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This is one of the things that makes a blogger wonder how much he may be contributing to the public debate. I believe I may have been among the first to discuss how Sharia culture is a perfect cancer on Judeo-Christian culture. Our beautiful Judeo-Christian culture teaches us to care about each other's feelings. Sharia culture teaches people to attack each other's feelings -- even their own -- with many Islamofascists purposely sending their own children to their deaths by suicide attack. Sharia culture teaches people to be offended by anyone who isn't also a supporter of fundamentalist Islam.
This makes Sharia culture a perfect cancer on Judeo-Christian culture. We are taught to care about their feelings; they are taught to take offense at everything in the Judeo-Christian culture. Unassimilated Islamists here claim offense, for example, at our right to free speech, and our caring people even consider sacrificing free speech so as not to offend.
So I was glad to see in today's paper, a Brewster Rockit cartoon, which makes a similar point. Click here to see the specific cartoon I'm referring to. Evidently, word is getting around. I wonder if I may have made some contribution in that regard.
However, the word is only starting to get out. A recent column by Jonah Goldberg appears to indicate the same trustingness with regard to unassimilated Islam, which has put the culture of Europe in danger of being overtaken and destroyed:
America is fortunate that our Muslim population is vastly more moderate than, say, France's or Denmark's. We're debating how to accommodate girls' basketball teams. Europeans are debating their civilization as some Muslims try to overturn the foundations of secularism and call for the beheading of those who stand in their way.
This doesn't mean we're not in for some screaming matches - or worse - as we deal with Muslim Americans as the new frontline minority, or with the dilemmas of Muslim immigration. But those are subjects for a million future columns.
Goldberg blithely assumes that 'the dilemmas of Muslim immigration' will be 'dealt with' via 'debates' and 'screaming matches' which will provide fuel for 'future columns.' He is reassuringly unconcerned that what will really happen will be hundreds of cars being burned nightly as in France, embassies being burned as in the cartoon riots, etc. etc. His naivete on this subject, if widely adopted here, would lead to the grave danger Europe is currently in.
As I documented in this recent post, there are many unassimilated Islamists in this country. These Islamists are already seeking to destroy U.S. free speech. Goldberg's 'million future columns' will not come into existence if they were to achieve their goals.
The Judeo-Christian culture is going to have to adapt to counter this threat. We're going to have to learn to say, unassimilated Islamists are seeking to destroy our laws and our culture; and either they have to assimilate and give up those pursuits, or we'll have to expel them.
#2I agree with Jesus.
#3You're providing more evidence for the post. Unassimilated Islamists want to take away our rights of free speech and freedom of religion, and you're citing Judeo-Christian tradition, and saying, "turn the other cheek." It's exactly what the post talks about.
#4Are you arguing that being oblivious to the beam in your eye is part of our beautiful Judeo-Christian tradition?
Are you going to take credit for inspiring this Brewster Rockit cartoon too?
#5> Are you arguing that being oblivious to the beam in your eye is part of our beautiful Judeo-Christian tradition?
I am not arguing that.
Are you going to respond to the argument I did make?
Vik, the traditions that have made us what we are are those of the Enlightenment.
#7J.son (I see you're using Bellman's domain name in your email address -- is this Bellman under a new name?), what point are you trying to make?
Yes, I used to post as "The Bellman" on the "The Bellman" group blog. That got confusing, so now I'm just Jason.
As to my point, it is that the traditions you wish to defend are largely of the Enlightenment, which itself was a reaction against the Judeo-Christian order of its time. You mention freedom of speech, for example, and that isn't exactly from Moses.
#9So, it sounds like you may agree that unassimilated Islam is a cancer on our culture, due to our Judeo-Christian traditions of caring about how other people feel, and you just want to add that our culture also is based on the U.S. constitution, which Islamofascism is also determined to destroy.
#10Muslims try to overturn the foundations of secularism and call for the beheading of those who stand in their way.
hi all i"m amr from egypt every group of people has it"s own believes ...u can see in one group the smart ,the stupid,theif,religious,..etc
i"m moslim our book quraan is the base of our way in life
an the teachs of the messenger mohamed
it dosn't has a destructive thoughts..we believe in jesus
the point of different betwween us we consider him a messenger not a god ...the god is one we can't see or know or describ allah is not a creature there is no measures 4 allah..
our quraan says we just fight people want to kick us out of our homes or want to kill us.
in our quraan the christian is a religion from god had sent before islam and we respect it .
in our religion even when we r in a war we musn't kill children or women or old men. try to read about the islam
not acts of bad moslims
#11amr, I'm glad to hear what you are saying. What do you think of the many Muslims who riot, burn buildings, kill women and children, behead journalists, blow up gatherings of people, etc., in the name of Islam?
