. Name-calling takes one no where useful. But if you look about the globe right now, you have radical Islam on the offensive in the Sudan, Algeria, Indonesia, Pakistan, and on and on. The transgressions of the Christians were legion, but they have for the most part been left in the past. If Christians had anything comparable to Convert or Die or Become Dhimmis, it is well past it. But Islam at least in part is not. They need to be confronted on this, not apologized to.
The role of CNN and the rest of the media and what they show? By pretending that Smyrna did not happen so as to not offend Muslims creates a revisionist history. The History Channel shows a special on the history of Islam (on dvd too), and they talk about Muhammod and do not mention his slaughter of the Bani Quarashi Jews and all the other immoral rape and pillage that he did, this is phoney and it is not what happened. The holocaust is shown on TV, what is so special about Islam that they cannot be confronted with their equivalents? How is Islam to be reformed if everything is hidden? Whatever happened to the truth? If you do not have the truth, just what do you have? The media was instrumental in electing Obama, they did not do their job, investigative journalism is dead, but Obama is tangential here so I won't go farther with that. But the importance of speaking the truth and confronting Islam with the truth must be understood. Listen to Hirsi Ali explain it better than I can at , a remarkable, strong lady, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ
There is this canard about how Muslims lived side - by - side with Coptics, Jews, ... but this is more revisionist history. It may make people feel good, but it is a lie. These people do not understand what a dhimmi, as defined by the Quran, is. Let Hirsi Ali explain it, listen to her words carefully, and you will understand at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyYZulIxNCE Hirsi Ali is very lucid, and understands the issue. I think her view is rational and her way to confront Islam with the facts a must. Listen to what she says about Multiculturalism, of which Obama and the Liberals are so fond of. The business of all cultures are the same and so if one group is not as successful, it must be the fault of someone else (America). The truth is the truth, and Islam has been given a pass much too often by our useless (except for Fox News and talk radio) Politically Correct media which promotes falsehoods so as to not offend anyone. These two videos, maybe a total of about 18 minutes, just listen to what is said very patiently and then evaluate what she has said. You will learn much. Seek the truth.
#291Socal Cool Breeze....so the Ottoman Empire allowed this hodge podge of non-muslims to exist on land they occupied and didn't force them to convert or face death? I don't know what your "hee hee" is about...you know, the answer was one I was honestly unsure of, because I'm working too many hours to research 19th century demographics (not complaining mind you...happy to have a job these days). One thing I was sure of, no matter the answer, I'd have more questions. So answer this sincere question...how did they survive being ruled by the Islamic hordes? Especially when Jerusalem is considered one of their three holiest cities.
Der Alleswisser...The trials and tribulations of the Middle East are undeniable. But you're suggesting that Islam itself is the cause. If it incites the violence you claim, I don't see how the small non-muslim populations were able to survive for so many centuries. It would seem to me they would have been eradicated by now. I still believe that Western European nations and America meddling in the affairs of Muslim nations is as much at the root of it all as anything else. After colonial rule ended, boundaries were drawn in the sand creating nations without regard for who was being put with who. What a shock that these people have been their own worst enemies ever since. Shia and Sunnis seem like they hate each other more than us. And certainly our backing of dictatorships that supported our interests hasn't put us in a very favorable light with the common people. Many of them didn't approve of the attacks on 911, but should it be any surprise that they weren't rioting in the streets against the terrorist? Do you expect them to be best friends with the world power that makes the governments that oppress them rich off of oil money? I'm actually amazed that they like us as much as they do...it's common knowledge that Americans are very popular amonst the Iranian people, if not their government. It's the British and the Russians that they hate on a personal level, because those nations have meddled big time in their affairs over the last century or two.
Obama faces many challenges, none of which he created. Should he encourage people in Iran to rise up? I don't think so...they need to figure things out for themselves...any provocative statements by us will only be seen as more meddling. In Afghanistan, Obama is allowing our military to take the fight to our true enemies...Al Qaeda and the Taliban. He's pulling out of Iraq slower than he promised during his campaign...but the Iraqis know now that we aren't always going to be around...so maybe now they'll start learning how to take care of themselves. As for Israel and Palestine...I don't think blaming Palestinians and taking the Israeli side has worked all that well for the last 60 years. These people need to start talking and working out their issues, and they need to get past playing the "blame game". That goes for Palestinians and Israelis.
#292The reason that non-Islamics were able to survive all those years is via the protection offered them as Dhimmis in the Quran. Hirsi Ali talks of this at the end of one of the videos above. Dhimmis are second class citizens, and can be killed at will by a Muslim. They have no rights, their word against an Islamic is not accepted in Sharia law. Research this word, Dhimmi, and you will understand.
Islamics needed dhimmis, as Muslims have not and do not have the skills and knowledge to make a society run that Jews and other non-Islamics do.
Whalid Phares, in his book The War of Ideas, on page 82 writes:
"From the global doctrine on the kuffar (infidel, non-believer), the jihadists extracted a narrower concept of "special" infidels: the dhimmi,...Islamic dieologues developed particular categories of infidels on historical and theological grounds. The term abl al dhimma first appeared in religious texts in the seventh century. Linguistically, it translates into the 'people under custody." The word meant those 'populations who were at the discretion of someone else.' Historically the dhimmi were essentially teh Christian and Jewish populations who fell under the rule of the caliphate after the Islamic conquest of hte Middle East. Although considered kuffar like all-non Muslims, Jews and Christians were granted a special status for a variety of historical reasons, the most important fo which ws the fact that Muslim theology projected itself as the heir of Judaic and Christian revelations, before the Islamic last revelation from Allah sealed the prophecies. In fact, religious preceptions of predecessor messages are not unique to Islam.....The concept emerged after Caliph Omar conquered Jerusalem in 638 AD and declared the Omari Conditions (al shurut al Umariya) under which Christians and Jews were allowed to worship and live under the caliphate. provided that they would comply with political and socioeconomic measures; there were cast as second-class citizens but protected by the caliph."
"The dhimmi category, in the contemporary debate, is perceived from two contradictory angles. Muslim scholars and many apologist Western academics state that Jews and Christians, also described as ahl al kitab (people of the book), were made inta a specially protected group under the Islamic state. ... The debate still continues world-wide within the intellectual community, but he jihadists have gone beyond a theological analysis: they've inserted the dhimmi status in their agenda for modern Islamic governments, when and if they come to power. On web sites and in articles, books, and declarations and discussions on al Jazerra and other media, the Salafist jihadis have been very clear about the fate fo Jews and Christians in future Taliban-like states and eventually under the reestablished caliphate: they will have to comply with the Omarian Conditions - pay an additional tax called Jizya (penalty), dress differently, wear signs on their clothing, and be barred from a variety of offices within the state. In short, if jihadists establish an emirate or Islamist state, thery will erode all civil rights of Christians and Jews."
The inhumanity and suffering by the Jews and Christians who were enslaved as dhimmis is documented in many books. Revisionists like to sweep this under the rug, to pretend that they lived as equals, but it is just another lie. A good read on this is "Eurabia, Land of Dhimmihod," by Bat Ye'or. Dhimmihod is one of humanity's sadest sagas, it exceeds the Holocaust as it has been with us since the seventh century and is an integral part of Sharia law. Part of Britian is under Sharia law. Do not believe the revisionists, the truth is the truth, and it is immoral to promote falsehoods to further an ideology and agenda.
#293Der Alleswisser...Let's go back to something you wrote on #287..".When the Europeans came to America they did not tell the Indians "You must become a Christian or be beheadded or become a dhimmi." Can you find bad things committed by the Europeans against the native Indians" Of course, but still we co-exist." Now, I'm not saying I'd want to be a dhimmi...but I don't see how it's any worse than being an Indian who's been stripped of his land and marched off to live in some desolate location. And it's certainly not worse than being an African who was put in chains, shipped on a boat over an ocean, and then sold into slavery. I agree with you that the truth is the truth, and writing falsehoods is an immoral way to promote an ideology. The fact is, minority populations have often been subjected to abuse by the majority across the globe and throughout history.
There is not one kind of Christian, and not one kind of Muslim. I've given it some thought, and I have to correct myself. I am on a side....I'm on the side against the fundamentalists extremists of each religion. I'm on the side of Christians and Muslims who would never use religion as a justification for the mistreatment of others. If that makes my position too leftist or radical for anyone here, then so be it.
#294The only thing I think Obama is doing right is being aggressive in Afghanistan, and continuing to allow the missile strikes from UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles). His speech in Bagdad to the troops upon the handover to the Iraquis was the pinnacle of hypocrisy, he and the Democrats were a major obstacle to success in Iraq and then he takes credit for it, when it is Bush who is responsible. The same Bush that he blames everything on. He praised the troops for putting down the terrorists who sought to undermine civilization there when he opposed the surge that made it happen. The Democrats with their character assignation of General "Betrayus," these are immoral un-American people, the Harry Reids, George Sorrels, Moveon.org, rot-from-within enemies. He and the Democrats did everything possible to lose in Iraq so they could blame Bush, and Bush is who deserves credit for it, and Obama, who opposed the Surge that made it happen stands up there and talks to the troops as if he is responsible for it.
The main threat to national security the Democrats pose is the destruction of the American economy. Because of the Democrats, we must import oil from our enemies, we cannot drill offshore or in Alaska's Anwar Province, and we have not built a refinery since 1983, and we now have fewer refineries than we did then. The Democrats oppose nuclear power, which is the real solution if and when oil reserves are exhausted. Obama seeks to destroy the American coal industry, which now provides 50% of our electricity.
The Democrats have destroyed the American automobile industry, once the model for the world, pandering to the Unions who vote block Democrat, saddling GM, Chrysler, ... with UAW benefits that make them uncompetitive with foreign manufacturers. Showering them with all kinds of environmental regulations to "Save the Planet." Obama and the Democrats think more regulation and more government is the solution to everything, they forget that it was the Private Sector and the entrepreneur that made the US the greatest nation of the twentieth century and the greatest nation the world had ever seen. Now they rush to socialism. On page 227 of "48 Liberal Lies About American History," by Larry Schweikart, there is:
"How did the US auto industry, which once outproduced and outsold all major foreign competitors by a factor of four, fall on such hard times? How did American steel, not only the world leader for decades, but the standard bearer for quality, nearly collapse in the 1970s and 1980s before staging a recovery?......Clean air regulations, as embodied in the 1965 (LBJ) Vehicle Air Pollution Act, came at an extraordinarily high price-one that has generally been hidden from the American public by environmentalists. One study said the act reduced the gross national product by 2.6%, another put the damage at a much higher level, about $300 billion or 'about half of the combined federal, state, and local expenditures on education.' .......Another multistate study concluded that from 1972 to 1987, the Clean Air Act alone cost $112 billion and 590,000 lost jobs."
