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As I've noted in the post The Memento Syndrome: Humanity's Short-Term Memory, we tend to think that anything that's relatively new in our lifetime, has never happened before. So this quote from John Quincy Adams on Islam, is revealing. From The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) by Robert Spencer, page 83:
John Quincy Adams on Islam:
"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, [.....] Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST.- TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.... Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant ... While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men."
(Capitals are in the original -- the boldfacing has been added for this blog post.)
The behavior of radical Islamist terrorists has nothing to do with Iraq or Israel. It's been going on since the seventh century.
Update 8-23-06: Commenter A.M. Whittaker posts the following quote about Islam:
Winston Churchill on Islam:
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
-- Sir Winston Spencer Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).
Page 1 of 3 pages of comments for this article.
#2This is fascinating, Mike. I'm going to post about it later this week.
#3Mike Z, the article quoting you is posted.
#4Why does nobody ever mention that Mohammed himself ordered the assassination of several poets who mocked him? (Like Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf,Asma Bint Marwan, Abu Afak ...etc)
I think that is pretty significant in the current context.
#5This site is full of conservative losers: Allah Akbar bitches
#6"Komani" appears to be an example of what this post is discussing.
#7>
Too funny. And too true.
But let's face it. Those of us who identify ourselves as disciples of Jesus have not always been "little Christs", as the term "Christian" means. People claiming to live under that banner have killed many, including Jews, Indians, etc.
Now I am in no way equating Christianity to the maniacal nonsense we're seeing in the middle east or at the recent protests at the college at Irvine. People can say whatever they want about Christians, and we don't start setting our cities on fire. But we need to acknowledge that those of us who live under the Cross are not always the best examples of what Jesus was trying to say or do, either.
I once had a Muslim call me, a born again believer, "brother". Just like it's wrong for the far left to equate all Christians with the loons of the past, it is also wrong to assume that all Muslims are hateful, dangerous people.
However, the college students at Irvine are obviously hypocrites in the extreme. That Islam has a very vocal, radical element would be foolish to deny.
That being said, I think that Islam has historically been spread through extreme violence has been well established. You've inspired me to want to investigate the history described here a bit further. All the more knowledge to shut my far left buds up.
#8Thanks very much, pootie tang. I really appreciate it.
#9Thank YOU Vik, for a great web site.
#10This explains why you see far fewer black women converting to Islam than black men. On some level they realize that to do so would be volunteering to become a slave. neil
#11When did JQA say this anyone know?
#12Flipside, the book in which Churchill said it, was published in 1899.
#13flipside,
Here is a comment from Andrew G. Bostom which appeared on frontpage.com. There are a lot of references here.
#14Salaam Walaykum. Peace be upon you. This is how muslims greet each other. This is how Jesus (peace be upon him) greeted his companions. I am a convert from Christianity to Islam. Like P. Tang said, I have always been taught through Islam that we refer to jews and christians as "brother". In Islam we are taught that everyone else is your equal. Either our equal as muslims or our equal as in humanity. Well, just thought I'd say some kind words as Islam teaches me to do. I can't stop the bad things that are said about my religion and I can't stop the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam. (But I am encouraged to try, for sure) I thank God (Allah) for my beloved country America with its freedoms where I can worship God a little differently than my muslim brothers and not worry about being harrassed or injured because of it. Take care.
#15Cain also referred to Abel as brother.
#16The world has enough pessimists whitaker. hope i spelled that right.
#17I'm a realist.
#18that's good., shall i quote bible verses for quincy adams that promote warfare? jihad? I could quote new or old testament showing that god commanded his believers to kill every living thing, man woman and child. Even Jesus (peace be upon him) had some very harsh words about how he wigh that he already destroyed the people around him. anywayz........
#19Chucky, you posted:
I can’t stop the bad things that are said about my religion and I can’t stop the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam. (But I am encouraged to try, for sure)
You say you can try, but I don't see you trying. Instead of protesting loudly against the murders committed all over the world on an almost daily basis by your co-religionists who say they are acting in the name of Islam and on the instructions of the Koran, you immediately go into attacking the Judeo-Christian tradition. This is just like so many Islamists, who say they are trying to do something about "the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam," but then don't back it up with their actions.
I dare you to write a long post here telling Muslims that all the verses in the Koran that demand the killing of Christians and Jews are out of date, that following them is evil, and that any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, restaurant, market place, or other public place, is not going to paradise.
#20You don't see me trying?????????? You have no clue who i am or what i do?????????? o.k. i'll read the rest of your post now
#21Muslims, verses in the quran often are referring to a specific time and/or event during our beloved Prophet's(pbuh&hf;) lifetime. Obviously!! For example, a jew or christian tribe breaks a treaty made with the muslims and try to kill the prophet (pbuh&hf;), what do you expect the muslims to do? Any muslim that kills an innocent person is not guaranteed paradise! The quran tells us that if one innocent person is killed, it's as if you have killed all of humanity! Furthermore, dear friend, do you think muslims are suppose to kill jews and christians? That's not true and makes no sense. Besides muslim women, a muslim man can only also marry a jew or a christian woman!! Imagine, you think muslims are instructed to marry a jew or christian, and then instructed to kill them!!?? Nonsense!!
As for me mentioning judeo-christian verses, that's to combat the relentless attack on Islam by the media. If you want to say oh islam says this, islam says that, why can't i say oh yeah, judaism says this and islam says that. You have a typical attitude that the world revolves around you only.
#22I'm not sure of your reference to Jesus concerning destroying the people around him. Is that the true Jesus of the Bible, or the one in the Qu'ran?
Consider this; 1 Peter 2:23
#23Look at that - your supposed exhortation to Muslims to stop killing Christians and Jews in the name of Islam, includes a justification for such killing, and an incitement to such killing:
For example, a jew or christian tribe breaks a treaty made with the muslims and try to kill the prophet (pbuh&hf;), what do you expect the muslims to do?
I dared you to state that "any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, restaurant, market place, or other public place, is not going to paradise," and all you could say was that they were not "guaranteed" of going to paradise.
That is pathetic.
#24o.k., mr. darer. you say "any muslim who blows up a bus...is not going to paradise". You didn't say innocent people were killed.!!! So if its military on a bus....it's o.k., but public place= not o.k.!!! So, when i said if a muslim kills an innocent person, it's as if he killed all of humanity, that's God's way of saying (bad, no no, don't do that, killing all of humanity is not good...........NOT GOING TO PARADISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) iS THAT better for you?
#25The interpretation you offer of that verse from the Koran, is a well-known fake-out. I posted about this just last month: "Does the Koran Really Say that To Kill One Man is To Kill All Mankind?".
You say "public place= not o.k.", but that's a half-sentence, a phrase, that leaves a wide range of interpretations of what you might mean.
I dared you to say that “any Muslim who blows up a bus, train station, restaurant, market place, or other public place, is not going to paradise,” and you refused to do it. Instead you want to talk about how it's okay in Islam to kill people who Islam doesn't consider "innocent."
The Islamists who blow up buses, trains, planes, restaurants, etc. believe that anyone who isn't a Muslim is not innocent.
Here you are, spending all your time on this forum arguing against me, instead of against your co-religionists who believe it is their duty to kill Christians and Jews.
As I said in #19, "This is just like so many Islamists, who say they are trying to do something about 'the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam,' but then don’t back it up with their actions."
#26You say I'm on here wasting time with you and not talking to muslims. Then, why would you ask me to make a statement ON HERE to muslims!!!??? Wiggle your way around that one now. You tell me to make a statemnet to muslims on here, so i assume you know that muslims read this, so I am not wasting time, and i am talking to my fellow muslims
I say kill innocent equals hell, and all you do is try to twist it like an attorney. you rock
I will get the quran verse for you......and bible verses if i have time.
#27I want you to make a statement here to Muslims. So far, you're not making it.
I say kill innocent equals hell
Sure. But the Muslims who blow up public places believe that Christians and Jews aren't innocent. So you're just supporting your co-religionists who blow up public places.
The Koran verse is already quoted in the post I linked in #25.
#28Well let me just do exactly what you say master.
more sarcasm........congratulations on finishing your 8 years of advanced Islamic studies in Qum, Iran! I doubt that you are knowledgable about explanation of Quran.
There are muslims who blow up innocent xtian/jews, probably. Yet, they think the victims are not innocent. yes. you are correct. Pretty well covered in the western media.
You said, "So you’re just supporting your co-religionists who blow up public places." Wow that's so intellectual of you! I guess your right. I better go hide in a cave somewhere and suppress women there.
#29To Chukee.
"in the koran the law says that mohammed is the best example of behavior for you. Marry 9yr olds (Aisha) Beat your wife (Quran 4:34) fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them(Quran9:5)... What an Example. The bible verses you talk about that have violence in them are Descriptive, The Korans are Prescriptive. Big difference!
#30Nice knowing you all. I see what u guys are interested in. Good luck in life. nef you will beg on the day of judgement that you could have been able to love prophet muhammad (pbuh&hf;) and benefit from him. unsubscribe me please.
#31Chuck, you started out by saying "I have always been taught through Islam that we refer to jews and christians as 'brother'," and you finished by saying that anyone who doesn't love mohammed is going to be punished on the day of judgment. It appears that your initial statement did not fully convey your views.
#32Chuckeee.
WOW...I really need to get in this...Chuckeee, let me first suggest you chcuk your religion for one that is consistent since 30 ad. Jesus` main message was love.
Now lets talk about the false prophet. Mohammad was a pedophile. The Koran says it and Muslims do not deny it. Muslims say he only married the 9 year old for financial reasons. Lets say a man marries a 9 y/o today, I think he would be given life in prison...even if he didn't have sex with her.
Your religion is bankrupt. Yes, Christianity has had its dark days, but lets not blame the religion as much as the catholic church. All the blood shed in the name of religion by Christians has been refuted as non-Christian. Islam, however, does not come out and categorically state that killing PERIOD is bad. You even say that killing military men are ok. I tell you this, the only reason Islam has spread in the Arab world is because Arabs could not accept a peaceful messiah. They wanted blood, as the bible states, an unruly and unlawful people.
I find it amazing that one year ago on September 14th the Pope mis-spoke and offended Islam and that ALL of Islam raised up in arms demanding an aplogy...though all over the world Muslims offend Jesus Christ and Christians and never once extend an apology.
In Islam, the term innocent is not placed on infidels, or non-believers. Therefor in Islam it is okay to kill non-believers.
Again, Islam is morally bankrupt.
#33Hey dimbo. You seem a little excited to see me.
#34Vik, for balance heres another Winston Churchill quote - "Terrorist Jews.
In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary"
#35Sean, there seems to be some question as to whether Churchill actually wrote this.
But, assuming he did, you left out a key part of the article you quoted:
We owe to the Jews in the Christian revelation a system of ethics which, even if it were entirely separated from the supernatural, would be incomparably the most precious possession of mankind, worth in fact the fruits of all other wisdom and learning put together. On that system and by that faith there has been built out of the wreck of the Roman Empire the whole of our existing civilization.
So the author of this article found the contributions of the Jewish faith to be "incomparably the most precious possession of mankind, worth in fact the fruits of all other wisdom and learning put together."
Contrast this to Churchill's views, quoted above, of Islam, that "No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."
#36Charles wrote: Salaam Walaykum. Peace be upon you. This is how muslims greet each other. This is how Jesus (peace be upon him) greeted his companions. I am a convert from Christianity to Islam. Like P. Tang said, I have always been taught through Islam that we refer to jews and christians as “brother”. In Islam we are taught that everyone else is your equal. Either our equal as muslims or our equal as in humanity. Well, just thought I’d say some kind words as Islam teaches me to do. I can’t stop the bad things that are said about my religion and I can’t stop the bad things muslims do in the name of Islam. (But I am encouraged to try, for sure) I thank God (Allah) for my beloved country America with its freedoms where I can worship God a little differently than my muslim brothers and not worry about being harrassed or injured because of it. Take care.
Charles, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with someone who practiced his beliefs the way you appear to be doing. But you have got to be aware that 99% of the terrorism in the world today is driven by people who identify themselves as Muslims. And I believe the folks here are trying to determine the motives behind those loons.
#37Of course the fact that Adams only had access to a translation of the Qur'an that had been erroneously, and purposefully translated by who else, those loving and truth seeking Christians, too elicit just that kind of an opinion would not have anything to do with what Adams thought would it. No, of course not!
As for the Churchill quote, most likely the fundies are just lying about that. That's what they normally do when something doesn’t fit in with their belief system or rendition of history.
#38Of course the fact that Adams only had access to a translation of the Qur’an that had been erroneously, and purposefully translated by who else, those loving and truth seeking Christians, too elicit just that kind of an opinion would not have anything to do with what Adams thought would it.
r. connors, please provide a link to back up this assertion.
#39'r. connors, please provide a link to back up this assertion.
I have a better idea. Why don't you get up off your butt and go look it up. You might actually learn something about the world and how it works.
#40It appears that you don't have a link to back up your assertion. Could it be that you made it up?
#41Really Connors, what's with the Christian-bashing? Is it amazing to anyone else here how the Christophobes out there can condemn Christians as the dangerous fundamentalists, yet ignore those who've actually slammed planes into skyscrapers or blown themselves up because THEIR sect of Islam was better than that of the people they took with them?
Geez man, get your head out of the clouds and THINK. WE are NOT your enemy. We certainly have ideological disagreements, but the vast majority of us who identify ourselves as "Christian" have no desire to physically harm you. The Islamo-fascists, however, have repeatedly and spectacularly demonstrated their bloodlust because of their complete, total inability to accept anyone with a different worldview.
Bro, in a nation where Christianity's still the dominant religion, your right to be an atheist, a Buddhist or a Wiccan is protected. Do you honestly believe that those whom you defend are nearly so tolerant? Try going to Saudi Arabia or Iran with your attitudes. THEN you will no what radical fundamentalism really is.
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools..."
#42Errors...
In my first paragraph, I should have said "...because THEIR belief system was better than that of the people they took with them?"
And "no" = "know". Silly me.
#43Well said, Keith!
#44"Is it amazing to anyone else here how the Christophobes out there can condemn Christians as the dangerous fundamentalists"
Keith,
I am not condemning all Christians, just fundamentalist Christians. Having grown up in a fundamentalist Christian home and church I do have some real understanding of what they are. As for Christians other than fundamentalist I have no problem with them as they have a complete and legitimate right to practice their religion in whatever manner they wish, assuming it is within the scope of the law. Or at least they previously did have back when the Constitution was still in effect. I may have ideological and theological differences of opinion with them but I don't have a problem with them as a people or religious enity.
"yet ignore those who’ve actually slammed planes into skyscrapers or blown themselves up because THEIR sect of Islam was better than that of the people they took with them?"
I do not ignore these kinds of people at all. In fact I have been paying very close attention to them for the last 30 years which, incidentally, it would have been nice if our government had been doing the same. Apparently though they had other things to they needed to attend to.
So it did not surprise me at all when Sept. 11th came. The thing that did surprise me though was:
1) People were surprised that it happened as the writing had been on the wall for well over 25 years.
2) That it had taken so long to happen which would appear to state that the people behind these attacks have limited resources to work with. Which would seem to be supported by the fact that their primary focus is in raising money through the various assorted fronts they have throughout the world that masquerade as charities.
"the vast majority of us who identify ourselves as “Christian” have no desire to physically harm you."
While you might be technically correct that even fundamentalist Christians may have no intent to harm me physically, the result of their actions do in fact bring great harm to our Republic. (Just as a side note America is in fact a Republic, not a democracy as has been commonly touted for the last 50 years or so) but I stray for the main subject.
The harm that they bring to the country is a result of their ignorance which you seem to demonstrate in you next sentence. So, while their intents may be honorable, although with many fundamentalist that could be debated, the result of their actions is not. Remember, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
"The Islamo-fascists, however, have repeatedly and spectacularly demonstrated their bloodlust because of their complete, total inability to accept anyone with a different worldview."
Now just what the hell is Islam-Fascism? Would you please explain to me what, as a political ideology and functional system it is? I will not hold my breath in anticipation of you response because the fact is you can't because no such thing exists. It is simply another tool by the Bush regime to instill more fear in the population aimed at those who can be lead around by the nose with simplistic binary platitudes. The real world fact is no such thing exists.
But too the fundamentalist, suffering from a lack of education in history, political science, philosophy, theology, economics and logic, and bound exclusively to binary reasoning it is easily interpreted as bad. The reasoning process goes something like this.
Islamo = Islam, which is bad and fascist = that is what Hitler was, so that is bad, so the resultant conclusion is that Islamo-fascism = Bad Bad. I would challenge any Christian fundamentalist to explain what fascism is beyond what they can explain with copy and paste.
Instead they support a regime that has taken over the country which is in fact fascist and can be readily shown to such. That is what I really have against fundamentalist.
“Bro, in a nation where Christianity’s still the dominant religion, your right to be an atheist, a Buddhist or a Wiccan is protected.”
Really? Keith, for one, I ain’t your bro. And two, when was the last time a Buddhist, atheist, Wiccan, or Jew for that matter, got elected to the office of the President or for any political office. And fundamentalist even got an opportunity to show their legendary tolerance for the religion of others with the election of Ellison of Minnosota, a Muslim, in the last election. Yeah boy, that was a sterling display of tolerance. I surprised the guys not dead.
“Do you honestly believe that those whom you defend are nearly so tolerant? Try going to Saudi Arabia or Iran with your attitudes. THEN you will no what radical fundamentalism really is.”
Oh, I have no doubts that those countries are very rigid authoritarian regimes, but to say they are based on Islam and the Qur’an is to display a complete lack of understanding of either.
#45Part I
Thoughtful, but misguided post, Mr. Connors. I shall elaborate.
You wrote: "While you might be technically correct that even fundamentalist Christians may have no intent to harm me physically, the result of their actions do in fact bring great harm to our Republic."
Please specify. Or is it our collective "ignorance"?
"(Just as a side note America is in fact a Republic, not a democracy as has been commonly touted for the last 50 years or so) but I stray for the main subject."
Thank you, but I know this.
"The harm that they bring to the country is a result of their ignorance which you seem to demonstrate in you next sentence...Now just what the hell is Islam-Fascism? Would you please explain to me what, as a political ideology and functional system it is? I will not hold my breath in anticipation of you response because the fact is you can’t because no such thing exists."
You could have held your breath. Really, this statement stuns me in light of your previous paragraphs in which you explained your vivid understanding of the threat we face.
"It is simply another tool by the Bush regime to instill more fear in the population aimed at those who can be lead around by the nose with simplistic binary platitudes. The real world fact is no such thing exists."
Ummm... then please explain to me this statement:
"So it did not surprise me at all when Sept. 11th came. The thing that did surprise me though was:
1) People were surprised that it happened as the writing had been on the wall for well over 25 years.
2) That it had taken so long to happen which would appear to state that the people behind these attacks have limited resources to work with. Which would seem to be supported by the fact that their primary focus is in raising money through the various assorted fronts they have throughout the world that masquerade as charities."
There seems to be a contradiction here. Did I miss something? First you say the writing's on the wall, then it's just fear-mongering.
"But too the fundamentalist, suffering from a lack of education in history, political science, philosophy, theology, economics and logic, and bound exclusively to binary reasoning it is easily interpreted as bad. The reasoning process goes something like this. Islamo = Islam, which is bad and fascist = that is what Hitler was, so that is bad, so the resultant conclusion is that Islamo-fascism = Bad Bad. I would challenge any Christian fundamentalist to explain what fascism is beyond what they can explain with copy and paste.
Connors, this statement's absurd, with all due respect to you. This "fundamentalist" Christian defines Islamo-fascism this way:
The ideology we are battling is based on an extreme (and perhaps warped?) interpretation of the Koran. Hence "Islamo". Fascism is an authoritarian system where only the government's (or dictator's) ideology and propaganda are tolerated. Freedom of thought and speech and religion are extinguished. Exactly how does this fail to describe the loons this country is battling today?
You've ignorantly implied that I am misinformed. Might I direct you to look something up that would, in greater detail, back up my assertion? If you're so inclined (and you really should be), you ought to check out "In the Shade of the Koran", by Sayyid Qtub (considered the "father" of modern Islamic terrorism by the author -- I'm sorry, should I not have used the word "Islamic"?). A preliminary review by NY Times columnist Paul Berman in 2003 revealed that this man's basic cure for the ills of human civilization is the establishment of a global Taliban. THIS is the philosophy of the people we are fighting. They want nothing but their religion and their interpretation of it. No fear mongering. No Muslim-bashing. Just pure fact. If you don't see this as Islamo-fascism then I'm not sure what else to say to you.
#46Part II
"Instead they support a regime that has taken over the country which is in fact fascist and can be readily shown to such. That is what I really have against fundamentalist."
Not sure where you're going with this. Are you referring to the Bush administration? How, exactly, can you say that WE are a fascist state but that Islamic fanatics are not fascists? Geez man.
Wire-tapping phone calls to Saudi Arabia is hardly fascist. But it does make perfect sense.
The PATRIOT Act does have some elements I question, but I know of no incident of anyone's civil rights being violated as of now. Secondly, in WWII things were worse under Roosevelt, and our nation's freedoms survived.
Umm... would I be too presumptuous to assume that you regard water-boarding as torture?
