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I saw this on YouTube and thought it might be a hoax. But I confirmed its authenticity, via the Memri.org site.
Here's the transcript, from Memri.org:
Bahraini Cleric Abdullah Latif Aal Mahmoud on the Rules of Wife Beatings in Islam
The following are excerpts from a lecture by Bahraini cleric Abdullah Latif Aal Mahmoud. Bahrain TV aired this lecture on [J]une 20, 2005
Sheik Aal Mahmoud: If the husband wants to use beatings to treat his wife, he must never ever do it in front of the children. It must remain between him and her. It must be done according to the following conditions: He must not cause bleeding or bruise her body. He should avoid her face and other sensitive parts of her body. As we've said, the limitations on beating are: They must not cause bleeding, they should not break any bones, they should not be on the face, and they should not bruise her. If the husband violates these rules, he violates the rules of Allah. If she has been hurt, the husband is held liable for what he has done, because the woman is not his merchandise. He cannot do to her whatever he wants. Even if the wife forgives the husband, it does not mean Allah will do the same on Judgment Day.
There's your religion of peace. What kind of "religion" is this? Almost everybody in America thinks that all widely-followed religions are about peace and love and understanding. Islam does not appear to be like that. Islam is a religion in which they have official rules about how to beat your wife.
How can it be that the women's organizations of America don't speak up about such things?
You can't even take this cleric's pathetic word at face value. He says you can beat your wife all you want, as long as you don't bruise her. Riiiiiiiight.
Of course, in the Sharia law of the Koran, a woman's testimony in court is worth only one-half that of a man's, so the wife has no legal recourse anyway. Come to think of it, maybe that's why this cleric says that the beatings aren't to be done in front of any witnesses.
Maybe we should ask Representative Ellison what he has to say about this.
Since wife-beating is illegal in America, Islamists here must avoid some practices sanctioned by Islam, or break U.S. law. They must accept that in America the laws of Islam are replaced by the laws of the U.S.
What I want to know is, once they take all the oppressive political ideology out of Islam, and take the Sharia law out, and take out evil practices such as clerically-sanctioned wife-beating, what's going to be left for the reformed Islamists to practice?
I've never yet heard any imam preaching anything publicly except for violence, death and murder. If anyone has seen any video of any imam publicly preaching something about love and kindness, please post a link in the comments section.
#1
#2Thanks for posting this great link, A.M. For others reading this, here's a quote:
Does the Quran permit husbands to hit their wives, or not?
Summer Hathout is a prosecutor in Los Angeles, an activist for women’s rights, and a Muslim. She denies that Islam promotes domestic violence, concluding in her short article:
"To those of us who know Islam and the Quran, violence against women is so antithetical to the teachings of Islam that we look at those who use our religion against us as misguided, misinformed or malevolent."
On the other hand, Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue. Scrolling three-fourths of the way down the link, the readers can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.
Where is the truth between the two extremes?
Unfortunately, the male Middle Eastern scholar is far closer to the truth than the American female Muslim activist and apologist (defender), for Sura 4:34 in the Quran indeed permits husbands to hit their wives, though the verse says nothing about rods.
It is true, as Hathout notes, that all societies have domestic violence; however, Islamic societies have it enshrined in their eternal word of Allah, unlike, say, the New Testament, which does not have even a faint hint of it. With such divine endorsement from Allah, can Islam reform on this matter?
#3Do you understand to whom he is talking, and how this would never have been on television even 5 years ago?
I take it you must be against some of Bush's stated war aims.
Understand it or not, what you might wish for these people is starting to bud with talk like this.
Of course it will not meet your standards, but if you only started learning about Arabs and Islam since Sept 11, 2001, and you have anything more to you than simply "my religion is better than yours" you are missing something.
David M. McClory
God Bless
#4David,
That was very oblique. Please express your views more directly. I'm interested in hearing what you are referring to.
#5u haramis!
##### put ur own subtitle sala propaganda!! u dunno jack!!
u aint you tube: you ########
#6Notice that #5 presents no debate or argument regarding the facts of the matter.
What he says is that the article is "haramis" -- which seems to mean unlawful. This appears to be an example of how radical jihadists seek to impose Islamic norms, and Sharia law, on the West. As in the case of wife-beating, the Sharia norms forbidding criticism of Islam are incompatible with our freedom in the West.
#7Vik,
I was born and raised in a moderate Muslim family in India and spent the first twenty three years of my life a devout Muslim. I lost my faith shortly after my twenty third birthday and 'am not confirmed atheist. In my opinion, Islam has many flaws but so does religion in general and there is nothing unique about Islam and its treatment of women. Hitting women was never condoned or encouraged in the Islam I was familiar with. Please note that the video talks about "what not to do" when a husband uses violence against his wife - so the discussion starts with the assumption that the wife is already a victim of abuse. I think this existing premise is more reflective of Arab society rather than Islam in general. Certainly, there are Muslim men who abuse their wives but as far as I understand, they do not have official sanction or encouragement from Islam itself.
#8Hi Anonymous,
Welcome to the site, and thanks for your post.
I understand what you're saying about the assumption being that the wife is already the victim of abuse - but the imam doesn't say that the husband must stop beating his wife; he details the "correct," accepted way to do it. In #1, A.M. posted a link to a discussion of the verse in the Koran that refers to wife-beating.
What were your thoughts and experiences that led to your decision to leave Islam?
#9The reason muslims do not get along with each other is because the "religion" is all about war, and muslim men like having dominance and access to all the money, jobs, influence, power, and they are not about to share that with anyone else, including their women.
...There is no muslim country that has lived peacefully with its neighbor for even ten years during the past 1400 years. islam is all about war. there is war between the sexes, war between shia and sunni, and war between the house of islam and the non-muslims, who are called in the koran the house of war.
Please watch this short, two-minute video and you will see the way they settle things....if we do not yell at them and shout them down, they will never listen to us...this is a true picture of how they believe the truth should be defended, and if this had not been on TV, it would have ended in the death of one or both....
Indira Ghandi said, "You cannot shake hands with a closed fist." I personally find I must meet their fist with my own, and pre-emptive fists are the best. Maybe with one in their face, they will actually listen.
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1347wmv&ak=null
When witnessing to a muslim, it must be done loudly and forcefully, because they do not expect anything less than our full force behind what we are saying...anything less than vociferous animation is testimony to the inherent falsehood, they believe.
#10Sara,
Thanks very much for the post. The linked video doesn't work on my system (Firefox for Mac). Can you post a link to the Memri article that goes with the video?
#11Beatings of women by dominant Islam men is exactly why I changed from Christianity to Islam. I did so, then took a wife and now beat her everyday.
I feel much better about my life after every session with my beloved.
Truly nothing makes a good muslim man feel better than to beat a women!
#12The gentleman(or should I refer to him as "gentleman") is a very sick person. No one has the right to beat another person because it makes THEM feel good. Sounds more like you're a "GOOD OLE BOY FROM THE DEEP SOUTH IN THE OLD DAYS, THIS IS HOW MY ANCESTORS WERE TREATED!!!!!!!!!!GOD BLESS YOU.
#13Ahhhh Islam. The way forward
#14Ah... Jews & Americans... could there be a more biased and Islamaphobic pairing of like minded 'people' ?
You are all going to hell anyway, but hopefully some of you will die of prostate cancer and get there early.
#15#14, very funny. You are accusing us of being Islamophobic, and in the same breath wishing us death.
You're an example of the racism, hatred and evil taught by radical Islam, and of the danger it presents to a free and Democratic society. Your fellow Brits would be wise to identify radical Islamists such as yourself and expel them.
#16As far as post #5 is concerned, it uses foul language. In fact the entire post has foul language. So need not talk much about it.
For the #9 post, I think it is absolutely correct.
First of all, there is NO tolerance for other religions in Islam. So, in Saudi Arabia, as an example, you never find a church nor a synagogue. Whilst in US, UK, you find a Mosque.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace, it's a religion of war. In fact, I doubt whether it is a religion at all. The driving force behind Islam is FORCE / SWORD. Islamic countries are characterized by war at all times.
#17I hope God will forgive you all.
If you really want to understand read and learn. This goes for all of you and the cleric... first chapter of the Quran begins with words LEARN ... but no one here seems to understand. Muslims nor Non-Muslims
Finally... yes there is a chapter saying that a man can punish his wife. There is also what to do by adultery rape etc.
But really does the following look familiar?
22 “If a man is discovered committing adultery, both he and the woman must die. In this way, you will purge Israel of such evil.
23 “Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town,
24 you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.
Or just try reading
Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin
so ... what is new here ... all religion has these things... why is this strange ???
Nr #16 yeah yeah .. Crusades / South America / Africa ... go read something.
#18Komentator, you overlook the fact that Jewish and Christian societies today do not act on the passages you cite, whereas Muslim societies today do act on the wife-beating passages from the Koran, and even broadcast on TV speeches telling Muslims how to practice wife-beating.
#19I didn't overlook it .. that is not the matter of what is in the religion but how much is followed, acted upon.
Question is how many Muslims do act on everything written, and how much they and our media would like us to think they do.
I mean if you compare all monotheistic religion (I intentionally use singular)it is basically the same thing. And people that truly follow it do seem odd to the majority as they have a different base of thinking.
Religion was and is always (mis)used to achieve some other goals ... but that is a totally different topic.
Masses are so easy to play with ....
It is more of a strange thing that right Christian wing was so antisemitic and Christianity in general blames Jews for death of Jesus, and so many European Jews are killed and/or thrown out (not talking about WW2) of Europe. New enemy is chosen and now you can read about "Judeo-Christian tradition of wanting to love each other and help each other have better lives".
#20if you compare all monotheistic religion (I intentionally use singular)it is basically the same thing.
It appears that the vast majority of Muslim imams disagree with you on this:
- British TV exposed the hate-filled preachings of the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham, England.
- The Society of Americans for National Existence exposed similar events at mosques in the U.S.
- Religious, government, and media leaders in Islamic nations, routinely call for murder to be done in the name of Islam:
Egyptian Cleric Hazem Sallah Abu Isma'il on the Rewards of the Martyr
Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi Justifies the Killing of Israeli Women and Children in Suicide Operations
#21I saw the one from British TV and I live in NL so Hirshi Ali is pretty known here (I don't believe a single word she says). Can't open below links you've posted. 404 not found.
What's your point?
What do you want to say? .. Imam preaching this or that .. ALL are such .. whole religion is such.
Should I say so many priests are pedophiles .. ALL are such etc.
get the (big) picture? Islam is in media focus it is modern to hate it or to defend it and everybody is doing it ONLY because everybody is doing it.
I this "river" of hate towards one another only one side wins... iblis's side.
#22The links in #20 have been updated. Check them out.
What’s your point?
What do you want to say? .. Imam preaching this or that .. ALL are such .. whole religion is such.
I'm quoting Muslim imams who disagree with you. They regularly preach killing and murder as part of Islam. This is opposite to the Judeo-Christian tradition. Preachers and rabbis don't preach killing and murder as a part of Judaism or Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition is one of peace and love. It is opposite to the Islamic tradition as practiced by the Imams quoted in the links in #20.
This is relevant to your statement that "if you compare all monotheistic religion (I intentionally use singular)it is basically the same thing." This statement appears to be incorrect.
#23Komentator,
You're quoting from the Old Testament of the Bible. The New Testament (Jesus) does not condone such behavior.
This is from the New Testament:
John 8:1-11
John 13:34
Matthew 5:1-48
Matthew 22:36-40
One would have thought that Mohammad would have built upon this rather than to revert back to (as well as add to) some of the more unG-dly and incompassionate behavior.)
#24Hope you guys have read Prophetic sayings such as "only noble one can show respect to women" or"how can a civilized man beat his wife and hug her at night?". In Quran itself it is given humans are created in pair (male and female) to live in tranquility. The people quote the above verse doesn't look ahead or behind - just that. The chapter itself starts with reminding to be repectful of the "womb" that carried you. Much better than New Testament when Jesus said to have ignored his moher and refused to see her even at her request(God forbid - I don't believe he did) ! In old testament there are numerous abusive verses, if a sincere person looks in to. Statistics shows more women than men convert to Islam! May God guide you!
#25Ali, it appears that the majority of imams disagree with your views of the Koran.
#26During the 60's the Soviets made it very clear, they were interested in World domination! It was what offset the the cold war and almost spiraled America into a nuclear holocaust. This is not debateable just a historic fact that everyone knows. And during or after these dangerous times no one was ever called a Communi-phobe! or some other ninny name. Americans recognized the problem and dealt with it accordingly. "Evil Empire" might ring a few bells!
Today you are considered bigoted and called Islamaphobe or what ever other ninny names appoligists apply to Americans trying to deal with an ideological cult of death that is sabotaging the entire Globe. "Axis of Evil" might ring a few more bells...
For a about 1,500 years Islam has made it very clear that world domination is part of their ideology.
People forget the past of Islam. But it is very, very important for the world to know that Islam wants to topple the will of people, democracy and culture, and rule the world. Dominating the world with Sharia is an emphasised part of Islam. Islam's ultimate goal is to convert the developed world including all other non-Muslim countries to Islamic paradises like Saudi Arab, Iran, or Talibani Afghanistan.
People always want to live with their own freedom and expect others to enjoy it. But Islam will take it away as soon as it becomes powerful. Islam will impose its own policy that will force people to obey Islamic tyranny.
Until the west wakes up and realizes Islam is an Ideology that uses religion as a pretense. Then we will never truly be able to grasp intelligibly, the full thrust of our predicament, in the current war.
#27One could argue that "not acting upon" means not following ... in case of #18 ... leads to what? Atheists or Non-practicing theists?
Anyway #26 ... True I agree... same as any ideology it assumes it will spread "the good" around the world. But can you name ONE country in which people are forced to become Muslims in past 1500 years. (Greece? Spain? Hungary? Ethiopia?) Try to do the same with other two parts of monotheistic religion.
#23 So what isn't Old Testament still valid?
To end my appearing ... don't wanna ruin your peaceful tradition, tradition as something so old ..even older then Spanish inquisition
I'm sure if you look for it you'll find other preachers talking rubbish as those imams you quote. I don't want to promote that as they are not true face of their religion.
