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You know you're doing some good blogging when you are getting comments that are as good as blog posts. Today once again I'm quoting a comment from Olah Chadasha. Olah commented on this post, in which I quoted the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S. as admitting that Saudi Jews and Christians are forbidden to congregate for worship, are forced to worship only in their own homes, and are forbidden to have churches or synagogues.
Olah adds:
Did he mention the fact that Jews are NOT allowed to be buried in Saudi soil? Or, as you pointed out, that any-one of another faith are not permitted to publically pray or show any symbols or behavior(s) of their faith, outside of Islam? Who does this guy think he’s kidding?!? Even with government controlled press in Saudi Arabia, what’s happening in there is trickling out to the rest of the world. Is he actually convincing anybody with his meaningless diatribes?
And let's be specific about what it means, that non-Muslims are forbidden to do such things in Saudi Arabia. It means, that if the non-Muslims do such things, they will be physically attacked. They will be jailed and subject to severe punishment.
#1
#2AM, you are exactly correct. Vik, thanks for the kind words. I am just trying to be honest and get the truth out. Same as you. If we want true peace, the truth will play a big role in accomplishing that feat. The world must know what's going on here.
-OC
#3“Shariah Culture Uses Violence to Forbid Freedom to non-Muslims”
Your comment comes to me as surprise,
How many non-Muslims are physically attacked or being sent to jail in Saudi Arabia?
I hope nobody, but, I can give you the list of hundreds of Muslims around the world (western world and Israel) who have been sent to Jail because they practiced Islam.
If you really want to be convinced by logic then please visit Christian Holy City the Vatican City. They also, don’t allow any non-Christian to practice their religion outside their home.
If you are not convinced then just consider it like holocaust law in Europe.
#4Your logic is wanting.
The Pope and Catholic clergy would NEVER call for death! It is against every tenant of Christianity!
You use Vatican City as an example and while I am not a Roman Catholic nor have been to Vatican City - or Rome - I do know these facts:
The size of Vatican City is 108.7 acres (Acres not miles!)
It is surrounded by Rome
The population living within Vatican City is under 1000
All lay workers(about 3000) reside outside of Vatican City in Rome and its suburbs
The type of government is Ecclesiastical
All government officials besides the Pope (Bishop of Rome) are Cardinals
It is sovereign territory of the Holy See and location of the Apolstolic Palace (the residence of the Pope)
Vatican City can be said to be the governmental capital of the Roman Catholic Church of both East and West
You feel this is valid example?
To openly practice a non-Roman Catholic religion on this property would be like me walking into a Mosque and practicing Judaism or Christianity. Is it simply inapproriate and unseemly. (I wonder what would happen to me if I did thatin an Islamic country?)
Please note this: The largest mosque in Europe was inaugurated in 1995 in Rome, the Pope’s diocese; there is no Church in Riyadh.
Now as to another aspect of your reply:
We, in the United States, are doing all that we can do to accomodate our Muslim citizens and neighbors. In Virginia, where I live, they are enacting strict laws as to the proper labeling. advertising, and monitoring of Halal meat and products. In addition, I have not seen any guards, police, protesters, or anyone harrassing Muslims outside the Islamic Center on Massachusetts Avenue - it is always a peaceful sight.
Hate crimes and rascism are against the law and many in this country have been jailed who have harrassed, vandalized, attacked, and even murdered victims of another race, religion, or sexual orientation.
Muslims have flourished in this country and there are ways to redress grievances through law.
In 1999 the world was outraged as Christian Serbs were guilty of genocide and other atrocities against Kosovar Muslims. The United States went to war to help the Kosvar Muslims and the American people supported this as a just and appropriate action. 'Ethnic cleansing' is intolerable to us!
When you mention the Holocaust I would caution you to reflect on Shariah law in the same light as the Nuremburg Laws; both deprive people of basic human and civil rights.