“'Bro, in a nation where Christianity’s still the dominant religion, your right to be an atheist, a Buddhist or a Wiccan is protected.'
"Really? Keith, for one, I ain’t your bro."
Um, okay. As you wish.
"And two, when was the last time a Buddhist, atheist, Wiccan, or Jew for that matter, got elected to the office of the President or for any political office."
I didn't realize that not getting elected to a public office was a violation of a person's civil rights, altho you have forgotten all about Joseph Lieberman.
"And fundamentalist even got an opportunity to show their legendary tolerance for the religion of others with the election of Ellison of Minnosota, a Muslim, in the last election. Yeah boy, that was a sterling display of tolerance. I surprised the guys not dead."
Uh, yeah. Sure man. Look, people get nervous when someone who claims for himself the religion of a dangerous enemy of the State and then also criticizes the government for fighting that enemy. I don't want to constellate, but I have to question where this man's loyalties truly lie.
And again, you contradict yourself. First you acknowledge that Christians don't want to harm you, but then we're so inclined to violence that it's surprising we haven't taken out Ellison.
“Oh, I have no doubts that those countries are very rigid authoritarian regimes, but to say they are based on Islam and the Qur’an is to display a complete lack of understanding of either."
Okay. I have never lived in those countries. But really, is that the point? They do not like Christians and Jews, even our "friends" the Saudis. Our beliefs are not tolerated in that part of the world. Islam, however, is.
That you appear to be more worried about us than Osama and co. is simply stunning. I'll grant you that fanatical Christians are no fun and, more seriously, could be dangerous if they got any real power. But ANY fanatic would be dangerous with power. The fanatics who attacked us 6 years ago have shown that they present a far greater and more immediate danger than anyone claiming to identify with the cross. Sorry but your posts, so far, indicate anti-Christian bigotry.
#47"Sorry but your posts, so far, indicate anti-Christian bigotry."
No, they indicate a complete disdain for Christian Fascism. Apparently, that is beyond your grasp.
#48"No, they indicate a complete disdain for Christian Fascism. Apparently, that is beyond your grasp."
As Islamo-fascism is beyond yours. And for this there is a reason: your disdain for Christians has skewed your perspective. You're looking for any rationale to back up your desired contention that Christians need to be stopped. Hence there is no Islamo-fascism, just Christo-fascism. Islamic extremists are to be feared, sure, but Christians in the United States are the real danger to our freedoms and American way of life. And this would appear to be the reason for your overly simplistic response to a rather involved post from me.
This position is not based on logic or facts. It is based on emotion. I've worked with people like you. Several, in fact. Their position is hateful, irrational and inconsistent. But they cling to it nonetheless.
What your reasons are for this I can not say for certain without getting to know you. But I can think of two possibilities: bad childhood/familial experiences with overly rigid parents; and a hatred for the message that humans aren't their own god, but rather that they need a God to reach down and save them. Of course you may have reasons I've never considered before.
But however strongly you feel what you do and for whatever your reasons, your angst is dangerously misguided. Because while we continue to fight the wrong enemy (Democrats vs Republicans, Conservatives vs Liberals, Latin Americans vs Blacks vs Whites, etc.), the demonic ideology and hatred of Islamo-fascism is just waiting for us to crack so they can cause even greater damage. I mean, look at how much we're fighting amongst ourselves since 9/11? I've never seen it this badly before. Perhaps the Civil War was the only time it was worse? Historians out there can correct me if I'm wrong. But they didn't have to do much and we're cracking and fracturing.
Their attacks seem to have finally revealed some severe issues that have been hidden for so long in our society. And we'd better solve these issues and unite or we're gonna have a really unpleasant 21st century.
#49"While you might be technically correct that even fundamentalist Christians may have no intent to harm me physically, the result of their actions do in fact bring great harm to our Republic."
This is one bigoted diatribe my friend, oh sorry i'm probably not your friend, just like keith is not your bro!
Let me quote one of our founding fathers of our great Republic what are you going to next R. Connors? Our founding fathers bring great harm too.....
Benjamin Franklin: 1787
"I have lived, sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more
convincing proofs I see of this truth, that god governs in the affairs
fo men! and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice,
is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been
assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that except the lord build the
house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I
also believe that without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this
political building no better than the builders of Babel: we shall be
divided by our little partial local interests, our projects will be
confounded and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to
future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this
unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom, and
leave it to chance, war and conquest."
Here is another quote from, founding father William Williams
"If a man could not swear allegiance to
Christianity, then he should not be in
government. "
quotes like these i hope will elucidate the matter that our founding fathers were Christian fundementalists. The kind of Christians you like to hate Connors,
"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."
-Justice William O. Douglas
"It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour"
George Washington Oct. 3rd 1789
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams 2nd president of the United States.
get the drift Connors. Christianity is our Culture, Something to be proud of by all Freedom loving Americans. If you want to be an Atheist or budhist or any other religion by all means that is what our Christian Forefathers set out to create, a free Republic, with the promise of Religious tolerance. But please don't trample on Christianity and try to stifle the free practice of it. Our government promised Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion!!!!!!!!!
God Bless
#50Nef, thanks for this excellent post.
#51This makes me wonder: it almost sounds like a de facto theocracy was intended for this country.
Also, were there any founders who deviated from the philosophies expressed in the above quotes?
#52To Keith: Yes there were founders who deviated from the philosophies expressed , however one has to understand the moral climate of the times, before making suppositions such as, "de facto theocracy".
In America today the moral fiber that is holding this country together seemingly by a thread, is just the residue of a once strong and robust cord of profuond piety that was widely prevalent in America.
A theocracy is a country ruled by preists in the name of God. Sounds like you are talking about The Republic of Iran not America. If you can't make this simple distintion than you missed the point of my previous post!
Ps. You are welcome Vik
#53nef...
Lighten up! I was just asking. Sheesh.
I do understand that the founders wanted Christianity to be the religion of the country because the people then would be able to more properly police themselves. I get it (and agree with it). But it could be argued that they were promoting religious bigotry and discrimination by more liberal folks.
#54keith sorry didnt mean to come off in bad way.
#55Aww shucks. It's okay.
#56so u want to know the truth
take it from a muslim
http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/
may seconds change your rest life from fire to paradise....
#57Global, totalitarian theocracy. "...dictatorship of the world" was the one quote that most stood out for me. Thanks mohammed ali for pointing us to that. Because if that doesn't back up the point we're trying to make here, nothing does.
BTW, something that may or may not be related to this, is the Book of the Revelation, in which a global authoritarianism develops under a leader called "the Beast", and its chief objects of hatred are the Jews and the Christians. Coincidence? Perhaps. Or maybe not. I do know that you guys are waiting for some great Islamic leader to assume global control -- the Imad Mahdi, or something along those lines? I also learned that at least one Palestinian terrorist-turned-Christian cited that the "666" symbol in that same Biblical book is actually a misreading of Arabic characters which stand for something like "God Is Great" (I do not have the details of this guy's book readily at hand, unfortunately). The exact translation/meaning of the phrase escapes me, but these characters are, apparently, tatooed on the foreheads of some Palestinian militants. The mark of the Beast will be applied to the right hand or forehead. Again, coincidence? Maybe. Only time will tell for sure, but it is unnerving.
#58Benazir Bhutto was killed today, Another Prime example of the Mohmetan Legacy!
John Quincy Adams " While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet (Mohamed) shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.”
Days before national election... That's what Islam wants for the world. Wake up America! Dar al-Harb vs. Dar al-Islam. It's written out for everyone in there own words. The Koran and the Hadiths explain it very lucidly.
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
Islam is a CULT OF HATE AND DEATH. An Ideology that paints itself as a religion of peace!
STEP: 1 for dealing with Islamofascism is Recognizing the Problem.
#59One thing: we don't know that Islamo-fascists killed Bhutto. Or do we? I've heard nothing yet on that. It could easily have been Musharraf, her political rival. Either way, indicative of the ends-justifies-the-means mentality that these peaceful and merciful Muslims seem to embrace.
(But in all fairness, my grandfather was Muslim and he was no radical. I also once had a Muslim call me "brother". So they ain't all into this psycho nonsense.)
#60Keith no need to be naive, who do you think killed 140 people last month. In the previously botched assassination attempt against Bhutto? Peaceful Muslims? Islam kills haven't you gotten used to it yet? It's on the headlines every day. Death has been on the Headlines for 1500 years since Mohammad declared Jihad on all Infidels. Just read a history book on the subject. Once one sees Islam as what it really is, an Ideology. Then you can start making sense out of all of this Jihad , and Islamofascism nonsense. There are alot of good German citizens in the world with Grandparents who were Nazis. Do you think they are saying that "Nazis aren't all that bad"!
Oh and about your comment "I also once had a Muslim call me "brother"
Don't forget it was Cain who killed Able.
Dave Hunt writes:
"Though people of good will naturally recoil from attaching blame to a major world religion itself, we can no longer afford such sentimentality. No longer dare we allow Islam to escape its undeniable responsibility. Yet former President Bush called Islam a peace-loving religion. he devastating acts of war by Islamic terrorists against the United States were greeted by naive statements from well-intentioned government leaders to the effect that we must distinguish between terrorism perpetrated by extremist groups and Islam itself which is peaceful...Several years ago Steven Emerson produced for PBS an excellent video titled Jihad In America. Its cameras went directly inside cell groups associated with mosques here in America where eager young Muslims were being recruited for jihad against the United States. Muslim leaders are shown giving speeches about bringing America to its knees through terrorism.... terrorists act in direct obedience to Muhammad, the Qur'an, Allah and Islam. While nominal Muslims reject the idea, all Islamic scholars agree that it is the religious duty of every Muslim to use violence whenever possible to spread Islam until it has taken over the world...There is a natural reluctance to accept any statement which seems to be a prejudiced attack upon a world religion. It is the fear of such prejudice which prevents the world from facing the truth." (Berean Call, Sept.19, 2001)
#61I want to appologize for comparing your Muslim grandfather with Nazis. All i'm really trying to get at is the similiarities in Ideologies. Communism has killed millions, Nazism has killed millions, Fascism has killed millions. Islam Has killed millions.
Recognize a Pattern here? Even if you are a peaceful Muslim, the Koran tells another tale!
“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)
And that is the reason we are dealing with Terrorism.
and before you make the apologetical rebuttal about not all terrorists are muslims, 99% of terrorism is committed by muslims. So that is a mute point. Terrorists are only acting out exactly how the koran commands them to act!
“Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)
#62@ mohammed ali, #56, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a public train, plane, bus, or restaurant, does not go to paradise?
#63nef...
I am glad that you apologized for your implications about my grandfather. That was most certainly over the top.
As for your comment that Muslims have killed millions, I will not deny that most terrorism in the world today is committed by people who identify with Islam. But that doesn't mean that everyone who identifies with Islam is a murderer or potential murderer.
Now what I will grant you is this, and muhammed ali should respond to this --- why is it that instead of regret for and protest against extremism from the American Muslim community, all we get are complaints that they're being treated unfairly and that they should have public foot baths?? THAT is something I'd like an answer to and if anything makes me question the not-all-Muslims-are-terrorists theory, that does. Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of the CAIRs of the world.
#64Peace be on all of you
saying All muslims are Terrorists is similar to saying .. all Christians belong to the Third Right ... as Chirstianity specially the Passion of Christ was being made popular during Hitler's Evil Reign over Germany that lead to the Murder of many Innocent Jews ..
or saying that All Jews are communists just as Marx was a the sun of a Rabbai and a jew
stereotyping is the worst of the evils in this world right now
and as for winston chirchil .. well ... id say he never understood Islam , where women donot Belong to a man .. but share a mutaul Bond of love and care .. were men are the providers of food shelter and clothing and for women ... and women can work provide for themselves but from the woman's wealth men have no share
a widow or a divorced women can herself go up to a man and say "I want to marry you" thats her legal right in islam
upon divorce the children will be the responsibility of the man and the man has to take care of them .. if the women wished to keep her children then he has to provide for their schooling , and food and clothing and home and for the woman as long as she takes care of the children
The property owned by a man has a share for his wife and his daughters and sons but a property owned by a woman belongs to her alone , thats islamic Law
Women 1400 years ago Under Islam had the right to vote for their leader, where the west saw this just a couple of centuries ago
where are a single old woman stood up and opposed the Caliph saying that your judgment is wrong and against islam .. the caliph accepted his folly and said that the woman had understod islam and he has not
where the rights of your Mother come second to God
where you mother deserver 2/3rd of your love and respect as compared to your father
where the daughter has the right to suckle her mother untill 2 years of age and the son only 1.5 years
where woman can be doctors , can be fighters, can run bussiness, can be administrators
but are not allowed jobs that could give men ability to manipulate them
where saying peace on you , is considered a great reward but a women is exempted from it if she feels like not to say it to a unknown person
where woman are exempted from Prayers during their mensis but dont have to cover up for the prayers lost.. but men dying or sick have to pray
where woman are exempted from fasts during pregnency and even while they suckle their children
where a adulter woman cannot be punshed not kept under arrest untill she has not given birth to her child and then the child has passed the age of suckling and has reached an age when the child can take care of itself
on the other hand there are no such quarters for men
men are obliged to fight in times of war.. for women its optional
Islam was the first religion to give the women the right to demand divorce for reasons other then adultery where as its not so in chirstianity
where its said... "Heaven lies in the feet of your mother"
.... "you and your wealth belong to your parents"
..... "never even say .. ufff.... to your parents even if they are non-muslims or they are cruel to you"
..."You and your spouse are like clothing to each other"
..."be gentle towards women"
..."if you find them getting sexually indecent .. scare them by a striking action"
..."never hit them on the face .. hit them on the back but littly not to cause injury but to show your anger (incase of sexualy indecency)"
..." "
#65so think, see and learn ...
as one of your most famous leaders said
"Donot follow the band wagon when every one is"
(Abraham lincon)
:) ... and may peace be on all of you
#66anonymous,
What are your views on so-called honor killings of women by members of their own families?
#67that is forbiden and is not rooted in Islam ..
Islamic Law for Killing or Capital Punishment is somewhat as follows
No one cann be Killed but for Adultery or as Punishment for Un-just Killing
(i say Unjust since the act of Capital Punishment or death scentence is also killing but is justified when given for Murder, and killing of Traitors to state , killing of a enemy combatents during War or Battle)
the Act of Carrying out the Death scentence and the Scentencing of the Death Penalty is the Sole responsibilty and Right of the State and no indavidual can carry out this act.
so if any one does otherwise is himself/herself a murderer... even if they killed a someone for comminting adultery or killed someone coz he/she killed his or her father or mother and so on...
....
just for your Information ... Honor Killing is not just limited to Women , men have also been a target of Honor killings , the roots of this is in the Local Traditions of South asian Countries and date back to pre-islamic times in south Asia .. and have never been a part of Islam
Traditions other then honor killings include
1. Sati- burning of the Widow with the husbands body (Hinduism)
2. Denying the right for a Divorcey or a Widow to marry (hinduism)
3. Marrying women against their will (hinduism)
4. Dowry by the Womans family to the man's (local Traditions contrary to islamic tradition where the man gives the dowry to the woman)
and so forth...
#68Fighting about who's right and who's wrong between Christians and Islam is just plain silly. Can't you people see that we (the public of the world) have been conditioned to become racist against one another? Islam-facists & Christo-facists? There are both, yes. They are the ones the rest of us call "fools".
There's a reason why there is a suggestive racism between the two groups, there's a reason why "some" want us to hate each other. Can't you see that? Did 9/11's hoax not teach us ANYTHING? And anyone who buys into it, isn't thinking on their own. If you can't see past the flags, television news, holy books, gender and color of one's skin, don't you dare claim to be violent-less because your words and outlook are harmful. Its these same racists that are going to vote in our next black/woman/Christian President! This is the most racist candidate race I've ever witnessed!
Stop watching MAINSTREAM PEOPLE! THEY WANT US TO HATE EACH OTHER!!!!
(And if you don't want to be killed by radical Islams...then stay away from their territories! If you don't want your hand bitten, then don't put it in the hungry dog's mouth! And as for radical-Christians....well....show me those groups that constantly kill in the name of Jesus Christ. Last time I checked, America is a choice vacation spot for others around the world, which must mean its pretty safe to visit.)
Don't shoot the Messenger.
Why should be peace be upon an evil prophet who destroyed the peace of others. THis is plain hypocrisy and is dangerous. Had that evil been alive today he would have been in handed death sentence or would be hiding in some gutter hole.
#70and how many were murdered in cold blood .. by the Prophet or by his hand peace and Blessing of God be Upon him ...
and how many were murdered in cold blood by the Jewish Prophets during their war against the Infidels and the idolators... may Peace and blessings of God be upon them
and who were the people who had the head of John the Baptist presented on a platter and are accused of Crucifing Jesus may Peace and Blessings of God the Almighty be Upon both John the Baptist .. and Jesus the Christ and True Massiah???
#71Islam means evil at heart. Women are nothing but pure sex objects tied inside a burqa and enjoyed whenever Allah's monster want it. Shame on Islam
#72Peace be upon ... is just another way of calling for or acknowledging the person's submission to Islam. Westerners should not be deceived. Muslims don't mean it in the same way that westerners do.
When they've said it to me, I simply reply: and may the liberties of western civilization be upon you. I've seen the look in the eye of several after that reply, and we both knew in an instant and unspoken way where each stood in the battle of our times.
#73Yes the whole problem is submission to Evil Prophet's Evil Verses. Where is then the question of peace? Murder, lust and loot are the goodies the prophet is urging upon his faithfuls to practice!
#74i wonder if you have ever seen A Muslim one of those Fanatic ones.. one of those that you hate.. ever hating you back ..
ever saying i'll of any of the Prophets ..
ever read a muslim published or Muslim written book that curses JEsus PEACE BE UPON HIM .. or MOSES PEACE BE UPON HIM ..
ever seen their depictions or even good religiously made pictures in any Muslim News Paper...
Ever Hear a Muslim say I;ll to Yahweh or Jehova or God.. all are but One .. and He is the True Living God.. and JEsus and Moses and Mohammed Peace be Upon them All were His True Prophets and we are not allowed to Distinguish on who is greater or who is not..
hmm ..But the problem is that you keep avoiding my question ...
my Uestion has been and will remain ... as to what Jews say of the Prophet Jesus WHo was Born to the Blessed marry .. about Home God says in the Quran that he Chose Marry for this Miracle and the Birth of Messiah over all Women of the WOrld those born and those to come... and that he chose the Family of Amron over the Families of the World .. .
what do you Say of the Virgin Mary the Blessed Mary the Women who gave Birth to your Messiah and our Messiah the True Prophet Jesus may God's Blessing be Upon him and his Mother the Pure one.. the Devout of God
and Her Son who was Protected by God against All Evils and against Temptation of Satan .. what say you of Him
#75I know many Muslims who laugh at Allah jokes. The minute anything is uttered about the Evil Prophet they draw the knife.
The evil bastard was like everyone else. He decayed and died. His cruelty touched such a peak that the bastard had to be poisoned by one of his jewess mistress. The evil had plenty of women who were snached after kiling their husbands.
#76.... i am not angery at the Curses that you Utter... these Are Desperate WOrds by a Desperate person .. .
the Same Prophet that you Curse is the same Person who weeped when Romans Lost from the Persians ... for the Christians Belive in the True God and Jesus His True Prophet
the Same Prophet when was Poisoned or atleast Tried by the Jews of Khaibar and many of His Companions Died... asked them why they had done so .. they Reploed .. to Protect Ourselves ... and no harm was done to them ..
and they were resettled in what is Present Day Basra and Kufa
But what i see here is that you Avoide my Question and Keep Cursing angrily .. Keep Swearing .. where i havent Cursed once in my last Many months of Posts.... if Tollerence is the Issue you surely have made it Clear its an Issue with whom...
what i asked you is a simple Question .. i will Willlingly and with Love Die for Jesus Peace Be Upon Him ... i Will Most Dearly give my eyes and my limbs for him ... he is the True Messiah .. the King of the Jews the one Promised by God in the Scriptures... and the One who will Return to Fulfill the Prophisies. ... I Wish he comes Tommorow back on Earth... The True Jesus of Nazarith . the One BOrn of Virgin Birth .. . of the Beloved of God... and a good son to his Poous Mother.. the Virgin Mary who spent her Life in Worship of Lord The True God of Isreal ... and THe Creator of the Heavens and the Earth ..
It is an Article of Faith of Islam to Belive In Jesus ... and it says in the QUran about him in the Chapter Called Mary or the Ture Jewish Name (Mariam) QUran Chapter 19:16-22
AND CALL to mind, through this divine Book, Mary. Lo! She withdrew from her family to an eastern place
and kept herself in seclusion from them, whereupon We sent unto her Our angel of revelation, who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being.
She exclaimed: "Verily, 'I seek refuge from thee with the Most Gracious! [Approach me not] if thou art conscious of Him!"
[The angel] answered: "I' am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, [who says,] `I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.'"
Said she: "How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me? - for, never have I been a loose woman!"
[The angel] answered: "Thus it is; [but] thy Sustainer says, `This is easy for Me; and [thou shalt have a son,] so that We might make him a symbol unto mankind and an act of grace from US. And it was a thing decreed [by God]:
and in time she conceived him, and then she withdrew with him to a far-off place.