Anyway ... LEARN people ..don't let them teach you...
Scholars and Angels will be the witnesses.
#28#27
There is not a country in the world or the history of the world currently practicing Islam, that is not doing so because of subjugation and slaughter. However you only wanted one example Mr. komentator, so here it goes...
636 CE Sa' d ibn Abi Waqqas, was sent by the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab to conquer the Persians. The young Sassanid monarch Yazdgird III ordered his chief general Rostam Farrokhzad to block the Arab Muslim Threat. The two armies met on the western side of the Euphrates River, at the village of al-Qadisiyyah. Arab delegations that came to the Persian camp demanded that the latter accept islam or agree to pay the tribute (jizyah).
After Arabs conquered Persia, they forced the Persians to live in (dhimmitude), and treated them less than human. Until of course the conversion was complete and persia was completely subjugated.
and if you want any more examples just ask.. and remember... komentator
"Learn, don't let them teach you"...(by force)!
#29We are obviously not reading the same history books, nor concluding the same things from them. As for example Greece was 500 years under Ottomans but is still Christian. How? Anyway... what you are saying looks interesting, different at least. I like different points of view and more importantly how a historian came to conclusion(s).
Can you put some names / books so I can look them up in the library.
Btw: we're both long the topic...
you mentioned Commies
Did you ever read Carl Marx, you have to admit that goal was noble, almost like Utopia, every man would have equality. Of course Eastern Europe, China, Korea and Cuba made a mess out of it. Was it because it works only if all world would believe in equality, was it because that system can not work at all?
To go back to faith. Faith is a matter of choice and to enforce it, is contradictory to it's definition so it makes no sense to do so.
#30To Komentator: You wanted to know how after 400 years , (14th century until 1821) of Ottoman Subjugation there are still Christians in Greece...
The worst persecutions of Christians in Ottoman controlled Greece took place under the reign of Selim I, known as (Selim the Grim), who attempted to stamp out Christianity from the Ottoman Empire. Selim ordered the confiscation of all Christian churches, Christians were heavily persecuted during his era.
Greeks, like other Christians, were also made to pay the jizya, or Islamic poll-tax which all non-Muslims in the empire were forced to pay in order to practice their religion. Non-Muslims did not serve in the Sultan's army, but young boys were forcibly converted to Islam and made to serve in the Ottoman military.
These practices are called the "tribute of children" (devshirmeh) (in Greek (paidomazoma), meaning "child gathering"), whereby every Christian community was required to give one son in five to be raised as a Muslim and enrolled in the corps of (Janissaries), elite units of the Ottoman army.
Greek stories tell of mothers crippling their sons to avoid their abduction.
Greek families would often have to relinquish their own sons who would convert and return later as their oppressors.
only Muslims could ride a horse, which made travel difficult. Greek culture declined, and outside the Church few people were literate.
The War of Independence that ensued was catastrophicly savage , even the poet laureate Lord Byron gave his life in the war for the sake of liberating Greece from Ottoman tyranny.
(books on Greece)
Stanford. History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey:
Volume I, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1977
(books on Iran) Caheb C., Cambridge History of Iran, Tribes, Cities and Social Organization, vol. 4,
Bosworth C. E., Cambridge History of Iran, vol. 4,
****most importantly every American should read, Robert Spencer's: ( The Politically Incorrect Guide: To Islam and the Crusades)
#31Still no explanation of how ... you stated some facts and/or assumptions but still no real reason of how .. as 400 years is a long period. And btw Ottomans had to have Orthodox church as a friend as they didn't want to go to war with Russians at the same time as Hapsburgs was the main rival.
But from your conclusions/quotations above I guess there is no church in Greece older then 150 years, as they were all confiscated/ruined or whatever???
Thanks for the sources, good to know.
I know they took taxes, every conqueror does that. Took children for Janissaries, not only Greece, but whole empire. I even know a few of those becoming powerful and influential people in the Ottoman empire, after being educated in at the time best schools in the empire. I do have to question the conclusions of forcible act of islamisation.
No one likes colonial force, but being colonized and pay tax, is far better then being colonized and enslaved or killed. But really if someone heavily prosecutes you for that long...in that era of time...and is much stronger...Think! I doubt that islamisation was the goal. If it was then they did an inefficient and lousy job.
I mean we in the west (not all) had different laws for people with different skin pigmentation until not even 100 years ago .. can you imagine that tradition (tradition as something that is old otr at least older the you grendpa can remember)? And who invented the definition in the dictionary that Race is a group of humans with a certain colour... as we all know God created only one human race. (I'm bringign this up as I think that we are raized thinking that there are different races of humans) .. so it can not be a man of faith that invented this.
...anyway... I think that no matter what I say / write here you will still look for whatever reason to dislike Muslims, after all it is so modern to do so these days. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't like them, it's not mine to do so. It is, same as in faith, your choice, but just try to take some distance and try some objectivity for a change.
Peace be with you.
#32Wow! Its amazing how children being abducted and forced into Janissaries is ok to you because they were taught at the best schools in the empire. Mothers crippling there own children so they would not be abducted by Ottomans is okay because they were brainwashed and grew up to be influential and important.
WoW! Selim the I known as (Salim the Grim) heavily Persecuting christians and trying to stamp them out in the Ottoman empire does not constitute as forcible acts of Islamisation.
And why you brought race into this i dont know. I guess you were trying to find a way to make the west look bad. No one in the west will dispute that racial discrimination is or ever was evil. That's why we had the Civil Rights Movement for expample, here in America. To take us out of our backward ways. Just like you said "not even a hundred years ago". Not even a hundred years ago is a long time. In Islam affronts toward humanity are happening today and are the most prevalent in world. Beheadings, hands being lopped off, public stonings, public rapings, butality against women, sexual repression, honor killings ... etc etc.
You also stated in your last comment to "try some objectivity for a change" but nothing in my statement was subjective. I just listed Historical facts and where to find them.
But I will be hones it is hard not to look subjectively at an ideology that puts you on the same list as feces?
There are a list of Najis (Unclean things) listed in the Quran and Hadith, citing that Kafirs (unbelievers) are Najis.
Anyone who is of another religion that is not Islam be it Christians, Jews, Atheists, Bhudists, Hindus, Zoroastrians etc. etc. are all on the same list of Unclean things. Unbelievers are on the same list as feces, urine , mucous, blood, the sweat of unclean animals, pigs, monkeys, dogs, etc. etc.
So naturally an ideology that puts an unbeliever on the same list as human waste, will undoubtedly not procure much respect from anybody, who is knowledgeable of the fact. Maybe one of the many reasons for your ambiguous statement about me disliking muslims, "after all it is so modern to do so these days".
Maybe I'm just trying "to take some distance and trying some objectivity for a change".
komentator I beleive you are the one that lacks objectivity if you can truly be appologetic towards an ideology, that fosters this type of backwards thinking. But hey it is a free country. If it were an Islamic one you would'nt have the right to your own opinion. For example just recently in Iran:
Hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has banned Western music from Iran's radio and TV stations, reviving one of the harshest cultural decrees from the early days of 1979 Islamic Revolution. (2005 The Associated Press)
Geez komentator you wouldn't even be able to listen to the radio not being able to listen to the music of your choosing because Ahmadinejad says so, doesn't sound very objective or impartial to me!
ps... sorry so long, i was just trying to hit on all the points you made.
#33Oh and by the way komentator on the Ottomans collecting (Jizya), you said all conquerors took taxes. Not all conquerors imposed taxes on people for the sake of practicing there own religion. Only Muslim conquerors did this. It was another method of forcible Islamization.
The Quaran explains there are three ways for Islamization. First , by proselytizing through word of mouth, however if unbelievers do not except the word, then Second, they must be forced to pay the (jizya) and Third if the Jizya is not paid then by the Sword.
#34see .. the moment you use the term "racial dicrimination" means you yourself take it for granted that there is more then one human race...wrong! (It is connected with big scale colonisation, that's why I mentioned it, but this is besides the point.)
I said that your story was a probably a fact at least I take that it is as I found it in so many books ... young children taken etc.... Again in 500 years if what you are saying/quating while concluding from those facts is true ... a louzy louzy job...don't you think? Does this make any sence to you? How long did it take for Hutus to almost whipe out Toetsis .. 2 month?
Unfortunalty I read and met some Muslims that stated how all others are kafir, when I asked them to find where and how did they came up with that frame of mind... They did kind of a same thing as you nef... copy/paste someone elses conclusions and irelevant facts... However why would it be ok to marrie a Christian or Jewsh if they were "human waste"? And why are Moses, Jesus, Meryem... so respected in the Quran? As many other things that are the same ... after all .. one God .. one faith.... I guess you and them are the same kind of ppl.
To cut the story short I was tought to look for the good in people... and maybe you are too but I'm pretty sure you'll read this and look for some more stuff to say about how Islam is bad and should be erased.
anyway .. not planning to waste more time debating .. it's fun when you see ppl get so fired up about something they don't know (me included)
God knows best!
#35Komentator, let me ask you something. Do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a plane, train, bus or restaurant, does not go to paradise?
#36Any MAN (so also any Muslim)... of course .. (just to be sure ..God will judge everybody, not me)
#37It's ok to marry human waste because the moment they convert to islam then they are Muslim. Why can't a muslim women marry a non muslim man? because Muslims know she will be the one to convert! and converting from Islam to another religion according to Sharia Law is punishable by death. That's why there are so many "honor killings" perpetrated my muslims. A daughter who runs off with a man of a different religion is better off dead!!!!! what kind of sick mentality is that?
And Moses , Jesus , and Meryem are so respected by muslims because according to the Koran, they've alrdy converted! The Koran specifies that the bible was distorted in history by Jews and is a false book of lies. And that moses , and Jesus were really muslims. That's the only reason moses and jesus are not treated as unbelievers. Because a War Monger named Mohammad told you so!
And by the way they didn't do too much of a lousy job , if that's what you would like to call the brutal subjugation of an entire people and culture. I 'll give you one example Turkey, but all you have to do is look at a map of the Ottoman empire and you'll see many more. Turkey, wasn't even called turkey until recently. Constantinople (present day Istanbul) was the capitol of Byzantium. Ottomans conquered and wiped out it's heritage, history and culture. Guess what the Christian population in Turkey is today ? 0.2% And Byzantium was the capital of Christianity! I guess in Turkey, they didn't do too lousy of job in there efforts of Islamization. Oh and by the way the Christians in Turkey are still being persecuted by muslims to this day!
#38I like it when I'm right about ppl
#39I'm a Christian and i don't dislike muslims, I pray for them. Because only love will open their hearts. I'll tell you what i do dislike and that is the ideology of dar al-islam vs. dar al-harb. Muslim vs. non-muslim. And these are the core teachings of Islam, expressed in the Koran and the Hadiths. The prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and his messenger." Muslims have the divided people into muslims and non-muslims and called to fight the others until they believe what they themselves believe.
The Bible teaches differently it tells you to pray for your enemies.
"Bless them which persecute you: bless and curse not." Romans 12:14
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven." Mathew 5:10
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust." Mathew 5:44
verses like this are a huge contrast to verses found in the Koran, for example:
Koran 9.5:
slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.
9.29: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not
#40Any MAN (so also any Muslim)… of course .. (just to be sure ..God will judge everybody, not me)
You say that it is not for you to judge, and that Allah may admit a Muslim to paradise even if that Muslim blows up a bus, plane, train, or restaurant. This is in accordance with the way the imams I linked in #20 interpret the Koran. It appears that your interpretation of the Koran is not much different from that of the imams I linked in #20.
#41Vik .. it's a shame that we have to ask eachother quetions like that ... shame that world is like it is .. comment about judging Are you really gonna hang on to that ... God will eventually decide. Don't you think so??? Don't understand your frustration about it.
...if anyone slays a human being-unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind.
and to show that I've masterd the art of copy/paste
#39 comments about idolators and the strugle and inner war you have to fight when in temptation
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
..... drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess.
Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
be my guests look it up .. and you do need some understanding.
This is a Scripture that We have revealed unto thee, full of blessing, that they may ponder its revelations, and that men of understanding may reflect.
#42Are you really gonna hang on to that ... God will eventually decide. Don’t you think so???
No. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, anybody who blows up a public place is going to hell. In the Islamic tradition, as you present it, somebody can blow up a bus, plane, train, or restaurant, and go to paradise. And as you know, many of your co-religionists blow up such places in the name of Islam.
...if anyone slays a human being-unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind.
I've posted about this here. If you read the very next verse of the Koran, you find out that "corruption on earth" means not believing in Allah.
Here's the very next verse:
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
So "corruption in the earth"/"corruption in the land" is made by anyone who makes "war upon Allah," and such people are to be "killed or crucified."
Islam declares war on everybody who isn't a Muslim. From About.com:
A crucial distinction made in Islamic theology is that between dar al-harb and dar al-islam. To put it simply, dar al-harb (territory of war or chaos) is the name for the regions where Islam does not dominate, where divine will is not observed, and therefore where continuing strife is the norm. By contrast, dar al-islam (territory of peace) is the name for those territories where Islam does dominate, where submission to God is observed, and where peace and tranquility reign.
Just in case anyone might think that Islam looks kindly on those of other faiths in any situation, a few verses later (5:36 and 5:37), the Koran says:
As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.
They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.
Taken with the preceding verses, it appears that the Koran is saying that Muslims cannot co-exist with others.
Komentator, please attempt to quote some more verses from the Koran which argue for equal co-existence of Muslims and non-Muslims, if you can find any.
#43I will not even read it whole .. how much clearer do you want me to say : "Any MAN (so also any Muslim)… of course ."
But if you don't believe that God is one and only one that will / can pas judgement for all enternaty, then we don't have to speak about faith at all, as our starting point differs.
#44Muslims cannot co-exist with others. There are towns and cities in Saudia Arabia where, unbelievers are not even allowed to even. You can't even step foot in them. Until America and the rest of the western world wakes up and realizes that Islam is an ideology that breeds contempt, is violent, and hateful, we will never understand our true predicament.