#295"Foreign companies, such as Japan, which did not operate under such onerous regulations, were far more productive and soon took the lead in steel and autos. By 1980, Japan produced 11 million automobiles, many shipped to American shores. It represented a stunning acheivement for a nation that had onlny made half a million vehicles in 1960, when Detroit claimed nearly 80% of the world market. Unions and auto industry lobbyists whined about 'unfair competition' and sought government protection. ... Likewise, American steel, witnessing spiraling wage costs and regulatory burdens, pleaded for help from the government. In 1968 (LBJ), the US government obliged with the Voluntary Restraint Agreements to reduce steel imports, but rather than restructuring to become competitive, the steel industry started to rely on such protection. In reality, Japanese companies were obtaining their advantage through labor costs that were only 70% of those in the United States. Unions played a key role in the decline of American steel: when American unionized workers made $20 and hour in the early 1980s, their Japanese counterparts earned $3. Mainly, however, environmental concerns and regulations prohibited US steelmakers from opening new, more competitive facilities.....In just over a decade, from 1974 to 1986, American steel companies shed 337,000 jobs and the industry eliminated 30% of its steelmaking capacity. Before it was over, 75% of all US steelworkers had lost their jobs."
Now, get your arms around that, synthesize it, take it all in. Now ask yourself the question: Which party is supported by and supports labor unions and environmentalists? Now ask yourself the question: Why is it that Honda, Toyota, and others can be profitable in the US by putting their plants in states like Kentucky, North and South Carolina, Alabama.... that have Right to Work laws, unlike Michigan which is run by liberals and GM, Chrysler, and Ford are saddled with labor unions? Then ask yourself the question: Why is it that the top ten crime and poverty rate cities all are run by Democrats? Then take on the question: Why is it that California, which just 30 or so years ago was the model of prosperity for the world, is now going down the tube economically, and what does this have to do with being run by liberals like Barbara Boxer and Maxine Waters and all the other Democrats since the 1970s (since Regan)?? Now ask: Would North Korea be firing all those missiles if Ronald Regan was in the White House? Now ask: How likely is it that the world will become a safer place with a liberal appeaser and apologizer in the White House who seems to be a Jimmy Carter clone foreign policy wise?
Fast forward to Obama and the Democrats of today, and in view of the above, ask yourself the question: What is Cap and Trade going to do to an American economy already in serious trouble due to the Democrats (Barney Frank, Franklin Raines, Bill Clinton, ACORN, Jimmy Carter, Obama, Gregory Meeks, Maxine Waters, Lacy Clay, Chris Dodd...but of course, they blame Bush) forcing banks to make sub-prime loans to people who could not pay under the victimology of Affordable Housing, just what is this going to do for the economy??? Now ask: Is it moral to tell the American People that only the top 5% of income earners would see a tax increase and the bottom 95% would get a tax cut, when Cap-And-Trade would be a huge, regressive tax burden for all? And, even worse, the excuse is "It is not a tax, it is a bill to save the planet." Is this not lying, is this moral? Then ask: Is this not just a way to generate a revenue stream for socialized medicine, and is not socialized medicine just another way to buy votes with taxpayer money?
And in view of the Democrats being the party of the victim, throwing taxpayer money at all who claim to be victims, which is basically all white men who are not gay, now ask yourself this sequence of questions: If you see someone who is in distress and you reach into your own pocket and take out money and give it to him, is this not noble and charitable? But if you see someone who needs help and you go into the pockets of others and take their money and give it to the unfortunate, is this not stealing?
#296From Jamie in #293: "Let's go back to something you wrote on #287..".When the Europeans came to America they did not tell the Indians "You must become a Christian or be beheadded or become a dhimmi." Can you find bad things committed by the Europeans against the native Indians" Of course, but still we co-exist." Now, I'm not saying I'd want to be a dhimmi...but I don't see how it's any worse than being an Indian who's been stripped of his land and marched off to live in some desolate location. And it's certainly not worse than being an African who was put in chains, shipped on a boat over an ocean, and then sold into slavery."
Keep in mind that Jamie is a blogger who is researching 19th century history, and so is well into the right tail of the bell-shaped (Guassian or Normal) distribution of historical knowledge. This shows the effect of a public education system that is driven by political correctness in the history it teaches, and it shows how our media will not report anything that might offend Islamics. It is breath-taking and alarming that in a nation which churps about Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press that there is a general lack of knowledge about dhimmitude, and that there is common belief that Christians and Jews lived side-by-side with tolerant Islamic invaders. Islam has been given a pass in our education system and media on its brutal, inhumane history history of spreading religion by the sword. The common belief in West is that Islamics were the victims of the Crusades; nothing is taught or said about Islam's fourteen centuries of aggression and suppression, to not offend. This is suppression of the truth, Islamics need to be confronted with their history and their practices. Everyone else is, the Germans were not given a free pass on the Holocaust. Did you see the look of disgust on the face of German Chancellor Andrea Merkel as Obama stood next to her and drug Germany thru the mud for the Holocaust right after he had praised Islam in Cairo? America has been blamed for everything, now the absurdity of its President apologizing to people that do not deserve to be apologozed for. So why not the truth about Islam?
As to the practice of Dhimmitude, it was not an exaggeration, but an understatement to say that the inhumanity of Dhimmitude exceeded that of the Holocaust, as it has taken place since the seventh century. We think this was just cowboys and indians??
Let's go to specifics. On page 174 of Serge Trifkovic's Defeating Jihad, there is:
"The trend to political correctitude and 'sensitivity' started with Alladin but reached a mature form with Ridley Scott's 2005 epic about the Crusades, Kindom of Heaven. It conveyed the message that in a conflict between Christians and Muslims, the former attack, the latter react...."
"Kindom of Heaven" does not tell us that the Crusades were defensive in nature, a reaction to the endless centuries of Muslim conquest, pillage, and enslavement of Christendom. It does not even hint at the fact that, a few generations earlier, Christianity had covered, outside Europe, the ancient Roman province of Asia, extending across the Caucasus to the Caspian sea, Syria with the Holy Land, and a wide belt of North Africa all the way to the Atlantic Ocean."
"The Crusades were but a temporary setback to Islamic expansion. But they provided the source of endless arguments within the Western academia that sought to establish some moral equivalence between Muslims and Christians at first, and eventually to use the Crusades as a tool to elevate the former to victimhood and to condemn the latter as aggressors. This a spectacular role-reversal to which Kingdom of Heaven makes an enthusiastic contribution."
This victimhood of Islamics is not accidental, it is an intentional part of Islam to lie to promote Islam, the Quran's al Taqiya, and they are the Planet's best at claiming victimology when actually the aggressor.
#297Now to p49 of Eurabia, by Bat Ye'or:
"Except for Arabia itself, all the countries that today are called 'Arab' had been conquered by Arab jihad armies."
Now to p163:
"The myth of Islamic tolerance was born in France during the 17th and 18th centuries, and exerted an influence on political thinkers of the Enlightenment. In the 19th century, the myth fulfilled an ideological and political function, serving the colonial ambitions of France in the Middle East and Great Britian's interest in preserving the Ottoman Empire as a bulwark against Russian and French expansion......As a political and ideological weapon, it justified the defense of the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire's possessions...In the 20th century, the tolerance myth continued to be employed in support of the pro-Muslim policies of European statesmen."
"France, meanwhile, adopted an Arab view of the tolerance theme to serve its own colonial ambitions in the Ottoman Arab terrorities. After WWI and the Armenian genocide, which was fueled by Islamic jihad ideology and accompanied by massacres of Assyrian Christians, the myth of 'Ottoman tolerance' was replaced by that of 'peaceful coexistance under the first Arab caliphs.' Like its predecessor, this slogan served the political interests of the European powers in their Muslim colonies.......In fact there are no historical proofs of the first Arab caliphs tolerance in the Christian lands conquered by jihad. Arab caliphs used Christian notables and patriarchs to impose despotic rule over their overwhelmingly Christian dhimmi populations."
"Nonetheless, the theme of 7th century Arab tolerance formed the cornerstone of modern Muslim-Christian Arab nationalism in Palestine, and an ideological weapon against any claims to independence by Jews and Christian dhimmi populations......European economic interests in the Arab world required a lax and complacent policy toward the Muslim immigrants streaming into Europe. They were welcomed as builders of the future Euro-Arab alliance: 'Eurabia.'"
Page 190:
"The term 'dhimmitude' does not refer just to isolated incidents. The dhimma system was a key component of an entire civilization, encompassing 13 centuries of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim interaction on three continents. One should also include the entire Hindu history under Muslim rulers in this dhimmitude civilization. ....History...is a potent receptacle of fevor, tragedy, hope, pussillanimity, desperation, and faith. Such is the texture of dhimmitude, darkened by a hapless resignation to oppression. While dhimmitude embraces other religions also, the aspects relating to its Jewish and Christian victims are deeply rooted in their biblical values and perception."
So the above are exerpts from a truely shameful history, especially that of the French. Now you perhaps understand why France has been so pro-Islamic, why they sell Mirages and Exocets to the Islamics, and why USAF jets from Britian had to fly and extra thousand miles to bomb Khadaffi's Libya in the 1980s as they were forbidden to overfly France. A non - fictional real life story of selling one's soul to the devil. But we in America have a lot to be ashamed of too, not knowing the truth about the Crusades and dhimmitude. This was not cowboys and Indians, and we must realize that it was blacks in Africa that sold other blacks into slavery, and that there is no comparison between cowboys and indians and slavery and the centuries of dhimmitude. The true shame is that everyone knows about cowboys and Indians and slavery, but so as not to offend Muslims, dhimmitude is kept secret by our educators and by our media. But they only know of slavery in America, all the rest is ignored, including current day slavery by Islamics in Mauritania and elsewhere. That's a lot of shame.
Let's end with something very special from the slavery story, the story of Amazing Grace, or "Just the Black Notes." If you have not seen this, you will find this poignant and inspirational at http://pjcockrell.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/amazing-grace-just-the-black-notes/#comment-2884
#298Der Alleswisser...What does your diatribe against Obama's economic policies have to do with our discussion? For the record, I'm not a fan of unions. As far as energy policy goes, I believe in America's ingenuity. If not for Republicans, weak Democrats, and powerful oil executives, this country would be a lot farther down the road towards perfecting the electric car. I give nuclear energy a definite maybe. Health care...I have concerns about people with pre-existing conditions not being able to get health coverage. Do Republicans have a solution? If so, they haven't marketed it very well. Here's something neither party has the guts to touch...legalizing marijuana. Instead of raising the tax on tobacco, let's legalize marijuana and tax that. Personally, I hate smoking....whatever the substance. I'm all for banning it in confined spaces and public events. But personally, I feel what people do in their own private space is their business. Any other off topic discussions you would like to engage in?
Thanks for questioning the quality of my education. But you're asking me to believe dhimmitude was worse than slavery, the Holocaust, and the forced relocation of Native American tribes. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I might not be as well versed as you about life under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, but at least I know enough about our own country's history to realize cowboys didn't herd the Cherokee tribe down the Trail of Tears. You spend so much time trying to drown me in volumes of info about Muslim misdeeds. There are oceans of material from American history you could spend your time swimming in, but you choose not to. Does that bad history make America an evil place, or Christianity an evil religion? Certainly not. So it still seems to me you have two standards...one for Muslims, and one for Christians.