What say you Jesus the Son of Mary the Virgin
The Pure and Kind Of Nature and Jesus for Whom God says
3:45 Lo! The angels said: "O Mary! Behold, God sends thee the glad tiding, through a word from Him, [of a son] who shall become known as the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, of great honour in this world and in the life to come, and [shall be] of those who are drawn near unto God.
and
3:55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ
5:46 And We caused Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those [earlier prophets], confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah; and We vouchsafed unto him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious.
What say You Jews of Jesus of Nazreth the True Messiah THe Christ
#77THe LAst Two Verses had HTML tags so im Re-Writing them to remoce the HTML
3:55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ
5:46 And We Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those [earlier prophets], confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah; and We vouchsafed unto him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious.
What say You Jews of Jesus of Nazreth the True Messiah THe Christ
#78ANd Before you ask me a QUestion it is an article of Faith for Muslims to Belive in Moses and the COmmandments Given to Him by Lord God the True GOd ..
and if one belives not in them .. then He seezes to be a Muslim ..
DO answer my QUestion
#79"And two, when was the last time a Buddhist, atheist, Wiccan, or Jew for that matter, got elected to the office of the President or for any political office.”
Over 10 per cent of Congress is Jewish; the total US Jewish population is around 5.2 million and the total US population is over 300 million.
You do the math.
Many of the Jewish legislators are not practicing Jews.
We have had only one Catholic President despite the fact that 1 in 20 Americans is Roman Catholic, but there are lots of Senators/Representatives/Cabinet members who are Roman Catholics.
We have Mormans and Christian Scientists and Quakers representing this country in very powerful positions.
Currently, we have one Muslim in the House of Representatives as well as two Buddhists. (Keith Ellison, Hank Johnson, and Mazie Hirano.)
Rep. Pete Stark is a self-proclaimed nontheist (atheist/agnostic).
And I have just skimmed the surface...
Now you are enlightened.
Ooohhhmmmm.
#80As per Jesus in the Qu'ran:
After having read the Qu'ran including passages relating to Jesus and Mary, I can only say that most of what is cited is at best, fiction, at worst, heresy and blasphemy. There are events which are described that never ocurred in the Gospels, which should be the definitive source for His life and works. The'spin' is mind-boggling. Muslims should read the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) thoroughly in the Holy Bible - New Testament.
Unfortunately, I haven't the time to discuss Christian theology at length at this time, but perhaps some of the Christians out there can read the following and comment on it. The Christians might want to start with this; http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/qur-jes.htm
#81Mohammad was a prophet of Satan and his #### is Quran.
The bastard was so dirty that he stinks even today.
#82To reply #81
You're not contributing anything to this discussion but visceral opinions. It would be more constructive to be scholarly and respectful.
Also, why are you two hiding behind 'anonymous'? It's disconcerting. It would be better if you had distinct identities in order to tell you apart immediately.
#83indeed there exists radicalism in many religions, in many forms
my grave concern at this moment is that we have a man bidding for this nation's highest office who has noooooooooomerous questionable links to questionable individuals. from politically active Islamo friendly individuals to individuals who are downright out-spoken in their anti-zionism/pro-islamic and even lunatics like Louis Farrakhan are embraced by his church... his own pastor is a former Muslim and is quoted as saying "9/11 was a wake up call for White America".
these things taken individually may not appear such a big deal, but putting all the pieces together is what I am finding truly disturbing. for me, this has nothing do with black or white, racism or prejudice... just simply a very serious level of concern about real dangers in the world. i should add that i am NY and I saw with my own eyes, the Twin Towers go down. one example of the above-mentioned "questionable individuals" is Raila Odinga
-this is an unbiased fair discussion of the subject: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57363
#84I have looked at Mohammad and Quran from all angles. I have looked from all angles the actions of the two that led to bloodshed, destruction and utter misery over the centuries. The two evils: one who was in flesh and blood the other in script - do not deserve even an iota of respect.
Today I can say that not one Moslem had ever embraced this heinous faith out of love or conviction in contrast to Christianity. Sheer terror of saving their lives made many down the ages to embrace the heinous dognma.
It is truly disgusting that modern Man endowed with higher mental faculties should still carry the #### of Islam on his back under fear.
#85Me thinks there is a lot of misconceptions here. There is a lot of killing going on here! Who killed who during the Great Crusades?? How far can be track the history of mankind back? The history of mankind is a continous war with a few periods of "peace" so we can breed new fodder! Just an observation.
#86#85, see "Reasons for the Crusades" and "The Hard Truth for Islam: No Other Religion Produces Such Numbers of Mass Murderers". The shocking thing is that a very large number of Islamist preachers today, actively call for their followers to kill non-Muslims. See this post for documentation.
#87I agree with john mathews #84, There is no reason anyone should tolerate a dogma of murder and pedophilia. It's quincy adams said it best , "as long as the religion of mohamed is in practice, humanity will never know peace."
#88Hey nef, would you be good enough to let me know where that quote by John Q Adams came from? What was the source?
Thanks.
#89the first time i came across this quote was in Robert spencers's The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades.
But this is quoted here in the big picture
John Quincy Adams on Islam:
"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, [.....] Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST.- TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.... Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant ... While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men."
#90Helpful. Thank you.
#91in fact there is no radical islam normal is islam is radical islam and real muslims are all radical muslims
i want to share the reality that i lived with the real islam not the false one that they try to convince the west with
if you are muslim, recently converted to muslim some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions which drove a world of 1 billion which dont want to think and search and be honest with them selves
these hypocritic rules is created by mohamed to get people loyality to him in the name of allah and akkbar -which was a an god for some arabs at this time- he started fooling and told his followers how to fool and they must fool and still this story running to the day
a lot of arabs (islam and quran is all about arabic) dosent understand islam so how could non arabs do so they fool them
if you do some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions
most of the truth about islam and islamic lies could be found in arabic do not make them fool you if you dont understand arabic
muslim -real muslims- say that the quran is not accept by allah (GOD) in any other languge than arabic (may be that allah dose not understand english) and the quran is the same since it created -search and you will find it never be correct- and many other lies can not be right
and lies continue
muslims in fact create lies and beleive them
they always speak about islamic miracles, but islam never had a miracle than bringing war and hatred in a religion that get followed by millions that is the real miracle and the only one
any normal to fanatic muslim have a hatred to any non muslim which taught by his or her relegion
anyone knows the real fact about islam and care about his life and others lives and a real god not about this fooling called islam will immediately leave it,
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK!!
mohammed the prophet married many many women -i see he was lust for sex- and married 6 years old kid when he was 50s and mastaurbated with her had sex with her when she became 9!!
that one was from islamic trusted books and hadithes there are so many many more things to say and the real fact have even more
on of the islams aim is to distroy christianity and judism
i do not beleive in any of them yet
but if you put one of them in compare with islam
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
i invite every muslim to begin thinking is that a real distiney
will i find the 70x70 lady waiting for me with muhammed to have sex with me in heaven.
#92Repeatedly, the Adams quotation is referred to Robert Spencer's Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades.
Unfortunately, Spencer cites no reference for the quote, not in the chapter or the notes at the end.
So, does anyone know where Spencer got it from?
#93The quote can be found in the comprehensive annotated bibliography of John Quincy Adams’ writings, compiled by Lynn H. Parsons, page 269.
#94Thanks VIK RUBENFELD
I found a source also -- actually it's the same.
Spencer cites sources most of the time, but when he doesn't, it makes you wonder, did he bend that a little? He is so negative about nearly everything Islam -- interesting that JQA felt the same nearly 200 years before!
#95You're very welcome.
#96Christians talk of blasphemy. Mohammads go one step further and resort to murder.
Is God so fragile and weak that decaying mortal like us can blasphemy Him?
It is sheer stupidity that blasphemy should be an issue.
Can you blaspheme the moon by spitting at it? The spittle will fall on your face.
#97Hello John Matthews. I'll see if I, as a Christian, can clear this one up. Not promising miracles here, but I'm gonna give it my best shot.
God is above all and worthy of Creation's respect and reverence. In Heaven, He is surrounded by worship. Not blasphemy. Does He need worship? Is He wounded by blasphemy? God's too big, IMO, for either of these to be answered with a 'yes'. But that isn't the point. God requires our respect. It is the proper and obligatory thing to do. He's the King of the universe. Surely we give more respect even to worldly officials?
I dunno. Does that help? Is there another Christian here who can perhaps help me explain this better?
As for radical Muslims, I do agree with you that they seem to feel it is their place to carry out God's judgment. Now in the OT, the budding Jewish nation was required to take their new country by force. This was two-fold: it gave Abraham's descendants a home and it also pronounced God's judgment and condemnation on a people who's sin hit high to the heavens. They sacrificed their own babies for goodness' sake. God, with all of His super-human patience, had had enough. But the Jews weren't acting upon their own desire to act out God's judgment. Christians are likewise not charge by God to act out His judgment. We are told to leave the sentencing to Him. Our job is to warn the world about God's wrath. While He is a supremely loving God and has bent over backwards to give us seat with Him in Heaven, He will not force us. It is the Christian's job to let the world know the balanced message of God's love and mercy, and of His judgment. But that's it. We're kind of like the ancient Israeli prophets: we're told what to say and to whom. But we do not have God's authority to act out His condemnation. This is where the Muslims have it horribly wrong.
God is fully capable of acting out His own judgment and He Himself knows the best time to do this. We cannot assume to.
#98Can a cat coneptualise the working of a speed boat? God is beyond our ken. This is much is evident that there is a superpower and we are part of it. It is a mystery why we tend to feel and experience ours as a separate existence..
All I want is in the name of God let us not destroy one another. After all we belong to one human family despite the different labels we carry. By killing we insult God, or whatever God you are told to believe.
#99Islam is a failed civilization. Where are their Beethovens (none, as they think music is evil; when Cat Stevens converted to Islam, he had to give up his music), Isaac Newtons, Thomas Alva Edisons, Nikola Teslas, da Vincis, and on and on? Check the list of Nobel Prize winners, and I don't mean the soft liberal nonsense Carter phoney stuff peace stuff, I mean science and arts).
Islam is a failure because it does not police this evil, it ignores it or maybe approves of it, Islam owes the rest of the world an apology for the Mohammed Attas, bin Ladens, Zarkowis, ..... and all those fat bearded evil guys. What is this thing with Islam's adoration of fat bearded evil guys? Even that American traitor the terrorists put on tv is a fat bearded evil guy. They (not terrorists, just Islamics) riot and kill children and nuns about cartoons and the Pope saying something about evil in the 14 th century, but say nothing about the beheading of innocents, the government of Afghanistan (not terrorists, the government) sentencing to death someone who converted to Christianity. They hear about Islamics (not terrorists, just Islamics) who want to kill a British school teacher whose students name a teddy bear "Mohammed," they say nothing when they hear the cockpit recorder of United 93 reveal that their last words over and over was "Allah is beautiful." And on and on.
A civilization that like Churchill said, has people who can be charming individually, but collectively is fundamentally evil. When the term "Fundamental Islamics," is used, it really means "Fundamentally Evil Islamics," as they have read the Quran, and believe the Quran commands their evil and that they are doing the work of Allah. In Andrew McCarthy's book, "Willful Blindness, A Memoir of the Jihad," about the Blind Sheik's trial for the first World Trade Center bombing, he reveals that to his astonishment, the quotes from the Quran that the Blind Sheik (Satan on Earth) said he was obeying, were in fact correctly quoted.
#100couthbaron I fully agree what you have said. Calling a cult like Islam a religion is like calling a coaching class run by a unemployed youth as an university.
Islam incites murder and hatred which is banned by almost all the constitution of the countries on this earth. Islam has bastardized human sensibilities. The irony is that these horrendous monsters who maim and kill people in the name of Islam utter words from their dirty mouth like Allah is merciful. It is indeed a cruel paradox that a merciful god is so blood thirsty.
But therein lies the rub, John. The God of Islam is required to be merciful only to Muslims.
I often think that much of the issue of conflict between the Judeo/Christian world and the Muslim, is one of culture, and that is reflected in the semantics used in the argument: what is the meaning of "innocent" to a Christian as opposed to a Muslim? What is the meaning of "merciful god"? When the way the religions - and thus cultures - view the world is so fundamentally different, discussion often seems a moot point. If two sides don't even view the same moral reality as the context for discussion, where does that leave us?
Just random thoughts - not asking for an answer. I'm not sure there is one. What I do know is that the time is coming when each of us will have to take a moral stand - something supremely unpopular in our PC culture. I have come to believe over time and study that some moral truths are and must be universal in order for mankind to advance culturally and spiritually. We will all be called upon to give voice to that universal moral truth - it's going to take clear-sightedness and great courage.
In my opinion, Vik is one of our early, clear-sighted, courageous voices. Kudos.
#102the difference between the two religions is, basically this,
the world curses the christians for not practising their faith and the moslem because he does.
Christian religion holds up hope for a peaceful life.
islamic religion holds up a fist and a sword to all of those who do not comply. It is hard to believe that in the begining we had the same teacher.
Jesus Christ.
I fear jealousy is at the root of all of this.
#103Chucky,
There was a Golden Age of Islam, when the Islamic countries of North Africa and the Near East were at their apex, inventing Arabic numerals such as 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
had great architecture and music, and were generous to neighbors, while Europe was in the Dark Ages.
Then something happened. As I understand it, the Koran said the downfall of Islam would come from the West, but instead some invader came from the East, and threw all the books into the Euphrates so his horses could cross, and killed all the scientists.
Is this true? Who was the Invader that brought Islam into the the modern Dark Ages? When? How did Islam go so suddenly from the Top the world, to its current position at the Bottom?
This was after the Crusades, so it can't be blamed on the Christians.
Paul
#104This is just awful, and exactly why the world today is in such trouble. It shames me terribly as a Christian to see my christian brothers disrespecting the views and faiths of other people and cultures.
In many ways the media under George W. Bush has been given a free license to work up a frenzy and bring out the ignorances of our great nation, to attack any one who is different.
The situation has got so bad that we now misquote the bible, the quran and the torah. We incite our muslim brothers with quotes that are not true, and we accuse them of things that we have been doing throughout the ages. God warns us of Hypocrisy and there is too much today.
I have read some posts here which have shocked me as many of the postees claim that they are proud to be Christian, a religion of peace and love, but in their words are encouraging people to hate muslims and promoting hate towards people who are different, therefore breeding intolerance.
Also let me say this. Murder is Murder, regardless of the reasoning behind it. People of all religions kill.
Christians kill, Jews kill, Muslims kill.
All of the reasons are different. But our reasons don't make it right. And their reasons dont make it any worse than ours.
Vietnam was not a muslim war. It was Christian American soldiers killing Buddhists, Taoists, Confuscists and Christians. Casualties 7 million in North Vietnam, 2 million in South Vietnam.
The colonization of Africa was carried out mainly by Western European Christian nations. The amount of Africans killed will never been known, but it takes a lot of killing to subdue a whole continent. Just ask Britain, France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany.
America was a colony of Britain. Christians fought Christians, killing each other resulting in murder and killing, Not very Christian-like. America was seen to be a terrorist like state, a pariah according to the rulers of the British Empire.
Let us not forget that in the 1500's the American Indian population was 12 million. By 1900 this had reduced to 237,000. Many would call this a genocide. The Christian settlers did not treat their hosts as true guests should. Respecting the laws of the country you live in is something we tell a lot of foreigners in our lands to adhere to. Maybe we could do the same.
Christians used to burn woman at the stake accusing them of witchcraft, and in certain Christian african nations these practices are still carried out, even amongst children.
Let us stop the hypocrisy and start to respect our neighbours around the world as our founding fathers recommended and as Christians should.
#105John you self deprecations shows how far the Muslim terror has affected you.
Yes all of kill irrespective of religion. But Muslim kill because their Koran is embedded in hate
#106John, just because someone says they're Christian, doesn't mean they are. Secondly, our major problem TODAY -- not back in 1690 or 1000, but TO-DAY -- is radical Islam. Even about 25% of so-called moderate Muslims in our own great United States sympathize with the idea that suicide bombing may sometimes be necessary. And notice how quiet they've been since 9/11. They barely speak a word about it, but are all too quick to start making a fuss whenever an airline kicks some questionable men off a plane. I find that a tad disturbing and so should you.
John also misses the point that with the wars he cites as examples, they weren't driven primarily upon Christian ideology - Christian population on our side was incidental to the conflict, not the reason for it. (In fact even the Crusades were about land and cultural preservation - it wasn't the intend of the Crusaders to spead ideolgy, regardless of what the current leftist mantra preaches). But with Islam today, the entire aim is world conversion for Allah. Islamitization IS the driving ideology - the very root reason for the aggression. That is the difference, and it's a BIG one.
In fact, it may be argued that Islamitization was the root cause of the Crusades: Europe had spent centuries defending itself from Moorish aggression - aggression that was directly related to conversion by the sword for Allah. At the time of the first Crusade, Christians and Jews had been denied freedom in Jerusalem, all of Spain was under Islamic control, France had fought it for centuries, as had much of mediterranean Europe. They were tired of it. It is accurate to say we are still fighting the same fight - defending freedom of ideology from Islamic oppression.
Your heart is in the right place, John, but your view is uneducated and naive, with all respect. Sometimes it's important to call evil what it is.
In an article I wrote last year, I talked about this very subject:
"I realize that it makes Westerners uncomfortable to be confronted with the statement that negotiation with Islam is not possible. We want to believe that there is always room for negotiation, for joint efforts in peace building. However, clinging to that belief in the face of the reality of an Islamist mindset is not realistic, and it will be the death of Western society. As we spin our wheels trying to negotiate peace with a religion that does not define peace in the same way we do, the political agenda of a political religious ideology is easily establishing itself within our shores, and this is in direct opposition to many of our constitutional values. The issue isn’t all about us versus them. It’s about our commitment to peace not only for ourselves, but for millions of Muslim lives caught up in the violence of Islam..." http://fsmarchives.org/article.php?id=914415
You might want to check out another article I wrote over a year ago on this very issue: http://fsmarchives.org/article.php?id=1127780
The more one learns of Islam at its core values, the more one cannot in good conscience defend it, or continue to speak of it as harmless.
#108Though a Christian I have read Bhagvad Gita and Koran. Koran is shocking to say the least. It's totally anti-humane. I don't understand how modern man tolerates such a vile book in the name of religion!
Incidentally I feel each one of us must read Gita and judge for himself its true divinity.
The essence of Gita can be found in each of its sloka. Since Koran is haunting us one should read the chapter 11 sloka 55 wherein Lord Krishna says: My dear Arjuna, he who engages in My pure devotional service, free from the contaminations of fruitive activities and mental speculation, he who works for Me, who makes Me the supreme goal of his life, and who is friendly to every living being--he certainly comes to Me.
All life are God created. Man has no right to kill. In our food habits we still follow to some extent the habits of our primitive forefathers. But killing for the sake of an evil prophet is the worst crime I can imagine.
The evil Koran makes it mandatory on its mental slave urging them that whosoever does not believe in me(the barbaric prophet mohammad) then kill those nonbeliever wherever you find him.
#109Jesus was but a supremely gifted man, with the mind of goodness for all of mankind against what he percieved as a corruption of the original jewish teachings. in my view.
Muhammad, was a theorizer of things he knew not of and conveyed them as a politician looking for votes, know one thing to be true,
there is always down trodden people looking for vengence
and superiority over themselves and all those who dare to speak the truth, It just happens that they attack christian based societies for now.
His followers are non thinking people who are too cowardly to attack a nation or people who will not tollorate their barbarism.
I dare them to attack a nation of a billion people such as china and see what would happen.
I can tell you,
The very same venomous people they attack today would stand up in their defence , not as american or canadian or french but as christian based societies.
case closed.....
#110Keith, you have noticed the selective memory of Islamics. And it is not a mistake, they are taught this. Ever hear them say "Crusaders," as if they are the victims? Read "The Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic, and many other books. This may be the most important book you will ever read. Read how Islam was spread "by the Sword," how throughout the Middle East city after city had Islamic hoardes slaughter all the males, how the girls would watch their fathers, brothers, husbands be beheaded (the big Islamic thing, as this is what the noble Quran tells them to do), and then be treated to a night or nights of orgy, and enslavement to follow. All because that is what Allah told them to do. This book will walk you through all of it, right through Symrna Turkey in 1922, to the present day. And of course Islamics will tell it was a lie, and then point to the Crusade of 1099 yet again, nevermind the last Crusade ended in 1270. And they will point to stuff Christians did hundreds of years ago, and on a scale many orders of magnitude smaller. And then they will point to verses in the Bible, again many many less in number, and nothing that anyone would do today. They will not point out to you the pure demonic evil theme that dominates the Quran.