By the way, the Holocaust was not limited to the Jewish population, but anyone other than the so-called, 'aryans'.
And 'rights' as viewed by Americans come from this, our creed:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness".
It is getting more difficult to believe that Islamic nations and people believe in human and civil rights.
As a Christian I will continue to pray that the true spirit of love and peace descend upon Islam.
#5Juned, well, then please give that list, because I'm really curious to know. Please give the list of the "hundreds" who have been sent to jail for practicing Islam in Israel. Well, at least give a list of 101 people since you do use the words "hundreds". Please, also give the specific reasons for why they were sent to jail.
As I've said previously, there is no such thing as freedom in the press in the Middle East, outside of Israel. Therefore, NO-ONE knows how many people are being persecuted, murdered, etc for being non-Muslim in countries. You hope nobody, but because of their public laws concerning non-Muslim citizens, the reality and logic would most likely say that people are being physically attacked and sent to jail for being non-Muslim. Please, when you make granidose statements like you are, please provide sources to back them up.
-OC
P.S. Seeing that you're from Germany, thank you for invoking the holocaust to prove your point.
#6Dear brothers, I appreciate freedom and liberty to Muslims in your countries, but, before discussing it any more, I want to clear some misconceptions:
1) Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world, which forbids religious practice out side the home for Non-Muslims.
(To make it shorter, I leave an exceptional case of Saudi Arabia)
2) No other Islamic country does that
3) It has nothing to do with Shariah (except for Saudi Arab),
Shariah allows any Non-Muslim to practice his/her religion by his/her way, this can be widely observed in Islamic countries
4) Shariah prohibited preaching of any other religion than Islam and converting a Muslim to a Non-Muslim
(Non-Muslims are allowed to change their religion)
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Before counter comments, I want you to take brief look at the history.
1)How many Christians, Jews and Hindus were killed, when Muslim Conqueror conquer their respected territories.
2)Comparing it with Christian Conqueror who killed millions of Muslim when they conquer the Palestine, part of Turkey, Bosnia, and Spain.
3)Ottoman hierarchy was the only safe place for Jews, in dark ages of Europe.
4)The tragic incident of holocaust was not done by Muslims.
5)Any individual act can not be designated to Shariah.
Recently, In Iraq and in Afghanistan, western sources say: over 150,000 people have been killed, so far.
On other hand, same freedom Fighters or Terrorists (From their point of view) result less than 10,000 killing (amongst them both Muslims and Christians) in Sudan and Indonesia, Where Christians are fighting for their Freedom. In fact in Indonesia, they have been given independence.
Despite all allegations against Islam, Islam still holds the small number of people who were killed, fighting against Islam.
Note:
I agree with your point of view about Vatican
#7Juned, thank you for making more succint dilleniations, but you do NOT excuse your non answers or your counter-points. As you did, I will go through them one at a time:
1) You stated that you knew "hundreds" of Muslims who have been arrested and jailed for practicing Islam, yet you have not named ONE person so far.
2) Saudi Arabia is NOT the only Arab/Muslim country to disrespect other religions. They are not the only ones to execute some-one for practicing a religion outside of Islam. Or, did the possible execution of a man in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity some-how skip your mind, or have you not read the news? Another example is the fact that the last Synagogue in Iran has been detroyed by the Iranian government in order to be turned into a Mosque. The synagogue is calculated to be thousands of years old. Shall I continue and talk about the persecution that people of other faiths face in countries like Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc?
3)It has to do with the fact that Saudi Arabia follow Wahhabiast extremist teachings, so they are the most extreme versions of their brother countries, but they are NOT the only country to persecute their citizens of other faiths.
4)Actually, hundreds of thousands of people of other faiths have been killed or enslaved by the Muslim conquerers, especially with those who refused to convert to Islam (which like the Crusades, were the whole point of the Muslim conquerers). If you would like me to cite examples, please let me know.