No, slavery was not limited to America. I'm a white southerner, so believe me, I know all about blacks selling blacks into slavery. In fact, I hear there were even a couple of free blacks in America who owned slaves. And you know what...none of that changed the fact that it was an evil institution. On top of that, it was an evil institution that depended on quotes from the Bible as a justification for its existance. Yet Quakers read that same Bible, and came to a very different conclusion. Just like Muslims all read the Koran, yet come away with conclusions different from each other. Why not recognize that fact? You don't have to endorse Islam to do that.
#299Only time for a quick glance and reply-not disparaging your education, in fact the opposite. Right tail of the bell curve means well - educated. If you are 2-sigma above the mean this means you are in the top 95% education - wise. I estimate you are at least two sigma above the mean as you are researching history and in view of your posts.
Cheerio
#300>Socal Cool Breeze....so the Ottoman Empire allowed this hodge podge of >non-muslims to exist on land they occupied and didn't force them to convert or face death? I don't know what your "hee hee" is about...you know, the answer was one I was honestly unsure of, because I'm working too many hours to research 19th century demographics (not complaining mind you...happy to have a job these days). One thing I was sure of, no matter the answer, I'd have more questions. So answer this sincere question...how did they survive being ruled by the Islamic hordes? Especially when Jerusalem is considered one of their three holiest cities.
My undergraduate degree was not World History but I can tell you that the Ottoman Empire was very weak by this time.
#301From Jamie...
>Der Alleswisser...What does your diatribe against Obama's economic policies have to do with our discussion? For the record, I'm not a fan of unions. As far as energy policy goes, I believe in America's ingenuity. If not for Republicans, weak Democrats, and powerful oil executives, this country would be a lot farther down the road towards perfecting the electric car. I give nuclear energy a definite maybe. Health care...I have concerns about people with pre-existing conditions not being able to get health coverage. Do Republicans have a solution? If so, they haven't marketed it very well. Here's something neither party has the guts to touch...legalizing marijuana. Instead of raising the tax on tobacco, let's legalize marijuana and tax that. Personally, I hate smoking....whatever the substance. I'm all for banning it in confined spaces and public events. But personally, I feel what people do in their own private space is their business. Any other off topic discussions you would like to engage in?
Obama is going to bankrupt us as we are entering into another great historic surge of Islamic fury. I personally believe this will be the last one and that then Islam will fade into the dust bin of history (because, like communism, it is morally and ideally bankrupt and now with the age of information the darkness of the system cannot survive the antiseptic power of light) but this one will be horrible. The caliphate will range from Western China and Southeast Asia to Morocco and into Europe. We will need every penny we've got to fight the b*stards and he is wasting our precious dollars researching the sex habits of drunken Chinese prostitutes, the corruption of ACORN, more bridges to nowhere, and other ridiculous nonsense...stuff that he promised to stuff during the campaign.
You are against unions - good. You are almost there on nuclear power - good....we need it all: wind, solar, nuclear, nat gas, off shore oil, north slope...etc. It is environmental racism to say we won't drill ANWAR but we will drill someone else's country. You know Obama's $1.6 Trillion Healthcare fiasco is a disaster and you just want the conservative answer...how about just a voucher of $1500 per year for the 20 million uninsured at a cost of $30 Billion instead of the $1.6 Trillion? That's the Republican plan. Legalize pot? Some Libertarians/conservatives, including yours truly are there...you know a lot of Dems are not...so that is not really a decision point....besides, the other issues (islam and the interrelated Obama Depression are the 800 pound gorillas) are too big at this time to dwell on that one. You believe in America's ingenuity - good. Then let Americans do what we have done in the past and quit stopping them like the Dems do. Here in California we can't even build solar power facilities because of bugs and bunnies environmental concerns now! It is ridiculous! You tend to state near conservative policies in the above paragraph yet you vote for leftist Democrats....it is a disconnect.
And all of this is the important because just like like Paul Revere warned a few centuries ago when another invader threatened....we now have a new enemy and it is ...the muslims. We face a threat in the West that is greater than we have ever faced simply because most persons do not believe it is a terrible danger. In WWII, people recognized that Hitler and Tojo were a threat because they had large standing armies. That is not the case here and most people have become complacent...they underestimate the even greater threat. But once Pakistan and another country or two fall to Usama, Ayman and the new Caliphate....look out...the action will start fast and furious.
#302Socal Cool Breeze...you call $1500 per year a health plan? My knee surgery alone cost me $3,000 out of pocket...thank God I had insurance to cover the other ten grand. Sorry...I don't see a voucher as a cure for the ills of the uninsured.
My near conservative side is not a disconnect...I told you I was a moderate. Just because I don't share your Islamic phobias doesn't mean I'm a birkenstock wearing vegan handcuffed to a pine tree outside AFL-CIO headquarters as I read my new copy of the Communist Manifesto that I picked up from Barnes and Nobles on my way home from my PETA meeting last night. People don't fall as easily into "us and them" categories as easily as most people seem to think. I don't like unions, but I don't hate them. I think they've gotten greedy over the years and need to take a step back and take a hard look at themselves. I'm not a big fan of the Free Choice Act (which I'm assuming you're familiar with), but if it was at the top of the agenda for Obama and the Democrats it would have been pushed through already. It's like the paranoia that guns would be outlawed with Obama in office...hasn't happenned. In fact, I believe now you can take guns into National Parks....which should make the Civil War reenactors around here a bit happier. Of course, the quirky trade off is that credit card rates for people like me who have good credit are going up so that people with bad credit won't be charged exorbitant rates. I'm not thrilled with that...but there are a ton of issues out there, and that isn't one of my top ones.
For me, new energy sources and technologies are huge. This country has to take a step forward, and it's going to mean hard work, pain, suffering, and an investment of time and money. But do we want 21st century jobs, or do we want the old textile mill jobs back from China? I'm not a fan of nuclear power, but I'm willing to compromise on it if it helps wean us off the giant oil nipple we're attached to. Health care reform is also huge...and though the Democrats are far from having a perfect solution, at least they're trying. Really...a $1,500 voucher...please tell me there's more to their ideas than that. As for the economy, corporate bailouts and stimulus package money was coming no matter who was in office. As for the war on terror, Obama is shifting the focus away from Iraq and towards Afghanistan. And I hope the surge worked...but I don't think we'll ever know for sure until after we leave. Staying there indefinitely sounds like a poor plan to me because it's a drain on our blood and treasure and would likely create a nation so dependent on us for it's survival that it would never have a chance to survive on it's on. And Obama's not rushing us out...it seems slow but deliberate thus far, while in Afghanistan he's putting on the heat. Sorry, I like the strategy.
I could go on, but all that said, what I really like about Obama is his ability to see all sides of an issue. I don't know about you guys, but I read the "Audacity of Hope"...and if you've read his book I don't see how you could claim that he doesn't "get it". He very much understands where his opponents are coming from, and he is never above listening to what they have to say. The fact that he has extended a hand to Republicans and even brought some into his Cabinet is not an act. He believes, as Lincoln did, in listening to a wide varieties of opinions as he tries to make the best decision. Personally, I think McCain would have been a good president. But Obama is a one in a billion kind of leader...so hate on him all you want. The greatest leaders in history have always had their critics.
As for the Ottoman Empire
#303As for the Ottoman Empire...they were as weak as your argument. The Holy Land was under Islamic control for over a thousand years. In all that time, you're suggesting the only thing stopping them from crushing the non-Muslim populations was a lack of strength? Still not buying it.
Der Alleswisser..."This shows the effect of a public education system that is driven by political correctness in the history it teaches"...you are partly right...I was not taught the dark side of Islam in high school. But the whole truth would be I was taught next to nothing about Islam, or the entire third world for that matter. It was US History and Western Civilization...and then people whined and moaned about "black history month", as if 90% of our time wasn't devoted to the study of how white people ruled the world. I would have enjoyed a little more variety...US History is important, but kids are learning nothing about China...and if the US has a future rival, I think China is as big a candidate as anybody.
But as far as education goes...critical thinking should forever outweigh the ability to memorize facts when it comes to education. You may not like my conclusions...but I assure you that I have given the facts careful consideration.
#304>Socal Cool Breeze...you call $1500 per year a health plan? My knee surgery alone cost me $3,000 out of pocket...thank God I had insurance to cover the other ten grand. Sorry...I don't see a voucher as a cure for the ills of the uninsured.
You know Jamie, I just don't know what you folks on the left want except a total utopia or perhaps....nirvana. You are going to take our good healthcare system and ruin it. People come here to get healthcare because it is the best in world. I sure wouldn't go to the socialist states that Obama wants to emulate to get coverage. And anyone that would should have their head examined at one of our best pyschiatric hospitals....would you?
First of all, before we even get into this any further...... I don't know where it states in the constitution that it is my responsibility to provide insurance for someone living in Alaska but I'm willing to do it since the left is in control and I don't have much to say about it. With what little say I do have.......I am suggesting we be REASONABLE. And my definition of reasonable is $1500.
I suggest you go read a book or at least check a few websites and quit shooting from the hip as you seem to always do. But here's one better....this time, I'll even do it for you......I am going to assume you are a female and that you were born on Christmas day 1980.....so you are about 38 years old -- if my math isn't too rusty. I went to ehealthinsurance.com and found that there are about 6 great plans with Aetna that you can buy from $95 to $226 per month to cover you. So, you can take the $125 that I, the taxpayer, is going to give you that I worked hard to earn (yes, I am going to give it to you out of MY pocket) and you can go get a plan and pocket my change.....OR, you can chip in a little more of your own money, if you ever work, and go get a GOLD plated plan.....YOUR choice.....If the scale increases with a larger pool, these rates will go down just that much more....Any way you go, it will give you healthcare miles better than Venezuela, Cuba, Nicarauga, N. Korea or any other socialist utopia that Obummer wants to emulate with our great American healthcare system.
And by the way, we have universal coverage right now. If you get hurt, they will fix you. It is required by federal law under the Baker Act.
#305>As for the Ottoman Empire...they were as weak as your argument. The Holy Land was under Islamic control for over a thousand years. In all that time, you're suggesting the only thing stopping them from crushing the non-Muslim populations was a lack of strength? Still not buying it.
Jamie....This is just useless rhetoric...."it's weak". Okay....then put out a counter argument. Your girlfriend was so right. You do like to argue for the sake of arguing. But it is worse than that. It is arguing without facts. If you know a better reason why they did not kick out the Jews and Christians.....LET'S HEAR IT...PUT IT UP...otherwise......ACCEPT IT or move on to something.
I will repeat it with a few additional thoughts and then move on ...they were weak. Read any World History book. Just a few years later, they got their butts kicked in WWI after which they collapsed and went secular. And I can't help it if you didn't study world history as you stated above. That's the facts. But there is more to it than that. I think they really didn't care that much about Jerusalem and the area. Their zeal for out-of-country conquest was gone by that time and they didn't have the money. They were concentrating on massacring Kurds and Armenians. I mean really, other than their problems with the Greeks, have you heard anything from the Turks during all of the Middle East problems of the past 50 years?