You will never see a more clueless bumper sticker than "Coexist." The one whose first letter is the C formed by the Islamic crescent and star. Pitiful, clueless entitled slovenly indolent liberal Americans drive those cars with that sticker. Maybe they are elsewhere as well. But these, let's be nice and just say, "Well bless their hearts," just do not realize that they, like myself, do not even know what religion their coworkers and friends are, and do not really care. And the reason for that lies in the post above by the pensive John Matthews, who tells of the readings of Gita (I am not familiar with this). This is because that, as I thought until embarassing recently, that all religions were " all the same, good stuff, love thy fellow man, knowing right from wrong, some worship cows and some think this that or the other, but all decent right and wrong knowing stuff." And the only one that is not is the first one on that liberal slovenly indolent American bumper sticker, "Coexist." The poor dears do not realize that they can say "Think I will go try that Methodist/Presbyterian/Baptist/Catholic/Whatever church Sunday" and that absolutely no one will care or be offended, it is a free country. For now anyway, the events of 4 November hopefully is not the end, the Islamic terrorist groups like CAIR here, their plan being immigration, which has served them so well in Europe. After all, Islam has been doing this since the seventh century, these are not "Instant Gratification" folks like the slovenly indolent Americans among us. The goody goody girlie guy liberals who were so informed November 4th, having researched well who did Freddie and Fannie, oh yes, they threw the sorry corrupt politicians out. Take that Barney Franks, Frank Raines, John "Hero Marine" Murtha. DO NOT MESS WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BARNEY FRANKS AND COMPANY, AND THAT IS WHY YOU ARE NOW LOOKING FOR JOBS NOW THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SPOKE ON NOVEMBER 4th! But I digress, but wow, Jefferson, who said "The Informed Citizen is the Cornerstone of Democracy" would jump out of his grave and kick them in the teeth if he but could. And so would "You can fool all the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln would have to reasses that today in view of November 4th. A different people we have become.
But back to the question, the question being, will they assimilate, or will the silent ones wait for the evil minority to tell them what to do??
No, Coexist bumper sticker folks do not realize that they would be beheaded if they did something like that in Saudi Arabia, Iran, ....Just Bless their little hearts.
We have heard it before, the "Hun in the Sun," the big mean "Krauts," that is who the enemy is! Or how about those "Slanteyes," boy were they bad. Just pure evil!! And then "Chinese Hoardes" at the Chosin resevoir, boy they were just plain evil. This just in time got us ready for the "Gooners" and "Gooks" of Viet Nam (Nevermind how successful the Viet Namese people have been who have come to America, bright, hard working, very successful, and very very nice people, not at all evil).
#111The year was 1978, when John Carpenter's "Halloween" was released, and is now one of the classic horror movies. At the end of the first one is the detective Donald Pleasance, who gazes with a child at the spot where the evil demonic Michael Myers was lying motionless but a moment ago. The child asks, "Was that the Boogeyman." And Pleasance replies "Indeed it was..." the spookey music and the credits roll. And for you to ponder, is that Boogeyman Islam? Is this the clash of civizilations that Huntington told us of? This struggle, or in their words, "Jihad" that has gone on since the seventh century, is it coming to a head. Hitler's "Mein Kamph" also means "My Struggle." But this was the "Huns" and "Krauts," a nation of maybe 150 or so million. Islam is NOT a country, and it has 1.2 billion of about 6 billion on the planet, and has the world's highest birth rate. And petrodollars. So is it just one religion of many, as the Bless Their Hearts Coexist Bumper Sticker folks think, just another religion that is really no different than any other? Or is Islam the Boogeyman? Is it???
#112john matthews you saw that islam teaches to kill. I told you that regardless of the reasons, killing is killing. Are you so blind that when you say Islam as a religion encourages people to kill, that you dont realse that our foreign policy is also encouraging our troops to kill in our name. Religion is one aspect that determines an individuals ideals. Our governments have also done the same
Whats the difference between a book telling you to kill your enemies and George W. Bush telling our troops to do the same. None. It the same.
As I said to you, your blind hate is ultimately the very problem with the world today. I have come to my conclusions by looking through our history and the history of the world. I think that more suffering has been caused upon more people in the world by caucasian christian western peoples than any other civilizations on earth. I think as an intelligent person you probably know this.
And im not a self hater, quite the opposite, im very aware of what my people have been doing in Latin America (funding the contras and death squads, countless coups by the CIA bringing suffering to millions), in Africa (slavery and colonization), Asia (vietnam, cambodia, laos, indonesia, funding the Khmer Rouge, death squads, millions of deaths) and the middle east (countless coups, unprovoked invasions, meddling in the affairs of the arabs, beirut, Gulf war 1 and 2, and biased helping of Israel, helping them build nuclear weapons and supporting their totally illegal occupation of arab lands).
Also Im a Christian, i dont know what you think but the bhagvad gita is a book that promotes the worship of many gods, i believe you are a Christian and that you would not encourage polytheism as their is only one true lord the saviour Christ. However i do respect the right of anyone to their beliefs, I myself would not promote the bhagvad gita, as a christian.
As our Lord saviour would have, let us preach and practice tolerance and respect, and not as many here have been on this site, do the devils work and preach hate on humanity.
#113keith in regards to your comment 'muslims sympathize with suicide bombers' i would like to know how many muslims you have asked about this and how much is assumption.
on the flipside a muslim is very much in their right to assume or if they like claim as a fact that Christians like dropping bombs on villages in remote places in Afghanistan or Iraq, many of whom probably had no idea what was going on.
Why cant you see the hypocrisy. We kill them, we kill them, we kill them, we kill them, they kill us (media make a big fuss, patriotic civillians scream for blood), we kill them some more.
Can you see a pattern emerging here.
For some serious research. Do some checking up.
Look at all the major wars before Sep 11, where we invaded some place.
Look at our casualties and look at theirs.
You'll see we have killed far more people than the other guys anywhere we have gone.
Also I have started to do something and have encouraged my friends to do this.
Anytime some terrorism occurs, we have now started to use the religion factor everytime. Not just in Islamic regards.
So ETA (still active) in Spain is now Christian Terrorism, IRA(still active, not hundreds of years ago), Irish catholics now Christian Terrorism, Gods Army(still active) Burmese christian terrorists. Ku Klux Klan(still active) now Christian Terrorism. I was gonna stop just in case any says 'oh is that all' instead we have to clean up our act as christians before we claim to be cleaner than clean. I will list all Christian terrorism going on right now and Jewish as well, and I am using our standards in the west of judging and the groups below have caused terror with religion as a main instigator.
Army of God (US)
Aryan Nations (US)
Ku Klux Klan (US)
Christian Patriots (US)
National Liberation Front of Tripura (india)
Nagaland Rebels (india)
Guardians of the Cedars (lebanon)
Christian Phalangist Militia (lebanon)
Provisional Irish Republic Army (ireland)
Catholic Reaction Force (ireland)
Irish Peoples Liberation Organisation (ireland)
Irish National Liberation Army (ireland)
Real IRA (ireland)
Red Hand Commandos (ireland)
Ulster Volunteer Force (ireland)
Ulster Resistance (ireland)
Russian National Unity (russia)
Russian National Socialists (russia)
Tzar Lazar Guard (serbia)
White Eagles (serbia)
Gods Army (burma)
Sons of Freedom (canada)
The Lords Resistance Army (Uganda)
Jewish Defence League (Israel)
Kach and Kahane Chai (Israel)
Gush Emunim Underground (Israel)
#114John I am surprised by your warped logic. It seems you love Islam more than Muslims.
George Bush never went killing anyone until the modern day Islamic Prophet Osama bin Laden struck America in a brutal way. Yes, Bush should have kept quiet and allowed the poor bastards in Afghanistan to stay in peace!
There is not even an iota of religion in Islam. It is a barbaric cult that encourages deflowering of girls by maniacal followers and stocking their gala of women behind suffocating burkhas.
If world has to see love and peace Islam has to be eradicated as was done with small pox. Your misplaced sense of compassion and comparing Christian cheese with Islamic chalk is shocking to say the least. f
#115My my John, an impressive display of having the facts at your beck and call and seeing the exact opposite of reality. Above that old canard, one of the BIGGEST LIES THAT WE CHERISH AND BEHOLD, that business of the plight of the poor Palistinean people and how "their land has been stolden...." How about, let's make this real easy for you, you do not even have to google it, it is all on this web site. I hope you do read, and not just accept all this liberal prattle about how everything is America's fault and if we would just give them Palistine "back" and destroy Israel, they would be happy and all this terrorism would just go away, please don't tell me that you at least do not check the facts and take this all at face value?? Like so many indolent Americans...And you did read the comments above but have you not read the links and back and forth on this Palistinian lie and other such banalaties?? I am not going to provide you a link, it is the thing of "Give a man a fish and he will eat tonight, but teach a man how to fish and he will eat the rest of his life." So stop it, quit being intellectually bankrupt and spreading lies. And you list a bunch of trivial in comparison fringe fanatic groups along with the KKK, do you think wisdom can be presented as quantity of rubbish, lies, distortions, exaggerations?? And while you are at it, please research Algeria in 1990 and how the fanatics took control and murdered 100,000 fellow muslims to promote the one we call Satan but they call Allah. Please explain how this was caused by American foreign policy. Then take a look at Sudan, as we speak, and how the Islamics have murdered 1 million people recently since they were "Unbelievers." Please tell me what American foreign policy had to do with that. Check out what happened to Symrna in Asia Minor in 1922, and please tell me what American foreign policy had to do with that. And I could fill pages with similar examples. But let's help connect the dots, guess what is common to all of the aforementioned? Can you see it?? IT IS ISLAM. So tell me how American foreign policy caused this. And not fairy tales, not stuff about how Islam is the same thing as the KKK and other such long gone things, way out of proportion, and in no way now relevent. A long gone bunch of ignorant white men who felt so inferior that they needed to surpress someone so they could feel powerful. Pitiful men, bigoted, stupid, easily enraged and made to follow as their rational abilities were severly limited, these make great followers. There are similarities, as there are with all kinds of collective evil movements. They wore white sheets, but Islamic demonic fanatics do even better, they pretend to be innocent civilians, well versed in political correctness and just how offended they are, the favorite pasttime of Islamics, being offended, and being very selective as to what to be offended about. And when they are killed along with the human shields they have used, they just love to go tell the feckless media about "OH THE AMERICANS HAVE KILLED A BUNCH OF CIVILIANS, AND NONE WERE TERRORISTS." And the mallability, the ease of being infuriated, the lack of any rational ability, have you seen them in hoardes jumping up and down with their signs and screaming Allah Akbar and Death to America and who knows what else? They make the KKK look like a line up of Nobel Prize winners in physics. The most despicable demonic people in the entire tapestry of mankind, this Islamic evil. Hitler is no comparison, nor Atilla the Hun, Gengus Khan, this is from hell.
Let's make this real easy, after you take a tour of this site, which you either have not or if you have, then dismissed anything that contrasted with your preconceptions. Research is not needed for those types. But after all, "you are entitled to your opinions, even if they are wrong." Let's make this armchair stuff for you, check out the DVD "Islam Against Islamics." which will show you the struggle of decent Islamics against the demonic evil that dominates their religion not in numbers but in influence. There you will see brave Islamics who are trying to make a difference, but it does not appear that they are anywhere close to winning. There is a HORRIBLE evil in Islam, and fail to see this at your own peril. I heard about the Islamic cleric (Kibbain??) who gave a pre - 9/11 speech to American senators, representatives, congressmen telling of the looming evil from bin Laden and suicide bombers.
#116I had heard this but did not really believe it, but I saw it with my own eyes here, and so should you. But the reason I call you to watch this is to let you hear the story of the Danish cartoons, how when presented with proof that a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with the cartoons, pictures of pig faced things that they were told were of Muhammod, were presented to the masses to inflame them, and APPARENTLY BEING FULLY AWARE OF THE LACK OF ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT PROCESS OF THE ISALMIC PEOPLE TO DISCERN LIES, TO BUY IT HOOK LINE AND SINKER AND TAKE TO THE STREETS TO BURN, DESTROY, AND YES MURDER. Look hard at this Muslim cleric, he knows how pliant and predisposed Muslims are (a huge number anyway, and the response from the remainder of Muslims is silence.}
Now, carefully listen to the Muslim cleric who did this try to explain his way out of it, knowing he had been caught and presented with undisputed facts by not so pliant and easily mislead people. Just listen to the evasiveness and stream of lies. Yes, so many of us are just living a great big lie.
You have a mind, use it, do not live a lie, go read books, blogs, ... and get yourself informed. And when confronted with lies, SPEAK UP, otherwise you are no better than the liars. You can continue to be ignorant and spread lies if you wish, but a terrible waste of the mind it is. Do you really like people to tell these lies to you as if they are smarter than you? Like the aforementioned Muslim Cartoon cleric? That smooth talking demon thinks he is smart? Compared to room - temperature IQ fanatic Islamics with no rational though process as they have been brainwashed since birth, he apparently is. But aren't you better than that??
I'm sorry John, but I have to speak to this: your religion/terrorism game would be reasonable if it reflected reality and real knowledge of these conflicts. The ETA is in fact based on a separatist Basque ideology - blaming Christianity is just misguided. The IRA? You have to be kidding. You evidently have been taught somewhere that it is all about those nasty Catholics. In fact, the conflict is a socio-economic conflict; that the ones in political power and landowners are traditionally Protestant and the poor non-landowners are traditionally Catholic, is incidental to the conflict. (I think an uneducated American mind like to see it as Catholics vs Protestants for simplicity, but in fact it's not a religious war at all.) In fact, serious study would let you know that the Catholics have suffered far more terrorism-related casualties through the years.
My point is, it's easy to reduce complicated conflicts to a simple inaccurate nutshell: it's all the fault of (usually Christian) religion. But that isn't fair, it isn't right, and it doesn't reflect actual facts.
I think what many on the Left have trouble wrapping their PC minds around, is that not all the world's peoples operate under the same set of principles as you do. You are judging the behavior of all based on your own moral reality, and with Islam it just doesn't hold water. Just one example: the Islamic doctrine of Taqiyya. This is a part of the religion which allows deception of the Infidel - in other words, if you lie boldfacedly to advance the cause of Islam, it's okay. Not only okay but a virtue. Now that is so far from the Western moral foundation - where deception is considered a "sin" - that we might have trouble fully accepting its reality. But Taquiyya allows a cleric to say one thing to the world media and the opposite to the local populace, without batting an eyelash of moral shame.
I think that one of the most terrifying things about Islamitization of the West, is that people like John find it easier to hate their own heritage and society, than to accept the horrifying reality that Islam represents: one where truth is not a virtue, where protecting women and children is not a virtue, where education is not a virtue, embracing other ideologies is not a virtue.
#118I would love to see the muslim community stand up to the terrorists with statments like the Quaran says not to kill inocent men , women and children. But , lots of luck doint that because the Quran says to kill them. Slit there throats and worse. How can any person even think of joining such a religion with faciests doing what they are doing in the name of allah or there god . They say there's a difference from them over "there". Well the only difference it over there is a whole lot them there and not too many here. Just let it change and we will see these kind muslim people here keep there mouths shut tighter than it is now. There god is not the God of JudioChristian. There's is the god of the sun god of Babble or Bahl. I better quit , I'm getting upset talking about this because it's falling on deaf ears and blind eyes because people don't do any researsh before they join something like islam and go in it blindly. The real God is in control anyway and I'm so happy to know this.
#119God bless the owners of this website. I just came across this website today and it was refreshing to read all these great articles. I myself am a searcher of truth and I have read a lot about islam and in fact know islam in depth and more than many moslems do. I have read the Quran and Hadiths in 3 languages verse by verse as well as a lot of other historical books from both Christian and Islamic scholars. Based on my research of irrefutable historical facts I have concluded that Allah is not God-father the creator of universe but a locan pagan deity that was wrongfully and deliberately given attributes of the God the father and creator. To conclude I would like to add the following:
"Slay the infidels (non-muslims) where you find them" (Sura 9:5).
#120Lorenc, you have unmasked the the Biggest Lie Ever Told, "Islam is a religion of peace." You heard President Bush say it in his speech after 9/11, you heard it from Bill Clinton when he was President, and you heard it from Tony Blair in another speech. If you saw the movie "The Usual Suspects," you heard the signature and most enduring line throughout the movie: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was in convincing you that he did not exist." That is Islam's divinely authorized dirty secret, it is called al-Taqiyya, the one that says it is ok to lie cheat steal kill Unbelievers to promote Islam, but not so to Believers. I am sure that you, Lorenc, have uncovered this Fatal Flaw of Islam. JFK had extraordinary mental capabilities, but our leaders today are well-intended but woefully uninformed. GW Bush says that Islam is a religion of peace, and knows NOTHING about this religion. He has been presented with NOTHING to support this absurd statement. GW Bush gave the Palistineans $500 million dollars a few months ago, money from decent, stupid - but - basically - good people Americans who have throughout this and the last century reached out to other nations in the hope of mitigating the misery in their lives. No amount of money will solve this problem. And if you think that $500 million from Americans to People Who Hate Them was bad, it is pale by comparison to the Dhimmicratic Party and the feckless idiots who have ran that party since Jimmy Carter. Carter, by far, the Worst President of All Time, gave Billions to this evil, to this day Butt Kisser of America's enemies. Don't tell me about Warren Harding, who had no qualifications whatsoever for the job with the exception of looking presidential. Doing absolutely nothing as Harding did would have done far less harm than Carter, as the billions he wasted on our enemies was just a tiny part of this man's legacy. And then we get Bill Clinton. The Dhimmicratic Party, whose only plan is "We Don't Like Bush, We Want Change." More billions to our enemies in Palestine, and fighting for the Islamics in Kosovo, thinking that if we fought on the side of Islam that somehow all fourteen centuries of Islam's evil against everyone else would just disappear. Another man in the Oval Office who has not done the required reading. Let's let you see a couple of little vignettes with your own eyes, maybe that will do it, maybe this is why this evil of Islam has survived all these centuries because the evil they do is just not believeable, is is so evil that to tell of it results in abject rejection as absurd. But could it be that if one sees this evil with ones' own eyes might work??? So watch "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West." Watch the segment where you see a smiling Bill Clinton in the middle of Yassar Arafat and at the Israelis in yet another peace summit in which this cluessless Dhimmicrat gives yet more billions to our enemies. Then watch the segue to Arafat saying Jihad and Jihad and Jihad to jubliant evil jumping up and down like cucumber IQ types as they just love to do. Idiots send billions to our enemies, who just do not realize what demonic evil, hopeless, utterly hopeless evil, this is.
#121A dichotomy between Us and Them. From hell, its evil needs to be utterly destroyed, enough of this Political Correctness. Rescue what ones you can, but this religion needs an enema, root out the evil, destroy it. If not, it will destroy you. Enough of the apologies, Islam must be CONFRONTED with its evil and corrective measures DEMANDED. Enough of them doing the demanding, the rest of the world is GOOD and Islam is EVIL and they must be confronted with this, and their evil locked up or killed. Your alternative is for the West to end "Not with a Bang but with a whimper."
Those Islamics who sit on the sidelines and say nothing, and you are in the majority, you are utterly despicable, you have seen this evil up close and you understand it all too well, you knew this evil centuries ago, and you have either promoted it or you have remained silent. Loathsome. You had better hope that the Quran tells you the truth, but I find that book nothing but evil and lies, you had better hope the Hereafter is not the fire and brimstone of other religions as you will surely burn. Cowardice is the only Unforgivable Sin, not "shirk," or Unbelieving as your evil book tells you.
It Islam only was a religion of peace, mankind could really focus on problems that face us all. But there is one problem out there that you may put at the top of any "To Do" list, and that is the Middle East. Winston Churchill and JQ Adams saw so long ago, if from hell, and it will not be fixed. It must be addressed, not apologized to. Nothing complex here, just raw evil. Watch "Suicide Killers" on dvd and hear it from those with failed "Martyrdom Missions" in their quest to "Kill their Jew" and go to Paradise. This is an utterly failed civilization, and no amount of money, good will, missionaries, can save it, it is Satan on earth. There are no doubt, as evidenced by our foreign policy, many out there who do not believe this. And I really wish that there was some justification for this disbelief. I really do not wish you to someday be confronted with the Awful Truth, as 9/11 just did not do it for you. You think that somehow that was an isolated thing and not connected to the evil perpetrated by the Islamic world since Muhammod went up to that mountainside and started hearing "voices." That's right, you are living in a horror movie, and the more you read about Islam the closer you come to the Awful Truth. Your life a horror movie, and not one that will end happily. Hope I am wrong, hope is all there is.
#122If the Federation can make peace with the Klingon Empire, surely there is hope for Christians and Muslims. Live long and prosper!
#123I wish this were so but alas it is not, fourteen centuries of Islamic hoardes destroying civilizations, murduring all the men in front of the women, then three nights of orgy and pillage. The looting is the inspiration, 20% to Muhammod, the rest to the rest, these are Satan's people. Read "Smyrna 1922, the Destruction of a City," by Marjorie Houspian Dobkin to know of what the Islamics did to 1.5 million Christians from 1915-1922 and you will understand. And do not try to say this was isolated, it was merely one of many such occurances since Muhammod in the seventh century. This is among the darkest most depraved sad sad immoral inhumane stories you will ever read, and the most striking thing is that there were 21 Allied warships in that harbor who did nothing but ignore what was being done to the Christians b/c of the oil. THis was selling of the soul to the Devil, and you cannot help but think that what is coming to in particular France and Britian is deserved. The Greeks had the Turks defeated, but the Brits and French took the side of the Turks b/c of the oil, and held the Greeks off until the Chettas (foreign Islamics, just like in IRaq) arrived, and the Greeks were slaughtered and then the civilians of Smyrna, following the same fate as all other villages in Anatolia, were slaughtered, and their possesions taken, including all girls from 14 to 35, raped and mutilated. And the Americans are not clean on this, one of history's true scoundrels and liars, with much blood on his hands, was Admiral Mark Bristol, USN. He should be exhumed brought back to life were it possible and prosecuted for crimes against humanity. Dark, very dark, this, and those of you in European cities should familiarize yourselves with what happened to Smyrna as that is your fate should you not wake up, which I think doubtful.