#12Am Daud .we need to always say the truth,being muslims and christian.what will u do if someone wants to occupy ur land,kill u even take ur wealth? am sure u will retaliate. no matter how weak u r.that`s what`s really happening in most of muslim countries.eg PALESTINE & IRAQ.THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF ISLAM BUT A MATTER OF FREEDOM.they r fighting for their freedom.leave their land and see what will follow.Yes u have ur own freedom of speech but remember ur freedom doesnt permit u to insult others.Remember u want ur belief to be respected u have to respect other`s belief.thanks
#13Daud, I'm very interested in discussing your views with you.
Let's start with Iraq.
If, as you say, the terrorists in Iraq want freedom -- then why are they killing their fellow Iraqis by the tens of thousands?
#14U r welcome Sir.OK u said they killed themselves.do u know ur contribution to that?were they killing themselves b4 US invasion on their land? if they were doing that, was it of this rate? this implies many effort u did to create this problem among them.do u like what u r doing on their land to be done on urs?let say Saddam killed many of them during his regim.that is work of any bad leader all over the world.Saddam may be muslim but his act doesn`t substantiate Islam.u must know that muslim behavior doesnt represent Islam as what happens in the west like perversion and co, dont represent Islam. ISLAM STRICKLY FORBIDS KILLING INNOSCENT PEOPLE LET ALONE A MUSLIM.HOW CAN A MUSLIM KILL MUSLIM IN ISLAM NAME??? thanks
#15I MEANT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE WEST LIKE PERVESION AND CO DO NOT REPRESENT CHRISTIANITY*
#16Daud, I did not say "they killed themselves." What I said is, they are killing their fellow Iraqis. If you click this link, you will see that the people fighting the U.S. in Iraq, have killed tens of thousands of their fellow Iraqis. This shows that they are not fighting the U.S. for the freedom of Iraq.
#17What I also meant is that they didn`t mean to kill their fellow Iraqis but they want to eliminate those who took their freedom, who stole their land and petroleum.So what causes all this is presence of US troop on their land.I am sure if their is no foreign force on their land they will definitely find solution to their internal problem. WHAT CONCERNS ME MOST IS TO CLARIFY TO U THAT ISLAM IS FREE FROM ALL TERRORISM ACTION....
#18I appreciate the chance to speak to you about this, Daud.
What I also meant is that they didn`t mean to kill their fellow Iraqis...
Unfortunately, it could not be clearer that they did mean to kill their fellow Iraqis:
At the Baghdad morgue, the vast majority of bodies processed had been shot execution-style. Many showed signs of torture - drill holes, burns, missing eyes and limbs, officials said. Others had been strangled, beheaded, stabbed or beaten to death.
I'm very glad to hear that you believe that Islam is free of terrorism. Now, as you know, all the Islamic terrorists say that they do kill people in the name of Islam. Do you agree that anyone who kills a civilian in the name of Islam, should be told that they are lost to their religion, and are no longer part of Islam?
#19I am also happy to inform u that Islam is very free of terrorism.I must tell u these points.
1:Islam allows muslim to fight against any one who wants to take their freedom or occupy their land.
2;It goes against killing innoscent people, let alone a muslim .So,how do u think that killing innoscent civlians can be ascribed to ISLAM?
3;so no boDy can kill innoScent people in tHE name of Islam ,because it`s against that.
4;lastly i still believe that the major cause of all these is the presence of forEIgn fpRCE ON THEIR land.
thanks.
#20You're raising some very interesting questions. Do you agree that the Islamic terrorists in Iraq, who have killed tens of thousands of their fellow Iraqis, should be told that they are lost to their religion, and are no longer part of Islam?
#21ok, I simply believe that those who mistakingly kill other iraqis, they do not THAT in the name of Islam but in the name of their freedom.
But who kills innoscent people is surely laying his hand on a forbidden act in Islam.if such person calls himself muslim he a sinner cuz he does what Islam forbids.
What i have to say is that killing innoscent people is not ascribed to Islam...
#22That's good to hear, Daud. Would you also agree that the people who carried out the killings of innocent people when they destroyed the World Trade Center on 9-11, were also doing what Islam forbids?
