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On Tuesday the Saudi Ambassador to the United States threw a big shebang at the Millenium Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles.
Check out the woman with the camera crew -- she was showing the Saudis that American women don't wear burqas.
His Royal Highness Prince Turki Al-Faisal, Ambassador of the United Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to The United States, irritated me at the start of his remarks, by beginning in Arabic. I considered this rude, because he didn't appear to offer any translation. Immediately non-Arabic speakers were excluded from what he was saying. This goes ominously well with the Koranic teaching that other religions are inferior to Islam. As a matter of fact, the Ambassador went out of his way to point this item of Koranic teaching out to us. From an audio recording of his remarks:
We Muslims not only accept but we also revere and adore all of the prophets, from Noah to Jesus and Mohammed, [odd that he mentioned no famous Jewish religious figures. -- ed.] and hold them equally as prophets of God sent down for the education and betterment of mankind. We also consider Jews and Christians as people of the book, and their books, whether as Torah or New Testament, are revered by Muslims, as we revere our own book, which is the Koran, which we believe is a completion of the revealed books, whether it is the Torah or the New Testament. And so, this is the ideal state.
In other words, the world's other religions are incomplete. Only Islam is "the ideal state." Perhaps that is part of the reason the Ambassador chose to open his remarks in a language used only by the Muslims in the room.
The Ambassador didn't mention that the Koran instructs that "people of the book" be treated as second-class citizens, but he was forced to admit it when an audience member spoke up and asked aloud if he would comment on the status of churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The Ambassador then stated that none were permitted. Jews and Christians were welcome to worship all they want... in their homes. But congregation in places of worship, is forbidden to them. Here's the video:
Click image to play. Requires Flash.
Listen to how he sounds. He doesn't sound hopeful. He sounds like he submits to something sadly, and like he's determined for us to submit too. "Islam" means "to submit." From Wikipedia:
Islam, "submission (to the will of God)" is a monotheistic faith, one of the Abrahamic religions, and the world's second-largest religion. Followers of Islam are known as Muslims or Mohammedan. Muslims believe that God revealed his divine word directly to mankind through many prophets, and that Muhammad was the final prophet of Islam.
...Muslim, a follower of Islam, an agentive noun meaning "one who surrenders" or "submits" to God.
What's wrong with this belonging in our culture, is that, as we have seen in the riots over the Mohammed cartoons, and as we see again in the treatment of non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, to Muslims, submission means sacrificing our freedom of speech, and treating non-Muslims as second-class citizens with severely restricted freedoms of all kinds.
I'm in favor of doing business with the Saudis. But until Islam reforms and learns not to physically attack people of other faiths, it is important to do as Robert Spencer has advised:
#1
#2Thanks for this great comment, Olah. I've just quoted it in a new post.
#3i love how the bashing begins immediately. sounds like a pretty resentful arab hating zionist is writing this article. its sad how ready we are to POUNCE at anything that doesnt worship jews, christians or the west. we have to get over ourselves, and really soon too before we get thrown back into one nasty and probably eterna diaspora.
#4Yes, george, you're right. How silly of us to prance on a theocratic misogynistic state that won't even allow women to drive cars or walk outside the house by themselves. Let's forget about the "Zionist" BS for a minute. Tell us please george, what is so great about the way that Saudi Arabia conducts itself? Please, provide details and examples. No generalizations please.
-OC
#5irritated me at the start of his remarks, by beginning in Arabic.
Usually most muslims recite a chapter from their holy book (quran) which is in arabic . the quran is translated in english but muslims prefer to read the Quran in Arabic like the Torah is recited in Hebrew .
#6Wahabism isn't Islam!
http://www.amislam.com/warning.htm
#7Noah isn't a Jewish figure? You Jews want the eart and 5%. No one believes your ######## anymore.
And no muslims are attacking others of different faiths. Zionist Jews did 9-11,7-7, 3-11 AND most other terrorist attacks!!!