#45But if you don’t believe that God is one and only one that will / can pas judgement for all enternaty, then we don’t have to speak about faith at all, as our starting point differs.
Our starting points do differ. According to the interpretations of the Koran expressed by the imams I linked in #20, Allah is not even remotely close to God. According to those imams, the Islamic deity, Allah, wants Muslims to kill and murder in the name of Islam.
You haven't responded yet to the passages from the Koran I quoted in #42. But surely you know they exist, and that many Muslims, such as the many imams I linked in #20, interpret them to mean that it is necessary for Muslims to kill and murder non-Muslims.
What will you tell your children so that your children do not interpet the Koran the same way the imams I linked in #20 interpret it?
#46It's interesting because it's pretty much the same definition of how to spank your child in the US without it being considered abuse. And like spanking, it assumes the one being spanked is being taught to behave - as an inferior rather than an equal.
#47A Muslim man is only given permission to ‘beat’ his wife, as a last resort. After having tried reasoning with her, and spending some time by himself. He is only allowed to use a natural toothbrush made from a twig that is no longer, than the distance between his thumb and his little finger, and he is not allowed to cause his wife any injury. I’m sure Muhammad said this with a sense of humor, as it’s not really possible to beat anyone like this with a 7″ twig!
http://www.islam.tc/Miswaak/
Also, you should bear in mind, this was said to a people who used to think they owned women and would routinely beat them… Islam emancipated women in Arabia, and gave them full property rights in the 7th Century AD. The rights accorded to women under Islamic rule were not given to women in most of Europe until within the last 100 years. The spirit of the Islamic teachings is fairness, and gender equality. I do admit there are some places in the Muslim majority countries where there is unfairness and injustice, but this is in spite of Islam, not because of it. The Islamic teachings on gender equality are quite clear to anyone who has actually read them…
All sincere Muslims, are horrified by the way Islamic teachings have been warped by both the ignorant, and the corrupt! We are working to educate all people, Muslims and Non-Muslims alike, on the true teachings of Islam. In this way we aim to expose false teachings and corrupt groups, and end the evil caused by them.
#48Paul, you appear to be saying that violence against women is uncommon in Islam. This view is at odds with the report in the Daily Mail this week that:
By conservative estimates, 66,000 women and girls living in Britain have been mutilated. This figure, accepted by the Metropolitan Police, came in a report by a volunteer organisation funded by the Department of Health and carried out with academics from the London School of Tropical Hygiene and the City University.
And thousands more girls are at imminent risk as families club together to fly professional "cutters" from Africa to Britain.
These women "elders" perform the crude operation for up to £40 a time, often on kitchen tables or floors, without anaesthetic, using filthy, blunt knives, razor blades or scalpels.
Many readers will be distressed by our report, but this practice is an abomination which has no place anywhere, let alone in a civilised society, and if it is to be expunged then this is a story that must be told.
The view you express is at odds with the dishonorable killings of Muslim women by members of their own families in America, Canada, and other nations, with an estimated total of 5,000 "honor killings" per year.
Your statement that violence against women under Islam is limited to the use of a toothbrush or a twig is very far from the truth.
#49Vik, I'd have thought you'd be able to distinguish between a religion and practices which have nothing to do with that religion. These are terrible crimes against humanity and against the teachings of Islam, not because of them.
Female genital mutilation (FGM), is not circumcision and has no place in Islam. I have a baby daughter and wouldn't even consider doing that to her. I agree "this practice is an abomination which has no place anywhere, let alone in a civilised society".
I will not stick up for anyone Muslim or not who commits evil. I am simply stating what my faith is about, and what my religion teaches. If these people were actually following the traditional teachings of Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad, and transmitted by the authorised scholars and shaykhs of Ahl-As Sunnah Wal Jamaat (People of the Way and Congregation), these terrible acts wouldn't have and wouldn't be happening.
#50Paul, I'm glad to hear you saying this. We need to see more Muslims who will stand up and say such things.
At the same time, it seems your views are at odds with those of many, many Imams. Take a look at the links I posted in #20:
- British TV exposed the hate-filled preachings of the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham, England.
- The Society of Americans for National Existence exposed similar events at mosques in the U.S.
- Religious, government, and media leaders in Islamic nations, routinely call for murder to be done in the name of Islam:
Egyptian Cleric Hazem Sallah Abu Isma’il on the Rewards of the Martyr
Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi Justifies the Killing of Israeli Women and Children in Suicide Operations
Can you make the case that such evil practices have nothing to do with Islam, given that so many Islamic imams preach a view opposite to yours?
#51You are right, unfortunately there many are so called Muslims all over the world calling for all sorts of terrible things. They are fanatics. Some of them are politicians while others are Wahabis. I and my Shaykh have nothing whatsover to do with them. Actually, as I state in my article "The Enemy Within..." these fantics are the real enemies of Islam.
The Red Mosque in Pakistan is affiliated with Deoband. The Deobandi's are largely funded by the Saudi's to spread their poison. They have been exposed since the time of Imam Ahmed Raza Khan for their heretical views.
What I have stated on this page is totally in accordance with the traditional views of Sunni Islam. While I am opposed to Satanic Imams and their poison, you'll find authentic scholars will agree with me.
#52Paul, do agree that Muslims who blow up planes, trains, busses, and restaurants, do not go to paradise?
#53
I totally condemn these horrific crimes, as does my religion. Traditional Islamic teaching is quite clear on this. Allah says in the Qur'an, if you kill one person it is the same in God's sight as if you've killed the whole of humankind! Also, Prophet Muhammad laid down restrictions on warfare, should the community need to resort to it.
Firstly, nobody has the right to declare war except someone with the authority, like the Caliph, or the King (today maybe the President). No doubt, war is not liked in the sight of God, and should only be declared if all other diplomatic means have failed, where people are being persecuted and their lives are in danger. War must never be resorted to, except in circumstances which are already really terrible, where rule of law no longer exists, and war is the only way to resolve this.
If war is declared, it should only be fought against your enemy's military forces; Muhammad stated this quite clearly, you are not allowed to harm women or children, you are not allowed to harm the men working in the fields (in other words - any civilian), you are not even allowed to destroy the trees (i.e. damage the environment), and if they retreat, you must draw up a treaty with them and end the fighting.
Muhammad taught this in the 7th Century, long before the Geneva Convention. He made quite clear that killing civilians is wrong, and that terrorists who commit these awful atrocities are on a course to hell!
#54I'm very glad to hear this, Paul. Now the next question is this. The Koran contains many passages which many Muslims read as meaning that they are to kill and oppress non-Muslims. For example:
From the Koran:
[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
Given such statements, it is easy to see why many Muslims, such as those linked in #50, believe that they are instructed by the Koran to kill and oppress non-Muslims. There is, of course, a grave danger that your own children, if not properly instructed, may read the Koran, and come to the conclusion that as Muslims they too must act in such a way.
So my question is this: what will you tell your children to make sure that they do not interpret the Koran as telling them that they must kill and oppress non-Muslims?
#55Dear Vik, I see your point, and I'm glad to see that you've taken the time to study the Qur'an. Many people make statements without actually doing so. Similar verses are to be found in many religious scriptures including the Bible and Bhagavad Gita, which refer to war in certain passages. The same danger of misinterpretation can be found in all these scriptures.
Firstly, I'd like to clarify what these verses actually mean and refer to, as they were revealed in the context of 7th Century Arabia. Verse [4.89] refers to the "hypocrites". These where enemies of Muhammad and the early Muslim community. They sought to infiltrate the Muslims and destroy them from the inside. Hence why this is written so strongly. These people were committing espionage.
Verse [3.151] is between God and the disbelievers, God is saying He will put terror in the hearts of those who disbelieve. This is up to God to do, and this verse doesn't teach us, that this is something that us Muslims should do.
Verse [8.12] is referring to how to fight when, and only when war is inevitable. Verse [8.39] actually clarifies the reason for the fighting - persecution. The Muslims had been persecuted, victimised and killed for many years during the lifetime of Muhammad. Actually, Muslims should fight against persecution, but in the 21st Century, this can be done by joining and supporting a Human Rights organisation, rather than going to war.
Chapter 9 of the Qur'an begins, by referring to the treaties, Muslims had made with their enemies, to try to keep the peace. But, while the Muslims had kept their side of these treaties, their enemies had repeatedly broken them. Verse 5 is in this context, and doesn't apply in any other.
In verse [9:111] God is talking about those who are fighting in his way, those who believe in the Torah (Taurat), Gospel (Injeel), and the Qur'an. The Jews, Christians and Muslims are mentioned together as God's servants, who will be given Gardens in Paradise. This promise, is for those who are fighting for truth, justice, human rights and rule of law. Only when they have no choice, and so do what needs to be done.
These verses do not sanction terrorism, or those who kill indiscriminately. The overall Message of Islam, is not the message contained in these particular verses. These verses are referring to certain particularly extraordinary situations.
Prophet Muhammad taught that the most rewarding act, more rewarding than our prayers, our charity, and other good deeds is to live in harmony with our neighbours. This conveys more the spirit of Islam, that I and most Muslims understand.
Obviously, lack of education and false teachers play a big role, in why some 'Muslims' have become so radicalised, that they now consider crimes against humanity acceptable. When the Qur'an makes quite clear, Muslims should be fighting against persecution, not for it!
I will teach my children according to my understanding, and allow them to learn from other good teachers too. Also, I will give them the freedom to choose their own paths in life, as I have no right to choose that for them.
#56to paul in # 55
I can't believe my eyes you are equating supporting a human rights organization with : "Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
Wow i've seen some sorry apologetics in my life but this one takes the cake.
How in this big blue world, do you equate cutting the heads and fingertips off from unbelievers with, joining a human rights group?????
I hope for your children's sake you don't raise them in this Blood thirsty cult of death, called Islam. And before you get upset, let me explain..
The Koran + (ABROGATION)
The Qur'an is unique among sacred scriptures in accepting a doctrine of abrogation in which later pronouncements of the Prophet declare null and void his earlier pronouncements. Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:
1) When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things? Qur. 2:106..
2) When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.Qur. 16:101
3) God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.Qur. 13:39
4) If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us. Qur. 17:86.
Rather than explain away inconsistencies in passages regulating the Muslim community, many jurists acknowledge the differences but accept that latter verses trump earlier verses. Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew.
Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. Example: The Ahmadiyah sect today concentrated in Pakistan. They consistently reject abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors. Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
During the lifetime of Muhammad, the Islamic community passed through three stages. In the beginning from 610 until 622, God commanded restraint. As the Muslims relocated to Medina (623-26), God permitted Muslims only to fight in a defensive war. However, in the last six years of Muhammad's life (626-32), God permitted Muslims to fight an aggressive war first against polytheists, and later against monotheists like the Jews of Khaybar. Once Muhammad was given permission to kill in the name of God, he instigated battle.
Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."
Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5). This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.
*Info can be found http://www.meforum.org/article/1754
God bless.
Nef
#57Nef - that is an excellent post.
Paul - the points you make appear to be good examples of the lengths Islamists have to go to, to make a case that the Koran doesn't mean what it appears on the face of it to mean. Passage after passage requires lengthy discussion to make a case that it doesn't say what it appears on the face of it to plainly say. Maybe that's why countless imams call for death and murder, and none that I have heard of so far call for peace, love and understanding.
I must take exception to your statement that:
Similar verses are to be found in many religious scriptures including the Bible and Bhagavad Gita, which refer to war in certain passages. The same danger of misinterpretation can be found in all these scriptures.
There are no passages in the Bible which can be interpreted as a requirement for those of Judeo-Christian faith, as a way of life, to murder and oppress those of other faiths. On the other hand, there are many passages in the Bible requiring men to love their neighbor - and nothing similar is to be found in the Koran.
My greatest concern is with regard to your closing statement:
I will teach my children according to my understanding, and allow them to learn from other good teachers too. Also, I will give them the freedom to choose their own paths in life, as I have no right to choose that for them.
This is the conclusion of your post in answer to my question:
...what will you tell your children to make sure that they do not interpret the Koran as telling them that they must kill and oppress non-Muslims?
It appears that you are saying that if your children choose the path in life of believing that the Koran requires them to kill and oppress non-Muslims, that is okay with you.
And that is very odd.
#58Great discernment in your conclusion to your post Vik ,
however i think you have me mixed up with paul salahuddin armstrong #55
The violence in the Koran is Prescriptive, while the violence in the bible is descriptive.
The Koran is a manual of hate, deceit , and murder, written by an oppressive, pedophile, maniac!
How someone can follow the words of Mohamed a sick twisted pedophile that married a 6 year old (Aisha) is beyond rational logic!
I believe it's hate that breeds the affinity for such a reprobate ideology. Only Hate could inspire a doctrine so deadly as that of Islam.
Bridgette Gabrielle , Explains this type of pathology in her book "Because They Hate"
#59Great discernment in your conclusion to your post Vik
Thanks, Nef!
...however i think you have me mixed up with paul salahuddin armstrong #55
The part of the post beginning with "Paul - " is meant to respond to Paul's most recent post.
#60just lyk to say dat #5
is actually swearin at u ppl not unlawful
vic......
What he says is that the article is “haramis”—which seems to mean unlawful. This appears to be an example of how radical jihadists seek to impose Islamic norms, and Sharia law, on the West. As in the case of wife-beating, the Sharia norms forbidding criticism of Islam are incompatible with our freedom in the West.
all he is doin is swearin at u man.
wot do u expext wen a bunch of
ppl who not muslims jugde da
religion 4rm da outside. u get me.
freedom in da west, since wen do muslims now have freedon here
dey r critised 4 everythin bad dat happens.
wife beating, well i dont agree wid it at all, but if u closely listen to him, beating must not bruise, break bones, or make da woman bleed, which at the end leaves nothin. whot beatings do u kno dat leave no mark wot so eva man.
#61Sorry for my delay responding to your comments... Contrary to much of what you have suggested, Muslims do believe in peace and pray for peace. As a board member of Wolverhampton Inter Faith Council, I recently took part in and helped to organise the Holocaust Memorial Day and Prayers For Peace in Wolverhampton.