#23I can simply tell u that Who ever deliberately violates Islamic rules and regulations he is definitely not a muslim.But concerning September 11th US attack.do u have any evidence or proof which shows that it`s done by Muslims? Then we will apply Islamic law which forbids innocent people on them.
#24hello mr vik am stil looking forward to read from u.
#25Hi Daud,
Osama bin Ladin admitted that he was responsible for 9-11, and says he did it in the name of Islam.
...In a previously undisclosed video which has been circulating for 14 days among his supporters, he confesses that "history should be a witness that we are terrorists. Yes, we kill their innocents".
In the footage, shot in the Afghan mountains at the end of October, a smiling bin Laden goes on to say that the World Trade Centre's twin towers were a "legitimate target" and the pilots who hijacked the planes were "blessed by Allah".
#26Hi vik,
plz tell me that , do you have to say any thing about the following link???
"the 15-year old Iraqi girl was raped and killed along with her parents and 5-year old sister".
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=11651
#27hi vik can u explain this http://www.arabox.net/message.php?scope=e50935&id=58575
[Warning -- graphic photos. -- ed.]
#28Daud, that story and/or its photos, could be faked.
Let me ask you this. If you are concerned about civilians, where is your outrage against Hezbollah for hiding behind human shields?
And where is your outrage against Hezbollah's purposely rocketing civilian targets in Israel? Do you take the view that it's okay for Hezbollah to kill civilians, but not for Israel?
#29vik,
first of all, i want to say is , that i am zumer, not daud. and the second thing is that u did not replied my message, or is it that u r afraid to reply.........
#30Zoomer and Daud those stories are total ########. You actually think the Islamists who don't think twice about forcing their own children to be suicide bombers are commited to telling the truth? Give me a break!
#31Zumer, I would make the same reply to you that I made to daud. The story may be faked. If you are concerned about civilians, where is your outrage against jihadists for purposely killing as many civilians as they can? Do you take the view that it’s okay for jihadists to kill civilians, but not for Israel?
#32A favorite complaint of Vik's is that Muslims aren't strong enough in their condemnation of violence by other Muslims.
Now, given the opportunity to condemn the widely reported story about the rape and murder of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl, not only does he refuse to condemn it, he tries to insist it didn't even happen.
[insult deleted]
#33Ruth, I said, the story may be faked. If you want to debate that, find some additional validation that it happened.
Now, Ruth, you can answer the same question. If you are concerned about civilians, where is your outrage against jihadists for purposely killing as many civilians as they can? Do you take the view that it’s okay for jihadists to kill civilians, but not for Israel?
#34Ruth, I said, the story may be faked. If you want to debate that, find some additional validation that it happened.
But it's all a hoax, right?
Now, Ruth, you can answer the same question. If you are concerned about civilians, where is your outrage against jihadists for purposely killing as many civilians as they can?
I am outraged over anyone purposely killing as many civilians as they can. To the best of my knowledge, the only person in this discussion who has called for the killing of civilians is you.
#35I am outraged over anyone purposely killing as many civilians as they can.
And yet the only people you criticize are America and Israel. This response of yours appears to be just lip service. It's not backed up by your actions.
#36And yet the only people you criticize are America and Israel. This response of yours appears to be just lip service. It’s not backed up by your actions.
[Insults deleted]
#37Ruth, be advised that it's the stated policy of this forum that comments that are trolls may be deleted, and your unremitting hostility and insults are textbook definitions of trolls.
#38[Troll deleted]
#39I would suggest that we all go to the library and borrow the following books: The Koran-Including the Hadiths and Surrahs, The Bible, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, and The Sword of the Prophet. Read the last two books FIRST, using the Koran and Bible as points of Theological reference. I believe this will FACTUALLY explain all the ethical differences between the two factions. This debate has been going on since the time of President John Quincy Adams in the USA. . .and it isn't going to go away anytime in the foreseeable future. The important thing is to know the FACTS about what the Koran Teaches and what the Bible teaches. JQ Adams had some very harsh words for the sons of Hagar, and that was 200 years ago. Know your history, learn from it and apply it. One final comment. . .If you look up "Cult Checklit" in Google seach and peruse it, it may dawn on you that Islam may be more of a "moon-god cult" than a "religion". Why do they use a crescent on the Minnerets and national flags? Hit the books my friends and let me know your conclusions!! Best wishes!