5)If you would like to say that in the face of the Christian Crusaders, the Muslim conquerers looked like Martha Stuart, fine, but the moral relatavist comparison bears no weight. They were both brutal peoples. In fact, the Muslims who the ones who introduce the black African slave trade to the world. Yeah, they were a bunch of Mary Poppins.
6)Again, yes, it may be true that life under the Muslims were a bit better than under the Christians for the Jews, during the Middle Ages, but life under Muslim rule was no picnic for the Jews. They were persecuted and forced to pay dhimmi taxes. They were second class citizens and subject to random pogroms and the such. So, that comparison does not really hold that much weight.
7) What does the holocaust not being carried out by the Muslims have to do with anything? There were actually many Arab/Muslim countries that fully supported Adolf and his plots to take over the free world. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had plans to insitute his very own Auschwitz in Palestine in order to take care of his own Jewish Question. He also consulted with Hitler on plans to carry out the Final Solution on the Jews of the Middle East.
8)Again, you try to make moral relatist comparisons between wars being faught against terrorism and tyranny and a bunch of terrorists who are killing innocent men, women, and children. Please provide these "western sources" of the number of people killed. Do these "sources" distinguish between combatants and innocent civilians? Do they also differentiate between citizens killed by terrorists and/or insurgents and those accidently killed by soldiers? How does less people killed by Muslims terrorists mean that they're OK? Thank the good Lord that more people aren't killed by these maniacs! And, the black Christians in Darfur, Sudan are fighting against ethnic cleansing being committed against them by the MUSLIMS!! Why in the hell would you bring that up as an example?!?
So, basically, you're trying to say that terrorism is OK because it has allegedly garnered independence for some countries? And, it's OK to use Islam as an excuse to kill innocent people because it's killed less people than other religions? I'm sorry, but as AM said, your logic is wanting. Your morality is wanting. You moral relativist comparisons are seriously lacking and have no merit.
-OC
#8(I wish there were more Muslims contributing to this discourse.)
Juned, you have highlighted the Christian Crusades and their excesses in the name of their faith.
I am tired of red herrings, half-truths, and finger-pointing for the purpose of evasion. However, as my Muslim roommate has pointed out to me, the schoolbooks in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan do not contain the many FACTS that I offer. It became increasingly difficult for my roommate to retaliate. So through study of primary documents, contemporary news items/editorials, military dispatches, and first person accounts, my roommate has come to realize that much of Islamic history has been ‘sanitized’. (Much like the current Japanese version of WWII. At least Germany and Austria have owned up to their responsibility and have endeavored to present Nazism and the Holocaust in a truthful manner in order to make every effort that such an event will not be repeated.)
Upon reflection, I could only wonder how the Crusades could come about; what sparked this reaction from Christians who are supposed to love their enemies and be committed to peace?
I shall list the various reasons in my next comment (it is too long for this page) and you can do some further research on it and give me your opinion.
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You have mentioned that during the 20th century there were atrocities which were instigated and carried out by those of Christian backgrounds, specifically citing Adolph Hitler. Again, this is a poor example! Hitler did not act as a result of religious teachings and never used scripture either from the old or new testament to justify his actions; in fact, he despised all ‘people of the book’ and separated himself from the Church and was thusly separated through his sinful and evil actions. In fact, he turned to the occult devising new ‘religious’ rites, martyrs, saints, and symbols for the Third Reich (i.e. Horst Wessel, ‘Blood Flag’, and Aryan Culture). This was perversion in the same vein as witchcraft and satanism.
Hitler manipulated good people into believing that most human beings were unworthy to exist. He provided scapegoats for economic mishaps and incited people to became monstrous to their neighbors. He destroyed houses of worship and terrorized the clergy. He murdered intellectuals and burned books. He instituted a network of informants and if one did not believe in his principals and vision, one was tortured and/or executed by his henchmen. Individual freedom no longer was allowed to exist. Truth was not allowed to exist.