-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> I'm not sure which Imams you have been listening to, but there are many Imams who preach good things. I do not deny there are some who have perverted my religion, and I am amongst those working to counter them. However, I know most Muslims do not hold extremist views. As a Muslim myself, and a representative of my faith community, I believe I'm in a better position to speak on this than others who seem to know little about my faith.
War in the Bible:
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: (Deuteronomy 7:2)
And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. And ye, in any wise keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed, when ye take of the accursed thing, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it.
(Joshua 6:17-18)
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
(2 Samuel 12:10-11)
These are just a few of the passages about war in the Bible, there are many more, most of the Book of Judges, for instance is about war. I didn't want to quote them initially, as I respect Judaism and Christianity. I know most Jews and Christians are peaceful people who do not like warfare. However, these passages are there and it is possible for people to misuse them.
Bhagavad Gita:
O Arjuna! Only the very fortunate Kshatriyas get such an opportunity of a gratuitous battle which is a straight path to heaven.
(Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, Shloka 32)
Bhagavad Gita is part of the Mahabharata. It is the story of the struggle between Arjuna and Duryodhana who has taken the throne, and established an unjust tyranny. So our hero Arjuna has to fight to regain the throne and establish justice in the land. A important aspect of the Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita is about warfare. Although most Hindus are very peaceful, even pacifist, there are small groups of extremists who use this as a justification for war and terrorism against people of other faiths. This element exists in all religions, although it's strongly condemned by the majority of each.
War is not something which any religion likes or encourages. We are supposed to struggle against evil and injustice. The most important aspect of this fight is within ourselves, and through intellectual dialogue. We should avoid at all costs the killing and maiming of our brothers and sisters in humanity.
I firmly believe that in this new century, and new era for human kind we need to find a better way to resolve our differences, and avoid war. Today's weapons are no longer bows, swords and shields. But are of the most inhumane kind; nuclear, chemical and biological often aimed, not even at armies but civilians. We need to stop the carnage, and find a lasting peace. If we don't we could very possibly make our world impossible for human life. I pray we all find peace...
#62February 6, 2008
Dear Fellow Americans,
I am a Ronald Reagan Christian life-long Republican.
I am running for the office of President.
My web page to go to , to see my stand on the issues, is:
http://JFKone.bravehost.com
I am a conservative and do not like John McCain as a candidate, nor,
Mitt Romney, who does not have the Holy Spirit in him, like Ronald Reagan did, and I do not favor Mike Huckabee because he is fond of stopping the existence of the IRS, which is not right. Nor, does Mr. Huckabee have any military experience, which I do, for I was a dentist in the U.S. Army, First infantry Division, in 1982 to 1985. I am a retired dentist, also a PC tech, of sorts, and a professional artist.
See my web site.
I am for only leaving 50,000 US troops in the Iraq region, not in Iraq, to battle Al-Qaeda where they exist. We have WON in Iraq. We have WON in Iraq.
Now we are to get out.
Thank you for your kind attention.
Sincerely,
Dr. John F. Kossowan
Maine
#63Dear Paul,
Per #61:
Most Muslims only quote from the Old Testament to support scripture on war, not the New Testament. (It's seems Muslims don't study the New Testament.)
Please contrast the words and actions of Jesus (of the New Testament) against those of Muhammad. That is what Christians follow. There is quite a difference.
#64For those who wish to read a few verses from the New Testament that could be misunderstood;
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. (Luke 22:36-38)
But of course, most theologians believe this refer to the spiritual struggle within our own hearts. Jesus also warned us;
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:52)
In Islam, written in the Qur'an, permission is only given to defend oneself, and ones community, whether they be Muslims or include people of other faiths. Notice, "monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques" are mentioned side by side.
Verily Allah will defend (from ill) those who believe: verily Allah loveth not any that is a traitor to faith or shows ingratitude. To those against whom war is made permission is given (to fight) because they are wronged and verily Allah is most powerful for their aid (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah."
Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down; monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength Exalted in Might (Able to enforce His Will). (Holy Qur'an, Surah 22:38-40)
I believe these verses make quite clear the only time war is justified in the eyes of God is for defence. Few would disagree when your community is under threat, where you have no choice, in a situation where it is defend yourselves or be killed. In this situation, you need to defend yourselves and those who can't.
However, the Qur'an emphasises the real blessings are for those who strive for righteousness, fairness, justice and peace.
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces toward East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day and the Angels and the Book and the Messengers; to spend of your substance out of love for Him for your kin for orphans for the needy for the wayfarer for those who ask and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient in pain (or suffering) and adversity and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth the Allah-fearing. (Holy Quran, Surah 2:177)
Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety and leadeth them out of darkness by His Will unto the light guideth them to a Path that is Straight. (Holy Qur'an, Surah 5:16)
These teachings recur throughout Islamic scriptures. Love of God, Prayer, Charity, caring for and supporting those less fortunate, and walking the straight path - being fair, honest, just - not being unjust, unfair and dishonest. These principles are the basis of Islam. We do not like war, either against Muslims or non-Muslims.
Standing at the beginning of the 21st Century, all humanity has to consider do we wish to continue in our old ways that will bring about our own destruction. Or found a better way, based on equity, justice, and fairness to all people, regardless of their race or creed. If we take the right path, we can make a beautiful future for all people, but if we make the wrong choices and fan the flames of hate, all mankind will be denied this future. Today, many people of all faiths, including Muslims realise this, we are striving for Peace, and the ending of all wars.
#65In every religion, there are those who cross the line and take the religion into their own hands. They interpret the religion according to their own intellect which is infact very limited. Islam is a peaceful religion, those that try and depict it as a violent, bloodthirsty religion are only out to distort the reality and create hatred amongst the community. Those who use Islam to preach violence are just using the name of Islam as a tool to instil animosity towards peace loving muslims all over the world. I urge all my friends to research into Islam 'through the right sources' and find out for yourself the truth about this calm religion. Please do not jump to any conclusions. Treat muslims how you would like to be treated.
#66What Jesus teaches is to pray for our muslim brothers and sisters and that they come to christ. that being said, the matter of violence in the koran vs. violence in the bible.
I love how muslims always misquote the scriptures:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword". (Matthew 10:34)
...was a parable about a king who said these words. Only someone who is blind could misquote this verse in the bible. (or someone who hates christianity)
2nd Pual you mention Luke 22:36-38 ..."it is enough".
is used and has always been used in it's spiritual context. Again only someone with an aversion towards the faith could misquote this.
Violent use of the swords (Luke 22:36-38 explained)
Jesus says to the disciples to buy swords, but when they show him two, Jesus says the two are enough. literal translation of this these verses are inadequate for two reasons.
First, the obvious question is: two swords are enough for what? Are they enough for a physical fight to resist arrest? This is hardly the case because during Jesus’ arrest a disciple (Peter according to John 18:10) took out his sword and cut off the ear of the servant (Malchus according to John 18:10) of the high priest. Jesus sternly tells Peter to put away his sword, "No more of this!" and then he heals the servant, restoring his ear (Luke 22:49-51). Resisting arrest cannot be the purpose of the two swords.
Second, were the two swords enough for an armed rebellion to resist the authorities and to impose the new Jesus movement in a political and military way? Jesus denounces this purpose in Luke 22:52, as the authorities are in the process of arresting him: "Am I leading a rebellion that you have come with swords and clubs?" The answer is no, as he is seized and led away (v. 54).
So the physical interpretation of Luke 22:36 (the two swords were intended to be used) will not work in the larger context. Two swords are not enough to resist arrest, to pull off a revolt of some kind, or to fully protect themselves in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The contextual meaning of the swords
First, Jesus reminds the disciples of his mission for them before he arrived in Jerusalem (Luke 9:3; 10:1-17). Did they need a purse, a bag, or extra sandals? No, because people were friendlier, and their opposition to him was spread out over three years. Now, however, he is in Jerusalem, and he has undergone the compacted antagonism of religious leaders seeking to trap him with self-incriminating words. When the authorities are not present, they send their spies. The atmosphere is therefore tense, and the two swords—no more than that—represent the tension. Jesus’ mission has shifted to a clear danger, and the disciples must beware. However, he certainly did not intend for his disciples to use the swords, as we just saw in the literal interpretation, above, for he is about to tell Peter to put away his sword.
Second, "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).
#67Now when you have Koranic verses like the one's below you begin to realize that the message is not of a spiritual struggle. One big difference between Christianity and Muslims is that God gave his only son to die for you. Whereas Islam teaches to give your sons for God!
Koran 9.5:
slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.
9.29: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not
One Last note In the Old Testament the violence in there is DESCRIPTIVE whereas the violence in the Koran is PRESCRIPTIVE!
#68Excellent exegesis, Nef!
#69Nef, thanks very much for this great post!
#70"I love how muslims always misquote the scriptures:" I know exactly what you mean. Please be aware this goes both ways. We suffer from the same malaise coming from some evangelical Christians. I'm happy you're praying for our souls, we pray for yours too. In this life the difference between whether one follows Christianity or Islam, is a matter of faith and understanding. While each believes our own faith is true, we should still respect this is a matter of faith. I agree with discussion, and witnessing one's faith, but ultimately we will most likely each still believe our own faith is the truth.
Therefore we need to accept this, and try to see beyond it. Try to work for the common good, not fuel the flames of hate. If we work for the common good we will help each other, and be a blessing to humanity. I do not hide there are some passages in the Qur'an that are hard to understand. However, to take these out of the context they were revealed in, then to claim Islam is not a spiritual struggle...
When I quoted from the Bible, I wasn't claiming Christianity or Judaism are violent faiths. Although as history testifies, each has had its share of violent sects. I was simply seeking to illustrate this aspect of the Qur'an is also true of the Bible. You cannot claim this phenomenon is something unique, or even inherent in Islam. The vast majority of Muslims see their faith as spiritual, they pray, fast, and meditate to get closer to God. Violence and terrorism are condemned, even in Sharia law. So however these misquoted verses may appear to someone unfamiliar with Islam, one who is familiar will realise they do not represent the overall teachings of Islam.
Islam as a religion has inspired humanity for many centuries. Muslims have contributed to many areas of human life, including science, art, technology, medicine, agriculture, philosophy, and the list goes on. Muslims contributed to the European Renaissance to which we are all heirs. To try to write this out of history, to claim that Muslims are violent or terrorists, is grossly unfair. Any unbiased study of history will reveal holes in this worldview. I propose we should be more constructive, work to improve relations and towards a better future.
#71"I love how muslims always misquote the scriptures:" I know exactly what you mean. Please be aware this goes both ways.
The argument that there is an equivalence between Islam and other religions absurdly ignores the fact that 142,174 people (56,000+ killed, 85,000+ injured) have been killed or injured by radical Islamists - who say that in doing such killings and attempted killings, they are carrying out the requirements of Islam -- since 9/10/01. (Link to source - and supporting spreadsheet).
Explain that.
#72Dear Vik,
I'm not denying there are extremists amongst the Muslim community, to deny this would fly in the face of reason. For various reasons which I will not go into here, we are living in a time when there has been an increase in this. However, extremists amongst Christianity produced the Crusades, and Inquisition. There are some crazy people today who profess Christianity, and are supporting wars against Muslims because they think all Muslims are evil!!! Like I stated before this is a phenomenon that exists in most religious traditions. I'm disgusted by the actions of terrorists, whoever they are. Likewise so called 'honor' killings - which are a cultural not a religious phenomenom.
Atheists too have killed many people, indeed many more - especially the hardline Communist regimes. How many people have been killed as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Before you blame the worlds second most popular religion for all these atrocities, surely you should investigate the political situation in the Middle East. Learn about the cultures of the people who have committed these crimes, and of course the individuals themselves. If you had done this, you'd find there are other reasons for this violence that have nothing to do with Islam. Please be aware, those who kill, and claim this is in the name of Allah, are following other ideologies that are completely alien to Islam.
There are over 1,300,000,000 Muslims in this world. If they believed in violence, your figures wouldn't be about 142,174 people, but a great deal more. The numerical difference itself proves that Islam is peaceful and not violent. What are the figures for murders and attempted murders in non-Muslim countries? Surely your argument doesn't have any weight at all unless that comparison is made?
How can you solve any problem unless you know what is really going on? I try to be fair and unbiased when I analyse any situation to figure out its causes. Only by doing so can you figure this out. If you start blaming people before analysing all the evidence, you will inevitably draw the wrong conclusions.
Please consider this carefully. If you are looking for examples of bad Muslims, you will find them. However, as you are focussed on this goal you will ignore many good ones in the process. If you look for verses in a religious scripture to show that religion calls people to violence, you will most likely find them, but you will miss the overall beauty of those scriptures. Consider your frame of mind. How can one claim anything is true or false, if approaching one's subject already completely biased one way or the other? One will only further enforce one's biased views, without arriving at the truth!
http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/
#73Yes, there are extremists. They are called, imams.
Egyptian Cleric Hazem Sallah Abu Isma’il on the Rewards of the Martyr
Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi Justifies the Killing of Israeli Women and Children in Suicide Operations
According to these imams, the violent interpretation of the Koran is correct. It is the preaching of these imams which leads so many of your co-religionists to choose to become killers.
These imams are not driven out of their mosques by the larger Muslim community you speak of. Instead they are accepted; they are broadcast on TV in Arabic nations; and when one of their followers kills someone or attempts to kill someone, they continue to be permitted to preach. Does this not show that the larger Muslim community considers them to be correct in their interpretation of Islam?
#74Dear Vik,
I think we've already discussed this before. Extremists also have their 'imams', 'priests' etc. That doesn't mean they're not extremists. Real Imams who are practicing Islam don't teach violence. The reason they are not 'driven out' as you put it, varies according to circumstance. Unfortunately, there is a lack of good education in many poorer countries, and where corrupt Imams are the teachers, they obviously effect the people in their immediate vicinity. Those who know they're bad often feel scared to challedge them, as they usually have their henchmen. If analysed, you'd realise these are normally political figures rather than religious.