#40Oaths of Loyalty
It has come to my attention through an Australian friend that Australia's Prime Minister Howard and his government have a, 'love it or leave' it attitude vis a vis immigrants. It was suggested that Muslims were invited to stay if they could integrate into Australian society, and if not, they could leave. I looked this up in Snopes Australia has a Pledge of Commitment for all naturalized citizens:
Pledge of Commitment to Australia:
From this time forward, under God,
I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect, and
whose laws I will uphold and obey.
All new citizens have the choice of making the pledge with or without the words 'under God'.
Good on you, Oz!
Here is an article concerning Canada
Additionally, the European Union is proposing an oath of allegiance for immigrants to uphold the laws of the EU and fundamental rights albeit negating the oath to Queen and Country in the United Kingdom and Great Britain which is quite controvertial. (Incidently, according to the article, check out the number of illegal immigrants asked to leave and how many actually left!) Despite some of the objections, it demonstrates that the Europeans are concerned with illegal and counter-cultural immigrants.
And in the United States? We require an Oath of Allegiance from naturalized citizens, however Pennsylvania has dropped their oath of loyalty for candidates and state employees.
But according to Richard Winger, "Nobody really pays any attention to them (loyalty oaths),
Pitiful.
#41Look, I agree with what you guys are saying here for the most part, but I just want to say that we can't let ourselves view all Muslims negatively. We all know that it is only a few Muslims who are "out to get us and our way of life". And this is a very real thing. But all cultures have their "freaks", and we can't let them alter how we view the rest of the people in an entire culture. Hitler was a Christian, right?
I just wanted to throw that out there
#42Mohammad commisioned his followers to subjugate all the world to Islam - especially by the sword. Devout/observant Muslims are therefore called to Jihad against all infidels.
No such commission for world domination by force exists in Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, or Buddhism.
It is only those Muslims who are not devout that pose no threat.
Hitler was NOT a Christian. He rejected all civilized religious beliefs and morals by supplanting them with National Socialist 'rites' to further his personal agenda; these 'rites' included elements of astrology, Nordic mythology, and propaganda.
I would suggest that you start reading the Koran and brush up with a bit of NAZI history.
#43Well said, as always, A.M.
#44Whatever, you guys are just going to tag team me regarding facts, and ignore my ideas. Just reread Daud's messages. He is a source of information which we like to call a person.
Remember that people are people. Every Muslim doesnt have a big scary idea of world domination.
#45Al, The keywod here is, unassimilated.
#46Ok, ok, I realize that, but I was mostly directing that towards Vik, because I just get this feeling that he to expands his negative views to reach all Muslims as a group.
Vik, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's just a little frustrating when you seem to not accept Muslims because you apply our, and your, standards to what they do, and when you apply your idea of some of them to all of them. They are very different people, with a very different culture, but let's see if we can apply that "Judeo-Christian tradition of wanting to love each other" to everyone, and not just those who are familiar to us.
I do agree with many of your points here-- you're a smart guy and the things you say are valid. But I'd like to add one word to the title of this page; Unassimilated Islam is SOMETIMES a cancer on the west.
#47Hi Al,
Thanks for the good words.
Unassimilated Islam is SOMETIMES a cancer on the west.
No, honestly, I think you've got it wrong. Historically people have come to America from all sorts of different cultures and assimilated and become successful. We must insist that Muslims who have come here do the same.
Muslims have used the policy of non-assimilation in other nations to grow a culture within the host nation that is hostile to that nation, ultimately destroying the culture of the host nation. It's a very successful strategy and is directly analogous to cancer. Just look at France, Italy, or England today. You know what language they used to speak in Egypt? (This is a bit of a trick question, but the answer is illuminating.)
Have you looked at the Koran? A tremendous amount of it is unequivocally about killing and subjugating those of other religions. Not a line or two, as in the Bible, but line after line after line, passage after passage. And the life of Mohammed was one of killing and warfare.
Only Islam makes it an article of faith that those of other religions are offensive simply by believing in their religion. Islam says that Christianity is offensive because it says Christ is the son of God, and says that Judaism is offensive because it does not recognize that Christ is a prophet.
If you raise little children to believe in this stuff you often get adults who try to carry it out in their lives. It is extremely dangerous.
...I was mostly directing that towards Vik, because I just get this feeling that he to expands his negative views to reach all Muslims as a group.
Well, that's not exactly right. I welcome the Muslims who are here to repudiate terrorists, to assimilate, and to become successful, like everybody else.
Per Wafa Sultan:
...You would be surprised if you knew how many people in Syria believe what I believe. Using fake names, and behind the scenes, they are supporting me. Because you are risking your life and the life of your family. Everyone is looking to the free world to get them out of their prison.
