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July 2007 Stats for The Big Picture.
I saw this on YouTube and thought it might be a hoax. But I confirmed its authenticity, via the Memri.org site.
Here's the transcript, from Memri.org:
Bahraini Cleric Abdullah Latif Aal Mahmoud on the Rules of Wife Beatings in Islam
The following are excerpts from a lecture by Bahraini cleric Abdullah Latif Aal Mahmoud. Bahrain TV aired this lecture on [J]une 20, 2005
Sheik Aal Mahmoud: If the husband wants to use beatings to treat his wife, he must never ever do it in front of the children. It must remain between him and her. It must be done according to the following conditions: He must not cause bleeding or bruise her body. He should avoid her face and other sensitive parts of her body. As we've said, the limitations on beating are: They must not cause bleeding, they should not break any bones, they should not be on the face, and they should not bruise her. If the husband violates these rules, he violates the rules of Allah. If she has been hurt, the husband is held liable for what he has done, because the woman is not his merchandise. He cannot do to her whatever he wants. Even if the wife forgives the husband, it does not mean Allah will do the same on Judgment Day.
There's your religion of peace. What kind of "religion" is this? Almost everybody in America thinks that all widely-followed religions are about peace and love and understanding. Islam does not appear to be like that. Islam is a religion in which they have official rules about how to beat your wife.
How can it be that the women's organizations of America don't speak up about such things?
You can't even take this cleric's pathetic word at face value. He says you can beat your wife all you want, as long as you don't bruise her. Riiiiiiiight.
Of course, in the Sharia law of the Koran, a woman's testimony in court is worth only one-half that of a man's, so the wife has no legal recourse anyway. Come to think of it, maybe that's why this cleric says that the beatings aren't to be done in front of any witnesses.
Maybe we should ask Representative Ellison what he has to say about this.
Since wife-beating is illegal in America, Islamists here must avoid some practices sanctioned by Islam, or break U.S. law. They must accept that in America the laws of Islam are replaced by the laws of the U.S.
What I want to know is, once they take all the oppressive political ideology out of Islam, and take the Sharia law out, and take out evil practices such as clerically-sanctioned wife-beating, what's going to be left for the reformed Islamists to practice?
I've never yet heard any imam preaching anything publicly except for violence, death and murder. If anyone has seen any video of any imam publicly preaching something about love and kindness, please post a link in the comments section.
#1
#2Thanks for posting this great link, A.M. For others reading this, here’s a quote:
Does the Quran permit husbands to hit their wives, or not?
Summer Hathout is a prosecutor in Los Angeles, an activist for women’s rights, and a Muslim. She denies that Islam promotes domestic violence, concluding in her short article:
“To those of us who know Islam and the Quran, violence against women is so antithetical to the teachings of Islam that we look at those who use our religion against us as misguided, misinformed or malevolent.”
On the other hand, Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue. Scrolling three-fourths of the way down the link, the readers can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.
Where is the truth between the two extremes?
Unfortunately, the male Middle Eastern scholar is far closer to the truth than the American female Muslim activist and apologist (defender), for Sura 4:34 in the Quran indeed permits husbands to hit their wives, though the verse says nothing about rods.
It is true, as Hathout notes, that all societies have domestic violence; however, Islamic societies have it enshrined in their eternal word of Allah, unlike, say, the New Testament, which does not have even a faint hint of it. With such divine endorsement from Allah, can Islam reform on this matter?
#3Do you understand to whom he is talking, and how this would never have been on television even 5 years ago?
I take it you must be against some of Bush’s stated war aims.
Understand it or not, what you might wish for these people is starting to bud with talk like this.
Of course it will not meet your standards, but if you only started learning about Arabs and Islam since Sept 11, 2001, and you have anything more to you than simply “my religion is better than yours” you are missing something.
David M. McClory
God Bless
#4David,
That was very oblique. Please express your views more directly. I’m interested in hearing what you are referring to.
#5u haramis!
##### put ur own subtitle sala propaganda!! u dunno jack!!
u aint you tube: you ########
#6Notice that #5 presents no debate or argument regarding the facts of the matter.