Take the Ayatollahs, for instance, they are political, but using religion as a vehicle and disguise. In some situations, take for example Saudi Arabia. The regime has given extremists, in this case Wahabis important positions in mosques. Saudi is a police state. Many Saudi's don't like the situation, and many practice traditional Islam undergound. But, if discovered they may be persecuted by the state, this was usually the case until after 9/11. Extremism is as much my enemy as yours. Police states are not something from Islam either, more like Communism, and Facism. What the extremists stand for, is clearly in violation of the traditional teachings of Islam. As Islam has a scholarly tradition, this is something that can be clearly proven.
#75Can you name one Muslim country where imams who preach violence are driven out of their mosques?
#76Turkey, probably Malaysia too. Even Pakistan takes action when they realise their is a problem, eg. Red Mosque. But, those who are biased will only see one side of the story.
#77It had been stated that Imams don't have to go to seminary - or be educated at all.
In Judaism and Christianity, one needs to be thoroughly educated and attend a seminary. The orthodoxy of each person is weighed by a number of teachers, religious leaders, and laity. Those who do not fully represent the respective religious sects, either do not get to be ordained, or they are thrown out later.
It is the rogues who are troublesome in Christian and Jewish communities, but luckily, there are very few of them, and it is easy enough to expose them because we are a free society.
#78True imams spend their lifetime educating themselves at learning institutions like those in Iran, Jordan and Cairo, among others. They are taught the full ethics of Islam and they are hardly heard off by the Western world. They are the true Islam. They rarely give interviews and make public statements about wife-beatings and Islamic Terror, because there exists no such thing in the Islamic religion. Islam is so peaceful that it instructs a man who goes on a business trip abroad to bring something back for his child and for the neighbours child also, regardless of religion. If the man can't afford to gift the neighbours child then he should make sure that his child does not throw the wrapper of the gift in a place where the neighbours child may be able to see it. This is the true Islam, it teaches us to show care for all humans. How can this Islam instruct muslims to strap themselves with bombs and kill themselves and other innocent bystanders.
Unfortunately, all the media picks up from the muslim religion are those who have read a few books and grown big beards, calling for hatred towards the West. Islam tells all its followers to respect everyone regardless of their religion or race as all of us are brothers, if not on a religious level than on a humanitarian level..
Please help us muslims shun these weeds out of our truly peaceful religion. Unite with us to oppose and reject their views and please do not fan their flames of hate against the Western advancement.
#79Turkey, probably Malaysia too. Even Pakistan takes action when they realise their is a problem, eg. Red Mosque.
Turkey has been an example of reformed Islam - with a government that separates Islam from the state.
Pakistan does not yet appear to be a good example. Musharraf is admirably attempting to do what you describe, but there are still many cases of madrassas in which violence is preached. From the Washington Times:
LAHORE, Pakistan — .....Known as madrassas, the privately funded schools double as orphanages and free boarding schools for families too poor to feed their children, but they also have a darker side.
They teach a Taliban-style doctrine and graduate tens of thousands of young adults each year, some of whom are eagerly recruited by insurgents for military training as guerrillas and even future suicide missions, say Pakistani lawmakers, academics and analysts.
Malaysia oppresses non-Muslims.
Even if one accepts these three countries as examples of nations in which imams who preach violence are not tolerated, we still see that in the majority of Islamic nations, such imams are not driven from their mosques.
Bahrain: see the original post.
Egypt:
- Sheik of Al-Azhar, Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi: Those Who Carry Out Suicide Operations Are Martyrs
Iran
- On the Iranian Movement of "Martyrdom Seekers"
Kuwait
- Kuwaiti Cleric Ahmad Qattan on the Rewards of the Martyr in Paradise
Lebanon
Qatar
- Kuwaiti Cleric Tareq Sweidan: Homosexuals Should Be Stoned to Death or Thrown Off a Mountain (aired on Qatar TV)
Saudi Arabia
- Cleric Muhammad Hassan on the Heroes of Falluja and Suicide Children
Syria
Yemen; The Palestinian Authority
- Yemenite Sheik Abd Al-Majid Al-Zindani Praises Palestinian Suicide Bombers in a Hamas Fundraiser
It appears that in the majority of Islamic nations, imams who preach violence are accepted, and are broadcast on TV; they are not driven from their mosques.
Rather than being an exception to the preachings of most imams, as you appear to imply, the violent view of Islam appears to be the norm, among the imams of most Islamic nations.
#80The idea of separating religion from the state was the idea of Ibn Rushd, an Islamic scholar and philospher, commonly known as Averroes in the west. He lived over 800 years ago in Moorish Spain (Andalus). When his idea was implemented by European countries, they threw off the yoke of the Catholic Church, this paved the way for the European Renaissance. It is unfortunate, and a great shame that his ideas are not accepted in many Muslim countries today.
However, one must bear in mind he was an Islamic scholar. Islam as practiced in the 12th Century was the source of enlightenment for many. Surely this proves that those arrogant preachers of today are the aberration, rather than the general rule. When we can see the scholars of 800 years ago were more enlightened than some today, we see a decline in quality, found in some so called 'scholars'.
We cannot say the whole religion is bad, as this is ignoring the many good scholars, and practitioners of Islam who are working for the benefit of all humanity. By doing so, you are committing a great injustice against them, and giving undue credibilty to those who are in the wrong.
#81It sounds like we are agreed that most Islamic preachers of today see Islam as a religion of violence. They may be incorrect, and I hope that future generations of Muslims will come to view them as incorrect. However, they are the ones that many Muslims today look to, to find out what Islam means, and how they as Muslims are to behave. The hatred preached by such imams is directly responsible for those radical Islamists who decide that they must kill non-Muslims.
Western nations can act on this by following the procedure suggested by Daniel Pipes:
...reduce the threats of jihad and Shariah by banning Islamist interpretations of the Koran, as well as Islamism and Islamists. Precedents exist. A Saudi-sponsored Koran was pulled from school libraries. Preachers have gone to jail for their interpretation of the Koran. Extreme versions of Islam are criminally prosecuted. Organizations are outlawed. Politicians have called for Islamists to leave their countries.Islam is not the enemy, but Islamism is. Tolerate moderate Islam, but eradicate its radical variants.
There was something I asked you previously which I have not yet heard back from you on.
In #54, I asked:
...what will you tell your children to make sure that they do not interpret the Koran as telling them that they must kill and oppress non-Muslims?
In #55, you responded:
...I will teach my children according to my understanding, and allow them to learn from other good teachers too. Also, I will give them the freedom to choose their own paths in life, as I have no right to choose that for them.
It appears that you are saying that if your children choose the path in life of believing that the Koran requires them to kill and oppress non-Muslims, that is okay with you. Is that correct?
#82Murder is one of the worst crimes against humanity, it is also one of the worst sins in all religions including Islam. One thing I will teach my children is a concept that is central to Islamic thought - All human beings are brothers and sisters, irrespective of there creed or colour. It is therefore wrong to treat anyone unjustly, never mind anything worse.
When I wrote "...I will teach my children according to my understanding, and allow them to learn from other good teachers too. Also, I will give them the freedom to choose their own paths in life, as I have no right to choose that for them. " What I meant is that although I will teach my children what I believe, as most parents do. I will respect their freedom to choose. I will not make them follow Islam if they do not wish to do so. I will always love them and respect them even if they should choose to folllow another religion. As it is written in the Qur'an "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (Holy Qur'an 2:256)
Also, I do not believe most Islamic preachers of today see Islam as a religion of violence. Although it is certainly true that those who do often get more media coverage. I for one agree that preachers of violence should be stopped, they are as much a danger to Muslims as anyone else. If governments implement measures to stop them preaching, and hold them to account for what they preach. Who can blame them? It is a duty of all civilised people to maintain law and order, without which we can not maintain a civilised society.
#83I for one agree that preachers of violence should be stopped, they are as much a danger to Muslims as anyone else. If governments implement measures to stop them preaching, and hold them to account for what they preach. Who can blame them? It is a duty of all civilised people to maintain law and order, without which we can not maintain a civilised society.
I'm glad to hear your views on this, Paul.
Also, I do not believe most Islamic preachers of today see Islam as a religion of violence. Although it is certainly true that those who do often get more media coverage.
I would like to find this is the case. But when has there ever been a large march or demonstration of any kind, organized by an Imam, protesting against Bin Laden? Against radical Islamist riots? Against honor killings? Against bombings of public places done in the name of Islam?
#84Shaykh Hisham Kabbani spoke out against extremism almost 3 years before the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Shaykh Kabbani warned the US government about the dangers posed by militant extremists to US national security. There are other shaykhs and imams have spoken out against extremism, including my own shaykh, Sufi Muhammad Abdullah, though they often do not appear in the media.
Shaykh Hisham Kabbani's speech to the US State Dept
January 7, 1999, in 7 parts on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT-LC71xo34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikA6hMARiXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQRedRCWX8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQg2ESCpFUE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXnzSccwPNs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMbVh3XtZQo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWRgGkBssDc
#85“The walls of religion are falling and their foundations have cracked. Let us come together, O people of the earth and rebuild what was ruined, reestablish what fell!
This is not acceptable. O Sun! O Moon! O Day! All of you come! O People, the religion is crying for aid and assistance, holding its hands above its head in its distress due to all the profligates, insolent ones, innovators, perverters of the Divine Law, the heedless folk, the unjust and tyrannical, those who falsify the Divine Knowledge and lay claim to it when in fact it is not in their hands.”
Abdul Qadir Jilani
12th century Baghdad
#86its a great peice of information ... or sould i say mis-information ...
taking a certain thing out of its context causes grave problems .. ive given similar examples of (mis-information) on this blog by qouting parts of the bible where the Prophets have ordered the Jews to kill .. a certain people by striking their children on rocks and killing even every male man, child and elderly and take only virgins .. and even kill thier cattles .. its there in the old testiment that the jews hold holly ..
but the problem is taking things out of context....
i wonder if you could find the video right before the one showed at the top..
the Reasons for beating a wife:
1. If she is getting rebelious (sexually) ..
meaning.. she has been found cheating..
that is the only reason ...
and unlike the domestic voilance of many countries .. developed and developing.. where the women are beaten up with their faces broken and punched and bruised where most of them end up scared for life both physically and psychologically .... and hospitalized for weeks if not months..
i thank the person who has put this video up ... .. i wonder if he is a muslim??
What ever the case..
there is a more modrate or a liberla view to the same Religious law.. which states that a person must not beat his wife.. but perform an action that seems like he will beat her.. as to scare her by the action of his hand... and other similar rules apply that this action must not be towards the face or towards the sensitive parts of the body ..and must never be done infront of the children this would be just to show her his dislike
for a gender as tender and loving and kind and delicate as a woman .. its enough that you show her your dislike and not even hit her yet she will feel it
and if the woman still bent on rebelion.. then divorce her. becuase she never was yours..
taking things out of context is devilish... be care full .. may God guide us all
#87[This comment is being copied here from another thread, with the emailed permission of the author - ed.]
Islamism is a problem for all of us regardless of faith, they are completely narrow minded and can’t see outside their box. People living in a country need to integrate. We cannot have a situation of different ghettos for each ethnic and cultural group.
When people move to another country, one has to ask, if they don’t appreciate their host country’s culture, what are they doing there? In the UK, I know many Muslims who appreciate British culture and way of life, they feel part of it and defend it. However, due to Islamist propaganda, there are also those who are becoming extreme and narrow minded. These people are a danger to us all!
To prevent further escalation of this poison in our country, it needs to be made clear that while we all have freedom of speech, it is completely unacceptable to preach hate, or violence! Extremists need to know they will not be tolerated, and action will be taken against those who preach violence. Muslims do not govern European countries, it is therefore the duty of the governments and judicial systems in these countries to take action against any individuals who preach hate.
However, please be aware the danger is Islamism, not Islam. Traditional Islam as taught by our great Shaykhs, such as Rumi, Ghazzali, Ibn Arabi, Abdul Qadir Jilani, Ahmed Raza Khan etc - is essentially peaceful and spiritual. It is this traditional Islam that is the antidote to Islamism, and needs to be revived.
#88do muslims believe in jesus christ? that he died for our sins?
#89Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. We belive he is the Messiah/Christ. But we don't believe he died for our sins. Our view of Jesus Christ is almost identical to that of Arius and his followers.
#90@#88: It's noteworthy that the Koran appears to deny cornerstone Judeo-Christian beliefs.
Koran 004:157:
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
That verse is particularly pertinent, as it not only asserts, contrary to Christian belief, that Jesus did not die for mankind's sins; it also asserts, contrary to Jewish belief, that Jews claim to have slain the messiah.
Continuing with the very next verses:
But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
Yup - that's what it says. "People of the Scripture" refers to Christians.
And oh, by the way, according to the Koran, Jesus was not the son of God -
004.171
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
It'd be one thing if the Koran offered something original; but it mostly seems to call for Muslims to attack non-Muslims; at least, that appears to be the interpretation of it by most imams today (see #79).
Ex-radical, Dr. Tawfik Hamid, has discussed how specific verses in the Koran are currently used in many Islamic nations, to instill hatred into children. See this post for additional detail.
#91Dont comment on da fact dat ppl of oda faiths n religions beat dere wife n children.
seriously i cant b bothered wid u ppl man honest.
even wen some1 explains 2 u wot Islam is really abt u neva listen, u just go off on a tangent n carry on lyk a broken record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
#92Oh Please... This is totally irrelevent to the topic of this article. Of course there are differences between Jews, Christians and Muslims. If there weren't, we'd all be the same religion. Jews don't believe Jesus Christ was the literal son of God either. But then neither did Arius, a 3rd Century Christian priest, who lived only 200 years after Jesus Christ. He wasn't alone either, there were many in the early Church whose beliefs differ, from what later became establish Church doctrine. Many people don't know much about the history of Christianity, so naturally they are unaware of this.
The Qur'an was revealed only 300 years after Arius. Many Arian Christians flocked to Islam, as they saw a connection with their own beliefs. In Europe meanwhile, people who held Arian beliefs were deemed heretics. Arians were persecuted for their beliefs, so much so that they were blotted out of European history. However their are still some Christians in the Middle East and Africa, who still hold to a Unitarian belief in God. They believe Jesus to be the Messiah/Christ, but not God's literal son. So how does the fact that Muslims hold this same belief, mean we are attacking non-Muslims???