Der Al would probably know the specifics better but I don't think the muslim problem raised its ugly head until the 1920s and the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. And it really took off in the mid 1950s with the publication of a retrograde work by Hassan Qutb known as Milestones.
#306Socal Cool Breeze...Insurance coverage denied because of pre-existing conditions, insurance companies dropping coverage on people right before major procedures, people losing their life savings because they get sick....you can shrug your shoulders and say none of it can be fixed, or you can try to do something about it. It's not like socialized medicine is the only path to universal health care. Do you know anything about health care in the Netherlands or Japan? Let's talk about them, and not just the UK and Canada. There are a lot of nations trying out new ideas...let's look at what they're doing and see what is working and what's not. I'm lucky, I have insurance through work. But just because I'm in good health and ok doesn't mean the way this nation pays for health care doesn't need a tune up. Sorry if I spilled any bleeding heart liberal blood on you.
#307Socal Cool Breeze...So now you say the "muslim problem" started in the 1920's? Are you suggesting Islam wasn't always the evil you claim it is now? Just trying to understand your position...because I could have sworn you guys were implying that Islam was always evil to the core with no redeeming qualities. So the Jews and Christian Arabs in the Holy Land weren't annihilated by the Muslims when Islamic power was at it's peak because the religion did not become pure evil until the 20th century? And so by that time, the Muslims were too weak to finish the job? Do I understand you correctly Cool Breeze? Do you agree with it Der Al?
I'm aware of the Muslim unrest in the 1920's...it was a reaction to the mass immigration of Jews to the Holy Land. Not the level of violence that we see now...but the foundation was certainly being laid. Anyway, I've asked this kind of question before, but I'll ask it again. What about their reaction to this mass migration would a historian find particularly shocking when compared to other similar events in human history?
#308Socal Cool Breeze...I never said I didn't study world history. I said the educational system I went through was extremely lax about teaching third world history. But I'm quite capable of reading in my spare time...so to suggest I'm uneducated about the subject would be incorrect. Unfortunately, not all of our fellow Americans take interest in studying world affairs in their spare time. When the population of a democracy doesn't properly educate itself, it ends up fighting Saddam Hussein instead of Bin Ladin.
Why did Muslims not kick Christians and Jews out of the Holy Land while ruling it off and on over a thousand years? Simple. Because the religion is not the pure evil people here imply it to be. Does it have a violent past? Certainly. Tell me a religion that doesn't. People here, such as yourself, want to claim that Islam is the cause of violence in the Middle East. I wish it were that simple. But it is not, and in fact I find that position to be detrimental to our war against terror. It is ironic that I should be seen by people here as sympathetic to Islam, when I don't even like the religion. I love America...I love what I believe our country stands for...and I believe we stand for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happinness. We stand for free speech. We stand for freedom of religion. We shouldn't compromise those beliefs because others don't share them. Our principles are not convenient, but those who endorse things like torture dishonor themselves and their country.
#309Jamie, I really think you should move to Saudi Arabia and live there as a woman for 12 months. I think your liberal-left perceptions would radically change.
No, I am not suggesting that the world did not have trouble with islam before the 1920s. That is ridiculous and you know it...why would you even waste your time typing such a statement? C'mon. They have been a problem since their founding by the warrior in the 7th Century. It is just that they have had periods of great surge and periods of withdrawl...like any army. I mean really...Der Al has gone to great lengths to explain to you the Dhimmi system and you still don't get it....I can't do any better than his great works as written above. That's why I think you should try living under it in Saudi Arabia for a year. Wear a full-blown Burkha for a year...get beaten, whipped or beheaded when you transgress the system...get a real taste of the system that is "no different", as you say.
Regarding insurance....okay, go with Japan, go with Netherlands...you pick the country that you wish to change our great current system to now try to emulate. Because I am a small businessman and my business is failing under the OBAMA DEPRESSION, I might just want to go on your "free" government healthcare system and I want YOU, JAMIE, to pay for ME. Because, you, JAMIE, are the "government".
Since you did not like the insurance plan I chose to pay for you....then I will ask.....How much in taxes do YOU want to pay out of YOUR paycheck EACH MONTH FOR ME? How much for my wife and kids? Don't hem and haw like your hero OBAMA...give the exact dollars....!
#310Here we go again...Whenever, wherever, however...whatever the reason...muslims just can't get along their fellow human beings...we see it EVERY DAY....the evidence is in folks...if you are a part of this political oranization known as islam, as TIJ says above...you need to GET OUT!!! There are so many other peaceful religions wherein you can express your love of God and live in harmony with the rest of God's children without killing, beating, bombing or maiming them.
Urumqi, China 7-7-09
Muslim Uighurs Killed 156 Han Chinese in violent riots Sunday in this western China city. Uighur groups say many more have died. The unrest erupted when Uighur protesters attacked vehicles before turning on local Han Chinese and battling security forces in Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang province.
On Tuesday about 200 Uighurs - mostly women – again faced off against riot police to appeal for the release of more than 1,400 people arrested over Sunday's violence.
#311Socal Cool Breeze...you wrote "Der Al would probably know the specifics better but I don't think the muslim problem raised its ugly head until the 1920s and the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt". So explain to me how Islam grew strong enough to knock on Europe's door but was never capable of eradicating the population of non-muslims from Jerusalem, which they consider one of their holy cities. Being a dhimmi may have sucked, but it was no worse than being a slave in America. In post #287 Der Al wrote "Those who have those "Coexist" bumper stickers that spell out the word including the moon and star do not realize that Islam is not like other religions, it is intrinsic to Islam NOT to coexist".He also wrote "Can you find bad things committed by the Europeans against the native Indians" Of course, but still we co-exist". The fact is, a dhimmi might be a second class citizen, but they still were able to coexist amongst Muslims for centuries. Compare that with the plight of Native Americans, who live on remote reservations far from their original homelands. I would ask an Indian how well we are coexisting, but I never see any around here. There's some Cherokees living about a 3 hour drive away from here that I suppose I could talk to.
You portray Muslims as rabid animals foaming at the mouth and wrecking havoc wherever they go. This is a falsehood. You see Uighurs rioting, but give no thought to the social, poliitical, and economic factors that might incite violence. I don't care how many examples of Islamic violence Der Al offers, because you know full well that Christianity, and every other religion on the face of the Earth has killed in the name of God. But I don't blame God...I blame the self rightous who pick and choose what they see and what they believe. Judge not, lest ye be judged...have you lived in an Islamic nation for a year? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of a Uyghur?
#312Socal Cool Breeze...Obama hasn't been in office long enough for the largest economy in the world to be "his". For that matter, it never belonged to George Bush. But people always love having someone to blame, regardless of party...so whatever.
So I'm guessing you didn't look into what the Netherlands have going on, eh? This is copied from Wikipedia (not the best source of info, but it's quick and easy and will do for now).
The Netherlands has introduced a new system of health care insurance based on risk equalization through a risk equalization pool. In this way, a compulsory insurance package is available to all citizens at affordable cost without the need for the insured to be assessed for risk by the insurance company. Indeed health insurers are now willing to take on high risk individuals because they receive compensation for the higher risks [3].A 2008 article in the journal Health Affairs suggested that the Dutch health system, which combines mandatory universal coverage with competing private health plans, could serve as a model for reform in the US.
I'm sure their system isn't perfect, but at least they've addressed my concern of pre-exisitng conditions. All I'm saying is that there are some ideas out there that might help us improve our health care. We have a problem, and it's going to involve more creative thinking than a $1,500 voucher. So Republicans don't want socialized medicine. Fine. Just offer ideas on improving how we pay for health care...because no matter how great our medicine is, it's no good to anyone if it isn't affordable.
#313Socal Cool Breeze..here's something useful to do with $1,500...give it back to me as a tax break for replacing my broken down HVAC with a new, energy efficient system. Windows, roofing, and other remodeling products qualify as well, although with windows you don't get to count the cost of labor like you do on the HVAC. If I sound like a salesman...I'm not...but I work for a company that sells exterior building products, and the remodeling business is really picking up around here thanks to this tax credit. Anyway, with my new windows and HVAC, in addition to being more energy efficient, my home will no doubt increase in value. So anyway...so far, so good for me living under the Obama regime.
#314In #311 above from Jamie we have: "The fact is, a dhimmi might be a second class citizen, but they still were able to coexist amongst Muslims for centuries. Compare that with the plight of Native Americans, who live on remote reservations far from their original homelands." So let's go to page 44 of Serge Trifkovic in Defeating Jihad:
"The conquered peoples were 'protected persons' only if they submitted to Islamic domination by a 'Contract" (Dhimma), paid poll tax (Jizya) and land tax (haraj) to their masters. Any failure to do so was the breach of contract, enabling the Muslims to kill or enslave them and confiscate their property."
"The cross could not be displayed in public, the people of the book had to wear special clothing, and they were not allowed to carry weapons. They had to take in Muslim travelers, especially soldiers on a campaign."
"The resulting inequality of rights in all domains between Muslims and dhimmis was geared to a steady erosion of the latter communities by the attrition and conversion. By the time of Timur's invasions at the end of the 14th century the Christians became a minority in their own lands where no other religion had been known until the Muslim conquest. They endured for centuries lives of quiet desparation......A host of additional petty rules were adopted that were meant to humiliate non-Muslims. From the 'Pact of Umar,' in which the Christians were forced to solemnly declare, inter alia, 'we shall show deference to the Muslims and shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit down.....We shall not ride on saddles. We shall clip the forelocks of our head. We shall not display our crosses or our books anywhere or our books anywhere in the Muslim thoroughfares or our marketplaces....we shall not build our homes higher than theirs. (Disobediance meant death). It will be permissable for the Muslims to treat them as rebels or dissenters; it is permissible to kill them. The 'protection' is to be abolished if the dhimmis resisted Islamic law, gave allegiance to a non-Muslim power, harmed a Muslim or his property or committed 'blaspemy.'"
Does this sound like what the "White Man" did to Indians for centuries??
In #312 there is: "The Netherlands has introduced a new system of health care insurance based on risk equalization through a risk equalization pool. In this way, a compulsory insurance package is available to all citizens at affordable cost without the need for the insured to be assessed for risk by the insurance company. Indeed health insurers are now willing to take on high risk individuals because they receive compensation for the higher risks [3].A 2008 article in the journal Health Affairs suggested that the Dutch health system, which combines mandatory universal coverage with competing private health plans, could serve as a model for reform in the US."