You see, Hitler could not quote Christian scripture to justify his actions because no scripture exists that Jesus condoned murder, execution, or war. Jesus never held a weapon, led an army, killed a person, or converted anyone by duress.
I cannot say that for the prophet you follow – and neither can you.
Perhaps you also do not know of one of Hitler’s most famous quotes concerning genocide: "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
The Armenian Genocide served as a blueprint for Hitler's "Final Solution." It is reported that when Hitler was asked if he thought he could "get away" with killing the Jews. Hitler is said to have responded, "nobody said anything when Ataturk killed the Armenians."
As too many Americans don't know, from 1915-1923 the Ottoman government had over one and a half million Armenians massacred and more than 500,000 survivors forcibly expelled from their historic homeland.
The Germans and Turks had been allies.
The Turks, who were responsible for this almost forgotten holocaust, were Muslims.
There were other incidents akin to the Russian pogroms late in the 19th century committed by Muslims.
#91. 613 Persians capture Damascus and Antioch
2. 614 Persians sack Jerusalem
3. 633 Muslims conquer Syria and Iraq
4. 635 Muslims begin the conquest of Persia and Syria
5. 635 Arab Muslims capture the city of Damascus
6. 636-637 Arab domination of Syria
7. 637 Arabs occupy Ctesiphon
8. 637 Jerusalem falls to Muslim forces
9. 638 Caliph Umar I enters Jerusalem
10. 639 Muslims conquer Egypt and Persia
11. 641 Islam spreads into Egypt
12. 641 Muslims conquer Alexandria
13. 649 Muawiya I leads raid against Cyprus sacking the capital Salamis-Constantia
14. 652 Sicily is attacked by Muslims
15. 653 Muawiya I leads raid against Rhodes
16. 654 Muawiya I conquers Cyprus
17. 655 Battle of the Masts
18. 661-680 Mu’awiya moves capital from Mecca to Damascus
19. 662 Egypt falls to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates
20. 667 Sicily is attacked by Muslims
21. 668 First siege of Constantinople
22. 669 Muslim conquest reaches Morocco
23. 672 Muslims capture the island of Rhodes
24. 674 Arab conquest reaches Indus River
25. 698 Muslims capture Carthage
26. 700 Muslims raid Island of Sicily
27. 711 Muslims conquest of Sindh in Afghanistan
28. 711 Battle of Guadalate
29. 712 Conquest of Andulusia
30. 715 Muslim conquest of Spain
31. 716 Muslims captured Lisbon
32. 717 Cordova becomes capital of Andalusia (Spain)
33. 719 Muslims attack Septimania in Southern France
34. 721 Muslims cross the Pyrenees
35. 722 Battle of Covadonga First defeat of Muslims by Christians
36. 724 Muslims raid southern France and capture Carcassone and Nimes
37. 725 Muslim forces occupy Nimes, France
38. 730 Muslim forces occupy Narbonne and Avignon
39. 732 Battle of Tours (Christian Victory)
40. 735 Muslim invaders capture Arles
41. 750 Abbasids move capital to Baghdad
42. 756 The Emirate of Cordova is established
43. 759 Pippin III ends Muslim incursions in France
44. 792 Hisham I calls for a Jihad Thousands heed his call to cross the Pyrenees to subjugate France. Many cities are destroyed
45. 813 Muslims attack the Civi Vecchia near Rome
46. 816 The Moors support the Basques against the Franks
47. 827 Sicily is invaded by Muslims
48. 831 Muslims capture Palermo and make it their capital
49. 838 Muslim raiders sack Marseille
50. 841 Muslim forces capture Bari (in Italy)
51. 846 Muslim raiders attack areas near Ostia and Rome. Some enter Rome and damage the Churches of St. Peter and St. Paul. The Leonine Wall is built to discourage further Attacks.