"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings"
Jesus, The Essene Gospel of Peace
#93So how does the fact that Muslims hold this same belief, mean we are attacking non-Muslims???
The primary evidence that radical Muslims are attacking non-Muslims is two-fold:
1) 142,174 people (56,000+ killed, 85,000+ injured) have been killed or injured by radical Islamists - who say that in doing such killings and attempted killings, they are carrying out the requirements of Islam—since 9/10/01. (Link to source - and supporting spreadsheet).
2) The majority of Imams in Muslim countries preach that Islam calls for violent attacks on non-Muslims. (See #79).
#94Radical Islamists are attacking all of us, whether we're Muslim or not.
But you stated,
"Yup - that’s what it says. “People of the Scripture” refers to Christians.
And oh, by the way, according to the Koran, Jesus was not the son of God"
"It’d be one thing if the Koran offered something original; but it mostly seems
to call for Muslims to attack non-Muslims; at least, that appears to be the
interpretation of it by most imams today"
Which was tagged onto a response I gave to a question about whether Muslims believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. I'm sorry but I don't see the connection... What has whether Muslims believe Jesus Christ to be God's son, got to do with "142,174 people (56,000+ killed, 85,000+ injured) have been killed or injured by radical Islamists"? If anything, you are the one who appears to be attacking other peoples religion, namely Islam.
I don't dispute your figures, and fully acknowledge that militant islamists are killing people (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). However, the question of Jesus being God's son, or belief in the Trinity is an entirely different subject, namely Theology. It has no bearing on militant islamism. Also, as Shaykh Hisham Kabbani made clear nearly 3 years before 9/11, only militant islamists are violent.
The islamists, with there roots in wahabism are extremists, but they make up only a tiny fraction of the world's Muslim community. Most Muslims follow mainstream Sunni Islam, many of whom are Sufis. These are extremely peaceful people, a far cry from militant extremism. I ask that you make this clear, rather than slandering the Qur'an a book held to be Holy by over 1.3 billion Muslims, as well as a few others such as Bahais and Ahmadiyya. Or blaming those 1.3 billion Muslims, when only maybe 1% are actually islamists. Is this so unreasonable?
#95The islamists, with there roots in wahabism are extremists, but they make up only a tiny fraction of the world’s Muslim community. Most Muslims follow mainstream Sunni Islam, many of whom are Sufis. These are extremely peaceful people, a far cry from militant extremism.
Then why have they not had one large march or demonstration of any kind, organized by an Imam, protesting against Bin Laden? Against radical Islamist riots? Against honor killings? Against bombings of public places done in the name of Islam?
#96Geez I appreciate the comments..although some of it is about as clear as mud...When you connect the dots from the old testament to the new, the only way to God was through sacrifice...God is the true light that lights everyman that comes into this world. This world, as God saw it, was Perverted. But he so loved the world that he chose to sacrifice his only Son. Just to keep it short, I believe that. When I see the hatred and the ugliness of Islam, it becomes clear that Mohammed is a false prophet and Islam is the antichrist. You say its just radicals that are doing the killing? Well its only because the other muslims are kinda like episculpians. The true God is the beginning and the end, the aplha and omega. He sees everything in a blink of the eye. What we're seeing today is just the tip of the iceberg. Total chaos and collapse, kill or be killed. The meek will inheritet the earth, but who would want it, when you can be in heaven. What greater rewared when a brother gives his life for a brother. When the "radicals " hit Isreal with a wmd, or kill hundreds of thousands here in the U.S. it wont matter if your radical or not, just being muslim will be good enough. We will be the sword of God to severe the head of Islam
#97"Then why have they not had one large march or demonstration of any kind,
organized by an Imam, protesting against Bin Laden?"
You don't see this so often, mainly because most Muslims are moderate, not radicals or extremists. In the 1960's and 70's, how many people in the West organised large scale protests against Communism? Rather it was the Communists who were protesting. Would we be right therefore, to assume most Westerners supported Communism? Of course not, this is an absurd assertation.
I'm certainly not going to applaud bad governments, but it must be said that most Muslim countries have secular governments. There are only a few that have Wahabis or Islamists in charge - The two that immediately come to mind are Saudi Arabia, and Sudan. While there are Islamist movements in many other countries, they hold little power, and are suppressed by the governments.
Islamism has more in common with an ideology like Communism, and has hardly any connection with the spirituality of Islam. Islamists actually strip away any vestige of spirituality from their beliefs. Even worse, they transgress major points of Islamic belief.
Islamists believe they can declare other Muslims as infidels, and then kill them. Whereas Muslims believe it is a very serious major sin to kill anyone! Muslims also believe you don't know what anyone else believes unless they've openly declared it. So how can you call anyone an infidel?!!! I could list many more points, but I see no need as even this clearly proves Islamists are following something entirely alien to Islam.
#98"God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! God guides who He wills to His Light: God sets forth Parables for men: and God knows all things."
Holy Qur'an, Surah An-Nur : 35
#99In the 1960’s and 70’s, how many people in the West organised large scale protests against Communism? Rather it was the Communists who were protesting. Would we be right therefore, to assume most Westerners supported Communism?
The U.S. organized a war in Vietnam, among other things, specifically to stop the spread of Communism. A war qualifies as protest - as extreme protest.
I don't yet see moderate Muslims organizing a war against the radical Islamists.
On the other hand, there were lots of marches and demonstrations in the U.S. But they weren't against Communism. They were against the Vietnam war. Does this indicate that the marchers supported Communism? Unfortunately, to some degree it does. These demonstrations were viewed by the Communists as being the most powerful thing they had in their favor with regard to the Vietnam war.
People in the West moved powerfully in favor of the things that were important to them -- some using a war and other efforts to halt Communism -- others using marches and demonstrations to stop the draft and end that very war.
But the moderate Muslims you reference theoretically aren't demonstrating against anything -- evidently showing that their opposition to radical Islam is weak. I say "theoretically" because it is not yet demonstrated that such Muslims do not in fact take part in objecting to the freedom of speech of others.
Radical Islamists are, per your description, outraging the Koran by doing all kinds of things that, as you see it, are counter to the Koran - and these radical Islamists say they are doing such things in the name of the Koran. These radical Islamists are "slandering the Koran", to use your phrase from #94, yet the moderates do nothing about it - showing that, in fact, they do not believe the radical Islamists are slandering the Koran.
As a matter of fact, what are you doing about radical Islamists? You've got a blog you've linked to from here. I looked at it. I saw nothing on it objecting to Bin Laden - to radical Islamist riots - to honor killings - or to bombings of public places done in the name of Islam.
If you're so against radical Islam, where are the posts against it on this blog you link to?
#100"I don’t yet see moderate Muslims organizing a war against the radical
Islamists."
Vik, the US is a Superpower. Muslims, are citizens of many countries who share a faith. Also, the war in Vietnam didn't stop the spread of communism.
What we are doing is waging an information war against the islamists. As islamists claim to be followers of Islam, traditional Muslims are challenging them. At stake are the hearts and minds of the global Muslim community, and world peace of course. However, Islam is documented. To try to support their claims, the islamists and their wahabi precursors, have been twisting and misquoting the Holy Qur'an and statements of Prophet Muhammad. We have documented proof of this, which proves their claims to be false.
Below are listed some of the Muslim organisations, working to promote traditional peaceful Islam. They all have websites too, so feel free to read up on them if you like.
As Sunnah Foundation of America
Central Jamai Masjid Ghamkol Sharif
The Muhyiddin Ibn 'Arabi Society
Sufi Wisdom magazine
The Radical Middle Way
#101On my blog, Creed of Islam (Aqeeda) is a page I took from another website, and edited into clear English for easier reading. It highlights the corrupt beliefs of wahabis and deobandis, by contrasting their beliefs with the traditional beliefs of Islam. Wahabis and deobandis are the imams and corrupt scholars who are supporting islamism. The taleban are by and large deobandis, and Al Qaeda are a mixture of wahabis and deobandis. By highlighting their corrupt beliefs, one can hit at the very foundations of islamism.
The islamists try to present themselves as the most Muslim of the Muslims. By showing that this isn't the case, that it is in fact they who are the heretics, completely exposes them as the dangerous frauds that they are. I take this further in my own piece, The Enemy Within.
I have been posting links to Amnesty International, International Campaign Against Honour Killings, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office's Forced Marriage Unit (FMU), for some time now. I'm a member of groups on Facebook which are working to eradicate forced marriages and so called 'honor' killings.
However, Wulfruna Sufi Association is more of an educational organisation, rather than a political one. If our site was filled with constant posts against islamism, there would be room for little else. We'd be diverted away from our main aim of promoting traditional Islam. In the long term, promoting peaceful Islam will reap more rewards than simply attacking islamism.
The islamists feed off a young generation, uneducated in the traditions of Islam. As 'blank slates', it's easy for the islamists to programme them. However, if these youngsters know something of what Islam is really about, the islamists cannot recruit them. I have brought some people out of islamism, by teaching them about traditional Islam.
Traditional teachers see the problem, and are working hard to remedy it. However, much of this work is done at the grassroots, so to speak. It therefore rarely hits the headlines. Of course the media have always preferred sensational stories, as they need to keep their ratings high. Muslim imams teaching their students about universal peace is not going to cut it, in the same way a crazy one with a machine gun obviously will! So more often than not, it's the crazy one that gets into the headlines.
#102you guys have noooo .. idea .. about Taliban now do you ..
ive been with them .. met with them ..
i havent seen a people who are more polite people who are more social and more loving or more hospitality then anyone
by the way .. the picture that you see of a women being beaten by sticks while she is walking.. thats not Taliban ... thats your average Afghan who has no understanding of what Islam is...
i remmber Hikmat Yaar the Commander of the Afghan resistance Movement fighting against the Soviets to Librate their COuntry saying during a tour of his Training Camp ..
all the Fighters had to first Learn to read and write and understand the Quran and the Ahadith and the Rules and do's and dont's of War
and he said
"These people donot even know the words in which to proclaim the Oness of God and they have come for Jihad"
if you must then do research on Who Mullah Omar is
He was the Professor of Islam in Kandhahar University. He started his Fight for Power after during the Brutal Civil war that followed the Soviet AFghan War. the reason .?? some girls were kidnaped from their Hostel Dorms by the Warlords .. that is how he started his Strugle for his COuntry ..
and that is why they call themselves .. Taliban which means (Students) to be Correct it was the Taliban Movement .. or the Students Movement. and they
the Problem is Terminology ... we say Imam you say Leader.. we say Talib you say Student.. we say Jihad you say Struggle.. we say Qital you say Combat ...
Trying to Undestand Diffrent Cultures has always been a problem for the west and a problem for USA in particular.. .
when the Irish first came to USA it was the same.. "why are they not like us.." " why wont they assimilate" ... "why cant they just be like us"
and so was the problem with the People of Color or Black people in general
if you see the news. Mullah Umar Denouced and Condemed the Murder of Pakistani Soldiers and removed some Top Commanders for their Involvement in Paksitan saying
"The Right to Perform an Execution belongs to a state and the Death Scentence can only be passed by a court of Law one must not take law in his/her own hand"
The CUrrent Problem in Paksitan is a result of Afghan NOrthern Allaince people and sumglers posed as Mullah's with Indian Intelligence Funding and Armaments trying to De-stabalize Paksitan ...
if you see carefull .. you wil never see the Taliban speaking against Paksitan.
by the way Taliban are not terrorists but the Former Deposed Goverment of Afghanistan, that had only two years of Peacefull rule before the American War.
a few months before which Afghan Ambasidors visited USA for a Pipeline to be laid down between iran and afghanistan . and one Command by Mullah Umar and the Entire Popy Crop in Afghanistan was Burrned Down raising the mrise of Herroin over night.. for which COllen powel promised some million dollors to Afghan Govt... but soon after happened 9/11 .. that resulted in the arrest of 5 isreali citizens who were talking pictures and recording before the plan hit and smiliing with victory signs using their fingures and recording after the first plane had hit.. and were reported to be from Mosad . and then deported on imigration basis they belonged to a Moving Company that Closed down over night with money still in the drawers and cell phones still on the tables.. and on isreali news channels they said
"Our perpose was to document the event"
#103Mr Anonymous, you might have found they would not be so friendly if you were Jewish or American. One of the problems with wahabis and deobandis, is they see a vast difference between Muslims and non-Muslims. Also, between those Muslims they can bully into supporting them, and those traditional Muslims who will never support them. In Afghanistan, people with traditional Sufi beliefs, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddhists and of course women, were treated terribly by the Taliban. In Saudi Arabia, where wahabism dominates, you find similar although not to the same extent. Islam doesn't support any of this, we are to treat all people as our brothers and sisters, not oppress them! 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhammad stood up against oppression, he taught us never to tolerate it, and never to persecute others. So we certainly shouldn't be supporting a regime that did 1400 years later!
#104I think that basically Paul is making everyone else in this room, especially Nef and Vik look very unintelligent and ignorant and a bad example of Christianity.
Paul is making great arguements, yet Vik and Nef keep bringing up the same ones that he has already addressed, refusing to understand them. Where does one get in life by refusing to understand something they know nothing about? Paul approaches you with love and a wholesome heart and you respond with hatred and racism. By refusing to admit defeat, Vik and Nef are looking worse off than they are intending.
Please stop making our Christian religion look bad and hypocritical. You say Christianity preaches peace and love, but you are definitley not showing this back to someone who is showing it to you.
Nef and Vik, you are the type of people that make being a Christian so hard and sometimes, God forgive me, unappealing.
#105kristina you have got to be kidding. your like a ship heading for the rocks. mere words from a christian makes being a christian less appealing, while beheadings and killing of innocents mean nothing
#106Well said, az!
#107Haha I just think it's funny that that is all you have to say for yourself, the majority of murders in this world are done by "Christians" including the ones here in America that beat, rape, and grusemly murder. Why dont you look at your own side before accusing anothers?