What he says is that the article is “haramis”—which seems to mean unlawful. This appears to be an example of how radical jihadists seek to impose Islamic norms, and Sharia law, on the West. As in the case of wife-beating, the Sharia norms forbidding criticism of Islam are incompatible with our freedom in the West.
#7Vik,
I was born and raised in a moderate Muslim family in India and spent the first twenty three years of my life a devout Muslim. I lost my faith shortly after my twenty third birthday and ‘am not confirmed atheist. In my opinion, Islam has many flaws but so does religion in general and there is nothing unique about Islam and its treatment of women. Hitting women was never condoned or encouraged in the Islam I was familiar with. Please note that the video talks about “what not to do” when a husband uses violence against his wife - so the discussion starts with the assumption that the wife is already a victim of abuse. I think this existing premise is more reflective of Arab society rather than Islam in general. Certainly, there are Muslim men who abuse their wives but as far as I understand, they do not have official sanction or encouragement from Islam itself.
#8Hi Anonymous,
Welcome to the site, and thanks for your post.
I understand what you’re saying about the assumption being that the wife is already the victim of abuse - but the imam doesn’t say that the husband must stop beating his wife; he details the “correct,” accepted way to do it. In #1, A.M. posted a link to a discussion of the verse in the Koran that refers to wife-beating.
What were your thoughts and experiences that led to your decision to leave Islam?
#9The reason muslims do not get along with each other is because the “religion” is all about war, and muslim men like having dominance and access to all the money, jobs, influence, power, and they are not about to share that with anyone else, including their women.
...There is no muslim country that has lived peacefully with its neighbor for even ten years during the past 1400 years. islam is all about war. there is war between the sexes, war between shia and sunni, and war between the house of islam and the non-muslims, who are called in the koran the house of war.
Please watch this short, two-minute video and you will see the way they settle things....if we do not yell at them and shout them down, they will never listen to us...this is a true picture of how they believe the truth should be defended, and if this had not been on TV, it would have ended in the death of one or both....
Indira Ghandi said, “You cannot shake hands with a closed fist.” I personally find I must meet their fist with my own, and pre-emptive fists are the best. Maybe with one in their face, they will actually listen.
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1347wmv&ak=null
When witnessing to a muslim, it must be done loudly and forcefully, because they do not expect anything less than our full force behind what we are saying...anything less than vociferous animation is testimony to the inherent falsehood, they believe.
#10Sara,
Thanks very much for the post. The linked video doesn’t work on my system (Firefox for Mac). Can you post a link to the Memri article that goes with the video?
#11Beatings of women by dominant Islam men is exactly why I changed from Christianity to Islam. I did so, then took a wife and now beat her everyday.
I feel much better about my life after every session with my beloved.
Truly nothing makes a good muslim man feel better than to beat a women!
#12The gentleman(or should I refer to him as “gentleman") is a very sick person. No one has the right to beat another person because it makes THEM feel good. Sounds more like you’re a “GOOD OLE BOY FROM THE DEEP SOUTH IN THE OLD DAYS, THIS IS HOW MY ANCESTORS WERE TREATED!!!!!!!!!!GOD BLESS YOU.
#13Ahhhh Islam. The way forward
#14Ah… Jews & Americans… could there be a more biased and Islamaphobic pairing of like minded ‘people’ ?
You are all going to hell anyway, but hopefully some of you will die of prostate cancer and get there early.
#15#14, very funny. You are accusing us of being Islamophobic, and in the same breath wishing us death.
You’re an example of the racism, hatred and evil taught by radical Islam, and of the danger it presents to a free and Democratic society. Your fellow Brits would be wise to identify radical Islamists such as yourself and expel them.
#16As far as post #5 is concerned, it uses foul language. In fact the entire post has foul language. So need not talk much about it.
For the #9 post, I think it is absolutely correct.