52. 849 Battle of Ostia (Christian Victory)
53. 850 Perfectus, a Christian priest in Muslim Cordova is executed – one of the first of Many
54. 85111 young Christians are executed for insulting the Prophet Muhammed
55. 858 Muslim raiders attack Constantinople
56. 859 Muslim invaders capture Castrogiovanni slaughtering several thousand
57. 869 Arabs capture the island of Malta
58. 870 Muslim invaders capture Syracuse
59. 876 Muslims pillage Campagna in Italy
60. 879 The Seljuk Empire unites Mesapotamia and a large portion of Persia
61. 884 Muslims invading Italy burn the monastery of Monte Cassino to the ground
62. 900 The Fatimid Dynasty assumes control of Egypt
63. 902 The Muslim conquest of Sicily is completed when the Christian city of Toorminia is captured
64. 909 Sicily comes under control of the Fatimids
65. 909 The fatimid Dynasty assumes control of Egypt
66. 909 Muslims control all the passes in the Alps between France and Italy – cutting off passage between the two countries
67. 920 Muslim forces cross the Pyrenees, enter Gascony and reach as far as the gates of Toulouse
68. 972 The Fatimids of Egypt conquer North Africa
69. 981 Ramiro III, king of Leon, is defeated at Rueda
70. 985 Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona
71. 994 The monastery of Monte Cassino is destrpyed a second time by Arabs
72. 997 Under the leadership of Almanzar, Muslim forces march out of the city of Cordova and head north to capture Christian lands.
73. 997 Muslim forces burn Compostela to the ground
74. 1004 Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa
75. 1009 The Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is destroyed by Muslim armies
76. 1009 Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah orders the the Holy Sepulcher and all Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed
77. 1012 Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah orders the destruction of all Christian and Jewish houses of worship in his lands
78. 1012 Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed
79. 1015 Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia
80. 1064 The Seljuk Turks conquer Christian Armenia
81. 1070 Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem and begin persecuting Christian Pilgrims
82. 1071-1085 Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine
83. 1071 Battle of Manzikert
84. 1073 Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara
85. 1078 Seljuk Turks capture Nicaea
86. 1084 Seljuk Turks conquer Antioch
67. 1086 Battle of Zallaca
68. 1088 Patzinak Turks begin forming settlements between the Danube and the Balkans
69. 1090 Granada captured by Yusuf Ibn Tashfin
70. 1091 Cordova is captured by the Almoravids
#10Wow, AM, very thorough. I knew I liked you. Hey, I was wondering if you could list some of the books and sources you used to study the real history of Islam. I've been collecting a few books on the subject but am a bit confused on what's really reputable. You seem to be very knowledgeable in the subject. Any titles and sources would be very much appreciated. Hope to hear from you soon.
-OC
#11Dear OC,
Thank you for your 'props'.
My answer may surprise you:
The Qur'an is the best primary source for any discussion of Islam.
(Don't read about the Qur'an, actually read the Qur'an.)
The Bible - both old and new testaments is also a requirement.
(The Islamic view of the Gospels as detailed in the Qur'an is particularly interesting.)
A background of history, theology, sociology, politics, and geography helps.
In addition to various books on theology, I own dispassionate reference books on military history listing battles including causes and effects.
There are several web sites dedicated to military history without any bias - just the facts. (I gleaned my list from some of these after cross-checking the various battles with my military reference books.)
Timelines of history (both ancient and modern) are also very useful to give perspective.
On-line news sources like Al-Jeezera and various Islamic/Middle Eastern blogs should be added to your day to give you an idea of current events and popular opinion.
Cross reference all of these sources, and come to your own conclusions.
AM
#12Fantastic info, A.M.
#13A.M., I just quoted the whole list in a new post.
#14Dear Vik,
Look, I'm not here to bash Muslims or Islam. My roommate is a faithful Muslim and many of my neighbors are as well. If the world could only live as peacefully together as in this building... (I am not a mean-spirited person, just one who prizes truth and historical accuracy, warts and all.)