#108"Kristina," you are posting here under two different names, and pretending to be two different people. Your posts, and the post from "Sabrina M" (which not coincidentally expresses very similar views, and which was posted within 15 minutes of your first post), both come from the identical IP address - 71.96.248.23.
Even you may not believe what you are saying, since you feel the need to pretend to be two different people. However, the inaccuracy of your stated position is documented in this previous article: "The Hard Truth for Islam: No Other Religion Produces Such Numbers of Mass Murderers."
142,174 (56,000+ killed, 85,000+ injured) people have been killed or murdered by radical Islamists since 9/10/01. (Link to source - and supporting spreadsheet).
Citing numbers from the same link (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com), Say Anything posts:
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)
More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source)
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (source)
19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source)
The notion that Islam is not unique among religions in the number of such extremists it produces is comforting, but inaccurate. Only Islam produces mass murderers in such numbers. This is a hard truth for which apologists for that religion must be held to account.
#109America is under sieze..not just by islam, but by people like you kristina. and i dont think thats funny. people like you want to take God out of the equation, because you dont believe, you just believe in yourself. America was founded on christian beliefs and its very fabric is being torn apart today. Christianity or islam, it really doesnt matter to you, because you dont believe in anything
#110America was founded by Christians, based upon Christian principles. The main principles upon which the United States were founded, are Rule of Law, Liberty, Fraternity, Equality of all people and Freedom of Religion. You will find these principles are common to most religious people, not just Christians. Certainly Jews, Christians and Muslims all uphold these. A believer in God who doesn't uphold such noble principles is extremely hypocritical. If against these, he is a disgrace to whichever faith in which he claims to believe.
#111amen paul. so many people now adays have their own agenda. They have no respect. If in fact you are a muslim, then there is still hope.
#112You all do not understand Islam. It is very gentle, kind, non politics religion of peace and loves. Media tells lies about muslims.Muslims love Allah and he sees that they loves him, he helps them to get better in life and makes muslims get good house and jobs in Kafir countries.
In uk muslims even dont haf to work for allah provides money from government benefits. They efen can wer their own cloths without problems, but burka sometimes little problem in schools and places like this.
Allah has made muslims strong in west, and he is teaching kafir leaders how to respect ALL religion but most of all ISLAM.It is allahs will that ALL countries will become muslim, and one day there will be enuf muslims to take over all europ.When this happens you will see how good it is to be muslim, for allah will take alcohol away and immorals who go with own sex will be executed, no music or dancing except Islam music. Everybody will then say to Allah Thank you, we did not understand how good it is to be muslim.
I tell you all there is no reason to be afraid of Islam, just accept and see how allah will change your lifes.
peace to you all Allua Ackbar
#113Sorry forget to say I am 14 only but already I no the way to be happy without trubles. If only everybody see with my eyes, it is so sample if you just bleve what allah says. No body want to go hell so sample thing is just trust allah and the prophet mohammed (pbuh). One thing for shure is if you try verry hard to do good, allah will try his best to take you to paradise with servants there to serve you, and wine to. If anybody want to here about islam I will be happy to tell them.
peace to evry country samir
#114sorry samir , but you have it all backwards
#115Samir, doesn't it strike you as odd to say that Islam is peaceful, and then in the same post to say that Islam will force people to stop drinking, outlaw music and dancing, and execute gays?
#116Samir, your posts have been quoted in a new article.
#117vik rubenfeld, don't waste your cheap time and follow this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MM_O02Alg
And after that go and ask your knowledgeable people and intellectuals like Abdur Rahim Green, ask your doctors, your scientists, your church fathers like Yusuf Estes (write his name in google), ask them why they convert to Islam??? And also ask your boxers like Mohammad Ali, your singers like Yosuf Islam
Also follow this link: http://www.islamictube.net/watch/a39a488422da8500786e/German-Doctor-Convert-to-Islam-with-English-subtitles
wake up and also follow this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25-o9OYrrVU&feature=related
most of them are women who know they will never be beaten by their hasbands.
Don't forget to visit these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9DYF87enAE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICzYAnFJekQ
You, your politicians and satan aim to defame Islam, but as your time is cheap so you think cheap and by spending it in cheap ways you can never even scratch ISLAM (the fast growing relegion). Burn by hearing this and wait for the hellfire you will enter soon.
#118Hamad, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a plane, train, bus or restaurant in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for this by being sent to Paradise?
#119Hoe can you beat up your wife? Anyway, how can you beat up anyone? Who gives you the right to do this? When you get married you are supposed to take care of her for the rest of your life not to cause any harm to her. I think, there should be created an organization, an international one, which protects muslim women from these men.
#120hamad you and yours are the evil ones, judged by your actions..you and yours are already a living hell..your soul will never have peace and that gives me peace
#121indeed the religious creeds and dogmas believed in by human beings is quite separate from their character as good or evil which is determined by other factors. unfortunately murder and mayhem throughout history has been practiced by the power elites of all churches and religious institutions. killing for jesus or allah or any god for that matter or idealistic belief system is commonplace right throughout history. the good and evil inclination within all of us must be held in balance and the worship of idols and human sacrifice abhorred. these were the actions and teachings of abraham so many thousands of years ago; but in the main in the hi-tech society of today most are ignorant or indifferent as greed and the worship of the almighty buck has become pandemic. dr asdam rosenblastt
#122adam i gotta hand it to you..you're legend in your own mind
#123Adam, please refrain from insults and ad hominem attacks.
#124YOu people are very entertaining
you talk about tolerance and peace yet condone islam as evil and a plague/ scourge/ cancer on the west
you see that this is the same mentality extremists have and it is the main reason for misunderstandings
a muslim will read this and become extremely angry, just like a christian or jew will hear the extremists' words and will start to hate the muslims
It is quite humorous that you say Islamic states has never lived in peace and attacks other countries frequently, yet in the 1600's and prior it was the west that seemed to be always fighting each other and had primitive science. Most of western science is based on eastern concepts, such as trigonometry, algebra, most math and modern medicine. In the east Islam was united and prospered, the moors entered spains and gave them the gift of architecture and civics; yet islam is the barbaric religion?
Beating the wife is cultural, yet islam does not condone it because, there are certain reasons why men hit women, it is not because he feels like it or that he had a bad day at work. It is due to lack of faith, or doing something very wrong. Islam also does not say that women should not be educated or that women shouldnt work.
the last thing i would like to mention is. Read the quran. If you read it you will find numerous occasions where it tells muslims to tolerate other religions and to never force anyone to force islam onto anyone.
#125from About.com's top 10 myths about Islam.
4. Islam oppresses womenMost of the ill-treatment that women receive in the Muslim world is based on local culture and traditions, without any basis in the faith of Islam. In fact, practices such as forced marriage, spousal abuse, and restricted movement directly contradict Islamic law governing family behavior and personal freedom.
#126from BibleGateway.com....
Exodus 21:7-11 (American Standard Version)
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maid-servant, she shall not go out as the men-servants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath espoused her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a foreign people he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he espouse her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three things unto her, then shall she go out for nothing, without money.
So what's all this about?
#127Sermon: Removing the Silence on Domestic Violence by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf on February 20, 2009 in San Ramon California.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEKJDgXO-U
#129So do Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians and people from every other religion and nation... But the ones who actually live according to the teachings of the Holy Qur'an, the Gospels, or another set of high morals and ethics, do not opress women! There are good and bad people in every society. If you were to judge Western nations by this criterion, they wouldn't come out on top either! Though we have good laws protecting women's rights in the West, women are still oppressed here, in spite of these laws! How many young girls are trafficked from other parts of the world, to satisfy the demand for prostitutes? How many wives beaten? How many children abused? It's tragic, it happens in every society and we all have a duty to do what we're able, to bring these evils to a speedy end!
#130
#131
#132
#133Muslim men are perceived as violent, cruel and barbaric towards women in general, but especially towards their own wives, daughters and sisters.
The fact is that such disgusting behavior does occur in the Muslim world, for many of the same reasons it occurs in the United States: a cycle of abuse in the family, socio-economic factors and jealousy.
Mistreatment and abuse of women, and wives in particular is condemned by Islam.
Consider the following Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira in Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,"The one most perfect in his faith is he whose conduct is best and the best amongst you is he who behaves best towards his wife."
Now consider the following the statistics about how many women are treated in the United States, taken from the 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics
HOW MANY ABUSED
WOMEN ARE THERE IN THE U.S.?
Women age 12 or older annually sustained almost 5
million violent victimizations in 1992 and 1993.
Women and girls ages 12 and up annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults, almost 500,000 robberies, and about 3.8 million assaults.
WHO ARE THE ABUSERS
In 29% of all violence against women by a lone offender, the perpetrator was an intimate (husband,ex-husband, boyfriend or ex-boyfriend).
Women annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults Friends or acquaintances of the victims committed over half of these rapes or sexual assaults. Strangers were responsible for about 1 in 5.
HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA?
Of the 5328 women murdered in 1990, FBI data indicate that about half or more of them by a husband or boyfriend.
VIOLENCE AMONG COUPLES
A minimum of 16 % of American couples experienced an assault during the year they were asked about it, and about 40% of these involved severely violent acts, such as kicking, biting, punching, choking, and attacks with weapons.
A 1993 national poll found that 34% of adults in the United States report having witnessed a man beating his wife or girlfriend and that 14% of women report that a husband or boyfriend has been violent with them.
THE PHYSICAL DAMAGE
CAUSED TO WOMEN AND CHILDREN BY ABUSE
During the last decade, domestic violence has been identified as one of the major causes of emergency room visits by women.
From 20% to 30% of the women who are seen by emergency room physicians exhibit at least one or more symptoms of physical abuse.
10% of the victims were pregnant at the time of abuse.
10% reported that their children had also been abused by the batterer.
THE ECONOMIC FACTOR IN WOMEN'S ABUSE
*Women aged 19 to 29 and women in families with incomes below $10,000 were more likely than other women to be victims of violence by an intimate.
Another thing, "They must accept that in America the laws of Islam are replaced by the laws of the U.S.", and how is that doing for us?
#134and atleast Muslims have rules as to how you should handle such situations, whereas others don't have a guideline and just beat the heck of their wives. Also, how many stories have you heard of a drunk man beating his wife or daughter? ...another reason why drinking is forbidden in Islam.
#135
#136
#137"In Saudi Arabia, and probably all of the Middle East, women cannot even drive a car. They are not allowed an education, and in some parts of the Islamic world, teachers who educate females are beheadded. What kind of religion condones this?"- der alleswisser
Firstly, this is for the safety of the women and it is said nowhere in the Quran that women cannot drive or be educated. This is merely just the law of the government. Men in Saudi Arabia and the rest of Middle East are overly attracted to women as in some parts, they do not have clubs or bars. Have you seen the roads in the Middle East? No traffic lights, no stop signs, no anything. It is true that women cannot concentrate while driving, their mind dazes off into something else, and I am saying this as a woman. Many women would rather have someone drive for them in those reckless conditions of the roads. In the places where the roads are adjusted properly with the traffic lights and ect., women are allowed to drive, but just not alone (again, for safety reasons). As for education, there are many girls-only school in the middle east. Qur'an encourages the pursuit of knowledge by all Muslims regardless of their sex. It repeatedly commands all believers to read, to recite, to think, to contemplate, as well as to learn from the signs of God surrounding us in nature. In fact, the very first revelation to Prophet Muhammad was "READ" and the second revelation talked about God who teaches the people by the "PEN". In either case no gender is advocated, the order is for everyone. Islam does not put any limit on the kind or field of education a woman may choose. Islamic history still has the mark of few women scholars. It is the governments ruling to limit women to such things.
#138Again we come back to Saudi Arabia... The official religion in that country, since it's founding, is not Islam but rather Wahabism - a heretical cult/sect. Wahabis are the most extreme, fanatical, and over the top puritanical sect. Most Muslims, Sunni and Shia alike, do not recognise them as true Muslims. Since coming to power, they've killed and persecuted the scholars of Islam, while spreading poison abroad with petrol dollars. Whatever Islam says, they do the opposite, or take to a crazy extreme! Islam says, "the best among you, is he who behaves best towards his wife" so the Wahabis say, "we'll tell you the best way you can beat your wife"!!!
Islam teaches us to strive to be the best we can be, to serve humanity, to have wisdom, to reflect, and that men and women are equals... Wahabis undermine all these! They encourage people to become terrorists, they have no humanity, wisdom is far from them and they don't treat women fairly! This was not so, until around 200 years ago, when a man called Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab, began to teach his crazy interpretation of Islam!
In a hadith narrated by Ibn Umar: (The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him) said, "O Allah! Bless our Sham [The Levant] and our Yemen." People said, "Our Najd as well." The Prophet again said, "O Allah! Bless our Sham and Yemen." They said again, "Our Najd as well." On that the Prophet said, "There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there will come out the side of the head of Satan." Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 2, Number 147
After the advent of Wahabism and terrorism, many people realised to what The Prophet was referring... Ibn Abdul Wahab came from the region of Najd in Saudi Arabia...
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#144
#145Vik,
Interesting...in post #18 you argue to Komentator, "you overlook the fact that Jewish and Christian societies today do not act on the passages you cite." So you're not denying the passages exist...you are denying that they are acted on. Is it not hypocritical to allow yourself the freedom to pick and choose the verses you follow, and not extend that same opportunity to Muslims? Why not place your emphasis on verses from the Koran which reject the use of violence...whether it be against women or people of other religions? You don't even acknowledge their existance. Instead, you choose to focus only on the "sword verses", without thought or consideration given to context or historical references made within those verses. Such tactics are an open invitation to similar attacks against the violence of the Old Testament.
#146http://www.watchislam.com/videos/index.php?catid=-1
http://islamalways.com/
Following is amazing about hitting wife, you could find more by search in the site:
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/41199/beat%20wife
http://www.islamqa.com/en
#147Fahim, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a plane, train, or other public place in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?
#148Vik,
The best answer to that question, in my opinion, has already been given above by Paul Salahuddin Armstrong...start at post #55 and read from there.