#124The Satan who called himself Prophet Mohammad was bereft of ideas when he had grandiosely announced his satanic religion. He told the faithfuls who have been bonded with terror: Brings the kufrs or unbelievers to Islamic fold. If not wherever you live do the opposite of what the kufrs do. If the kufrs grow moustache you do the opposite; if they are spitting out you spit inside your house.Why did the Islamic monster give such an advice? Simply to make Islamist look different from others!
#125Of the roughly 100 million people killed between WWI & II, how many were the Islamic Hoardes responsible for? Of the thousands killed by terrorism in Ireland, how many were Muslim suicide bombers? Which religion bears a greater responsibility for ridding the Western Hemisphere of the majority of its local population? Were those guilty of the tortures associated with the Spanish Inquisition bowing to Mecca and praying to Allah? Is Jesus to blame for any of these atrocities? No...of course not. Are there evil people who claim to follow Mohammad? Yes. But if we are to write off an entire religion for the actions of some, then wouldn't we be obliged to hold Christianity to the same standard?
You don't have to like Islam....God knows, I got no love for it. And as much as war sucks, we have the right to defend ourselves. Fight Al Qaeda. Kill Osama bin Ladin. But when you refer to Muslims as Satan's people, you have become the mirror image of our enemy.
Unless you're suggesting Americans pursue an agenda of world domination, I hope we might give consideration to the people in this world who may not share our faith, but who share our humanity and hope for a brighter future. As for me, I live my life the best I can, with all my imperfections, and leave the judging of one billion Muslims to the man upstairs. I mean, really, what else can we do? Kill them all and let God sort'em out?
You suggested I read "Smyrna 1922, the Destruction of a City". I suggest you watch more Star Trek...or perhaps Star Wars, where I hope you'll find a new source of inspiration in your crusade against the dark side of the force.
#126Jamie’s lament “But when you refer to Muslims as Satan’s people, you have become the mirror image of our enemy”is misplaced. In Islam either you are a Muslim or you are not. There is no good Muslim or a bad Muslim simply because you must read the Koran five times daily and obey every word of it as “THE GOD CALLED ALLAH HAS SPOKEN THROUGH HIS PROPHET.” OSAMA bin Laden is indeed a very good Muslim and who is very dear to Allah’s heart and his prophet as he is obeying the prophet's injunction at a great cost to his personal safety. Then why blame OBL when he is following strictly his the scriptures? This gets us to the core of the problem why OBL needs to behave and discriminate between a Muslim and Christian/Hindu/Jewish brothers. It therefore becomes clear that a mad man of yore had taken for a ride a whole class of people by using fear and brutality when the medieval people were susceptible to such influences. IT is time a Muslim must decide whether he should stick by Islam or stick by humanity. He cannot claim that he can do both. It is time a satanic religion is disowned. It is disingenuous for Jamie to talk of past brutalities by non-Muslims when those brutalities have ended. They were aberrations unlike Islamic brutalities that threatens to take over this world. Is Jamie blind to what happened recently in SWAT valley of Pakistan. This disease is spreading and could even come to our doorstep.
#127Jamie you mentioned the two world wars that we were in. That has nothing to do with this war that we are in unless you can relate it to 9/11. Then you are right on because we were attacked and we retaliated like we are now. Also I don't put my insperation in Star Wars or Star Trek because I put my insperation in Jesus Christ only. I'm not only talking about Christians only but the everyday moral person. We don't raise our kids to hate Isrial, other people of faith because we are to be tolerant , we are taught to love others, not cut there tongues out or cut there throt. Throw that into the Islamic religion and you can't compare it to there thinking. Our God is love, charity, ( see the ratical Muslims helping people after a storm) . We are taught by Gods word to hate the sin and not the sinner. The Muslim people are nice, have charity and are good people . Try reading the Bible but pray before you do that God will give you His insperation of what your reading. Salom. Mickey
#128Jamie, Star Wars is just entertainment and did not kill anyone. You trivilize the 1.5 million murdured by Islamics in Anatolia last century, the 300,000 murdured by Islamics in East Timor in the 80's and 90's, comparing it to World War II after Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust, absurd. Actually America was being run by liberals and wanted to stay out, and some call not stalingrad but Pearl Harbor the most decisive battle of WWII as this caused the liberals to be cast aside and America entered and the conclusion was determined, although it took a few years to play out. Check out how the Islamics murdured 200,000 Algerians in the 1990's then look at the calender and see when the Christians did such things, you will see more like 1590 and hopefully you will start to understand. If we as a people fail to see what Islam is then we will perish, just like the Armenians, Zoastrians, and all the others the Islamics have slaughtered in the name of this horrble religion, the religion of Satan. Read the book, it is dark, but read it, in honor of these innocent people, and understand what this religion is and what it does. And do not listen to those fools who talk of only a few bad Islamics, look at what Islam does, at Smryna, at the over one million and counting murdured in Darfur and the sudan, have you somehow ignored that too? Or you blame that on America nevermind it is Islamics who do this? ANd why has this religion produced no Salks, Newtons, no INternet, tv, radio, NOTHING, why is this??? Do you not get it. Read about how Muhammod and his hoardes of raping pillaging murdurers conquered Constanople in 1453 and held a banquet with the heads of the Byzantium king and his family on poles, and three nights of orgy afterwards. Did this happen just once, no, it has been happening since the seventh century and the only reason they have not been able to do this in the West is because they were stopped at the Gates of Vienna on SEPTEMBER 11, 1683. But they are coming and they will do this, the Islamic Horse of Immigration. Get it Jamie? You had better, for the sake of your children and their children. And do not forget al Taqiyya, divinely mandated lying by Islamics to promote this horrible religion. From Hell, Islam, the breath of the Beast.
#129Joseph...I'm seeing all kinds of names, dates, and numbers from the past that are supposed to serve as proof of Islamic evil. The dark side of Christianity has a history too, and I see nothing disingenuous with reminding everyone here of that undeniable fact. Past brutalities an aberration? 6 million jews that died in Christian Germany might not take kindly to that comment. And the Troubles in Ireland "ended" in the 1990's...fairly recent in my book.
Mickey...a bit presumptuous to assume I haven't read the Bible. My parents were moderate Southern Baptist, and I was blessed with an especially wise mother. She taught me to hear people out, but that I should not let others dictate what I should believe. God gave us minds of our own, and I don't think I've found two people yet who agree on everything. In my opinion, there's more people in heaven than just Christians. I know, I know...blashpemy. But, no offense, it's not really your opinion I care so much about. It's God's...and to a lesser extent the undecided minds that I plead my case to. And they will each have to use their own minds and come to their own conclucsions.
der Alleswisser...the dead get no respect in debates such as ours. We can toss numbers of the untold dead back and forth, without them having much input on the matter. Each one of each million had their own life, their own story to tell. But we don't really have time for that here, do we?
Yes, one might consider Star Wars and Star Trek just "entertainment". But artists often create such works of fiction with the hope that it might illustrate some important life lesson in a new and meaningful way. And so my purpose is dual...to add levity to what is obviously dire subject matter, and to hope that you might actually watch an episode and see an issue from a new perspective. For example, ST episode 70 is an excellent commentary on race relations.
To sum up for tonight, I once again put forth the question to which I had no response. What are you suggesting we do? Kill them all and let God sort'em out? I'm not a pacifist...and I really hate having to defend a religion I don't even like. But for God's sakes...we're talking about people. Men, women, and children....going to work, going to school, getting married, having kids, and hoping to grow old with their loved ones. You have to have a really big ego to think everyone on the other side of the planet is spending their day just wishing they had a crack at killing you. If we could give our muslim allies just a little more credit, then maybe they might be willing to step up to the plate and fight back against the fundamentalist extremist who only represent mainstream Islam only in the fictional "we're good and they're evil" world you portray on this website. I mean, since you've written them all off as "Satan's People", why should they give a crap about us at all?
Read "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain. He says it better than me, and in far fewer words.
#130BTW der Alleswisser...
Since you put forth that Islam contributed nothing of value to society, perhaps you should stick to Roman numerals. Not that Islam actually came up with Arabic numerals and algebra...but we do have the Muslims to thank for passing that knowledge on to us. And they must have some skill with architecture, unless you're suggesting those big lavish mosques were built by Christians?
#131Kind of a reach to call the Germans a Christian nation . You might want to revisit that one because Christians didn't kill the Jews. I will reinterate the statement I made. I know there are a great many good Muslims and I know a few that wouldn't think of imulating the ratical Muslims at bit. What I am angry about is the silence I hear comming from the Muslims about there feelings on this radical issue. Even here in the US, remember the father killing daughter over her dateing a none Muslim and as the father was stabing her to death she was on the phone with 911 calling for help and as her mother was yelling for her to die girl , just die!! Or the tv station ower who bought a station to let people know that the Muslims were good people only to cut his wifes head off. Now none of thats normal . If they want to live here in the US , the alimulte to us , not us to them . Not my words but Gods word is people who are Christ like ( Christians) will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. No perverts, homosexuals, liers, thiefs, adultrers. Sin will not enter Heaven. The ratical Muslims have been killing Americans all the way back to the late 1700's . Read of the Treaty of Tripoli all the way to the killings lately. And still no word from hardly any Muslims touting the raticals. Thats not normal. Our God says love one another, there God says ( even in the good Muslims Koran ) kill the infedels. If they don't believe the way you do, kill them. My God says love one another. I'm not perfect , just forgiven. I tell people about what God has done in my life which He has worked a big change . I fail, but can go to Him for forgiveness and keep on going knowing that He forgives even in some of my unbelief. Hope you have understood that I don't hate anyone, I just hate the sin. Thanks Mickey
#132Jamie you seem to be bogged down by the past which you use it in a knee-jerk reaction to justify the ongoing Islamic depradations. Since ages Islamic butchers have been killing innocents for no fault of theirs except that they do not owe allegiance to a Satanic credo.
Islam is bloodthirsty and there is no sign of mercy. To put it mildly it is an extremly lunatic credo that came out of the bosom of an extremely evil man who refused to pray even for his mother who died when that mad man was 6 years old. He cursed his mother Amina saying she was a non-Muslim and he would not intercede on her behalf to Allah to give peace to her soul. Can anyone be more vile than this?
The mad Mohammad should have known that it was only due to his mother's love and affection that he grew up and lived to propagate a cult so dangerous that it is eating the sanity of this world.
Past brutalities have to be treated as an aberration unless it is an ongoing process. Hitler’s own book of Bible did not approve of mass murder. Yet Hitler was one of the greatest butchers of modern history. But unlike Bible Koran is totally destructive and terrfying. More than half the earth was bloodied and blood drenched the earth in spreading its violent message. This is where the difference starts. Islam’s book Koran urges its faithfuls to turn the earth into Islamic ummah at whatever cost as no cost is too great to pay for it.
Islam stands on a tripod of treachery, butchery and debauchery. What hope does the world have to escape from this brutal religion of thugs?
#133Jamie, you must realize the numerals and the Rubyiat all ended by the 11th century. Surely you must realize that these are tiny things you mentioned and are pale in comparison to Maxwell's equations, the multitude of stunning accomplishments by Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla's envisioning the Alternating Current that powers the world today, he outdueling the immensly creative and wealthy Thomas Edison, and he who died penniless, the airplane, and you know that I could fill pages with this. The mosques? It was Muhammod who rode a horse to what is now the Blue Mosque, and proclaimed it a mosque after slaughtering everyone. And what Islam does have is a lot of people, something that portends very bad things today, much more so than before. You may be wrapped up in Isalm Apoligia, but that awful day of reckoning, when you finally realize the truth about this so - called religion, that day will come. Those in Europe, in the Netherlands in 1990 there were about 50,000 Muslims and now there are over a million. See Goerte Wilders fifteen minute segment FITNA. You do the math. And look back thru history and see what Islam has done, this is ludicrious about how there are some good Muslims, there are but they, as noted above, say nothing, and so evil prevails as we have heard again and again when good men say nothing. They are silent out of fear, or they are sitting on the fence to see how this comes out, this is damnation, and those who are quiet in the face of evil have blood on their hands, this includes the Dhimmicrat proxy murdurers who let demonic fanatics out of GITMO. Eric Holder represents a law firm that is representing 19 GITMO detainees, some of which may be innocent, but few if any. Holder and the other feckless cowards think they are getting away with wasting taxpayer money to protect this evil, but if that Day of Reckoning thing works anyting like the fire and brimstone stuff that is preached, they will not fool their Maker.
"Having received permission to loot, the soldiers thronged into the city with joyeous hearts and there, seizing the psssessors and their families, they made the wretched unbelievers weep." The Turkish historian Seaddedin, writing of the fall of Constantinople, 1453
#134Joseph...everybody else here wants to talk about the past...what makes me the one who's bogged down? So ok...let's say you're an 8 year old boy living in Gaza, and an errant Israeli bomb just took out your whole family. Do you really care who started what? Is it possible you might want revenge? Surrounded by poverty and suffering, who would you consider evil?
Mickey...c'mon Mickey...Germany is not a Christian nation? Like...the freakin' Pope is from Germany. 60,000,000 Christians in Germany currently...not all as faithful as the pope, but they claim it as their religion of choice. And I'm descended from Germans who left to escape religous wars between the Catholics and Protestants that plagued the Palatinate in the 17th/18th centuries. What exactly is your definition of a Christian?
Der Alleswisser...what is it with you and Isaac Newton? The Native Americans didn't write the Universal Law of Gravitation either, but that doesn't make them bad people.
So nobody's answered my question yet....if Islam is nothing but pure evil, what are we going to do about it? If lots of people read this stuff and decide you're right, then should we expand America's war against terrorism to include all Muslims? Or will you put on missionary robes and head off to the Middle East to convert these lost souls? Personally, I'd have a bit more respect for your position if I thought the latter option was truly important to you, but nothing about the language here sounds like you're recruiting missionaries.
Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God".
#135Let's put it this way. Why are we here in the US? It's because our forfathers didn't want to be told that they had to be members and worship the state religion Period!! Now, You can worship as you like and I won't tell you that your wrong if I don't like the way that you worship. However I will tell you about what Christ did for me and that he could do the same for you. No craming it down your throut or Bible thomping to it. My church sends people over to other countrys with medical teams to help as needed. When given the chance they tell them about Christ My church sends teams to different states to do the same thing , and tell them about Christ. Are we perfect, do make mistakes even in doing this , yes we do, are we touted for doing this , yes we are. But what keeps us going is that we try to lead people to the Lord by showing the the love of God in a Godly way. I've kinds got off track but just thought that had to be said. Thanks Mickey
#136.
Jamie, what 8 year old Gaza boy? When I am talking about the whole cult of Islam threatening this world with its insane behaviour it sounds bizarre that you are talking about one boy. What do you desire? Islamists to cut your throat for good or blow you up as they did to the twin towers? There is nothing wrong if these Islamic paedophiles like their prophet paedophile want to go to heaven. But Allah tells them they can go to heaven only if they kill people like you and me who have refused to embrace an inhuman credo that defiles and debases humanity. Islam is pure evil and you cannot create sympathy for these killer lunatics with one Gaza boy.
#137Joseph...there's more than just one Gaza boy...I'm asking you to walk a mile in someone else's shoes. We're not fighting zombies...there is real suffering happening to people that is driving them into the arms of radical Islam. Deny it all you want...but saying Al Qaeda represents true Islam is like saying the KKK represents true Christianity. I've stated before I am not a pacifist. I'm 100% in favor of fighting terrorism. But to win that war, we need allies in the Muslim world. You are in no way helping that cause.
Mickey...thank you for actually attempting to answer my question. A little bit of a round about answer, but I applaud your church's efforts to help those in need. Still shaking my head about the Germany not being a Christian nation, but I suppose what you mean is that they aren't as devout as they used to be. I guarantee you though that people who considered themselves good Christians stood by and watched Jews marched off to their death. It is truly frightening the darkness we humans are capable of when our society falls into madness. In my opinion, that same madness that dehumanizes others is what drives fundamentalist Muslims. And what also worries me is the language used here that dehumanizes all of Islam. As I said before, we don't want to become the mirror image of our enemy. We might not be that yet...but referring to Muslim's as "Satan's People" starts us down that slippery slope. Anyway...all in all you seem to have good intentions, and I hope you see that I do as well. Thanks for your comments.
der Alleswisser...I miss you! No response yet? You may well be my favorite radical extremist. Seriously though....I'm still very curious to know your opinions about how to handle the problems you have with Islam. Are we talking about winning Muslims over, or exterminating them? Or perhaps there is another solution I've missed?
Peace out ya'll!
#138saying Al Qaeda represents true Islam is like saying the KKK represents true Christianity.
This is not an accurate statement. The Bible does not call for Jews or Christians to exterminate all those who are of other religions. On the contrary, it urges "love thy neighbor." The Koran calls repeatedly for Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
Are we talking about winning Muslims over, or exterminating them?
This is a very good question. Certainly exterminating them is not the correct approach. Winning them over would be great, and there are efforts underway to reform Islam. The following is from a Saudi columnist earlier this month:
“If we want to protect our young children from one day becoming fanatics or terrorists, we need to provide them with a completely new culture that is radically different than the religious, intellectual, and social culture that has dominated us for many decades, and still does. Instead of teaching your children hostility, or letting someone else teach them hostility, towards those of other religions, teach [them] religious tolerance, which will [ensure that while] they differ from others in religion, they will share with them their common humanity…
“If he listens to the imam at the mosque praying at the top of his voice for [Allah] to destroy [others], ask him to forget what he heard, and to remember to love all and harbor hatred towards none, and [tell him] that the values that [should] motivate him are those of coexistence and cooperation.
“The families whose children have gotten involved in terrorism responded entirely favorably to this kind of hostile culture, and set extremist individuals as models of what was good and proper for their children.
“If you want to keep your son from being a terrorist, you must teach him to read religious texts not in a fanatical, narrow, and literalist manner, but in a rational manner that is open to changes in reality. The families that lost their children to terrorism abandoned them to those who inculcate in them extremist thoughts based on their extremist and ideological view of the Koran and the sunna. [For them,] one hadith or one Koranic verse read and interpreted in an extremist manner becomes an expression of the essence of the religion, whereas the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.”
So there it is. If we tolerate imams who preach hatred, we will inevitably have radical Islamists here who commit violence. If we tolerate such imams in defense of free speech, we will lose our free speech, as we can all see is happening in the Netherlands, England and in France.
So, let’s say we decide we wish not to tolerate such imams. What is the correct approach? It must be something that is in keeping with our rights to free speech, and also protects us from the methods used by radical Islam to bring about acts of violence.
The correct approach is precisely what needs to be discussed.
#139I do like what the Arabs said because it looks like someone in the Arab nation has it right. Now , we are talking tolerance in the best way. I have read lately some papers where the Jews have said that dureing Christmas they are told to have a Merry Christmas . Well the Jews reply was Merry Christmas back to them. This is tolerance in the religous manner because the Jewish people don't believe that Jesus was the son of God but was a prophet. Millions of people have died in the name of religion over the decades not only the Muslims but dureing the crusades the Cholics killed many to get them to become there religion. Of coars I can go on about other reigions . Religion will send you to hell faster than anything. I am not religios but a Christian who has given his soul , heart and life to Jesus Christ. I'm not perfect , just forgiven becuase I make mistakes ofter because I'm human just like you or anyone else . I see the depravity and we have done to each other which some of it is out of ignorance and some is on perpose. You ask what do we do with the terriosts, well yes we try to explain tolerance but what will happen when there not useing tolerance. The hate mongroals raise there children to be terrorists or let th eimmims teach them but yes that is when the partents step in and put a stop to it. If I am takeing my family to a church that teaches such as killing none believers and torchering them I will pull my family out of that mess. I have talked with several Muslims on this subject and I have found that they just listen and believe what the Immim tells them and cannot descuss with any manner of knowledge the Quaran. They just say that they want me to speak to there leaders. I need to know what my family is listening to and all the enuendoes that is comming out of the pulpit and if I don't , that is not a true family leader. It's like leading your family over a cliff and not telling it is there in a fog knowing it's there.I'm rambling now. Hope this has helped someone Mickey
#140Jamie, it is extremely wrong and childish to suppose that ONLY the radical Islamists are threatening the world. There is no such thing as radical Islam in Islam. Islam itself is horrendously radical. Because Man become civilised many of the horrendous ayats of Islam are not being implemented by "non-radical" Islamists countries out of fear of scorn.
Foremost requirement for a Muslim is to swear by the Kalima: La illahi il-ullah...There is no god but allah; Mohammad is his messenger.
Anyone who swears by kalima is a Muslim whether you call him radical or otherwise. Islam is a stinking, rotten credo that emanated from the IMMEASURABLY dark recess of an evil who called himself prophet.