#8peace on you by brother Olah Chadasha ..
and by the way ...
can any one here tell me the place where moses (may peace and blessings of God be upon him) Spoke to God from through the Burning Bush ... and where that place located and its under whose? control?
never mind you searching let me help out a little
the Place is in the Valley of Tawa' in Saudia ... and its called the monestery of St. Chathrines..
it was established after the Mother of Constentine the first Christian roman Emperor, set out to look for it and found it and built on that place a monestery and that monestery still exists today in the heart of Saudia .. run by Christian Monks .. and many christians go their as a pilgramage site
i hope this would clear your views about non-muslims in Saudia
#9my dear Muslim Brothers...
the Ture Jews are our Brothren ... the sons of Ben-yameen, Yahooda, Yusuf, and the rest of the Children of Yaqoob (jaqob)
we should not resent them .or hate them .
these convert jews these european jews who donot belong in the arab lands.. and are running their own agenda... they are the ones who cause us to fight with each other they are the ones running the isreali goverment and killing thousands of people... in palestine..
The land of Isreal was given to the Jews by God.. but those jews where the Ture Jews the ones Moses rescued from the Cursed Pharoh ... not to those who later converted to judaism .. the semetic jews have all right to live in the promised land, the form of Goverment is a whole diffrent matter, there can be national unity
the arab jews had lived with us for centuries and there was never a problem there are still the true who live in india in pakistan in egypt in saudia and in yemen
we are not against the True Jews, but we are against these europeans who occopy our land and have been trying to occupy us forever now
#10anonymous,
> we are against these europeans who occopy our land and have been trying to occupy us forever now...
Given that you live in Kuwait, this is probably what you've been told, but the facts are far different.
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands. It was created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled for four hundred years by the Turks who lost it when they were defeated in World War I. There were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians.
...In 1947, the UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the Arabs. The Arabs rejected their state, and launched a war against Israel. This is the primal cause of the Arab refugee problem.
The Arab refugees were roughly 725,000 people who fled because of the war that the Arab states - not the Palestinian Arabs-started. The Arab states - dictatorships all - did not want a non-Arab state in the Middle East. The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations vastly outnumbered the Jewish settlers in the Turkish Empire, initiated the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created state of Israel on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war of annihilation against the Jews. The war failed. But the state of war has continued uninterruptedly because of the failure of the Arab states -Saudi Arabia and Iraq in particular - to sign a peace treaty with Israel. To this day, the Arab states and the Palestinians refer to the failure of their aggression and the survival of Israel as an-Nakba - the catastrophe.
Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, and no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.
...It is indisputable that there was no theft, because no one complained of any. No Arabs were driven from their homes. In fact, as a demographic study published by Columbia University demonstrates the Arab population of the area grew tremendously during this period in part because of the economic development that the Jews helped to generate. Between 1514 AD and circa 1850, the Arab population of this region of the Turkish Empire was more or less static at about 340,000. It suddenly began to increase around 1855, and by 1947 the Arab population stood at about 1,300,000-almost quadrupling in less than 100 years. The exact causes of this population rise are beyond the scope of this essay, but the causal correlation between this independently documented phenomenon and the Zionist enterprise is beyond rational argument.
(Continued in next comment)
#11(Continued from previous comment)
Far from driving out any Arabs, stealing their land or ruining their economy, the work of the Jewish pioneers in the 19th and early 20th centuries actually enabled the Arab population to quadruple, the economy to enter the modern era, and the society to slough off the shackles of serfdom that typified the effendi-fellah (land-owner/serf) relationship of the Ottoman era. An Arab working in a Jewish factory or farming community could earn in a month what his father earned in a year eking out a living as a subsistence-level farmer using medieval technology. Arab infant mortality plummeted and longevity increased as the Jews shared their modern medical technology with their Arab neighbors.
However, the people you are defending, are guilty of the actions you condemn. Arabs were never driven from Israel, but Jewish people were driven forcibly out of their homes in Arab nations. From Wikipedia:
Mass murders of Jews and deaths due to political instability did however occur in North Africa throughout the centuries and especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Jews were also forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad at certain times.
...In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews (see table below) living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 7,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya (which was once around 3% Jewish), the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.
Please read that last paragraph carefully: 800,000 Jewish people, driven from their homes, so that less than 7,000 remain in the Arab world today - per Wikipedia.