First of all, there is NO tolerance for other religions in Islam. So, in Saudi Arabia, as an example, you never find a church nor a synagogue. Whilst in US, UK, you find a Mosque.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace, it’s a religion of war. In fact, I doubt whether it is a religion at all. The driving force behind Islam is FORCE / SWORD. Islamic countries are characterized by war at all times.
#17I hope God will forgive you all.
If you really want to understand read and learn. This goes for all of you and the cleric… first chapter of the Quran begins with words LEARN ... but no one here seems to understand. Muslims nor Non-Muslims
Finally… yes there is a chapter saying that a man can punish his wife. There is also what to do by adultery rape etc.
But really does the following look familiar?
22 “If a man is discovered committing adultery, both he and the woman must die. In this way, you will purge Israel of such evil.
23 “Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town,
24 you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.
Or just try reading
Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin
so ... what is new here ... all religion has these things… why is this strange ???
Nr #16 yeah yeah .. Crusades / South America / Africa ... go read something.
#18Komentator, you overlook the fact that Jewish and Christian societies today do not act on the passages you cite, whereas Muslim societies today do act on the wife-beating passages from the Koran, and even broadcast on TV speeches telling Muslims how to practice wife-beating.
#19I didn’t overlook it .. that is not the matter of what is in the religion but how much is followed, acted upon.
Question is how many Muslims do act on everything written, and how much they and our media would like us to think they do.
I mean if you compare all monotheistic religion (I intentionally use singular)it is basically the same thing. And people that truly follow it do seem odd to the majority as they have a different base of thinking.
Religion was and is always (mis)used to achieve some other goals ... but that is a totally different topic.
Masses are so easy to play with ....
It is more of a strange thing that right Christian wing was so antisemitic and Christianity in general blames Jews for death of Jesus, and so many European Jews are killed and/or thrown out (not talking about WW2) of Europe. New enemy is chosen and now you can read about “Judeo-Christian tradition of wanting to love each other and help each other have better lives”.
#20if you compare all monotheistic religion (I intentionally use singular)it is basically the same thing.
It appears that the vast majority of Muslim imams disagree with you on this:
- British TV exposed the hate-filled preachings of the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham, England.
- The Society of Americans for National Existence exposed similar events at mosques in the U.S.
- Religious, government, and media leaders in Islamic nations, routinely call for murder to be done in the name of Islam:
Egyptian Cleric Hazem Sallah Abu Isma’il on the Rewards of the Martyr
Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi Justifies the Killing of Israeli Women and Children in Suicide Operations
#21I saw the one from British TV and I live in NL so Hirshi Ali is pretty known here (I don’t believe a single word she says). Can’t open below links you’ve posted. 404 not found.
What’s your point?
What do you want to say? .. Imam preaching this or that .. ALL are such .. whole religion is such.
Should I say so many priests are pedophiles .. ALL are such etc.
get the (big) picture? 
Islam is in media focus it is modern to hate it or to defend it and everybody is doing it ONLY because everybody is doing it.
I this “river” of hate towards one another only one side wins… iblis’s side.
#22The links in #20 have been updated. Check them out.
What’s your point?
What do you want to say? .. Imam preaching this or that .. ALL are such .. whole religion is such.
I’m quoting Muslim imams who disagree with you. They regularly preach killing and murder as part of Islam. This is opposite to the Judeo-Christian tradition. Preachers and rabbis don’t preach killing and murder as a part of Judaism or Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition is one of peace and love. It is opposite to the Islamic tradition as practiced by the Imams quoted in the links in #20.
This is relevant to your statement that “if you compare all monotheistic religion (I intentionally use singular)it is basically the same thing.” This statement appears to be incorrect.
#23Komentator,
You’re quoting from the Old Testament of the Bible. The New Testament (Jesus) does not condone such behavior.
This is from the New Testament:
John 8:1-11
John 13:34
Matthew 5:1-48
Matthew 22:36-40
One would have thought that Mohammad would have built upon this rather than to revert back to (as well as add to) some of the more unG-dly and incompassionate behavior.)