#141Jamie, I hold in great admiration the Isaac Newtons who had enormous brainpower and put it to productive uses for the benefit of mankind. Make no mistake that Isaac Newton was a very troubled man, he the founder of calculus, mechanical physics, the reflecting telescope as he understood that any refracting telescope was limited by dispersion (the rainbow of the colors) and that reflection is not so limited, and on and on, tremendous horsepower mentally. And on his deathbed he reveals to his maid that his most proud accomplishment was to die a virgin???? Ill tempered, hostile, no competitors (except Liebniz, to whom he revealed too much), he who had the charm of a bouquet of ***holes. But someone who watches an apple fall to the ground and figures out that the moon is in freefall as well, yes, one must take his hat off to this, to stand in awe. And Mozart, dies penniles, and Nikola Tesla, peniless, miserable death. Louis Ampere, his father guillotined, his wife dies young, on his gravestone, "peace at last." But he revealed one of Maxwell's equations. Yes, admiration.
But the point is, Islam could never, and just look at the evidence in the history books, bound by this evil religion, they never will, they produce nothing but murderers and victims, and a death spiral it is. The kids in Gaza, a shame but doomed. The saddest thing is that America would do anything to help them, but the religion forbids it. Americans are a very generous and good people, but if the Gazans find that America has anything to do with some initiative, they are immediately for the opposite, regardless of merit. Look at the billions squandered on these people by inept but at least trying to make things better for these people, the Jimmy Carters, Bill Clintons, and what do we have to show for this? Absolutely nothing, worse than ever. And now the Israelis see this (although they apparently have some Liberals who hope for the best, but it simply is not in the cards, this is a struggle to the death, Israel and Islam). It is the religion. The religion is evil. Just look at what Islam does, look at the track record since the seventh century. Is there hope? I am afraid not. The only hope is for Islamics, the great majority, the evil ones, the lowest percent estimate I have seen is 10 % who are hard core demonic. After the 2005 London bombings a poll showed 26% supported the terrorists. This is fatal. On this site elsewhere you will see an estimate of 36% that are evil. But the other 64%, or 90% at best, what do they do? Silence.
#142Any solution outside of from within Islam is doomed. But have you seen any great Islamics since Muhammod's time? Who would be running Saudi Arabia if a general election was held? That would be Osama bin Laden. The Palistineans voted for who? That would be Hamas and that would be Iran. And what is in the charter of Hamas? That would be the destruction of Israel. So is it reasonable to expect Islam to find a Ghandi or a Churchill? No, sadly no. Do I feel sad at the plight of those Palistinean children who were born into this innocent? Yes I do, I would do anything to help them, I feel for all decent people. The people of Smyrna, Anatolia, the slaughtered 1.5 million simply because of being Unbelievers, yes, sadness, they who were unfortunate enough to be born into that. Islam is the most destructive and evil entity the world has ever known, and I am not a religious person, but I suspect this is the embodiment of evil, Lucifer. It is appalingly evil and I do not see a solution. The majority of people on the planet are good people, but the evil ones are much more determined, and they have prevailed for fourteen centuries, and I fear, expect, this will just get worse and worse. Evil has a way of prevailing. It did in Smyrna and all of Turkey after Smyrna, the history books have been rewritten by the British, French, Italians, and yes, Americans. All for the oil, to appease Islamic Turkey, ignored the evil and even worse, blamed it on the victims, Greeks and Armenians. I somehow feel that mankind is doomed by the sweeping of this under the rug, and worse, praising the wrongdoers and blaming the victims.
If there is a Supreme Being in the starry canopy above (a la Beethoven's Ninth Symphony), this single thing dooms mankind.
“Joy! Joy, bright spark of divinity, daughter of Elysium, fire – inspired we tread thy sanctuary. Thy magic power re-unites all that custom has divided, All men become brothers under the sway of thy gentle wings.” -- Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony Number 9 in D Minor, Opus 125, “Choral,” 1824, Symphonic Rendering of Fredrich Schiller's An die Freude (Ode to Joy)
#143My ancestors owned slaves. My ancestors were Christians. But would you consider anyone owning a slave today a Christian? Thankfully our culture has come a long, long way. But if we could go back in time just a hundred years and you argued for something such as a woman's right to vote, conservative minds of that era would consider you to have "dangerous" liberal beliefs. Blacks were denied equal rights and the majority of whites were as silent about the situation as many Muslims are about terrorism. But that didn't make them bad people. Society is capable of exerting extreme pressure on individuals who stand up against the status quo. And unfortunately, those who do have the courage to make that stand often risk ending up dead.
Vic Rubenfeld...your Saudi columnist said some great things, and I'd like to submit his words as one piece of evidence for Der Alleswisser that not all Muslims are standing by silent (there are more..but we don't have all day, do we?). An ally like that is worth more than any Smart Bomb in the war against terror. President Bush lost us a lot of friends with his "our way or the highway" approach, and I only hope our new president can repair that damage. If we can build up enough trust and support with the people of Pakistan to make them a true ally, perhaps we can take this fight back to the organization who started it.
To clarify, I think Arabs have a bigger problem with America than they do with Christianity specifically. For example, let's look at Iran. In 1953 we supported the overthrow of their democratically elected government, and installed a pro-Western dictatorship. Favoring access to their petroleum fields and concern about Russian influence over human rights, we essentially laid the foundation for the Iranian Revolution of 1979. I imagine our resentment over that incident led to our support of Iraq's invasion of Iran. If I'm not mistaken, our "ally" used chemical weapons against the Iranians...though I have no idea if anyone in our government was aware of it at the time. The point is...Iran is one messed up place, but our hands ain't clean. America has done a lot of good things for a lot of people, but we haven't given everybody there a reason to trust us.
Palestine. Too many people that I talk to have no idea where the Gaza Strip even is, much less what conditions there are like. It's easy to judge suicide bombers as evil, but we might want to take a closer look at what's cooking in the pot they came out of. The Israeli's have every right to defend themselves, but recent military operations seem only to exacerbate the situation. The ability of Palestinians to move about is restricted, and thus any chance of economic growth is constricted. Poverty is an environment extremist with resources love to exploit.
Joseph....what denomination do you consider the most dangerous...Sunni, Shi'a, Sufism, the Ibadi's? Who are the holiest Christians...Catholics, Baptist, Presbyterians, or Methodist? Have you ever met someone who agreed with you about everything? If a child in Africa is stolen from his family and forced to fight as a soldier, and that child commits horrific acts of violence before himself being killed, will God send him to Hell? Do you think Jesus would drop bombs on Muslims? Do you think these are childish questions?
#144Islam spread by brutally crushing others. History has recorded this unusually cruel behaviour. In India, for instance, many of the Indian towns were first completely ravaged and vandalized and brutalised. Only a handful of people were left with most of the men put to death in the first flurry of brutal attack. Not left with any belongings a handful of women were seen cowering barely having a piece of cloth to cover their shame as they hid in a corner naked. The Islamists plunderers then set on to convert after raping the women and children. This is too Satanic to describe. This is how Islam spread.
I am sure the Bastard, Paedophile Prophet Mohammad is rotting in hell and is penis is being roasted in hellfire.
#145The Koran calls repeatedly for Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
Vic Rubenfeld...I touch base on this again because I think it critically important that I understand what you are saying. The Saudi columnist states in the letter that you posted...."the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.” This statement seems to contradict your earlier assertion of what the Koran calls for, but I'm assuming you give merit to his words since you're using this guy to back up your point.
It seems to me that there are some very basic principles that respectable Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, and even atheists can agree on. You obviously have a lot of hits on this website, so it's fair to say you have more influence on more people than I ever will. I implore that you temper the negative treatment of Islam with genuine concern for the welfare and concern of our Arab allies.
Mickey...if you truly believe that there are Muslims who are good people, will you not speak up when others say that they are all pure evil and can't be trusted or worked with in any way?
#146Joseph....Not once have I denied Islam has a dark history. But so does Christianity. The Koran probably has a dark side, but I know for a fact the Bible does. I so wish life were as clear for me as it is for you...us against them, good against evil. Your world is pristine in it's elegant design...so much like Star Wars. Use the force Luke! Resist the temptations of the dark side!
Life for me is cloudy. I see good and evil everywhere...even in myself. You're right....I'm a fool. The only difference between us is that I realize it. The real world is full of fools who's tiny minds can never grasp the awesome entirety of events that surround them as they muddle day by day through life and the infintesimally small position they hold in both time and space.
#147Certainly there are good Muslims. Paul Saladin who has posted here before I believe is a good man who does try to make a difference. And yes, there were Muslim Beethovens, Teslas, Gausses,... but the religion smothered them, would not let them contribute, as this goes against Allah having preordained everything. But the Paul Saladdins of the Muslim world are our only hope, it simply cannot be dictated, bombed, .... that cannot prevail, only the goodness of mankind, what is right and wrong, only a struggle for morality has any hope of prevailing.
The fundamental problem is that any Muslim who speaks out for good over evil is in trouble with the Quran, and can even be put to death for Apostasy. It is not permitted to question the Quran, it is seen to be not even created but always there, those who have questioned this before have been beheaded.
On page 36 of "Defeating Jihad," by Serge Trifkovic, you have "Of all major religions known to man, the teaching of Islam makes it the least amenable to dialogue with other faiths. Its legal code, Sharia, cannot be penetrated by reason, and the very attempt is frrbidden heresy.......The notion of popular sovereignty is heretical, as power belongs to Allah alone. ...... The state MUST be a theocracy ruled by the Khalif as Allah's regent on earth, or else it is illegitimate. Giving primary allegiance to a secular non-Islamic state and willingly respecting its commandments even when they contradict the word of Allah as revealed by the Prophet would be, under Sharia, an act of apostasy punishable by death. Since Muhammad is the final prophet, there CAN BE NO FURTHER DEVELOPMENT IN ANY JUDICIAL MATTERS WHERE THE KURAN AND SUNNA PROVIDE GIUDANCE. (caps added for emphasis). This undermines the possibility of rational civic debate in Muslim nations and limits the ability of Muslims to partake in good faith in the civic life of a non-Muslim society."
Basically it is punishable by death to question the religion, and for this reason, unlike Christianity, there can be no historical progression. This is the fatal flaw of Islam, and it is why you get the silence from Muslim world as to what is right and wrong. Even worse, the general reaction of the Muslim world to 9/11 was delight. You had the Palistineans replaying the airplanes going into the Twin Towers over and over and dancing in the streets. And we have given billions to these people and done more than anyone else to help them. The Europeans as usual, sit on the sidelines and watch America do everything while they do nothing and then criticise America. This is why the hope for Europe is so dim, as America was the key in liberating them from the Nazis. No America, no victory in Europe. And they have lived under the protection of the American Nuclear Umbrella and the US Army in Germany since the end of WWII, with the notion by America that this would make them good Allies and goodness would prevail in the world. But this just is not working out, they are useless as allies. Especially the French and Spainards. And it appears that Europe will fall into darkness, not good for mankind everywhere. Only China and India, due to their population numbers may survive. What protects America, or at least has, is two oceans and Mexico and Canada as neighbors. But there is some alarm about the stability of Mexico, and I would not be surprised, I even expect it, that Islamics will or already are flocking to Mexico to try to penetrate America through those porous borders, knowing that America is being ruled by the clueless proxy murdurers Dhimmicrats who are letting evil go from GITMO.
#148China, best stop your birth control, this evil is coming at the rest of the world with overwhelming population growth, and if you saw the movie "Darkness Falls," Islam may bring that movie's ending to the world, not in a theater. That at least, is their intent.
We may think that Islam will follow a historical progression as has Christianity but there is no factual basis for this expectation, as their religion strictly forbids it, and if any Muslim speaks out, he is subject to death. To convert from Islam is punishable by death. This alone reveals the evil pith of Islam. The Sufi Islamics, somewhat mystical but not the demonic Whabbiasts of Saudi Arabia, according to the above mentioned Serge Trifkovic in that book, are "as relevant in Islam as the snake handler religions of Appalachia."
And Jamie, do not be fooled by those sweet sounding verses of the Quran, as Islam, when there are contradictions in the Quran, apply the principle of abrogation. Islam has divinely - mandated lying to Unbelievers to promote Islam, known as al Taqiyya, and so they quote verses like "to kill a single human being is to kill all of mankind" from the earlier verses of Mecca, while fully knowing these are all abrogated by the final chapter of the Quran, Sura 9, and as the latter verses render the earlier verses meaningless, most Americans are just too ignorant to know they are being lied to. You see a semi literate posting from time to time here, about how peaceful Islam is. It is not, this is the Greatest Lie Ever Told. And there you have the verse of the Sword, this from Trifkovic's book above mentioned:
***”The Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5: ‘fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft – Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (This is the well – known aspect of Islam, in brief, “Convert or die.”***”This single verse, The Verse of the Sword, Islamic scholars agree that it abrogates 124 earlier verses – the ones that are quoted most regularly by Islam’s apologists to prove its tolerance and benevolence as a ‘religion of peace.’” (This brings memories of the mantra and most enduring quote from the movie The Usual Suspects, “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.” Just tell the Unbelievers the Happy Stuff. They are stupid and elect stupid leaders.)
I talk to the Islamic people I meet here in America, and all seem decent and good, they are the first victims of Islam, as Earnest Renan said 150 years ago. And so here they feel safe, the girls go to school, they wear blue jeans with their head scarves on, while in their nation of origin they may be beheadded for this, along with their teachers, for commiting the sin of educating girls. This is the biggest sin of all: denying half of their people the right to contribute, and treating them as less than equal.
Which will prevail, Good or Evil? Will Darkness Fall on Mankind?
#149Der Alleswisser....you say you've met Islamic people who seem decent and good. When you meet them, do you let them know how evil you think their religion is? Or do you say nothing to their face and settle for stabbing them in the back here? The Koran contradicts itself...your point? The Bible contradicts itself too....an eye for an eye in the Old Testament, turn the other cheek in the New. Many Christians read the same Bible, yet come to different conclusions about the message. Islam is no different...Muslims spend as much time arguing with each other as they do with us. God's children...everywhere fighting.
You spend so much time researching history...can you tell us about the impact created by Europe's colonization of the Middle East? Was it positive? Do you think the random lines they drew in the sand without regard to culture laid a strong foundation for the growth of those nations? Has our support of dictatorships and brutal governments that served our purposes endeared America to the hearts of the people there?
You say....
"The notion of popular sovereignty is heretical, as power belongs to Allah alone. ...... The state MUST be a theocracy ruled by the Khalif as Allah’s regent on earth, or else it is illegitimate"
How many Islamic states are theocracies? Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only ones I came up with. I'll tell you this though...I'm very much perplexed by the idea of Turkey joining the European Union. My message here is that Islam is not pure evil, and that we can work with Muslim allies to defeat terrorism. That doesn't make me Islam's #1 cheerleader. We can live and let live, but cultural differences to me seem too great to start tying that kind of knot. As far as Muslim immigrants go, as long as they obey the law, they can believe whatever they want. In the opinion of many Christians, and according to the text, I'm going straight to Hell....do not pass go, do not collect $200. If any Muslim believes they're obligated to speed up my journey, I would remind them of "[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors" As long as I don't oppress them, the Koran says they gotta' let me be. This is not me being suckered in by a "sweet sounding verse". I've forced myself to read bits and pieces of this book, and God is it boring. I'm not what most people would consider Christian, but I find reading about Jesus a bit more inspirational. As for the Old Testament and Revelations...dark and violent...a fascinating read but I wouldn't let my kids watch it if they made it into a movie.
#150You were talking about the Bible contridicting itself , well , let me see, I read a verse that said Judas went out and hanged himself, another verse somewhere else says do thy likwise. Well I wonder why the Bible told me to do that. Oh, did I say that?! Take the Bible out of context and thats what you get. And if you can't seem to understand the Bible , your reading someone elses mail. I have problems with some blacks. Does that mean that I'm to tell everyone that I meet of my problem with them That would be stupid. Something else, why is it that it's the men and not the women who like your religion. Maybe it's the vergins your allah has waiting for you ?? Were are the virgins comming from? Ask your women if they love sharia law? I don't think so!!!!!! Mickey
#151Jamie, who is talking about the dark history of anyone? We are talking of the current and future history of a stinking, dangerous and virulent credo that seeks to annihilate all of us. First ask yourself whether Koran is similar to any other religious book. If you say yes than I have nothing to talk to you. It will be madness to do so and waste of my time. Koran is the most deadliest of all sins let loose on an unsuspecting mankind by dark, evil forces. Make no mistake about that. Let this sink into you as quickly as possible. If still you want to use sophistry and fool yourself thinking that you are fooling me I can only feel sorry for you and the mental state you are being in.
#152Mickey...I was replying to Der Alleswisser's assertion that the Koran contradicts itself by pointing out that the Bible does as well. It's fair in neither case. As you say...those contradictions often show up when people take things out of context.
You say if I can't understand the Bible, I'm reading someone else's mail? I really have no idea at all what you're trying to say there.
Perhaps my question to Der Alleswisser regarding his interactions with Muslims was worded a bit too strongly. But my curiousity remains, has he ever gotten around to knowing any of these people he's met well enough that they knew he considered their religion evil? Perhaps more nicely worded, but also more boring. Nothing like a nice incendiary comment to stir up another long winded diatribe.
My religion? Is this sarcasm? I don't like even like Islam, which is part of the great irony that I'm here defending it. I'm going to have to assume that either 1)you've only read about half of what I've written in my prior posts, or 2) you're making a joke. In which case....good one, Mickey. BTW, you misspelled virgins.
#153Joseph...Printing in all bold letters doesn't help your fanatical ramblings make any more sense to me. Hate Islam all you want....that's really fine with me. But we're fighting a war against terrorism to fight that's hard enough already without you trying to get us to take on all 1.2 billion Muslims.
Let's focus here people....what is our #1 goal? Except for Joseph, I feel the rest of us have pretty much established that we can't kill all the Muslims in the world, and even if we could Jesus probably wouldn't approve of that approach. I think Der Alleswisser has pretty much given up hope for victory and is awaiting the arrival of the Islamic Hordes with a loaded shot gun and enough historical info to bore the life out of anyone within a 50 mile radius. Vic Rubenfeld agreed with me that the correct approach to the problem needs to be discussed, and then has remained completely silent...most waiting for one of us to say something interesting. And Mickey fell asleep halfway through the discussion and now thinks I'm a terrorist.
Does anyone have anything new and constructive to say....or are we just beating a dead Arabian horse here?
#154BTW...if you weren't able to think of our #1 goal...it's defeating terrorism and growing peace in the Middle East. Can I hear a "yes we can!"......
"crickets chirping"
#155I hate it when either Spellcheck or me fall asleep but I'm back now I guess. What I was eluding to was the Bible is more understood if prayed over before each time you read it and the bible is a composition of many letters written. In a nut shell I love the Islamic people but hate there religion. I have tryed to talk with them but they must not understand there on Quaran because they just want me to talk to there Imiem ( however it's spelt) not understanding it enough for dialogue. I am told the Muslims here don't believe all of the Quaran . However what lead to the father killing his own daughter while she was on the phone with 911 or the husband that cut his wifes head off. Is Sharia law or what. As a Christian I pray for the words to try to turn there heards from such a demonic belief. Mickey
#156I do not get into a deep discussion with Islamics as they are strangers. I play very naive and I suppose that could be called deceitful, perhaps my version of al Taqiyya, but I am not trying to promote any religion, I am simply using the world as my labratory, trying to assess who these people are and are they of CAIR (Hamas, a fifth column here). Over and over again I hear their hopelessness with regard to their home countries: "Is Morocco a nice country,,,,,no it is not ----- Is Pakistan a nice country ........ lots of problems-----will you ever go back ,,,,,,,no, all my children are here ,,,,,,,,is there any hope for Israel and Islam ------shakes head ------ why all the trouble with Islam in Mumbai and India ......it is the Muslims----they try to kill everyone ---- why cannot the Muslims in Pakistan get along with the Indians,,,,,will it ever end.....just looks at me. Yes, I do not let them know what I know, I come across as just a curious Westerner. And this curious one, "Why so much trouble with Islam......Islam teaches you that if you (touches my hand gently) that this is an unforgivable sin. Now this touch was obviously harmless totally and that was the point, I could not tell if this was al Taqiyya or genuine, these guys were very polite and operated a restaurant (Greek believe it or not with all the stuff with Smyrna, Thrace, and now Macedonia, the Armenian genocide) but it did have a mideast flavor as well.
Loaded shotgun, waiting for the Islamic hoardes? Not here, or at least not yet, and maybe they will actually shed their religion for the free Western vision, but maybe not, their religions forbids it. It really is a battle of Good vs. Evil, they have no chance to find goodness in their native countries as there are mosques everywhere and nothing else is allowed and to convert is apostasy, they are ruled by a terribly evil few men, as Earnest Renan said 150 years ago. It is only here in America that this can happen, it cannot happen in Europe, as even they will tell you that their society is not as open to foreigners as is America, and so this is where there needs to be fear due to these riots when ANYTHING happens regardless of country.