#12Of course in no way am i Condooning the Ottomans. or the Abbsids or the Omyads .. all of them had been tyranical rullers and not muslims
but that does not mean that in any way one should generalize and stereotype the entire islamic nation claiming that they are ruthless and cruel towards the jews
yes im sure that the jews were persicuted and im sure the ottomans did it
but then again .. a famous rabbai during his speach in USA said
"The muslim Rule in spain was the Golden age of our Diaspora" .. since the Christians living in spain used to persecute the jews .. for being the mudrers of Jesus Christ (may peace be upon him) ..
and while under Islamic Law .. the Non-muslims living in an Islamic state are called Dhimmi or
the people of the dhimma or pact of protection and the Law state
any one Hurting a Dhimmi by toungue or by action, or hurting psychologically or physically is hurting the Prophet MOhammed (peace be upon him) in the same manner..
and under islamic Law thats a grave sin and severly punishable and at times even by death
but remember the Pelestinian Problem has never been a jewish vs. Muslim problem .. if you recal your history well .. you might remember George Habash the very Active and high ranking Leader of PLO . this is a Arab vs European Strugle but the media tends to change it into a Jewish vs. Arab or Jewish vs.
now comming from Kuwait has nothing to do with it... this argument will take the whole debate in a wrong way .. i could easily say that since you are from USA .. may be thats what you are taught .. and since Isreal is a great Ally of USA thats the reason for such information being pumped into the books and media to gain public support.. .. but then that would be wrong
(continued below)
#13(continued from above)
and i doubt that Isreal was the cause of all that wealth in all of arabia.. most of the wealth in Arabia is Oil based... as far as the palestinians go ... and the arabs in isreali factories do earn but you cannot dis-regard the fact of how many people are killed when the isreali armies attack the Arab homes
do take note.. that isreal is a secular country .. and a secular country cannot be having the reason and basis of its being and creation extracted from a religious book
yes Jews are a nation and they deserve to live side by side arabs... in the same land... they have their laws they have their rights.. and so do the arabs muslims or christians. and the holy city is no one nations property.
and the lack of jewish people in the arab lands is due to the fact that now they have thier own place to live in ..
but persicution of jews cannot be attributed just to the ottomans... the jewish race has somehow found itself always at a point when people have troubled them , the Egyptian Pharo did it, then the Roamns persicuted them , the Christian Roman Empire persicuted them ..
if religion is the problem and you do belive that religion is the major driving force behind this entire thing...
then the Talmud declares the entire Human Race as Animals created to serve the Jewish people (the real humans), and there is a clear discrimination between the Jewish and the Goams and gentail (non-jews) ..
(American Documentary-The Other Side of Isreal)
declearing that the Jews have the right to rule them and use them as they wish. but then again the European jews are good in this manner that they are not devout jews who follow such Racist doctrine
imagine what it would do when young jewish children are brought up with that doctrine?
(continued below)
#14(Continued from Above)
Im not saying the entire Jewish Religion is False not bu to the contarary the Jewish Religion is a True Abrahamic Religion from God Himself and Moses (peace be on him) was a true Prophet. but there are a lot of things that Moses did not say and no Prophet could say but then you have to read the bible cover to cover
numbers 31:17-18
Deuteronomy 20:13-20
Samuel 15:1-4
(now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have ,and spare them not , but slay both man and woman, infant ans suckling, Ox and Sheep , camel and ass)
Psalms 137:1-9
Hosea2:1-4
HOSEA 13:16
Ezekiel 23:45:48
Chronicles 15:13
Kings 9:7-9
comming back to the point
their where breif periods of rlief for jews such as the after Conquest of Jurusalem by the Muslims and but then there was a subsiquent conquest by the Crusaders who persecuted not only Muslims and jews but also christians of the holly city which was again a european vs. arab and has never been seen anything but in Arab and Muslim History Crusades are a little known problem in the muslim community
then Salahdin reconqured and all had rights to the city just like before, then muslim conquest of spain is termed by many jewish scholors termed as the goled ero of the diaspora by the jewish rabbais and so forth . since the jews had no longer to fear the Spanish Persicutors and no longer live by chaning their names and hiding their true identity.
yes the ottomans if they persecuted anyone they were not just jews , they persicuted the armanians. they tourtured and killed thousands of muslims as well and that was not a islam vs other religion problem that was a turk vs arab problem as it is today a arab vs european problem in Isreal
as far as the problem within the jewish community goes..
the Devout Jews want the Third temple of Solomon built , but the European convert Jews are the ones holding the power and that is not top on their priority list.
the Problem is very very deep rooted and i doubt there will be a solution very soon but one has to know it from in depth rather then see what the news has to offer or to follow what the every one is saying and term it as truth
once again as one of the founding father of USA Abraham Lincon said
"Donot follow the band wagon when every one is..."