I also hope we can move off this topic and tackle other topics that face this nation and the world. So this will be my last word on this thread.
Let's point out that we all have to be aware of history; its causes and effects, triumphs, defeats, and errors.
The list of conquests and battles was a bit limited by space and could not reflect other events at the time.
However, to constantly harangue at the Christians for the Crusades and make no mention of the preceeding Muslim conquest which puts it in proper historical context is an egregious sin of omission.
During Mohammad's lifetime (570-632) he became a warlord The Qur'an is rife with murders and conquests. It seems to be an eternal jihad.
But the Christians weren't all saintly either as they were battling one another in Europe, as were Muslims and Asians in their respective areas. It was an awful time because so many different ideas of religion, philosophy, nationalism, government, and leadership had been emerging and clashing.
Christian Crusaders had also become indescriminate where Jew and Muslim were concerned.
(It is interesting to note that the Jews were actually 'set up' for slaughter as a result of a 'rumor'. Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amur, who was founder of the Druze sect ordered the Holy Sepulcher and all Chriatian buildings in Jerusalem destroyed. The Holy Selpucher was constructed (355 CE) on the site of a Roman Temple, possibly the Temple of Aphrodite built by Hadrian, on the excavated hill of the Crucifixion. In addition, Constantine's mother, Helena, allegedly discovered the True Cross here. This is Christianity's most sacred place. This destruction would be akin to invading Mecca and destroying the Black Stone.)
The rumor that developed in Europe was that a 'Prince of Babylon' had ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulcher at the instigation of the Jews. As a result, Jewish communities in cities like Mainz, Orleans, and Rouen were attacked. This rumor became the basis for the massactre of Jews and their communities by Crusaders marching to the Holy Land. (Nobody is sure who started this rumor and if there was an 'agenda', but it might be similar to the burning of the Reichstag and putting the blame to the Jews and Communists when it was more likely the work of the Nazi's themselves to incite the population.)
But let me further comment that through my research on this topic I did reach a startling conclusion from a Christian perspective:
Mohammad started as a peaceful preacher but had a revelation that allowed him to fight. Sura 22:39-41, and Sura 2:193]
Mohammad subsequently had many people murdered by personal request, by personal command, and by implication. He had many people killed, some in horrible ways, especially while they slept. There were no trials, no judgments, no dialog. If one insulted Mohammad, if one doubted his credibility, or if one spoke out, one was murdered. Men and women, young and old, Jew and gentile; all were killed for not accepting or defying Mohammad.
The seeds of terrorism and intolerance are thus planted deep within the theology and psyche of Islam.
I think we're at an impasse.
Severe punishment? How about, execution!
Consider the plight of Abdul Rahman, an Afghan who converted to Christianity.
Sharia law, on which the Afghan constitution is partly based, rules that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be put to death unless he reverts to Islam. Sharia law overides adherence to the United Nations' Human Rights clause contained in the Afghan constitution.
While Western leaders, including the Pope, have called upon President Karsai to intervene, Afghan mullahs and frenzied citizenry are calling for death by hanging and other monsterous methods.
If Karzai follows his conscience, he might lose his country's support (and ours). this puts him in a precarious and vulnerable position.
And Not one peep from the Hollywood commmunity or other activists in support of Mr. Rahman. Where are the protests?
In our culture, If one is Jewish and converts, an observant family might sit shivah; if a Christian converts, they pray for the soul of the person. I have never heard of any death threats by a Jew or Christian if one rejected his family's faith. (And I speak as a Jew who converted to Christianity.)
I have been told repeatedly by my roommate that Islam is a faith of peace and tolerance and Muslims respect all 'people of the book'; that it is culture not the Koran that brings about all these atrocities.
What hypocrisy! It is patently clear to me that Islam fosters fear, intolerance, and terror.
A.M. Whittaker