#315Let's be honest here. The only reason the Netherlands and the rest of Europe has been able to have such generous social programs and 35 hour work weeks is because of living under America's Nuclear Umbrella and having the protection of the US Army in Germany for the last 54 years. Europe has been subsidized by the US taxpayer all that time, and an ungrateful Europe for the most part it has been. Money does not grow on trees. It is understandable and predictable that Europe would embrace socialism under these circumstances; someone else was paying for it and it is easy to spend other peoples' money. It is not understandable that America would now embrace socialism. Capitalism and the entrepreneur made America great. Limiting ruinous health costs thru an insurance type of health care program and limiting doctors and pharmeutical industry lavish life styles has some merit. Drug companies routinely wine and dine doctors at Ruth Chris steakhouses and the like, and not only hundred-dollar steaks for the doctor, but take-outs for the family, all at the expense of the taxpayer. (I am not making this up, this has been told to me by persons working in the field). Doctors making more than they can spend, and outrageous prescription drug costs. Yes, there are abuses that need to be addressed, but I do not want to subsidize the health care of illegals, just so they will vote Democrat, and I do not want to subsidise the health care of those who do not work. I see able bodied people at intersections begging and I think "Go get a job." I do not want to pay health care costs for blacks as part of "Slavery Reparations." If anyone thinks this is paranoia, watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck I expect blacks and all who consider themselves "victims" to work and pay their own way. Let's again be honest: 93% of all blacks voted for Obama. That would make me ashamed if I were black. Insurance against unforseen ruinous costs, yes, but handouts to illegals for political gain, no.
#316Oops. the US protecting Europe for the last 64, not 54 years. And earlier when I said that if one was two-sigma above the mean in a bell-shaped distribution, then this meant that he was in the upper 95th percentile, there is a slight error there. 95% of a normal distribution is within two sigma of the mean, so 5 percent is past that either way, so being two sigma above the mean means being in the upper 97.5th percentile. Another strike for veracity!
#317One more item to add to der Al's enlightening statements about Europe's paid defense program, courtesy of the USA....we have also subsidized much of their drug programs. Throughout the world, there is constant outcry at the cost of American drugs even though they are lowered significantly from what we pay. Yes, in virtually all countries, the cost is much cheaper than America. Take Canada, for instance, just a few miles distant where drugs are commonly 30-50% cheaper. American drug companies have provided much of the world's drug breakthroughs. All of these wonderful drugs are provided to the world, thanks to the high payments and financing provided by the American consumer. We provide for the research that these companies conduct that makes it possible. Yet companies in third world countries such rip off our patents by copying our products with no regard to ownership and the costs to develop these drugs. But of course, as you say, Jamie, Americans are just evil. Blame America first. That's the Obama way.
I am not giving you $1500 to fix your A.C. That is your responsibility. The Obama program he is demanding you pay for is healthcare. You still haven't stated how much additional you will agree to be taxed for the new healthcare program to provide coverage for illegal aliens....forget what the program chosen is......if it isn't vouchers......it will be something else......How much more are you willing to pay? $500 per month? $1000 per month? Don't dodge the question.
Also, are you willing to go live in Saudi Arabia as a woman for a year or two or three or four? It oughta be a hoot if you don't get stoned like Soraya M. did in nearby Iran for cooking dinner. Don't dodge the question.
#318Der Alleswisser...to answer your question, "Does this sound like what the "White Man" did to Indians for centuries??"....yes, it does. The specifics are different, but it doesn't sound worse than how Indians or blacks were treated here.
I like your point about our military forces protecting Europe (and Japan for that matter) since WWII. But they don't make us stay there. In fact, I imagine quite a few people in foreign nations where we have military bases feel our presence not as protection, but as an infringement on their sovereignty. So I wouldn't be against us abandoning those bases...but military leaders would probably disagree with me. I suppose those bases provide strategic advantages that I wouldn't understand. But would we be accepting of European and Japanese military bases scattered across the States?
I'm with you on not subsidizing illegal immigrants. To add to that, I don't agree with granting children born here to illegal immigrants automatic citizenship.
#319Copied from Wikipedia....
It is illegal in The Netherlands for insurers to refuse an application for health insurance, to impose special conditions (e.g. exclusions, deductables, co-pays etc or refuse to fund treatments which a doctor has determined to be medically necessary). The system is 50% financed from payroll taxes paid by employers to a fund controlled by the Health regulator. The government contributes an additional 5% to the regulator's fund. The remaining 45% is collected as premiums paid by the insured directly to the insurance company. Some employers negotiate bulk deals with health insurers and some even pay the employees' premiums as an employment benefit).
This doesn't sound like socialism to me. Of course, I'm not saying what works there will work here...we're two very different nations. But I feel like my concerns about how this nation pays for health care are legitimate, and we need to be open to new ideas. Some new ideas will fail. But being content with the status quo will surely lead us down a treacherous road.
#320Socal Cool Breeze...The $1500 tax credit is a done deal dude. And Obama didn't make the law, he just signed it. This is from http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_legislation
The Energy Policy Act of 2005 first established the energy efficiency tax credits that were effective in 2006 & 2007. The majority of these tax credits were for 10% of the cost, up to $500. On October 3, 2008 former President Bush signed the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (also known as the "Bailout Bill") to put many of the tax credits back in place for 2009, and increased the credit to 30%, up to $1,500. On February 17, 2009 President Obama signed into law the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (also known as the "Stimulus Bill") which among other changes extended the tax credits to 2010.
This $1,500 credit has people buying materials again...which means, for example, that the window manufacturer here in America can keep its employees and can continue to buy raw materials. It means that workers for the distribution companies have jobs. It means that the contractors have jobs. It means that homeowners can use less energy and increase the value of their home. Tax money that is invested wisely is not wasted. Excessive taxation can indeed be damaging...but I would like to see you pay for the roads you drive on and the army that defends you out of your own pocket. I feel our biggest problem over the years has not been taxation, but poor management of the nation's money.
#321Socal Cool Breeze...Burkas are mostly found in only the most conservative of Muslim cultures, such as Afghanistan when it was ruled by the Taliban. There are plenty of Islamic nations that do not commit such oppression. In fact, Women have been elected as heads of state in 4 Islamic nations...Turkey, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Indonesia.
So do I want to be a woman living in Saudi Arabia? No. But I wouldn't want to live in southern California either, so what's your point? How much more do I want to pay for health care? Depends on what kind of return I can expect on my investment. The bottom line is that we can see the trends of the rising cost of health care, and if we don't do something about it now we're going to be in real trouble.
You accuse me of not answering questions directly, but I do attempt to honestly answer them. It's not my fault you don't like what I say.
Anyway, I've made my points. If you want to claim that Islam is evil based on it's history, then don't be surprised when other people compare Muslim brutality with that displayed by other religions and cultures, including Chrisitianity. If you want to blame Islam for the troubles in the Middle East, then you must ignore the other social, economic, and political factors at work. Our enemy is terrorism, not Islam. If you hold those two to be the same, then you push our Muslim allies further away...people we really need on our side in the war against Al Qaeda.
I really get tired of the name callling between the Democrats and the Republicans. Both sides are guilty of it. I like Obama. That doesn't make me Un-American. You accuse me and Obama of saying Americans are evil. What purpose do such insults serve? To me, it seems like your way of dehumanizing me. I'm a Democrat. But more importantly I'm an American. I'm an American who's mother has Alzheimer's. I'm an American who's brother died while serving his country. I'm an American who has worked hard for what I have and I'm happy to pay taxes to a nation that has afforded me so many opportunities. Listen Cool Breeze...I'm able to take some ribbing and deliver it back with the best of 'em, and I've certainly heard worse from others here than I've heard from you. But I suppose tonight I'm just not in the mood for it. So show a fellow American some respect and don't put words like "Americans are just evil" in my mouth when you know damn well that's something I've never said.
#322God bless with your Mother and Alzheimers, and know that much strife lies ahead, I have seen it up close, and it is worse than even cancer. I have seen cancer up close too. It is too slow, no ups and downs, just plateaus followed by downs, very cruel.
On health care, take at how well government bureaucrats and politicians have managed Medicare and Medicade. Do we really want socialized medicine? If you want to waste money, create more government bureaucracies with lots of high paid useless people running things. What about Social Security, just look at how government has screwed that up. Government does not have to worry about asset to debt ratios, it just prints more money, just taxes more. And all these rules and regulations to protect special interest groups. Very inefficient, a waste of taxpayer money. Go into a DMV, a post office, is this who you want running your health care?? And yes, it is socialized medicine, it is nothing like that described in the Netherlands (and now I hope you know who is really paying for that). The Liberals will claim that you can keep your doctor and all of that, but they know full well that companies will dump that if there is a government plan.
From page 62 of Dr. Walter E. Williams' Liberty vs. the Tyranny of Socialism:
"Sometimes the advocates of socialized medicine claim that health care is too important to be left to the market. That's why some politicians are calling for us to adopt health care systems such as those in Canada, the UK, and other European nations......Do we want the government employees who run the troubled Walter Reed Army Medical Center to be in charge of our entire health care system? The people who run the government education system?...After all, they are not motivated by the quest for profits...In the market, there are the ruthless forces of profit, loss, and bankruptcy that make producers accountable to us. In the arena of government - delivered services, there's no such accountability. For example, government schools can go for decades delivering low-quality services, and what's the result? The people who manage it get higher pay. It's nearly impossible to fire the incompetents. And, taxpayers who support the service, are given higher tax bills."
...."Before we buy into single-payer health care systems like Canada's and the UKs, we might want to do a bit of research. The Vancover-based Frasier Institute annually publishes 'Waiting Your Turn.' ... The shortest waiting time was for onocology (4.9 weeks). The longest waiting time was for orthopedic surgery (40.3 weeks).....France's failed health care system resulted in the deaths of 13,000 people, mostly of dehydration, during the heat spell of 2003. Hospitals stopped answering the phones, and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.....I have no problem with people wanting socialism. My problem is when they want to drag me into it."
#323I understand that Liberals are not intentially destroying their country, it is a matter of perspective and education. Take on board what Norman Thomas, 6-time Socialist candidate for President said in 1948:
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without
knowing how it happened."
Regarding Islam, you must be careful with all this Obama and the liberals multiculturalism stuff, the belief that we are just one big global community and we are all the same. And if one group is not successful then another group must have exploited them, This is what all this global warming - Save the Planet - It is all America's fault Cap and Tax stuff is. Obama even said in Russia that no single nation brought down the Berlin wall and that it was many nations who did it including the Russians; he gave the impression that the United States and Britian had a trivial role in it. This is a weak naive Jimmy Carter clone who is destroying the private sector and all that made America great. He does not understand the threat that Islam poses, he thinks he can sway them with style over substance like he did with the shallow uneducated American people.
Look at what John Quincy Adams and Winston Churchill said about Islam. From Theodore Roosevelt (see http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/T9VLFM30K16SAHC66 ):
"There are such 'social values' today in Europe, America, and Australia only because during those thousand years the Christians of Europe possessed the warlike power to do what the Christians of Asia and Africa had failed to do - that is, to beat back the Moslem invader."