#157Even a Netherlander told me just two days ago, "A black man could never be voted President in my country." Not that this a good thing mind you, it could be the end of greatness, as you may have noticed that with each bailout the market tumbles again, as we are just printing money, "Generational Theft," more dollars chasing the same goods and services, causing inflation, as this is good for government as the government is the biggest debtor of all and inflation causes a cash flow from lenders and debtors, and so the government is able to repay obligations with money that is not worth as much as it was when obligated. The Chinese are very concerned about this, and it could trigger a global recession. But most pernicious of all is that the Democrats are buying votes, pandering to losers, illegals, ... and before you go off on the needs of needy people keep in mind that charity is a wonderful thing, but to take from people who have paid their mortgages and made sound decisions is stealing. And it is done to buy votes, fully 40% of Americans pay no taxes at all and so now they will get a check from people who do --- this is socialism pure and simple.
But Islam, it is very incremental what has happened in Europe and I fear that some are going to be very shocked at what is to come there. Is America a different animal due to its openess and freedom ( at least before the pandering ad hominem socialist hand out Democrats), in that kind of open society goodness at least has a chance. Could a historical progression occur for the first time here or will it be just more al Taqiyya? It is this generation's problem to figure out, not mine, mine was Viet Nam (perhaps the wrong war and maybe not even a good one). The premise for that war was the Domino Theory, all of Asia falls to Communism should Viet Nam fall. That may have not been true, but it could have the right slogan for the wrong war, it may be that if Pakistan and/or Turkey goes DemonicStan as did Iran the global sitution deterioates into chaos.
#158This is the assertion of Serge Trifkovic, the aforementioned in "Defeating Jihad.' That is, should there ever be democracy in Turkey or elsewhere it will be just like Hamas in Palistine, and Israel will have to use its nuclear weapons to survive. It may anyway, if you picked up on that little comment about how GWBush (surprisingly) withheld bunker busting bombs, and so may unwittingly forced Israel to open the bottle for the genie.
And finally, it is also said that (by Trifkovic) that it was not that Islam defeated and brought down the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, as they think, but it was Viet Nam that drained the Soviet Union and so their collapse in Afghanistan was certain anyway.
Is he correct? Meet Mr. Trifkovic in the dvd, get it on Netflix or anywhere, "Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam." Make your own decision.
#159You guys must have been tearing your hair out everytime George Bush called Islam a "religion of peace". And what a terrible waste of time, blood, and money you must consider the war in Iraq....by your logic, anything we might build there would crumble and fall because Islam continues to be their source of spiritual inspiration.
Let me throw a shocker out there for everybody....I voted for Obama. Will he be able to fix the mess that he inherited? I don't know. I do know that even if the stimulus package pulls this economy out of a nose dive, if peace somehow miraculously runs rampant through the Middle East, and if science can find cleaner, more efficient sources for energy and fuel....it still won't matter to some people. Not one of the Presidents carved into Mount Rushmore was loved by everyone. No president is perfect, and it's silly to think that one man can fix this world. He is flesh and blood....and you can say you think he's an idiot...but please respect that he loves this country, and he is trying to do what he thinks is best for our nation....just like Bush did. I voted for him because I believe he sincerely he is the exact kind of leader we need right now...someone who brings out the best in others. Someone who is able to build bridges between bitter rivals. Someone who can accept when he's wrong, and steer the ship back in the right direction. My opinion...many will disagree...you'll get your chance to vote him out in 4 years. As for now, it's only been one month and it is extremely way too early to start drawing conclusions.
Der Alleswisser....I asked a question, and I'll ask it again. With all your knowledge of the Middle East, can you explore the long term effects of European colonialism on Islamic nations, if any? Did the lines drawn in the sand that created these nations provide any realistic hope of them having a chance at prosperity, or were they perhaps an attempt to ensure these places would remain weak and divided? I mean, Sunnis and Shias didn't like each other then...did they expect that to change?
#160Mickey....take what you're saying and turn it around... what percentage of Christians 1) have read all of the Good Book, and 2) agree on what they've read? Yes...people use religion to justify their insanity...like the people in Heaven's Gate who killed themselves in 1997. But the average person, regardless of religion, is not that hard core.
When someone dedicates their life to religion, it takes several years of intense study to become an "expert". It's there job to answer the tough questions...not the average Mr. Islam or Mr. Christian you might meet on the street.
Pray for all of us...treat others as you would have them treat you...do good things. But if I might make a suggestion, you will never win converts by approaching a discussion from a condescending angle...which whether you intended it is what I perceived when you mistook me for a Muslim and started rambling about the virgins Allah has waiting for me. If I were actually a Muslim, I probably would have been offended.
#161Vik Rubenfield seems nervous when someone condemns Islam.
Make no mistake. Unless the world condemns Islam unequivocally then only we can control the menace.
#162Vik Rubenfeld...How do you answer Joseph? If you don't agree with me that we should refrain from Islamophobic language that isolates us from our Muslim allies in our efforts to fight the terrorists, then where do you stand?
#163One debate at a time per customer, Jamie. You and I are currently involved in another discussion in this thread.
#164Islam is a cult that was propagated by a paedophile and treacherous megalomainac who called himself Prophet. Can this be denied?
Islam has caused enough havoc to decency and decorum. It is going to die a natural death like communism one day. I think that is why the Islamic terrorists are fluttering violently and killing themselves like moths with a vengeance as they know that Islam has become a rotten, putrid egg .
By the way the paedophile Mohammad had told his terrified followers to do the opposite of what others (civilised world) does so as to look different. I had nauseated when I used to visit some Muslim households because as per paedophile's instructions many would not take bath and even spit inside their houses as the kufrs spit outside.
An evil who called himself prophet will not pray for his mother because she was not a Muslim as she had died before the pervert thought about Islam.
World should throw away all niceties and condemn Islam once and for all. Politicians follow a policy of appeasement calling "Islam a religion of peace!" This is adding fuel to the fire. Calling Islam a peaceful religion is like comparing Hitler with Mother Teresa.
#165I was brought to England in 1944 at 6yrs of age with my brother & 2sisters, my father had just left army in1943,my mother joined him here, they both worked hard to obtain accomodation before bringing us over,we had a good up bringing,went to school,church on sunday, later I was conscripted & signed on as a regular, got demobbed,married,had 3 daughters wed & have 3 g/children.
I am now 72, & over the last sixty odd years I have seen many people come to England,Irish,Jews,many Europeans,W/indians,Asians, East Asians & many more.A lot of these suffered verbal,racial & sometimes physical abuse,but they all mingled in to the communities.worked together & mixed with their neighbours,went to their places of worship,made no demands for special treatment to their local authorities,they accepted & abided by the laws of the land,contented with their lot [education,health service& benefit system unknown in some of their homelands] So can someone please explain to me why there many demands from the muslims?they want their own schools, dress codes,laws[Sharia],more mosques,& [larger ones]& we are constantly being told not to say or do anything which might be offensive towards Islam yet we are constantly rebuked over our celebrations,EASTER,CHRISTMAS, Nativity plays.
Jews Indians, Sikhs,Buddists,Chinese,no complaints from these.What about Christianity, older than Islam, we dont take offence at EID,YOM KIPPUR DWALHI,ST Patricks Day parade in B,ham is the 3rd largest in the world,thousand of people,all nationalities watch it. So to all of you out there who are not happy with the British way of life,you are quite welcome to leave.
Democracy is fine for me,I can protest at anything I dont like,wear what I like,say what I like,as long as I dont offend others [try wearing any other religious decoration in an Islamic country & find out the result].Oh,did I mention the country I came from, [IRELAND] but happy to be here. this letter is not racist or Islamaphobic, just an observation by a contented citizen
#166Joe Boyd is proving my point. The politicians have been so nasty as to portray Islam as a “religion of peace” that even a peace loving guy like Joe needs to say in self-defence that “his letter is not racist or Islamaphobic, just an observation by a contented citizen.” That is why I am crying hoarse urging world community to stand up and condemn the barbaric Islam unequivocally. This is better than saying “these terrorists are only a handful unlike the large mass of Muslims who love peace.”A Muslim is a Muslim by whatever way you describe him. His ultimate loyalty is to his paedophile prophet. He is not a Muslim if he does not swear by the evil kalima first. This means he is actually reiterating his allegiance to the paedophile who justified his marriage to 6 year old Ayesha saying “the consent of a virgin is her silence.”
#167Joe Boyd isn't proving your point. He's proving that some Muslims are jerks. That's easy to do because they're people and some people think the world revolves around what they want.
So there are Muslims in England who don't want to assimilate? There are plenty of Mexicans here guilty of the same thing. Does that mean we should attack their religion?
Making the leap from complaining about political correctness run amok to condemning an entire religion is like trying to jump the Grand Canyon on a Big Wheel.
#168We can wake up a sleeping man; not one who is pretending to. This is the problem with Jamie. It is shocking that Jamie should equate an utterly evil credo like Islam with poor Mexicans.
Who is this jamie? An ISlamofascist?
#169Mexicans will never present the danger that Islamic do, their religion is basically the same as ours and their religion does not tell them to slay the unbeliever in every strategm, and to smite the heads off of the unbeliever. Not an Us vs. Them thing here, just Democrats who like to give illegals our tax dollars so they will vote Democrat. The problem here is us, not Mexicans, and there is a preponderence of evidence that the problem with Islam, not just now but for the last fourteen centuries, their albatross is their religion, and we address it sooner or later. The choice to put this off will become harder as their numbers grow and more come to Europe and here, with our politicians ignoring the danger in favor of Political Correctness and Multiculturalism, this silly notion of abandoning the democratic concept of a people viz. a time, a place, and a value set.
#170In reply to JOSEPH, there is nothing wrong with any religion, the wrong is done by the people running it. As for peodophiles you only have to look at SOME not all catholic priests, & the atrocities committed by them around the world,even some of the nuns were frusrated sadists, ARTANE industrial school in DUBLIN,EIRE, had an appalling record of verbal,physical,sexual abuse & murder which was covered up by the church & government in ireland, a lot of these priest were relocated to all parts of the world, there are no records of this chool pre 1940, apparently there was a fire which destroyed a lot of documentation,[very convenient].the catholic church should recind the vows of chastity & allow priests to marry,as they have feelings & emotions like us all, not saying this would stop the peodophiles, as we have them all around us in our lives.
needless to say there are many good,true,honest & caring members in the clergy, St Peters in Rome is very beautiful, but I found it obcene, the wealth,icons, tapestries, & the art,Did Jesus Christ live in a place like that?.
no, around the world,religion is big buisiness, they rake it in,yet half the world starves,As for ISLAM, what are all the rich ARAB countries doing about places like DARFUR & other impoverished MUSLIM states,
I THINK I HAVE SAID IT ALL
#171Joseph....you don't have to be Islamic to feel that Muslims are both good and evil, just like every other human being on Earth. As far as my religion goes, I grew up Baptist and still have fondness for the parts of the Bible written with red letters. But since I don't believe you absolutely have to accept Jesus to make it to heaven, I suppose I don't qualify as a true Christian anymore. I enjoy reading the Tao Te Ching...but that's not really a religion...more like a philosophy.
I consider myself a moderate Democrat. I voted for Obama. If you want to insult me, you should really go more with a Socialist angle. My Republican friends would be the fascists (just kidding people...don't bombard me with posts). Anyway, enough about me.
Joe Boyd....Excellent point about Arab countries not reaching out to their neighbors in Sudan. I really wish our leaders would give that sentiment a shout out. Maybe we should do more to help as well, but I think overall our two nations have excellent track records regarding humanitarian aid. We just need to do a better job of getting that message out to people...for the last 8 years our marketing skills and PR people have sucked (in my humble opinion).
#172It is too naïve for someone to say that “there is nothing wrong with any religion, the wrong is done by the people running it” when exceptionally evil credo like Islam is concerned. Yes, Church had committed infinte number of atrocities. So what? Is the Church doing it today. Why? Because Christianity does not teach its followers to kill and maim as Islam does. Islam is unique. Please do not compare it with any other ISM. It is frustrating to explain this Ad nauseam. I could have partially expected Islamic argument that kafirs have no right to live and must be put to death had this evil Islam been an ancient religion like others. The upstart was born recently in the chronology of civilization and he perverted all good human values. There is no need to list all of them here. Islam an upstart credo that was bandied as religion has been murderous from day one. Wiping out humanity has been its goal. Bani Qurayzas were its first mass victims. It has a negative outlook about others and all civilized symbols and art are its target. Even the fountainhead of Islam that every faithful has to swear and utter to confirm he is a Muslim starts with a negative. “No god but…” Obviously when you start emphatically that there is no god then logically can allah be a god? Why pervert an otherwise positive statement like “There is only one god and He is Allah” Islam has no loyalty to the adopted country. It is a different matter that some Muslims may have shown loyalty. This does not make all Muslims the same. Exceptions cannot prove a rule. A good Muslim exists like a good criminal who wants to be reformed. It is Nature’s Las that for ever thing there is an exception. It should not be used to buttress an exceptionally cruel credo like Islam. God know what more catastrophes the paedophiles are planning!
#173It is too naïve for someone to say that “there is nothing wrong with any religion, the wrong is done by the people running it” when exceptionally evil credo like Islam is concerned. Yes, Church had committed infinte number of atrocities. So what? Is the Church doing it today. Why? Because Christianity does not teach its followers to kill and maim as Islam does. Islam is unique. Please do not compare it with any other “ISM.”It is frustrating to explain this Ad nauseam. I could have partially accepted the vile Islamic argument that kafirs have no right to live and must be put to death had this evil Islam been an ancient religion like others. The upstart was born recently in the chronology of civilization and he perverted all good human values. There is no need to list all of them here. Islam an upstart credo that was bandied as religion has been murderous from day one. Wiping out humanity has been its goal. Bani Qurayzas were its first mass victims. It has a negative outlook about others and all civilized symbols and art are its target. Even the fountainhead of Islam that every faithful has to swear and utter to confirm he is a Muslim starts with a negative. “No god but…” Obviously when you start emphatically that there is no god then logically can allah be a god? Why pervert an otherwise positive statement like “There is only one god and He is Allah” Islam has no loyalty to the adopted country. It is a different matter that some Muslims may have shown loyalty. This does not make all Muslims the same. Exceptions cannot prove a rule. A good Muslim exists like a good criminal who wants to be reformed. It is Nature’s Las that for ever thing there is an exception. It should not be used to buttress an exceptionally cruel credo like Islam. God know what more catastrophes the paedophiles are planning!
#174
#175From "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain....
An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"
The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.
"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
#176Joseph...What do you offer us other than destruction? You are full of such bitterness and self rightousness that I can only imagine a Muslim must have done something really, really bad to you.
I offer this to you, which I copied from somewhere else just for you...
Do not turn people off with your religion. Do not criticise,
condemn or complain, instead fatten those not sharing your faith, as
yet, with friendship. We do not see things as they are but we see things as we are.
TEXT:
Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you”.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. . . ..
16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to
associate with people of low position.. .. 17 Do not repay anyone evil
for evil.
Tearing things down comes easy at first. But if you think Islam can be brought down by the sword (or in this case, your forked tongue), then you are sadly mistaken. Following the path Jesus left for us is a difficult road to trek, but are the fruits not sweeter for those who grow peace? Put another way, you'll catch more bees with honey than vinegar.
#177Jamie I never said kill all Muslims and be done away with it, did I? I am just warning woolly-headed Chamberlains not to take Muslims or their faith at face value. Never make the mistake of equating Islam with a religion. It is the credo of a lunatic who was also a rapist par excellence. He snatched his OWN step-son Zayed’s wife. When Zayed knew Mohammad had him cold he divorced his wife and this monster prophet “married” her and took her against all norms of basic human decency. No Muslim has ever harmed me. Instead many have helped me and I am grateful to them. I have a few good friends with whom I keep talking on the phone. So don’t try to confuse the issue. Can you answer a simple question. If all religions are pathways to God why is Saudi Arabia not allowing anyone to pray except one who is a Muslim? Why does Muslims keep quiet over this atrocious behaviour. It is so because Islam is what it is. By inventing goodness in a Muslim who is loyal to his religion you are gilding a cruel credo with pious lilies. I thought 9/11 would have opened the eyes of the world. It seems many Chamberlains are still beholden to this evil cult.
#178The Mark Twain thing, and yes, there are a few truculent verses in the Bible, the smashing of children's heads against rocks if they are enemies, the death of those who work on the Sabbath, but read Robert Spencer's "Politically - Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades" and see how disproportionate those verses are in the Quran as compared to the Bible. And most importantly of all, note that those Priests who were pedophiles were prosected, and no, the Catholic church does not preach with waving swords and talking about rocks saying "there is Jew behind me so come over here and kill him" and other such evil prattle that passes as religion. Something is wrong with these people, badly wrong, and I suspect it is the religion that perputuates the masses antiintelluctualism, rigid adherance to the Quran and no progress in science and culture whatsoever. If they did not have oil, they would have nothing to offer but a few figs and pistachios and maybe some pottery. Is it a chicken and the egg thing, do they remain this way because of the religion, or does the religion cause them to remain this way.
Christians have behaved stupidly before, the Catholic church put Gallieo on trial for talking about falling bodies and motion, Copernicus was in fear for his life to the extent that he offered a red heron to mitigate the impact of him saying the sun and not the earth was at the center of the solar system.
#179America put a man on the moon long ago in 1969, and Islam's biggest contribution is what, a sextant or something, and basically nothing since the eleventh century. It cannot be explained away, something is badly wrong here and ignoring it in favor of Multiculturalism is silly.
Islamic countries help in Darfur?? Did you notice that they did next to nothing to help the tsunami victims in 2004, this because Islam does not approve of beaches with pretty girls in bathing suits, so un - Islamic. Darfur, the Sudan, over a million murdured and climing because of this religion? The Islamic countries do nothing because they support it, this being the spreading of Islam by the Sword, which talk about the Quran vs. the Bible all you want, but this is what Islam has done since the 7th century, and now its biggest weapon is its birthrate and the increasing large Muslim diaspora abroad, now a lethal threat to Europe which due to high housing costs has very low birthrates, with many below the replacement rate. The Italians, Russians, French, ..... will simply disappear and those lands will become Islamic as time progresses. This is what Bat y'eor has been warning of, read "Eurabia, Land of Dhimmitude." And Europe, if you do not know what a Dhimmi is, you will first hand if you do not change course.
#180Oh, and Jamie, I have a large Rush Limbaugh t - shirt that I could send you, Rush is big on socialism and Barack is his man, I would let you have mine if you like.
#181Here's some British Muslims working to help Darfur....
Muslim stars sing to help Darfur http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44190000/jpg/_44190351_concert_getty203b.jpg Sami Yusuf has visited Darfur and spoken to refugeesThousands of people attended a charity concert in London to raise money for war-torn Darfur.
The event on Sunday at Wembley Arena was to highlight the crisis in the Sudanese region and featured some of the Muslim world's biggest stars.
Among them was Sami Yusuf - dubbed the Islamic Bono - and Texan country and western singer Kareem Salama.
The director of Islamic Relief said British Muslims must unite and "raise their voices" over the issue of Darfur.
#182The response of Arab nations to the situation has indeed been inadequate. And considering the way censorship works in that part of the world, it's not a surprise that many people living there rarely have a clear picture of the whole story (I don't know what Joseph's excuse is). Is this control of the media the result of corrupt governments that took control after the end of colonial rule, or is it the symptom of an evil religion? Every individual must judge for themselves.
Der Alleswisser....my response to Vik Rubenfeld in the thread "Unassimilated Islam" is pretty much the same response I give to you. If it isn't good enough for you, then that's just the way it goes, right? No one's convinced me to change my views either. I've enjoyed the challenge, but we probably have long past the point where we're just dancing around in a circle.
A large Rush Limbaugh shirt, eh? Can there be any other kind? Rush will never admit it, but he had to be absolutely ecstatic when Obama was elected. Not having a President he could blame everything on for the last 8 years, I almost forgot he existed.
Joseph....whatever and ever, amen.
#183If anyone laughs at the suggestion I have no problem. Osama bin Laden is the reincarnation of paedophile evil prophet Mohammad.
#184Rush enjoys enormous popularity because of who he is, basic and not corruptible. He says what he thinks, he honors the truth, substance over style. That is why he did not last long as a sports commentator, this is a nation that no longer respects the Truth, it now favors victimology and Political Correctness. He is deeply troubled about the explosion of socialism and the abandonment of basic principles handed down by our founders. Even Clint Eastwood has taken on this slant, no longer the Dirty Harry character taking out the criminals that the lawyers let out of jail over and over, evil prevailing due to lawyers.
But there is a connection. The liberal lawyers of the 70s letting bad guys go for profit nevermind that these folks would kill again and again has now morphed into Democrat lawyers letting terrorists go from GITMO nevermind they are far more dangerous than the pale in comparison guys Dirty Harry went after. We have become a nation of whiners and losers, and Barack says handout and everyone runs out an votes for him. Fully 40% of Americans now pay no tax at all and so now they will eagerly anticipate April 15th every year because they will get a check. This is stealing, also known as socialism. Some charity is a good thing, but not to the extent that we have gone to. Now people who are responsible and obtain mortgages that they can afford will be also paying for those who think they are "entitled" to the good life nevermind they cannot pay for it. A new playstation comes out, everyone feels entitled to one so they buy one. They need a new car every three years nevermind the one they trade in only has 60,000 miles on it. We Americans too often confuse "want" with "need."