#24Hope you guys have read Prophetic sayings such as “only noble one can show respect to women” or"how can a civilized man beat his wife and hug her at night?”. In Quran itself it is given humans are created in pair (male and female) to live in tranquility. The people quote the above verse doesn’t look ahead or behind - just that. The chapter itself starts with reminding to be repectful of the “womb” that carried you. Much better than New Testament when Jesus said to have ignored his moher and refused to see her even at her request(God forbid - I don’t believe he did) ! In old testament there are numerous abusive verses, if a sincere person looks in to. Statistics shows more women than men convert to Islam! May God guide you!
#25Ali, it appears that the majority of imams disagree with your views of the Koran.
#26During the 60’s the Soviets made it very clear, they were interested in World domination! It was what offset the the cold war and almost spiraled America into a nuclear holocaust. This is not debateable just a historic fact that everyone knows. And during or after these dangerous times no one was ever called a Communi-phobe! or some other ninny name. Americans recognized the problem and dealt with it accordingly. “Evil Empire” might ring a few bells!
Today you are considered bigoted and called Islamaphobe or what ever other ninny names appoligists apply to Americans trying to deal with an ideological cult of death that is sabotaging the entire Globe. “Axis of Evil” might ring a few more bells…
For a about 1,500 years Islam has made it very clear that world domination is part of their ideology.
People forget the past of Islam. But it is very, very important for the world to know that Islam wants to topple the will of people, democracy and culture, and rule the world. Dominating the world with Sharia is an emphasised part of Islam. Islam’s ultimate goal is to convert the developed world including all other non-Muslim countries to Islamic paradises like Saudi Arab, Iran, or Talibani Afghanistan.
People always want to live with their own freedom and expect others to enjoy it. But Islam will take it away as soon as it becomes powerful. Islam will impose its own policy that will force people to obey Islamic tyranny.
Until the west wakes up and realizes Islam is an Ideology that uses religion as a pretense. Then we will never truly be able to grasp intelligibly, the full thrust of our predicament, in the current war.
#27One could argue that "not acting upon" means not following ... in case of #18 ... leads to what? Atheists or Non-practicing theists?
Anyway #26 ... True I agree… same as any ideology it assumes it will spread "the good" around the world. But can you name ONE country in which people are forced to become Muslims in past 1500 years. (Greece? Spain? Hungary? Ethiopia?) Try to do the same with other two parts of monotheistic religion.
#23 So what isn’t Old Testament still valid?
To end my appearing ... don’t wanna ruin your peaceful tradition, tradition as something so old ..even older then Spanish inquisition
I’m sure if you look for it you’ll find other preachers talking rubbish as those imams you quote. I don’t want to promote that as they are not true face of their religion.
Anyway ... LEARN people ..don’t let them teach you…
Scholars and Angels will be the witnesses.
#28#27
There is not a country in the world or the history of the world currently practicing Islam, that is not doing so because of subjugation and slaughter. However you only wanted one example Mr. komentator, so here it goes…
636 CE Sa’ d ibn Abi Waqqas, was sent by the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab to conquer the Persians. The young Sassanid monarch Yazdgird III ordered his chief general Rostam Farrokhzad to block the Arab Muslim Threat. The two armies met on the western side of the Euphrates River, at the village of al-Qadisiyyah. Arab delegations that came to the Persian camp demanded that the latter accept islam or agree to pay the tribute (jizyah).
After Arabs conquered Persia, they forced the Persians to live in (dhimmitude), and treated them less than human. Until of course the conversion was complete and persia was completely subjugated.
and if you want any more examples just ask.. and remember… komentator
“Learn, don’t let them teach you”...(by force)!
#29We are obviously not reading the same history books, nor concluding the same things from them. As for example Greece was 500 years under Ottomans but is still Christian. How? Anyway… what you are saying looks interesting, different at least. I like different points of view and more importantly how a historian came to conclusion(s).
Can you put some names / books so I can look them up in the library.
Btw: we’re both long the topic...
you mentioned Commies
Did you ever read Carl Marx, you have to admit that goal was noble, almost like Utopia, every man would have equality. Of course Eastern Europe, China, Korea and Cuba made a mess out of it. Was it because it works only if all world would believe in equality, was it because that system can not work at all?