#15Of course in no way am i Condooning the Ottomans. or the Abbsids or the Omyads .. all of them had been tyranical rullers and not muslims
I didn't refer to them. I referred to what's been happening since 1945. As I noted in #11.
From Wikipedia:
Mass murders of Jews and deaths due to political instability did however occur in North Africa throughout the centuries and especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Jews were also forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad at certain times.
...In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews (see table below) living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 7,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya (which was once around 3% Jewish), the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.
Please read that last paragraph carefully: 800,000 Jewish people, driven from their homes, so that less than 7,000 remain in the Arab world today - per Wikipedia.
How can you justify driving 800,000 Jewish people from their homes?
#16How can you justify driving 800,000 Jewish people from their homes?
--------------------------
That is a question to ask the Jewish AGENCY who wanted to populate Israel . If Jews remained in the Arbic countries where they lived , who would populate ISrael ? who could go for aliyah ? naiem Giladi a zionist jew said jews Bombed Jewish cafes in Baghdad to go to Israel . Samir AL Naqqash an Iraqi Jew said he was Handcuffed and taken to israel by the Jewish agency .
there are many thousands of Jews Living in morocco and Djerba in tunisia and they are among the richest in Morocco and tunisia . there are 250.000 Jews in IRAN alone and they are not ready to leave , even if they were offered lots of money by rich jews (guardian Link ) to go to Israel .
#17sorry 25.000 jews in iran not 250 . My mistake .
#18leyla, please provide some links to support your statments. The Wikipedia article I linked states that 800,000 Jewish people were driven from their homes - they did not leave voluntarily.
#19Firstly, I agree with the vast majority of your article re. the inherent intolerance of Islam.
Judaism is intolerant too, descriminating against 'gentiles'; there are numerous examples of this in the Torah.
We should, however, allow Muslims, Jews and Christians to be free from the shackles of this nonsense. A broad acceptance of religion defended by a secular state. Saudi is a horror story; Israel is kind of horror story. You can't defend a religious "God promised us this land" state by criticising another. The problems of Saudi and Israel have the same cause: religion.
And I'm rather surprised you didn't know that, in formal situations, muslims start a speech with "Bismallah al-rahman al-raheem". U should get out more!
#20Andy, are you aware that:
The population of Israel is currently 16.2% Muslim.
The population of the Palestinian territory in Gaza is currently 0% Jewish.
The Jewish population of Arab countries is currently slightly above 0%, after those nations drove about 800,000 Jewish people from their homes by force.
These numbers prove that there is tolerance towards Arabs in Israel, but there is state-sanctioned genocidal behavior towards Jewish people in Arabic nations.
In light of these facts, your statement that Islam and Judaism are equally intolerant, is absurd.
#21What ever the religious conflicts happening around the world the issue of palestine and israel debates through proper medium. Presently palestine means Hamasand fatah group. They are no longer for the palesinian causes. Religion is broughto to play at the very interest of some infamous islamic country. There is no secular independant movement in palestine. Each argue personnally and publicly palestine is for islam. It is the private talk everywhere. Even if a local pakistani who doesnot know the president of pakistan well aware of the issue of palestine-israel, who talks violently. Islamic colour is given everywhere. When trade centre down to ashes everybody made party at our muslim majority (arab)offices with laughter and clapping. But the dead include muslims too.
#22Originally posted on http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/ on 30. December, 2008
Salaam, Shalom, Peace!