#324You have to look at the facts, not the inflated cloying smarmy pablum Obama said in Cairo. He talked of algebra and caligraphy and a few triflings that are very dated and insignificant in comparison to the contributions of others. Where are their Newtons, Tesla's, Amperes, Beethovens, .... this is the Elephant in the Room, they have contributed next to nothing to society and this cannot be chance, it must be the religion. The concept of the moderate Islamic is forbidden by the Quran, as Islam means submission, that there is no sanctity of life in Islam, and questioning is forbidden. It is a religon of death glorified and the afterlife, suppressing all freedom and individual rights in the here and now. The Quran is poison, it is a book of evil. This is shouted by the lack of Islamic contributions noted above, free people think and create, Islam is a blanket that smothers this. There is no love thy neighbor in Islam, there is only the dichotomy of the Infidel and the Believer, and submission to Allah, and death, no life, no freedom. Listen to Hirsi Ali explain this at:
Ask yourself this question: Why does Hirsi Ali need bodyguards? Would someone speaking out against Christianity need bodyguards?
Ernest Renan summed it up appropiately, the true victims of Islam are the Muslim people of whom it has stifled their creativity and denied their freedom. Now the Iranians in the streets, and for centuries not only the dhimmis but the Muslims themselves oppressed by the teachings of this evil, absolute book, the Quran.
"Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels in the Orient that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain the others in the practice of religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service one can render him."
- Ernest Renan (19th century French philosopher)
#325You say....>I like Obama. That doesn't make me Un-American. You accuse me and >Obama of saying Americans are evil. What purpose do such insults >serve? To me, it seems like your way of dehumanizing me. I'm a >Democrat. But more importantly I'm an American.
Yes, I believe that when you cut to the core, Obama and his followers like you are evil. Why? Because you and he want to destroy our country. And that is very evil. Every trip that Obama makes out of the country, he talks about what he perceives to be America's sins and then when he is done tearing us down he starts apologizing to everyone. He never discusses the wonderful things that America has done for the rest of the world. And you Jamie, like most Democrats, you do the same thing.
I am simply calling a spade a spade. Yes I am frank. If it hurts, I am sorry but the truth is often a painful and brutal thing. Go back and read your emails above. You are constantly ragging about how Americans mistreated Indians, how Americans/Brits/French/Dutch overthrew Mosaddeq in 1953, etc., etc., etc. In other words, like most on the left, you ALWAYS concentrate on the negative aspects of American history. Yes, there have been negative aspects of our history. BUT......THERE HAS BEEN SUCH WITH ALL COUNTRIES AND GROUPS. And that INCLUDES Indians. They have massacred other tribes on many, many occasions. Why don't you rail on all those bad tribes and apples? You could write volumes. But what I am trying to say is that I would argue and I think that the record proves overwhelmingly that America, on the whole, is a very good country. The good we have done historically far outweighs the bad when measured by the scales of historical review.
But the bottom line is this......you are a negativist. Most of my college professors were negativists. Obama is a negativist. Democrats are negativists. You only want to see the bad in our country. It is always an attitude of Blame America First. And ponder this long my friend, and I think you will understand why the ultimate intention of that -- is evil.
#326Socal Cool Breeze....The only reason I remind you of the negative side of our history is because you are focusing only on the negative side of Islam. "THERE HAS BEEN SUCH WITH ALL COUNTRIES AND GROUPS"...that is my point! You can't single out one group and hold them to a different standard. If a Muslim was on here saying America was pure evil, then I'd be railing on him!
I am not a negativist. Obama is not a negativist. If you've never heard him speak about America's positive side, then you aren't listening. And that's your choice. You can call me a fool. You can call me a socialist. You can vehemently disagree with me. But when you draw a line between us and say that I'm evil...that I'm anti-American...then you have crossed a line that I will not accept. Democrats serve and die for this country the same as Republicans...your comments dishonor that sacrifice. If you want to live in a country where one party rules and people aren't free to disagree, then perhaps you'll find somewhere like China more to your liking. I think our discussion is over.
Der Alleswisser....thank you for your kind words...the hardest days for my mother are over, as she has reached the late stage of this cruel disease. Her father died from it before it had a name, and her sister is now bedridden with it. They all contracted the disease at a young age..in their sixties. Obviously, it runs in the family...so there is a fair chance that I too will face this one day. There is a genetic test that could tell me for sure, but my doctor advised against it because it would be considered a pre-existing condition that might scare off insurance companies. Thus my concern over the issue of pre-existing conditions. Believe it or not, I'm a bit nervous about the inevitable changes coming to how we pay for health care. I can't say for sure that Obama and the democrats will get it right. But with the Republicans, I'm afraid that nothing will change at all...and that worries me more at this point. You may not agree with me, but I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. And as far as the Muslims go, well...once again we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for not calling me evil...though if I might make a recommendation, that kind of talk coming from your ally Cool Breeze is only hurting your position. There was a time that I was borderline on whether to vote for McCain or Obama...but I got flooded by negative e-mails meant to attack Obama and the Democrats as Anti-American, and it only pushed moderates like myself futher to the left. It may seem inconceivable to some that both Obama and McCain love their country...but it was an easy conclusion for me to reach. In the end...I went with who I thought was best. So far, I am not disappointed..but I'm not satisfied either. It is still early in the game.
#327Quick note on the health care issue...I found a site that seems to me to be an unbiased diagnosis of the overall satisfaction with the systems found in the US, UK, CAN, AUS, and NZ. None of them passed with flying colors...but none of them are as bad as they are sometimes made out to be either(I certainly wouldn't trade any of them for a hospital in a third world nation). I think all nations should remember the motto of the knights of the round table..."adopt, adapt, and improve". Anyway...here's the site...judge for yourself....
#328John Quincy Adams....How ironic that your views regarding Islam are held in such high regard here, by people who would no doubt be your opponents had they lived during your presidency. It is indeed a magnificent country we live in, where such a complicated mix of people have evolved into the most prosperous nation in the world. One can only dream of our potential, if we don't kill each other first.
#329I am not so sure I would want to take a diagnostic test either, it may be better to not know. After seeing what this disease did to my Father, and having thought that cancer was the worst way to die after watching my Mother die of it at an age too young, I have told everyone that if the word "Dementia" or "Alzheimers" comes up, go jump off a rooftop or something. Not only is it too slow and so demeaning to once proud people who know that they are now burdens for unavoidably reasons, it is terribly and ruinously expensive.
I think more cost control is the answer, not socialized medicine. I know those in the medical community have educational debts, but they are not the only ones who are well-educated. I do think they are over-compensated. I have seen too many who have truckloads of money thrown at them, more money than they can spend. And we all know of the outrageous costs of prescription medicine, the hundred - dollar pills, and as Social Cool Breeze mentioned, we pay for the rest of the world. I mentioned earlier the pharmaceutical company folks who lavishly wine and dine doctors to pedal their drugs and the taxpayer picks up the tab. These outrageous costs are what causes others financial ruin, and the lobbyists, lawyers, and overpaid doctors and drug types are the causes. Yes, doctors have high malpractice costs, and so lawyers must be reigned in. Doctors and pharmaceutical folks deserve a good living but not as munificent as they have now. Trial lawyers are huge Democrat supporters and contributors, and they are America's cancer. This is one reason why I oppose the Democrat party. The damage done by trial lawyers ecompasses much more than the medical community. (Witness Sarah Palin having to resign as governor due to liberal Democrats filing bogus ethics claims for political reasons not costing them anything, and her having incurred over a half a million dollars to defend herself, this is something the Democrats should be ashamed of. The Democrat party deserves the scorn of all Americans for embracing these un-American values. It is about Right and Wrong, and the Democrats have the wrong values).
Socialized medicine would be something all of us would regret. You would have poor service, rationing, and higher health costs due to having to pay for a bunch of extra government bureaucrats, and in view of how the government has run things like Social Security and Medicare, you just do not want that.
I encourage the positive elements of Islam. But when someone does something horrible in the name of Allah, and the Muslim World is totally silent, I have to wonder about them. We have all seen the Islamic reaction to the Muhammod Teddy bear and the like, so we know they can be expressive. But it is always something about being offended to protect Islam. What has Islam done that is good and notable? We have talked about the dearth of Islamic Einsteins, Mendelsohnns, Ghandis, Maxwells, ... I can name many things America has done for the benefit of other nations. Notwithstanding all the Obama apologies, it is fair to call the United States the most generous nation in world history. Every earthquake, tsunami, the Marshall Plan, on and on it goes. What has Islam done for the good of mankind in general? What has the Muslim world done that was not to spread Islam?
#330Look at the Zoroastorians, Persians, Armenians, African tribes, and other civilizations that were conquered and destroyed in the name of Islam. It is as if they never existed. Recall what Teddy Roosevelt said of Europe having had social values when Africa and Asia did not due to being able to defend themselves against Islamic invaders. Look at all the invasion of other people's lands that Islamics have done in the name of Allah since the seventh century. It is all aggression and oppression and destruction of other civilizations. It is fueled by birth rates, the four wives per man thing in Islam. This is why Israel has such a problem with them, there are so many of them having children. Islamics are the cowbirds of the human race, they destroy other civilizations.
Obama just gave a rousing speech in Ghana, not too much apologizing for the United States but some mention of British colonialism and the wrong of doing this for exploitation. He talked of a prosperous Africa, but he did not mention the real threat, being oh so politically correct. The threat is Islam, just like it has been for the rest of the world since Muhammod and his so-called relevations and night ride. You have the Islamic genocide in Darfur, Islam in the Horn of Africa, and you have another ongoing genocide in Somalia, all to spread Islam.
If you saw the movie "Blood Diamond," with the children being taken from their families, being made into soldiers, and being taught that their parents were enemies, the movie did not once mention Islam or Allah, but that is exactly what it was. The enemy must be named, Obama and others pretending that Islam is not a threat to Africans and others is nonsense. With all the big talk by Obama, if Ghana is invaded by Islamics, or if Hondurus is invaded by Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, all aggressors know that they will be unopposed, as there is no George Bush, Ronald Regan, ... in the White House. There is no substance, no courage, no anything but a road to economic ruin in the White House, more taxpayer money going to people who cannot pay their mortgages, a total abandonment of sound fiscal principles. If Obama gets either one of Socialized Mecicine or Cap and Tax, say goodbye to American Prosperity. The world would become a much more dangerous place, with no "Policeman of the World." You may not think that America has had that role, but we have already discussed how we have protected Europe for 64 years. Indeed we have been that policeman, and this policeman is now Barney Fife. The world is now a much more dangerous place than it was under George Bush or Ronald Regan.
#331Der Alleswisser...I think the Muslim world has serious trust issues with the West. Is this unreasonable? European nations spread their dominance across the globe, and exploited the resources of those foreign lands to fuel their growth for centuries. Even after gaining independence, there can be no denying that the West has had no qualms with meddling in the internal affairs of these nations to secure it's own interests. On top of that, our alliance and friendship with Israel is well documented, whereas are concern for the welfare of Palestinians is not. Look at Afghanistan...when the Mujahadeen were fighting the Russians, we were quick to be their friends. But when the Russians left, so did we...leaving a very vulnerable population to be terrorized by the Taliban. So the majority of Muslims may denounce terrorism, but the fact is a lot of them may feel like we had it coming. By the way, I am using empathy here...not sympathy...big, big difference.