To go back to faith. Faith is a matter of choice and to enforce it, is contradictory to it’s definition so it makes no sense to do so.
#30To Komentator: You wanted to know how after 400 years , (14th century until 1821) of Ottoman Subjugation there are still Christians in Greece…
The worst persecutions of Christians in Ottoman controlled Greece took place under the reign of Selim I, known as (Selim the Grim), who attempted to stamp out Christianity from the Ottoman Empire. Selim ordered the confiscation of all Christian churches, Christians were heavily persecuted during his era.
Greeks, like other Christians, were also made to pay the jizya, or Islamic poll-tax which all non-Muslims in the empire were forced to pay in order to practice their religion. Non-Muslims did not serve in the Sultan’s army, but young boys were forcibly converted to Islam and made to serve in the Ottoman military.
These practices are called the “tribute of children” (devshirmeh) (in Greek (paidomazoma), meaning “child gathering"), whereby every Christian community was required to give one son in five to be raised as a Muslim and enrolled in the corps of (Janissaries), elite units of the Ottoman army.
Greek stories tell of mothers crippling their sons to avoid their abduction.
Greek families would often have to relinquish their own sons who would convert and return later as their oppressors.
only Muslims could ride a horse, which made travel difficult. Greek culture declined, and outside the Church few people were literate.
The War of Independence that ensued was catastrophicly savage , even the poet laureate Lord Byron gave his life in the war for the sake of liberating Greece from Ottoman tyranny.
(books on Greece)
Stanford. History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey:
Volume I, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1977
(books on Iran) Caheb C., Cambridge History of Iran, Tribes, Cities and Social Organization, vol. 4,
Bosworth C. E., Cambridge History of Iran, vol. 4,
****most importantly every American should read, Robert Spencer’s: ( The Politically Incorrect Guide: To Islam and the Crusades)
#31Still no explanation of how ... you stated some facts and/or assumptions but still no real reason of how .. as 400 years is a long period. And btw Ottomans had to have Orthodox church as a friend as they didn’t want to go to war with Russians at the same time as Hapsburgs was the main rival.
But from your conclusions/quotations above I guess there is no church in Greece older then 150 years, as they were all confiscated/ruined or whatever???
Thanks for the sources, good to know.
I know they took taxes, every conqueror does that. Took children for Janissaries, not only Greece, but whole empire. I even know a few of those becoming powerful and influential people in the Ottoman empire, after being educated in at the time best schools in the empire. I do have to question the conclusions of forcible act of islamisation.
No one likes colonial force, but being colonized and pay tax, is far better then being colonized and enslaved or killed. But really if someone heavily prosecutes you for that long...in that era of time...and is much stronger...Think! I doubt that islamisation was the goal. If it was then they did an inefficient and lousy job.
I mean we in the west (not all) had different laws for people with different skin pigmentation until not even 100 years ago .. can you imagine that tradition (tradition as something that is old otr at least older the you grendpa can remember)? And who invented the definition in the dictionary that Race is a group of humans with a certain colour… as we all know God created only one human race. (I’m bringign this up as I think that we are raized thinking that there are different races of humans) .. so it can not be a man of faith that invented this.
...anyway… I think that no matter what I say / write here you will still look for whatever reason to dislike Muslims, after all it is so modern to do so these days. I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t like them, it’s not mine to do so. It is, same as in faith, your choice, but just try to take some distance and try some objectivity for a change.
Peace be with you.
#32Wow! Its amazing how children being abducted and forced into Janissaries is ok to you because they were taught at the best schools in the empire. Mothers crippling there own children so they would not be abducted by Ottomans is okay because they were brainwashed and grew up to be influential and important.
WoW! Selim the I known as (Salim the Grim) heavily Persecuting christians and trying to stamp them out in the Ottoman empire does not constitute as forcible acts of Islamisation.