My sympathies are with ordinary Palestinians and Israelis who are caught up in the present mess. In the past I have disagreed with many actions taken by the Israeli government regarding the Palestinian people. However, I have to admit the present situation is a direct result of the actions of Hamas. While the religion of Islam allows one the right to defend oneself, one’s family and one’s country, Islam absolutely forbids attacking ordinary civilians - especially women and children. Though the air strikes by Israel will unfortunately result in some civilian casualties, at least they’re not deliberately attacking civilians…
Many people downplay the rocket attacks by Hamas. Even when there was supposedly a ceasefire between Israel and Palestinians, Hamas was firing rockets into Israel. Though only small and usually few, this was done on a regular basis. In total, hundreds or thousands of rockets were fired each year! Hamas sees every Israeli as a legitimate target! Each time, they were firing into civilian towns and villages close to the border with Gaza - not military targets. Hamas are breaking a very clear Islamic prohibition not to attack civilians! Even Hamas has openly stated many times, they do not recognise the State of Israel’s right to exist and we all know they would change that if it was within their power to do so… How can Israel deal with them when they behave in this fashion?
If Israel were any other country, they would also take military action against a neighbouring state or territory, that was firing rockets into their country, killing and wounding their citizens. While I do not like the situation in Gaza, I do not like the way Israel has often treated Palestinians, I can’t blame them for their recent actions towards Gaza. How can I support Hamas? They have been bad news for Palestinians even before, but especially since they came to power in Gaza. I strongly urge my fellow Muslim bothers and sisters, to think carefully how we can best serve the interests of ordinary Palestinians and not to believe the current propaganda trying to get us all to back Hamas. If it weren’t for Hamas’ rockets, would Israel be bombing Gaza now? If it wasn’t for their intolerance of Israel, wouldn’t the peace process have progressed further? These are important questions for us to consider. As Muslims we most certainly must look out for our brothers and sisters of faith around the world, but most importantly, we must do what is right! Should we support other Muslims if what they’re doing is not right? Surely we will be questioned!
The fact is Israel exists, whether we like it or not! Many Israelis have fought and died for their country over the past 60 years. The original Palestine no longer exists. Today Palestinians are a stateless people, this is truly a tragedy for them and my heart goes out to them. Any solution to their plight must take into account Israel’s existence and the present reality. Many Israelis are the third or four generation born in that land, they live in a functioning state.
Palestinians and Israelis must learn to come to terms with their present situation. If they both want to live in peace and security, they need to accept and eventually learn to love one another. They need to learn what we all need to learn. We all live together on the surface of one planet, we are all brothers and sisters. We need to share this planet and want for others what we desire for ourselves. Only when we accept this and learn to change accordingly will we find true peace, happiness and security! We will never attain this through bombs and incessant warfare, but only through changing ourselves!
http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/hamas-and-israel/
#23Originally posted on http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/ on 16. January, 2009
I was just asked by a friend to vote on on a CNN pole, whether I supported Israel or Palestine. I didn’t vote, because I support neither side in this ridiculous, ongoing inhumane conflict that has caused so many people to loose their lives. I attended a march in London last weekend, calling for a ceasefire in Gaza as I’m really upset by the appalling loss of life. But I’m against Hamas as much, or maybe even more than I’m against Zionism.
The only solution is for people to give up their misplaced hatred of their brothers and sisters in humanity! When people make this first step towards ‘loving thy neighbour as thyself’, we will see peace! May the Lord help us all love thy neighbour as thyself! I support neither Israel or Palestine, but all the people of Holy Land living in Peace, Love and Harmony with each other!
Paul Salahuddin Armstrong
http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/israel-or-palestine/
#24Paul salahuddin (???) Armstrong is correct. "Brothers and sisters" in humamity, indeed. These, let us be reminded though, are Christian sentiments, not muslim. I think the hope that all in the "Holy Land" will live in "Peace Love and Harmony", is virtuous but over-optimistic. I don't wish to slay a beautiful hypothesis with an ugly truth but.....loyally muslim Hamas will, glancing at their Charter, tell you why.
#25They are indeed Christian sentiments, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact they're Islamic and Jewish as well! Shared by all who truly walk in the footsteps of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may God's blessings and peace be upon them all!
Did he mention the fact that Jews are NOT allowed to be buried in Saudi soil? Or, as you pointed out, that any-one of another faith are not permitted to publically pray or show any symbols or behavior(s) of their faith, outside of Islam? Who does this guy think he's kidding?!? Even with government controlled press in Saudi Arabia, what's happening in there is trickling out to the rest of the world. Is he actually convincing anybody with his meaningless diatribes?
-OC