I know it's true that there's a lot of good things this country has done for Muslims that doesn't get recognized. To me, that's what Obama is trying to fix. It's not about blaming America...it's about us not being too big or arrogant to admit when we were wrong. What you leave out is that in these speeches, he turns right around and attacks Muslim stereotypes about America that aren't true. It's about communication. Get people past the anger and resentment, and start finding solutions. Let Muslims see the true America for once...strong but just. With all due respect to President Bush II, he made things worse by abandoning the attack against Al Qaeda to pursue what appeared to be nation building in Iraq. He pretty much said we're going to do what we're going to do, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. In the end, it just looked like more meddling, no matter how good the intentions. And no matter how successful the surge, we will never know if we have truly succeeded until we have left and Iraq is functioning on it's own.
Listen, if you did something wrong to someone, what would be the right thing to do? Would you just say, well they've done bad things too? Or would you man up and admit your mistake? If you said nothing, would you not be viewed as arrogant?
As for your question, what has Islam done for the good of mankind? I've addressed this issue before. If you are measuring the wealth of nations by how many patents and Nobel Peace prizes they've secured, then the West is the best. By that calculation, one might also conclude that whites have done more good for the world than blacks. But have whites in America and Europe not had more opportunities to succeed, having benefited from living in a prosperous society? And was some of that prosperity not gained at the expense of others? Listen, I'm not blaming whites. It was a different time...and we can't necessarily judge people of the 18th and 19th century using 21st ethics.
Yes, Muslims nations have their own list of sins. And Muslims must come to the table with a new attitude. Hopefully by being the bigger culture and freely admitting our mistakes, they will eventually follow suit and admit their own. The world is so tied up with past wrongs...it's like a giant knot that won't come untied. Sometimes instead of cursing the knot and yanking on it, it's better to take a deep breath and slowly work it out. Does this not make at least a little sense?
#332As for the health care side of our discussion...I agree with you that contolling costs would go a long way to helping fix things. But it's a complicated problem that I think will need to be attacked from several angles. I'd certainly like to see Republicans become more aggressive with their ideas on addressing the issues we face, and less about criticizing the ideas the Democrats have. I really think that risk equalization like the Dutch have needs to be part of the equation. With the way things are set up now, how can insurance companies ever be expected to take on high risk customers? I believe it can be done without government taking over the whole system, but I don't see a solution without at least some government involvement.
Anyone want to take a guess at what John Quincy Adams would suggest? I guarantee you, if here were in office, he'd most likely be doing what Obama is doing (at least in regards to domestic affairs), and in that part of the 19th century, the Democrats would be the ones saying government should stay out. Funny how things change.
#333Der Alleswisser...quick note...I'll agree with you that we were safer with Reagan or Bush I at the helm if you're comparing them to Bush II. What scares me most about what Obama faces is that it may already be too late...with so much bad blood buidling for so long, war may be inevitable for Israel no matter who is President here. But pessimism and speculation won't help the situation....so I'll leave that thought there.
#334You fail to understand that everything comes in degrees. Yes, other religions and groups have insane, crazy killers at very small percentages. They do not pose a threat to world peace as do muslims. Approximately 10-20% of Islam is ready to wage Jihad with AK-47s, bombs, grenades, chemical bombs and even nukes. And other muslims will be forced to join them as the states fall and the Caliphate grows. If they do not, they will be shot, hung, stoned, bombed or beheaded. You, like the ACLU and CAIR, are defending an evil organization. You have chosen sides. Like George Bush said, you are either for us or you are against us. Now I don't agree with him on everything, but on this issue, he was dead right. There is no middle ground. Like you said, no need to discuss any further...you are wasting time with your inane PC gibberish while Rome's burning. Sayanara.
Turning to more important news....
The Brits are turning against the war in Afghanistan. This is very serious.
The following is a cut from an online British publication:
Disquiet and puzzlement must now become openly-expressed anger, or we shall have to endure years of grief and hundreds of sad processions before anything is done. Members of Parliament, struggling for a way to redeem themselves, now have the chance to do so by taking every possible opportunity to question this futile, ill-run and ultimately doomed operation.So far, they have disgraced themselves by allowing it to carry on without any proper debate.But they must act swiftly. At the current appalling rate of loss, every day wasted means at least one more soldier killed, and several more severely injured. Many of these have died, and many more will die, because the useless Ministry of Defeat is so bad – and so slow – at buying the right equipment. This carnage would be bearable only if it had a purpose. Courage and dedication are good in themselves but they ought not to be squandered on futile things by incompetent officials and politicians. Yet, despite the various official pretexts, none of which stands up to a minute’s examination, the operation has no real aim, apart from a pitiful desire to suck up to Washington DC. Why, then, should we provide cover for an American propaganda exercise in Afghanistan?
The total number of dead so far for the Brits is 184 in Afghanistan and they are getting ready to call it quits. Wow. Could you imagine...more than that were lost in many training operations. Winston Churchill must be spinnning in his grave. Approxiamtely 700 Americans have died in the war. Interestingly, there is no oil here for the left to rant about as the reason for the war. In fact, land-locked, dry, poor, Afghanistan is about the last place you would want to fight and die for if your country had imperialistic or other selfish notions.
But...questioning the commitment in England it is not to be unexpected. The Brits are nearly bankrupt as a state...both in a financial sense and a spiritual sense. They don't even know what they are fighting for, at least so says this writer. Apparently, they don't know about the coming Caliphate, probably because it is illegal for the press to write about such stuff in a derogatory fashion and it is certainly not P.C. for the leftist press that is in control of the media.
Here in the U.S., Barack Obama was very anxious to get out of Iraq once he took over the presidency and get U.S. troops over to Afghanistan where the "real war" was, or so he said. Apparently someone in London didn't get the letter or telegraph from old B.O. 'cause, again, they don't seem to know what this little fight is all about. But the treachery runs deep here. The only ones that are firing live ammo in an offensive fashion are primarily the Brits, the Canadians, and the Americans. Once the Brits pull out, the Cannucks and the other "European Peacekeepers" won't be far behind. If B.O. can bankrupt the U.S. as planned, we won't be there standing alone, that's for sure....we'll be gone too. And then the Pakis will fall, for sure, with all their nukes going to al Qaeda. With that phase of the plan completed, al Qaeda will begin their relentless march west. And then the writer of the above article will wish to hell it had all been.....a cute little PR exercise!
#335Whatever makes you feel good about yourself.
#336
The WSJ reports today:
A secret Central Intelligence Agency initiative terminated by Director Leon Panetta was an attempt to carry out a 2001 presidential authorization to capture or kill al Qaeda operatives, according to former intelligence officials familiar with the matter. According to current and former government officials, the agency spent money on planning and possibly some training to kill al Qaeda leaders. It was acting on a 2001 presidential legal pronouncement, known as a finding, which authorized the CIA to pursue such efforts. The initiative hadn't become fully operational at the time Mr. Panetta ended it. In 2001, the CIA also examined the subject of targeted assassinations of al Qaeda leaders, according to three former intelligence officials. It appears that those discussions tapered off within six months. It isn't clear whether they were an early part of the CIA initiative that Mr. Panetta stopped.The revelations about the CIA and its post-9/11 activities have emerged amid a renewed fight between the agency and congressional Democrats. The battle is part of a long-running tug of war between the executive branch and the legislature about how to oversee the activities of the country's intelligence services and how extensively the CIA should brief Congress. One former senior intelligence official said the program was an attempt "to achieve a capacity to carry out something that was directed in the finding," meaning it was looking for ways to capture or kill al Qaeda chieftains. The official noted that Congress had long been briefed on the finding, and that the CIA effort wasn't so much a program as "many ideas suggested over the course of years." It hadn't come close to fruition, he added. Michigan Rep. Pete Hoekstra, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said little had been spent on the efforts -- closer to $1 million than $50 million. "The idea for this kind of program was tossed around in fits and starts," he said. Senior CIA leaders were briefed two or three times on the most recent iteration of the initiative, the last time in the spring of 2008. At that time, CIA brass said that the effort should be narrowed and that Congress should be briefed if the preparations reached a critical stage, a former senior intelligence official said. Amid the high alert following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, a small CIA unit examined the potential for targeted assassinations of al Qaeda operatives, according to the three former officials. Former CIA Director George Tenet, who led the agency in the aftermath of the 2001 attacks, declined through a spokesman to comment. Also in September 2001, as CIA operatives were preparing for an offensive in Afghanistan, officials drafted cables that would have authorized assassinations of specified targets on the spot.One draft cable, later scrapped, authorized officers on the ground to "kill on sight" certain al Qaeda targets, according to one person who saw it. The context of the memo suggested it was designed for the most senior leaders in al Qaeda, this person said. Eventually Mr. Bush issued the finding that authorized the capturing of several top al Qaeda leaders, and allowed officers to kill the targets if capturing proved too dangerous or risky. House lawmakers are now making preparations for an investigation into "this important program", said Rep. Jan Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat, in an interview.
Isn't this strange. I thought the CIA and the U.S. Army had been trying to kill bin Laden and his friends since he killed 3,000 Americans on 9-11. I guess the Democrats have called the operation off. They are now saying they didn't know anything about it. Yet, somehow I distinctly remember Bush offering a bounty for bin Laden on national TV "Dead or Alive". This ought to be an interesting set of hearings now that Obama and the Dems are fully allied with al Qaeda against the CIA's efforts to track them down and kill them.
#337
Interesting that the Dims would claim that the CIA program to kill top al Qaeda operatives was hidden from them.....interesting that it was a front page article from their official daily newsletter, the New York Times, on Dec 15, 2002. Wow, now that's kind of embarrassing that someone dug that up.
Bush Has Widened Authority of C.I.A. to Kill TerroristsNew York Times - December 15, 2002
WASHINGTON, Dec. 14 — The Bush administration has prepared a list of terrorist leaders the Central Intelligence Agency is authorized to kill, if capture is impractical and civilian casualties can be minimized, senior military and intelligence officials said.
The previously undisclosed C.I.A. list includes key Qaeda leaders like Osama bin Laden and his chief deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, as well as other principal figures from Al Qaeda and affiliated terrorist groups, the officials said. The names of about two dozen terrorist leaders have recently been on the lethal-force list, officials said. "It’s the worst of the worst," an official said.
President Bush has provided written legal authority to the C.I.A. to hunt down and kill the terrorists without seeking further approval each time the agency is about to stage an operation. Some officials said the terrorist list was known as the "high-value target list." A spokesman for the White House declined to discuss the list or issues involving the use of lethal force against terrorists. A spokesman for the C.I.A. also declined to comment on the list.
Despite the authority given to the agency, Mr. Bush has not waived the executive order banning assassinations, officials said. The presidential authority to kill terrorists defines operatives of Al Qaeda as enemy combatants and thus legitimate targets for lethal force.
Mr. Bush issued a presidential finding last year, after the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington, providing the basic executive and legal authority for the C.I.A. to either kill or capture terrorist leaders. Initially, the agency used that authority to hunt for Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan. That authority was the basis for the C.I.A.’s attempts to find and kill or capture Mr. Bin laden and other Qaeda leaders during the war in Afghanistan....