#185And if something bad happens to us, we run and sue. We are entitled victims, and the Democratic Party panders to these people for votes. Those 40% who will now anticipate the check from April 15th every year will surely vote Democratic. Those whose mortgages are being paid by others will surely vote Democratic. Only once have I heard said of Barack (but not sure, not a direct quote, but attributed to him) was something about reparations for slavery. If this is true and it comes out of his mouth, watch your nation unravel.
Let's say you have to use an Operating Room for surgery, do you know what the bill is for that, just the operating room for say three hours? Try about $15,000? Does it really cost that? No, it is you or your insurance paying for maybe thirty folks who did not pay. This is what liberal Democrats do for you. Not sure but I think it was Jimmy Carter who started giving tax dollars and Social Security to illegal immigrants. Why is it that they can pour into the country and immediately go get food stamps and welfare? It is the Democrats, who fail to understand that they simply would not come if they did not know they they could do this. Do the Democrats care? No, they have future voters, and so they can tax and spend and buy more voters.
Just like Islam is the cancer of religions, in that they produce nothing and so flourish by taking over other civilizations and looting (read Smyrna and other history books, and you will see that it is the looting and raping that motivates the Islamic maurauders, and 20% goes to Muhammad and his successors), the Democrats loot taxpayers and tell them victimology stuff about how oppressed they are and just vote for them and they will get handouts. What was it, 93% of blacks voted for Obama? And with every word, every bailout, the stock market slumps again. Do you realize that when he was elected, the stock market was in the mid-9 thousands, and today it is about 6600. Do you understand how precipitious a drop this is, and do you understand what Generational Theft is?
#186Does he and his party have anything going for them competency - wise except for pandering and socialism? And do you realize who Barney Franks, Franklin Raines, Gregory Meeks, James Johnson, Maxine "California Freeloading" Waters are, Acorn, the Community Reinvestment Act that forced banks to make these toxic loans to people who could not pay and this because they had made the taxpayer liable? Truely voodoo economics. And do you understand that Obama is heavily invested in Acorn?
But saddest of all is that the intellectually - indolent American People, if the talking heads are to be believed, voted for Obama because of the economic crash. Truely pitiful when a people are just too ignorant to know who the culprits are, this like Little Red Riding Hood seeking shelter from the Big Bad Wolf.
Watch this, and understand that folks getting handouts just love what Maxine Waters and her ilk say and run out and vote for this: See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs Now consider what Obama says in his talks, he blames it all on Bush, he needs to understand that this sham will soon wear off. And of course he will not acknowledge that Bush was given 9/11 due to Clinton's ignoring al Qaeda for 8 years. I have heard the stuff about the Clinton administration warning the incoming Bush in defense, but to understand this you need to read "Willfull Blindness, a Memoir of the Jihad," by Andrew McCarthy, the lead prosecutor of the Blind Shiek and the other 1993 attackers of the WTC. Then you will understand that as he says, 9/11 was enabled and ordained by Clinton, and then you will also understand how stupid and dangerously inept Obama's GITMO policy is. You must seek the truth, it will not come to you.
#187And the pork in these stimulus bills, more buying votes. Watch the bailout Tsar trying to defend a $3 million handout to the CEO of a failed company in a bailout at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP73cK3GXdo These bills give millions to Ted Kennedy, the UAW, Acorn, just handouts, stealing from your children and their children, and buying votes. Think investors don't know this, look at them run from the stock market.
I am sure Democrats will deny all of this, and I hope they are right. When an election this important goes so badly wrong, all that is left is to hope one is wrong. "You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.."
~~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931-2005
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816 "Any election is an advance auction of stolen property." -- H. L. Mencken
"Kids in school are not learning? Not a problem, just promote them on to the next grade anyway. Call it 'compassion,' so as to not hurt their 'self - esteem.' Can't meet college admission standards after they graduate from high school? Denounce those standards as arbitrary barriers to favor the privileged, and demand that exceptions be made. Can't do math or science after they are in college? Denounce those courses for their rigidity and insensitivity, and create softer courses that the students can pass to get their degrees." -- Thomas Sowell, Postponing Reality
#188Der Alleswisser...
Rush is a skilled speaker who gets paid big bucks to feed a shrinking percentage of the total population what they want to hear to make them feel better about themselves, and his producers aren't about to get in the way of that by holding him accountable to present the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. His is absolutely corruptible, and Obama and leaders of the Republican Party make a big mistake in paying him any attention at all....but it's an easy mistake to understand because I make it everytime I visit this page and waste valuable time debating with people here who are as willing to listen to what I have to say as the wall behind my monitor.
#189"My reading of the Quran has convinced me that the basis of Islam is not violence but is unadulterated Peace. It regards forbearance as superior to vengeance. The very word "Islam" means peace, which is nonviolence. My experience of India tells me that the Hindus and the Muslims know how to live at peace among themselves. I decline to believe that the people have said good-bye to their senses, so as to make it impossible to live at peace with each other, as they have done for generations. The enmity cannot last forever."....Gandhi.
So George Bush and Gandhi apparently would have agreed that Islam as a religion of peace. Any thoughts on that? Any response from anyone here who supported the invasion of Iraq and efforts to build a democracy there but also feel Islam is morally corrupt at it's foundation and therefore incapable of sustaining anything of true value? Does anyone here feel our dependance oil is an umbilical cord that should be cut by all means necessary?
I swear...you people...you kill me. You really kill me. You're so wrapped up in proving that Islam is evil, that democrats are bumbling idiots, and that Obama is the Anti-Christ that you give little or no consideration to solutions to real problems. You live in a world of color, but can think only in black and white.
I may be a Democrat, but I know that America needs Republicans. I think most people are near the middle, and when government stays near the middle, we keep a healthy balance. You may not agree, but after reading his books and listening to him speak, I honestly think he feels the same way. Unfortunately, he comes into office facing the unprecedented challenge of two wars, a roaring economic recession, a health system that is sick (no matter what you feel the cure is), drug wars on the border with Mexico to go along with the immigration problem, and if you believe in Global Warming, then add that to the stack (even if you don't, weening ourselves off foreign oil should be a common goal....if you could drive an electric car without any Saudi oil in it, wouldn't you be wearing a smile?) Rush may want Obama's policy's to fail....but we as a nation can't afford it.
The last thing we need to be doing now is demonizing people we don't agree with. What this world needs right now is solutions. So what's yours?
I'll be gone for a few days. If I'm smart, then I'll let what I've written here be the end of it, and you guys can take it or leave it.
But then, I'm not that smart, am I? Just ask Joseph...he'll tell you.
Your favorite Islamosocialistic Rushaphobic tree hugging taoist liberal and proud descendant of several dead Confederate soldiers....signing off.
#190Number one Obama says no special interest and ear marks and theres over 9000 in the Bail out . Rush never said he didn't want Obama to fail like all the Liberals are saying he said. They incorrectly repeating Rush to take everyones eyes off the pork of porks spending bill. Rush said that if Obama's bill was to the ruin of America then he wanted his bill to fail. He wants Obama to win if it's to the betterment of the USA. Clinton had the same CIA info as Bush and Clinton sent many Cruise missiles into Irack because he didn't want Irack to have wepons of mass destruction. After 9/11 Bush new it was better to fight the terrorists overseas than on our soil. I knew it would be a long war going into it to start with but better over there than over here. I don't like the war and most of us feel the same way but what could else could he do. Talking was no way to deal with the Islamic Faciast who would just as soon lie , decapacitate you and your wife and children and then blow themselves up. Ain't no way the Quaran is written with peace in mind when it says that if the infedels don't follow THe Quaran , kill them. They want the whole world to believe the way they do or your dead. Ask your wives if they want to live under the Sharia law and explain how free they will be under its law. Islam is a decieveing , murderous religion. Are there good people in it, yes there are many good people in Islam but they have stinking thinking. Open you eyes and mind and think for your selves and not the polititions .
#191Before we get too carried away on how peaceful Ghandi said Islam was, best read http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 and the other parts of the fourteen centuries of vanquishing by slaughter, rape, and looting of vast lands, Persia, Africa, including Egypt, that were once Christian. No other people have persistenly behaved this way. And take a good look at those horrible things Islamic women are forced to wear so as to hide their feminity. And their oppression, and the genital mutilation, and the honor killings, peaceful???
What Bush said after 9/11 was a political expedient and a quest for a Moral Imperative against a "Select Few Fanatics." And Ghandi was no fool, I suspect the same thing here. But is that what Islam is? What about the Muhammod Teddy Bear, the Danish Cartoons, but where is the outrage when innocents are beheaded or folks fly airplanes into buildings. Worse than silence there was a "General feeling of Delight" (See "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West.") I think it would be met with delight from the rest of the world if there was in fact any palpable evidence that this religion was coexistant. In contrast, the Quran is loaded with verses that say it is dangerous, especially the last and thus most germane and profound, Sura 9, the chapter of war.
#192Rush simply does not want socialism, getting the government involved in anything leads to failure and stiffiling of creativity, the true wellspring of prosperity in America. The government does not have to pay any attention to Profit and Debt, it simply taxes more if it spends too much. And it is the biggest slave to political correctness and set asides for minorities, and not Production but Proceduralists. Hampered by pages and pages of regulation, whole buildings in DC could disappear and there would be not only no degradation, but progress. Choking inteptitude, you do not want this. Obama does, Rush does not.
How many billions have been thrown by the Democrats to the auto companies ( a payback by Obama for a 400 million dollar campaign contribution, bailing out the UAW and its benefits, and GMAC finance so folks can buy those cars) and now it seems that they will bankrupt anyway. Ever heard of throwing good money after bad?
And this stimulus, giving money to Acorn, the same champions of arm twisting regulation to force banks to give toxic loans to folks who cannot pay, the very core of the rot that has this in this financial mess. And millions to a bank in Barney Frank's state (United One?) in the bailout, condoms, Nancy Pelosi's distirct getting millions to study some Bay Salt Marsh Mouse?? Studying cow flatulance? I mean, out of 300 million people we cannot find any better people to elect than Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? Not only corrupt but idiots. Nancy Pelosi was asked if the Democrats had anything to do with the FreddieFannie financial bomb, and one word, "No."
#193She like Obama totally ignoring those horrible corrupt Democrats like Franklin Raines, Barney Franks, Gregory Meeks, Maxine Waters, Chuck Schumer, .... and the gall to blame it on Bush and ignore these corrupt fools. And Obama names three tax cheats to his cabinet, what do you think the press would have said if Bush had done that? And they say nothing, it is ok with them? Nancy should sell if her IQ ever reaches 50, and the American People are pitiful for voting for this.
Now Jamie, just because I do not say so does not mean I disagree with everything you say. You talk of peaceful elements of Islam and I do support those folks. I see some of them here, and when not subject to the Islamic mainstreams of the Middle East, at least some seem to progress socially and become rational people. But there is CAIR and MAB (Muslim American Brotherhood) and this is evil, terrorist sponsors, not here for anything good and should be locked up. Ditto for traitors like Louis Farrakan (google what he said to Khadaffi). We should reach out to the rational civilized elements of Islam, but should not be so gullible, as many Democrats (all, most??) are, and destroy the fanatics. Hunter - Killer squads throughout the Islamic world, hopefully with their support. Ignoring evil is not the answer, seeking solutions, as you said, is. And part of this is admitting to the evil elements of Islam, and not letting it thrive in the shadow of Political Correctness. Identify, seek out, and destroy the evil elements of Islam, and free their masses, especially their women, to pursue their lives and enjoy the fruits of their skills and creativity.
“Joy! Joy, bright spark of divinity, daughter of Elysium, fire – inspired we tread thy sanctuary. Thy magic power re-unites all that custom has divided, All men become brothers beneath the sway of thy gentle wings.” -- Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony Number 9 in D Minor, Opus 125, “Choral,” 1824, Symphonic Rendering of Fredrich Schiller's An die Freude (Ode to Joy)
#194Der Alleswisser...Your insinuation is that George Bush and Gandhi made their comments out of purely political reasons, and that sounds like something you say to yourself to expain an uncomfortable contradiction. I believe they meant what they said...so we'll just agree to disagree.
The link to Daniel Pipes is about history, not Gandhi's opinions. Tell you what...why don't you add up all the dead linked to Islamic nations verses all the dead linked to Christian nations and let me know who the winner is when you're done.
16 Nobel Prize winners came from Japan, while China and India(each with far larger populations) together have only produced 12. None of these nations are dominantly Islamic or Christian, so explore the factors that might cause this discrepancy. Might these same factors be at work in the discrepancy between winners of the Prize in Christian nations verses Muslim nations? All things considered, I believe economic prosperity creates a breeding ground for intellectual thought. If political stablility can be achieved, thus allowing new educational and economic opportunities to grow, I see no reason to think that individuals would continue to embrace terrorism on such a widespread scale. Now, if you want to argue that prosperous Islamic nations would pose a greater threat to America, then go ahead. Maybe it all leads to nuclear war and the end of the world no matter what we do. Personally, I feel that argument is speculative. My argument is about winning the war on terror, and that attacking Islam as a religion is a hindrance to that cause.
Out of curiousity, have you ever read Obama's "Audacity of Hope"? If so, I hope you'll at least give consideration to his sincerity. Democrats and Republicans need to learn how to have constructive arguments, and not accusatory shouting matches. Do you really think this nation would benefit from one party rule? I don't....I think the struggle between the two parties can create a healthy balance (which is usually somewhere in the middle).
Mickey...I need to open my eyes and mind? Saddam Hussein might qualify as an Islamofacsist, but that's not who attacked us on 9/11. Osama Bin Ladin is a radical fundamentalist Muslim who embraces violent Jihad. Some argue here that he already represents the opinions of mainstream Muslims. I disagree with that notion, but I fear it might become a reality. If we don't improve our diplomatic efforts and learn how to market our values and principles in the Islamic world, Bin Ladin's version of Islam may one day be the only one left.
Keep in mind that and every errant missile or bullet that accidentally wipes out innocent people wins Al Qaeda new recruits. You say..."Bush knew it was better to fight the terrorists overseas than on our soil"...if that were true, then he should have stuck to his guns in Afghanistan. And don't mention Clinton to me, as I've already said his policies in that region of the world were lame...ineffective and without direction.
And Mickey.."Ask your wives if they want to live under the Sharia law and explain how free they will be under its law". Is this a typo or are you trying to insult somebody? How many Muslims do you know, and on average, how many wives do they have? Polygamy might be found in Islam even more than it is in Mormonism, but I still don't think it's very common.
#195All you guys out there are missing the point,there are good & bad people in every country & every religion, I have met many muslims who are decent,hardworking & honest, but like a lot of people, some get brainwashed along the way, Others are MUSLIMS when it suits them, & to them ISLAM is not so much a religion but a convenience, here in England,mostly due to Political Correctness,& the bleeding heart brigade in certain towns & cities, you cannot say or do anything that might upset MUSLIMS, Yet you get no complaints from any other races or religious groups. Sikhs,Hindus, Jews,Buddhist &all the rest, they have mingled in with the communities, despite all the abuse they suffered over the last 50odd yrs,[verbal, physical & racial]. the recent abuse directed against british troops by ISLAMISTS? was appalling, I wonder how these cretins would be treated in there homelands if they protested in the same way. If conscription was reintroduced here, there would not be enough boats or planes to take this lot home, but then again they would miss the excellent benefit system of this land.
#196You repeted just what I said and I believe every word. Clinton went into Iraqe with the same information as Bush but Clinton didn't want to raise a stink so he sent a couple of missles and killed a babies milk factory. There has been a lot of mestake made by the D and R's and here is the way I see it. The Republicans platform is morality, chariter and honisty. Look at the D's when they apoint a thief or taxs evador, $thousands in the freezer Etc.. Oh, just a slip up etc. The D's have no ethics so when they do wrong it realy doesn't matter. They pat each other on the back for getting away with another scam and the Americans are just to stupid to get it. Most of the Obama voters didn't know what his full name was. They couldnt tell you who was vise president or secretary general.If you think I'm worng read the news paper head lines the last 12 months or so and it will make for an unbelieveable comic but where fact is funnier than fiction. I rest, Mickey
#197
#198What you have here is civilizational exhaustion by Europe and now the US. We have fought each other and now are just plain tired, and so this century is more about demographics and will, the former dictates that the deep socialism of Europe and now this comes to America, is simply not sustainable, because as Americans (Obama and the Democrats) steal from their and our grandchildren, there are no sufficent numbers of grandchildren in Europe to sustain this. The ballooning population is Islamic, and as soon as their numbers are sufficient they will take over. They have the will and the numbers, we have political correctness and elect stupid corrupt people to office. Yes, tax cheats, thousands in refridgerators, proxy murdurers by letting terrorists go, horrible people and if I ever had my way the jails would be full of these people, Barney Franks, Eric Holder, all of you Democrats who are corrupt and blame others.
And is Europe just too tired to fight back? Take a look at Spain's response to the March 2003 train attacks, how they elected the Islamic candidate because of it. And take a look at how in Brussels, General Patton and the Ameicans liberated Bastogne and the rest of Belgium and so now Brussels is free not to be able to observe a moment of silence for the victims on 9/11 as they MIGHT OFFEND MUSLIMS (sound familiar, see our good man Boyd, the British interlocutor above.
The replacement rate for Greeks is 1.3 offspring per couple, for Italians about 1.2, Spain about 1.1 and Russia is the sick man of Europe, even lower. You need 2.1 to just stay even, and America is at about 2.2. And Jamie, Muslims are allowed to have four wives, and so they have about 12 offspring per couple, so you do the math. Read Mark Steyn and "America Alone."
#199This means aging populations and increasingly Islamic demographics. By 2050 Yemen, land of dust and fanatics, will have more people than vast Russia. Just what do you think this portends for Europe? And is this good for America or anyone else? America, without who Europe would now be part of the Axis, divided up between Germany and Japan. And America and the Marshall Plan to rebuild them, and America who brought down the Berlin Wall, but do the Europeans even realize this? They do not even seem to realize that we "Won the Cold War," I do not think they even wanted to, they saw the Communists as the Good Guys and they miss them?? Are they useful allies? With the exception of Britain, the answer is no. Sadly, no.
And our good man Joe Boyd above, I simply do not understand how a proud nation with a glorious past like yours has let all these Islamics come with no restrictions and an apparent ignorance of what Islam is and that it is inherently incompatible with a Western Democracy. And how your Bobbies stand by and let these evil people insult you and have their way? What ever happened to law and order, the common good. Why do you let these people come? Prosperity brings goodness??? Jamie, do you not realize that the latest British terrorists were Islamics who had the good life, they were Doctors, among the world's best - paid people? It is more than prosperity, it it the religion, this an extremely evil religion that needs to be banned or at the very least tightly regulated and supervised, forced to cast away the evil verses and practices. It must be understood that Fundamental Islam means Fundamentally-Evil Islam. The religion is fundamentally - evil, it supresses all creativity, all charity towards one's fellow man, that is unless he is a Believer, it even supresses music. So how can Islamics, without totally abandoning their religion be prosperous economically, and as opined above, then find enlightenment? And looking at those terrorist doctors, would it even matter, and is it even possible for an Islamic entity to be prosperous, without oil. Have they ever, and is not the only prosperity they hav ever had except oil that looted from those they murdured and vanquished, taken their homes, their lands? (The Smyrna Principle, it should be called.)
#200And have we not reached out to them to try to bring them out of the darkness, have we not thrown them hundreds of billions of dollars and spent countless hours and summits and accords here there and everywhere for the last fifty years? And what do we have to show for it? And so Britian, Europe, and here, we let them come and build mosques and assume all is well in those mosques, even with palpable evidence that this is where evil flourishes? We think they are just like everyone else? We think they can find a way to distinguish Right from Wrong, Good from Evil, when they collectively, as any nation, or group of nations, have never been able to do so? When the most adored Islamic person, as Jamie admitted, right now is Osama bin Laden?
Just remember, Islam is not what you think it should be, it is what it IS, and that is as defined by the Quran, and it is forbidden by the punishment of death to interpret it, and so it cannot have a historical progression as Christianity has. And the Fatal Flaw of Islam: No Muslim can criticize another Muslim, and so you get this Wall of Silence on Islamic atrocities, this rewritting of the history books to portray Muslims the victims of the Crusades, Palestine, Smyrna, Fill - in - the - Blank.
This is not a Should Be World, this is an Is World, and Islam as a religion IS evil. The question becomes, can Muslims be freed from their religion, and how can we help. Or will we see Darkness Fall in Europe, and then the planet? The realization of the Umma that Akmadamishitjad, Osama, Shiek Abdul Raman, the other Sentinals of Satan speak of.
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From Montesquieu, about 1748, "Spirit of the Laws", Book XXIV, Chapter III:
That a moderate Government is most agreeable to the Christian Religion, and a despotic Government to the Mahometan.
THE Christian religion is a stranger to mere despotic power. The mildness so frequently recommended in the gospel, is incompatible with the despotic rage with which a prince punishes his subjects, and exercises himself in cruelty.
From Chapter IV:
It is a misfortune to human nature, when religion is given by a conqueror. The Mahometan religion, which speaks only by the sword, acts still upon men with that destructive spirit with which it was founded.