It's your turn to answer Vik...who are the hypocrites in 4.89? Why is offering some kind of answer to this question such a problem for you?
I realize war is necessary, but we must avoid innocent civilians being killed at all cost. With every family torn apart by an errant missile, a new potential terrorist is born. That is why the battle for hearts and minds is the one most critical for us to win. And that is why you're effort to denounce the entire religion of Islam is counterproductive. Paul Salahuddin Armstrong has given you all the evidence needed to demonstrate a well thought out and reasonable interpretation of the Koran that rejects unprovoked violence. Allow him his interpretation, as you would have others allow you your own ways of explaining away the violence of our Judeo Christian culture. Treat others as you would have them treat you...I think that's supposed to be a rule for us or something.
#149Jamie, the best answer to what question? The one I asked Fahim? I asked him because I'm interested in his view, not in what you consider to be "the best" view.
It's your turn to answer Vik...who are the hypocrites in 4.89? Why is offering some kind of answer to this question such a problem for you?
As you know, you and I have discussed this extensively on this thread. If you wish to discuss it further, please do so on that thread.
#150You gave up Vik..not me. Answer the question over there if you want, but since when did you make up the rule that conversations here have to be one on one? It's never been that way before. If I went on one of your Obama bashing threads and tried to discuss Islam, then you might have a point...but the issues on this thread are pretty much identical to where we started...so why shouldn't I be allowed to join the conversation?
You really don't care about anyone else's view...you're here to promote your own view. And that's fine...but you ask this same old tired question of anyone who offers any positive comment about Islam..."do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a plane, train, or other public place in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?"If someone says the Koran makes no such promise of paradise for terrorists, then you're gonna' quote the same sword verses you used before...so I'm just fast forwarding the conversation to my questions which have apparently got you stumped.
I have to say though, I was quite pleased to stumble across Paul's comments...I don't know how I missed them before.
#151You gave up Vik..not me.
Not at all. You started repeating questions I had answered multiple times.
#152Really? Please indicate the post # on the John Quincy thread where you explained who the "hypocrites" of 4.89 are. I missed that one. I also missed your insight on the "agreement" of 9.1, and why I shouldn't believe that this agreement places the later verses into a proper historical reference.
As of yet, you have not made any attempt to address these very specific issues, other than to continue repeating the same "sword verses" out of context, while claiming I have no "evidence". The evidence is there in the text...the part you can't seem to explain. So that doesn't qualify as an answer in my book...it's an avoidance technique.
#153Jamie, it appears to that you don't want to discuss this in context. If you have the courage of your convictions, please raise this issue on the thread where we have been discussing it.
Ah, long discussion! A good one I would say.
I am from Pakistan - and to respond to what vik rubenfeld said in #99:
"I don't yet see moderate Muslims organizing a war against the radical Islamists."
Well, I think you do not see what is happening in Pakistan since September 11! Our soldiers who are themselves Muslims are fighting terrorists that just call themselves muslims but in reality they are not. Thousands of innocent Pakistani people and soldiers are killed in this battle. Only yesterday these terrorists killed more than 50 people in a suicide attach on a shrine, and they injured more than 100!
I would also like to thanks Paul for representing what is true of Islam.
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I would also like to agree with vik (or some other guy) that we do not see any protests against bin laden or anything in muslim countries. We should definitely do that!
I think we should all work together and understand that statements taken out from holy books out of context can mean a lot.
Cheers,
Kamran
And to repond to this:
"Fahim, do you agree that a Muslim who blows up a plane, train, or other public place in the name of Islam, is not rewarded for it by being sent to paradise?"
Although this question is directed to Fahim, I guess its open to any Muslim. So my answer is A BIG NO! Killing innocent people, or even attacking people in the first place is not taught to us in schools. True Islam never permits hurting any innocent civilian in any case, even in case of War. Islam never allows killing or murder of unarmed people.
But YES, we do have such madrassad that are teaching hatred of the worst kind not just against the west but against the moderate muslims living in Pakistan. That is why you see so many suicide attacks in Pakistan happening every other day. These are terrorists linked with politics and nations aiming for a destablized Pakistan who is training and funding these terrorists and funding the brainwashing of the kids so they can go and blow themselves up.
This is unfortunate, and dangerous, not just for us in Pakistan but for all of the world. The Government of Pakistan should do something to shut down such madrassas but sadly our government officers and ministers are too curropt to even think of any issues on the ground. They are just busy in eating out the tax of a common man and the nations wealth and filling their pockets and building palaces and property and assets in other countries. This is one reason why I say that you guys, especially the people in the USA should stop feeding these a holes because none of the aid the US gives to Pakistan is actually being used the right way - just the pockets are being filled of curropt ministers. At the same time, you people in the US should protest against the drone attacks that are taking place in Pakistan - that mostly kill innocent civilians, which hampers the image of US in the eyes of common people.
Just a correction:
"These are terrorists linked with politics and nations aiming for a destablized Pakistan who is training and funding these terrorists and funding the brainwashing of the kids so they can go and blow themselves up."
Here by "who is training and funding", I means the agencies and countries involved, and not Pakistan itself.
#157Kamran...thanks for sharing your thoughts. It seems to me that the foundation of Vik's argument against Islam is found in the infamous "sword verses" from the Koran...such as 4.89 which reads "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper." He and others here offer verses such as this one as proof that Islam is an aggressive religion that instructs its follower to kill or subjugate all others. It's my feeling that these verses are taken out of context, and actually refer to historical battles (largely fought against pagans) and are no more or less aggressive than similar verses found in the Old Testament of the Bible. However, I am not a Muslim, and though Vik has been unable to answer what I feel are legitmate questions that contradict his interpetation of the Koran, I feel inadequate to the task of clarifying the issue in a way that a non-Muslim can understand.
I've learned a lot about Islam in my discussions here...not so much from those who oppose my position, but in the efforts I have made on my own researching Islam. This I can tell you...the internet is flooded with websites such as this one, and very few can be found that offer a counterpoint that the average non-muslim American can understand. Reading the verses, I have to say...overall they leave me more confused than anything else. I think it's the language and cultural barriers, and there are historical references at work that go right over my head. Vik goes right past those verses and focuses on the "sword verses"...that just isn't good enough for me. How anyone can issue a final verdict on a religious text without reading the whole thing is beyond me....I'm sure most Christians would have issue with anyone who treated the Bible in the same manner.
I hope I've made at least a little bit of sense...and hope to hear what you might have to offer on the subject....
#158This thread is one of the most interesting debates I have encountered. The committed intelectual arguments kept me going through 72 posts at one time.
To PAUL in post #72 I quote you: "I'm not denying there are extremists amongst the Muslim community, to deny this would fly in the face of reason. For various reasons which I will not go into here, we are living in a time when there has been an increase in this."
I plead with you, please DO share with us the reasons that Islam has been apparently hijacked by bloodthirsty extremists to the point that we are begging reasonable modern Islamists for your peaceful inetrvention. Why do you choose to: "not go into it here"? What better forum than right here where so much passion, history, and heartfelt opinion has been shared?
You would be indulging my strongest argument against Islam. Because in my lifetime I have seen nothing but aggression from Islam and it scares me. I know that most religions have committed aggression at one time or another, but why is it that during my lifetime, Islam is the only "religion" that scares me? Why has Christianity progressed to peace and love and Islam regressed to aggression? (IN THE EYES OF THE WORLD). Finally if you are a man of peace and love (I believe you are), than why did you choose Islam and not Christianity or Buddhism or some of ther religion where love is so obviously the message today? I'm dying to know why such violence and aggression is associated ONLY with Islam today.
#159The extremists tend to come from one of two initial starting points:
1. Wahabism: A heretical puritan ideology, originating in 18th Century Arabia. Abdul Wahab, the originator of this ideology claimed all other Muslims were evil idolaters and only people of the same mindset as himself were on the right path (or in the Saved Sect). Due to the setting up of Saudi Arabia and the fact that the followers of this heretic were made the official religious authority in Saudi, the version of "Islam" this gulf state has subsequently been promoting, is this version. Hence, the spread of Wahabism and other more fanatical brands of "Islam" in the 20th Century, especially after the Saudis started to exploit their vast oil wealth.
2. Islamism: A political ideology, contributed to by Syed Qutb, Abul A'ala Mawdudi and Taqiuddin al-Nabhani. Qutb laid the foundations of this ideology, by putting forward the idea that all unislamic (i.e. unislamist) governments should be removed, and the Islamic (i.e. Islamist) Khilafat (caliphate - system of government) must be restored. He went on to claim it was a duty upon all Muslims to stive for this end. Nabhani further built on this idea, by laying down the foundations of the envisioned islamist state. Interestingly, this looked awfully similar to a Marxist state! Which shouldn't be too surprising, as it's now come to light that he had indeed based his ideology on Marxism. Which is quite odd, considering many of mainstream Islam's guidelines on economic activity, are actually far more consistent with capitalism!
Another thing happened during the 1930's-40's. The Nazis sent people into the Arab lands, to try to bring Arab tribes into the war on the side of the Nazis. During this time, they distributed Nazi propaganda about Jews and the Allies, which was later to re-emerge in the propaganda of Islamists and Wahabis. Some of the disgusting myths are clearly eastern European in origin, such as the one about a Christian child being sacrificed and his blood used in the Passover bread! That has nothing whatsoever to do with traditional Arab or Muslim views of Jews or Judaism. Indeed, historically the two religions, Judaism and Islam, often coexisted much better with each other than either did with Western Christianity, until the mid 20th Century.
None of the above has anything whatsoever in common with classical Islam, a religion of peace, love, compassion and tolerance. I embraced classical Islam in the year 2000, based upon an answer to my prayers, what I'd read in the Holy Qur'an and the teachings of scholars like Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. If I thought there was anything to these notions of Islam being a "terrorist" religion, I'd have left it many years ago! The truth is, Islam is enlightening and a most spiritual way to live one's life. Wahabism is dead, devoid of spirituality and islamism is basically communism by another name, with the very thinnest of religious disguises. The violence from islamists and some wahabis not only scares you, but vast populations of Muslims around the world. Muslims are usually the first and most common victims of terrorist attacks by such groups.
I do hope this helps, if there is any more information I can provide you with, please don't hesitate to get in touch: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') output += "&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"; else output += unescape(l[i]); } document.getElementById('eeEncEmail_gDA2EKfv6d').innerHTML = output; //]]>
The following group may be worth contacting: http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/. This is a UK based thinktank which has done some interesting research into the origins of Islamism and how best to tackle the phenomenon.
#160Paul,
I much appreciate your historical accounting which I admit has given me a more comfortable amateur viewpoint on "Islam" and its definitions. It must be very difficult to be contantly defending your faith because those with dark hearts have a louder voice.
I am still disturbed however as to why the recent regression rather than progress. I was still looking for a more concrete reason as to why only "Islam" has turned so violent today in our immediate times. It is true that at one time Jews and Muslims co-existed very well. The Nazis certainly influenced many against the Jews, but somewhere along the line, recently, most people have rejected these ideas and I still wonder what is it about Muslims that keeps that fire of hatred burning so fiercely today. In fact it seems to be burning hotter than ever and regressing deeper despite the noble words of a few like yourself. Many people still hate the Jews but why do "Muslims" feel such a naked hatred that compells them to act out on it and blow themselves up over it?
Could it be mostly self-hatred based on inadequacy? The oil wealth of Saudi Arabia may be a major reason you cited as to why the extremist version of Islam has become so prevalent in our lifetimes. Big money brings big power which cultivates a need to control others -keep them down- in order to maintain this drunken euphoria of power. One could find many valid reasons to hate decadent American society today, but that message is lost when innocents are ravaged in the process. America may have lost its way but the west does not purposely blow their children up. That's enough for me. Nothing is an excuse, no matter how opressed a person is, nothing gives them the right to kill innocents on purpose. But you already know this (unlike many so-called Muslims). I don't know, it seems so simplistic and lame for people to be so fanatical about such nonsense. It's like a massive mental illness.
It is a shame that your religion requires so much explanation and effort to enlighten those of us who want the truth. Why do you think believers of classical Islam have allowed these radicals to be so out of control?
I respect the fact that you have embraced classical Islam, and especially the fact that you have linked a group which is trying to counter the corrosive message we fear. This is most refereshing but I still fear it is too little too late in this time. I have reservations about some of the writings so clearly hateful in the Qaran as exposed by Vik. It seems to me that the hateful side is winning today. I also keep wondering why it seems to be historically accurate, yet vastly acceptable to Muslims that Mohammed engaged himself sexually on children. There is no way for me to find understanding with this despite an honest effort to have historical and contextual perspective. It is incomprehensible how a great man could at the same time be so heinous. I don't expect you to answer my questions again but this one burns.
Personally I don't have your historical knowledge but there is one advantage to that. I can only react to what I see and feel without a bunch of filters and variables to digest. I see that the vast majority of cowardly terrorism and murder of innocents is being committed by people who claim to do it in the name of Allah or Islam.
I want to see but do not see true Muslims have a voice of leadership. WHY??? I believe that the Muslims have the right to build a mosque at ground zero but that by doing so it is an act of hate and disrespect. Muslims should all say: "We thank Americans of all faiths for allowing us Muslims to practice our faith in your great country, and because we mourn your losses with you and because we want to demonstrate to you that the 9:11 attackers did not represent true Muslims, we will build our Mosque wherever you so desire as a sign of cooperation and respect". We are a peaceful loving people who want to live in harmony with others".
In the end I believe that men of love and peace will win against hate and war so I haven't lost hope, but it's going to take a huge army of people like you and I to fight the evil Islamic onslaught we are seeing the world over.
Respectfully yours,
Dennis
#161Paul,
I believe it is Dennis Prager who has pointed out that the world's 1 billion Muslims have never assembled as many as 1,000 Muslims in one place to say that those who blew up the World Trade Center were acting against Islam. Therefore the entire notion that Islam is opposed to the destruction of the World Trade Center, and to other lesser or greater comparable actions, appears to be disproven.
Vik,
I thought you might be interested in this article.
My Muslim acquaintances say that wife-beating is not Qu'aranic, but cultural!