The president is not legally required to approve each name added to the list, nor is the C.I.A. required to obtain presidential approval for specific attacks, although officials said Mr. Bush had been kept well informed about the agency’s operations.
In November, the C.I.A. killed a Qaeda leader in a remote region of Yemen. A pilotless Predator aircraft operated by the agency fired a Hellfire antitank missile at a car in which Qaed Salim Sinan al-Harethi, also known as Abu Ali, was riding. Mr. Harethi and five other people, including one suspected Qaeda operative with United States citizenship, were killed in the attack. Mr. Harethi, a key Al Qaeda leader in Yemen who is suspected of helping to plan the bombing of the American destroyer Cole in 2000, is believed to have been on the list of Qaeda leaders that the C.I.A. had been authorized to kill. After the Predator operation in Yemen, American officials said Mr. Bush was not required to approve the mission before the attack, nor was he specifically consulted...
Intelligence officials said the presidential finding authorizing the agency to kill terrorists was not limited to those on the list. The president has given broad authority to the C.I.A. to kill or capture operatives of Al Qaeda around the world, the officials said. But officials said the group’s most senior leaders on the list were the agency’s primary focus...
You really have to wonder what the hell is the problem with these Democrats. We have an agency that is trying to kill terrorists. We have an agency that is trying to work with our armed forces to find and disrupt al Qaeda. You would think our legislators and the president would do everything possible to support the CIA in their mission to kill bin Laden, Ayman al Zawahiri and the rest of these mass murdering thugs. But no, the Dims are still playing their silly little games of politics and the lives of Americans hang in the balance.
This crazy nonsense is all going to blow up in our faces when the CIA officers get called off or scared off and al Qaeda starts to grow unhindered because the Dims keep playing this stupid childish s**t. When will they ever grow up?
#338The Democrats think "We create terrorists, going into Iraq just created more terrorists, it is really all America's fault. We are just too arrogant. We need to apologize more. We need to make sure the civil rights are not violated.(nevermind they are not citizens, and are humanoids who have gone to the darkside b/c of their so-called religious teachings.) We need to let the lawyers handle this war. Democrat micro-managing the Viet Nam war worked so well that we need to make sure lawers are consulted on every aspect of the War on Terror. Oops! We Democrats might offend someone by calling it the War on Terror, lets call it an Overseas Contingency (or some such silly thing). And oh, let's not let the media utter phrases like 'Islamic Terrorist." Let's pretend that we don't know that while not all Islamics are terrorists, that nearly all terrorists are Islamic. Then we won't offend them as much and they will start being nice. Let's extend that to airport security, let's do randomized security and let the taxpayers pay for our screening of 88 year old grandmothers. The Islamics will be so touched by this that they will quit being terrorists. After all, the taxpayers have a lot of money for us Democrats to throw at whatever we please."
That's part of it. The other part is hatched up by Nancy Pelosi, as her counter to her embarassment at claiming that the CIA had lied to congress so she could attack Bush. She is part of the imposing line up of this Democrat administration: #1: Obama #2: Joe Biden #3: NANCY PELOSI #4: Harry Reid. Wow, that strikes fear into the hearts of all of our enemies. Maybe even less so than when James Earl Carter who at #1 brought us the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Now wrap your arms around how the Democrats have handled GITMO. Not only are they proxy murderers, having let all those terrorists go who have returned to terrorism because of their wimpy lawyer beliefs, but today they start lawyering, with your tax money, such stuff as "Is Khalid Sheik Muhammod mentally sane enough to be put on trial?" This is thought to be the beheadder of Daniel Pearl, and the planner of 9/11. The Democrats simply do not understand evil and how Islam commands this evil to those who interpret the Quran literally.
When people speak of "Islamic Fundamentallists," they do not understand that the Quran really does say, to the letter, that these acts committed by KSM and others are commanded by the Quran and Allah. Claiming these acts to be a legal matter is an indicator that the Democrats are too naive and do not have the intellectual capacity to lead the nation's response the the Islamic threat. The attack Dick Cheyney for saying so, and the result could be millions of American lives lost, many more than the Democrats are responsible for losing due to letting terrorists go from GITMO due to their prissy libral mindsets. They of course know that they cannot be held accountable, just like they know that even though things like obstructing wiretaps by the NSA and CIA can cost lives, they cannot be held accountable. This so they can feel good about themselves, basking in such noble aphorisms as "we are a nation who does not stoop to torture."
When the hostages who were held by Iran for 444 days fingered Admadinishitjad as one of the hostage takers, his denial included: "No, I did not take part because I thought we would be swept away by the response." Although this is probably a lie, it is the only thing he has said that I agree with.
#339With the Brits reconsidering their commitment to Afghanistand due to economic considerations and the loss of 184 men, Obama stands near to his goal of total disengagement and retreat from the War on Terror (excuse me...hee, hee, hee, I meant to say...the Overseas Contingency Operation). Once the Brits and the Cannucks pull out...it is all over. The French and the Germans were just there for show. We won't last long on our own with Obama at the helm 'cause this is actually what he wants...an excuse to bow out of the whole thing.
Indeed, Obama will finally have the cover he needs and wants (don't forget, he is a muslim too) to pull out so that the Caliphate can start its real growth -- virtually unhindered by the West. It is difficult to say when any serious Western resistance will come back into play after these events. Probably not until the Caliphate is very powerful but its hard to say. The variables are immense. Some considerations.....what will Israel do with Iran? how will Iran respond? what will happen to Syria and Egypt as a result? what will India do when Islamabad and Kabul fall to al Qaeda? what will the Saudis do when Tehran starts really flexing its muscles as it fully realizes that Obama is a bystander? How will the Shia of Iran interract with the new Sunni powerhouse of al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Pakistan?
These are all issues that the world faces as we draw close the close of the first decade of the third millennium....some will develop into full blown events...others will die out....all are potentially extremely serious....but what are our Dimocratic leaders doing in these perilous times? They are borrowing trillions of dollars and spending trillions of dollars on worthless social programs. They are trying their best to aid our terrorist enemies by harming our CIA. They are working to prop up a Marxist usurper of power in Honduras that violated the constituion of his country with the support of Hugo Chavez. America needs leadership so badly in this worst of times......how sad that when we need it the worst....we have none...
#340
#341Is that Der Alleswisser these McCain supporters just put the beat down on?http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/10/honoring-muslimamerican-soldie.html
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/muslims-in-the-military/31393/
#342The name Mahatma Ghandi is quite storied and historically aluring, but her knowledge of history regarding Palestine presented in the link by Jamie in #340 above is flawed. Ghandi makes the assertion in a 1938 writing that "Palestine belongs to the Arabs." This is simply not so. See the following link for a comphrensive and non-revisionist account of the Arab history in Palestine. This is one of many links at www.palestinefacts.org that the interested can go to for an understanding of a highly politicized and revisionist history area. You can easily spend hours there. Read the truth, in deference to a historically important figure in Ghandi, at http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_first_arabs.php You will see that the Arabs were invaders of Jerusalem, beginning in the third century BC, and that the first conquest was 638 AD. This is not the rightful land of the Arabs, it was first settled by Canaanites, Hebrews, and others.
At http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/747 you will see that as recently as 1882 the Ottoman Turk census had only 141,000 Muslims in all of Israel, and that Muslims now have 21 soverign nations and 800 times the land territory as the Jews. There is plenty of land for Muslims, they have more than any other people. The four wives thing, as well as flooding Israel with Muslims from other countries, is simply a ruse to take the land from the Israelites. What they have more of than any other people is their numbers. Invasion and floods of Muslims is how the Islamics took the lands of all the other destroyed peoples and their civilizations. Just look at the history of Persia, the Middle East, Africa, India, Afghanistan, Italy, Spain, Anatolia......
Islamics are a people who destroy other civilizations to promote the religion. No other religion does this. Islamics do not have anything going for them in terms of science and civilization, their strength is their numbers due to overbreeding, and their relentlessness as fueled by the fanatism of the religion, religious coherence. It is not a nation like Germany, Japan, it is much larger than that, something liberals do not understand. Primitive but dangerous.
Go to any Muslim city, take it all in, (even worse, this is not even safe for a westerner) and then walk the streets of New York, London, Barcelona, Cannes, Tokyo, Honolulu, San Francisco, Athens, ... If you could safely do this, you would understand. I have been in Muslim cities, but at the time it was safer than now, and I was oblivious to the dangers of the religion. I thought people were people, silly me.
They have learned of the Liberal Mindset, and play Liberals like a Stradavarius.
#343In #341:
"Is that Der Alleswisser these McCain supporters just put the beat down on?http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/10/honoring-muslimamerican-soldie.html "
The Muslims depicted appear to be of the educated and non-fanatical variety, and the hammer and sickle folks seem to be just a hate group painting with too broad of a brush. However, this does not mean to paint all Muslims as being like the moderate ones depicted here.
Did you see in today's news about a jihadist conference at the Hilton in Chicago? See it all at http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/07/conveyer-belt-to-terrorism-to-host.html Now this is the real evil. All this demonic filth needs to be at the very least imprisioned. This is from Hell, this is Satan, not the Muslims depicted in the above McCain video. Two different Islamic worlds, which one will prevail?
#344Looks like a very interesting confab in Illinois, der Al. Maybe I'll go to protest. I like the focus of their little get-together because it is starting to break the news a little of what their evil, dark plan for our future really is all about....
...Jihad is the quality that should become second nature to the Islamic Ummah because it is the method of carrying the Da'awah to the world. The question that may be asked here is: will the struggle be with all these states at once, which is not a wise policy, or will the struggle be with some of them while the others will be covenanted, lest all the forces gather against us?
...The answer to this is that the struggle with the Kuffar takes two aspects, the first is the intellectual struggle, which is known as the political conflict, and the second is the bloody struggle, which is the actual war, which is Jihad. As for the intellectual struggle, i.e. the political conflict, this must be with all these states at once and no truce will be concluded with any state with regard to this conflict, because the nature of the contradiction between the ideology of Islam and the Capitalist ideology necessitates this confrontation...
This is the heart of what I have been trying to tell people for 10 years now. The article above had a nice little map which shows the Caliphate from Asia to Africa. This muslim state will be HUGE and it will be very powerful...but it will also include EUROPE before we defeat them. These people are bent on taking the world. And you will either join us to fight them to the death, join them, or you will bow and be beheaded with a rusty sword. There is NO OTHER POSITION. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND...Most people just do not understand how this is going to work.
From Montesquieu, about 1748, "Spirit of the Laws", Book XXIV, Chapter III:
That a moderate Government is most agreeable to the Christian Religion, and a despotic Government to the Mahometan.
THE Christian religion is a stranger to mere despotic power. The mildness so frequently recommended in the gospel, is incompatible with the despotic rage with which a prince punishes his subjects, and exercises himself in cruelty.
From Chapter IV:
It is a misfortune to human nature, when religion is given by a conqueror. The Mahometan religion, which speaks only by the sword, acts still upon men with that destructive spirit with which it was founded.