And why you brought race into this i dont know. I guess you were trying to find a way to make the west look bad. No one in the west will dispute that racial discrimination is or ever was evil. That’s why we had the Civil Rights Movement for expample, here in America. To take us out of our backward ways. Just like you said “not even a hundred years ago”. Not even a hundred years ago is a long time. In Islam affronts toward humanity are happening today and are the most prevalent in world. Beheadings, hands being lopped off, public stonings, public rapings, butality against women, sexual repression, honor killings ... etc etc.
You also stated in your last comment to “try some objectivity for a change” but nothing in my statement was subjective. I just listed Historical facts and where to find them.
But I will be hones it is hard not to look subjectively at an ideology that puts you on the same list as feces?
There are a list of Najis (Unclean things) listed in the Quran and Hadith, citing that Kafirs (unbelievers) are Najis.
Anyone who is of another religion that is not Islam be it Christians, Jews, Atheists, Bhudists, Hindus, Zoroastrians etc. etc. are all on the same list of Unclean things. Unbelievers are on the same list as feces, urine , mucous, blood, the sweat of unclean animals, pigs, monkeys, dogs, etc. etc.
So naturally an ideology that puts an unbeliever on the same list as human waste, will undoubtedly not procure much respect from anybody, who is knowledgeable of the fact. Maybe one of the many reasons for your ambiguous statement about me disliking muslims, “after all it is so modern to do so these days”.
Maybe I’m just trying “to take some distance and trying some objectivity for a change”.
komentator I beleive you are the one that lacks objectivity if you can truly be appologetic towards an ideology, that fosters this type of backwards thinking. But hey it is a free country. If it were an Islamic one you would’nt have the right to your own opinion. For example just recently in Iran:
Hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has banned Western music from Iran’s radio and TV stations, reviving one of the harshest cultural decrees from the early days of 1979 Islamic Revolution. (2005 The Associated Press)
Geez komentator you wouldn’t even be able to listen to the radio not being able to listen to the music of your choosing because Ahmadinejad says so, doesn’t sound very objective or impartial to me!
ps… sorry so long, i was just trying to hit on all the points you made.
#33Oh and by the way komentator on the Ottomans collecting (Jizya), you said all conquerors took taxes. Not all conquerors imposed taxes on people for the sake of practicing there own religion. Only Muslim conquerors did this. It was another method of forcible Islamization.
The Quaran explains there are three ways for Islamization. First , by proselytizing through word of mouth, however if unbelievers do not except the word, then Second, they must be forced to pay the (jizya) and Third if the Jizya is not paid then by the Sword.
#34see .. the moment you use the term "racial dicrimination" means you yourself take it for granted that there is more then one human race...wrong! (It is connected with big scale colonisation, that’s why I mentioned it, but this is besides the point.)
I said that your story was a probably a fact at least I take that it is as I found it in so many books ... young children taken etc.... Again in 500 years if what you are saying/quating while concluding from those facts is true ... a louzy louzy job...don’t you think? Does this make any sence to you? How long did it take for Hutus to almost whipe out Toetsis .. 2 month?
Unfortunalty I read and met some Muslims that stated how all others are kafir, when I asked them to find where and how did they came up with that frame of mind… They did kind of a same thing as you nef… copy/paste someone elses conclusions and irelevant facts… However why would it be ok to marrie a Christian or Jewsh if they were "human waste"? And why are Moses, Jesus, Meryem… so respected in the Quran? As many other things that are the same ... after all .. one God .. one faith.... I guess you and them are the same kind of ppl.
To cut the story short I was tought to look for the good in people… and maybe you are too but I’m pretty sure you’ll read this and look for some more stuff to say about how Islam is bad and should be erased.
anyway .. not planning to waste more time debating .. it’s fun when you see ppl get so fired up about something they don’t know (me included)
God knows best!
#35Komentator, let me ask you something. Do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a plane, train, bus or restaurant, does not go to paradise?
#36Any MAN (so also any Muslim)… of course .. (just to be sure ..God will judge everybody, not me)
Vik,
I thought you might be interested in this article.
My Muslim acquaintances say that wife-beating is not Qu’aranic, but cultural!