When Muslims say, there are 1.3 billion of them, it makes it sound like they are the whole world. But the rest of the world is 5 billion. Muslims are a minority and they have to act like it. Those Muslims have no choice of religion, they are forced to be Muslim. Give those 1.3 billion Muslims freedom of religion, and then see how many Muslims there are in the world!
It would be easy for Muslims in the U.S. to show that they should not be lumped in with terrorists who kill in the name of Islam. All they have to do is march, make speeches, and have rallies proclaiming loudly that anyone who blows up a restaurant, bus, plane, etc., in the name of Islam, is lost to Islam and is no longer a good Muslim. Easy. But, as we all know, this is something Muslims do not yet do. They explicitly do not yet separate themselves from those who do those things. It's up to them to separate themselves from those who do such things, and so far, they have not yet done so.
The result is that it is almost impossible not to believe that they do not tacitly support such things.
They can step forward any time and separate themselves from those who want to destroy the West. It's long been time for them to do so. What's stopping them?
Please check out my post on Wafa Sultan, and then let me know your thoughts.
#48I totally agree with what Sultan is saying, and it's pretty awesome that shes speaking like that for Arab news channels.
I do think that I personally would speak against Muslim acts of terrorism and violence if I was a Muslim who did not stand for it, just as you said they should do. But you and I aren't Muslims.
I truly believe that, as Americans, it is easy for us to judge the rest of the world and its people. And this is likely true for many people in other countries. But if we pride ourselves so strongly on being educated, thoughtful, advanced, and whatever else we would say, I don't understand why we can't also be understanding of the fact that most people in the world are radically different from us, and have been brought up and lived with raically different values, rules, culture, etc.
I think it is very possible that Muslims take their culture and religion much more seriously than most Christians and Jews do. And even if they aren't more dedicated to it, I still think that there is something that keeps them from speaking out against other Muslims.
It could be that they are taught that all Muslims are good and that they should never criticize each other, and it could be that they are afraid to go against any Muslim acts or thoughts. Or they could be unsure of whether or not violent and hateful acts carried out by other Muslims are truly what their religion asks for. It could also be some cultural issue that I could never learn of or understand. Whatever it is, they aren't speaking out against Muslim violence and acts of terror that are "in the name of Islam".
My point is that it is too easy to judge Muslims on this issue, and it is too easy to state what they SHOULD be doing about it without stepping into their shoes. This might sound stupid and naive to you. But all I can say is that they are very different people from us, and have all grown up with Islam as a large part of who they are.
It could be that they dont criticize their own religion and they especially don't express thoughts against it. They may feel that speaking out against people carrying out violence in the name of their religion is like denouncing Islam. And it is not acceptable in their culture to do so.
These are just some ideas. We just cant comprehend some of their thoughts about certain issues or why they differ from ours simply because we are not them.
#49I agree with you in saying that you feel Muslims should speak out against other Muslims' violent acts, but your ideas shouldnt be used to fuel an even larger nonacceptance of Muslims than what is already present in America.
I think it would be more useful for us to understand why it is happening (or not happening, that is) than it is to keep talking about our assumptions about Muslims based on our American standards.
#50Dear Al,
The spirit of charity is evident in your posts; that is a hallmark of the Judeo/Christian/Eastern ethic.
No other group, save the Communists with their Manifesto, wished to change nations and societies to reflect their values. All Christians, Jews, and adherents to Eastern philosophies actually thrive in our country.
With the many roommates I have hosted, only the Muslim was boasting to me about what the Qu'ran teaches, the wisdom of Sharia Law, and how Muslims are working to subjugate all the world to Islam. (Note to Christians: When Jesus comes back, he will be a Muslim!) She said the beauty of Islam is that it goes beyond national boundaries; Islam is a nation and political sovereignity is non-sensical to them. Islam is a nation that needs to spread around the world, breaking down political, judicial, and social boundaries in favor of their own.
I grew up with Muslims and there didn't seem to be a problem. I had no prejudice towards Muslims or Arabs. They were my friends and classmates in the same public schools in New York and their parents were shopkeepers, business owners, doctors, cpa's, educators and diplomats. They were from Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Indonesia, and Afghanistan.
My friends attended Islamic instruction after school in the same way the Jews received training in Hebrew and the Catholics learnt their catechism. I imagine my Chinese, Vietnamese, and Japanese friends also had their lessons in religion and culture. (There weren.t many Protestants in our neighborhood!)
But the recent wave of immigrants seems to be quite different - far more fundmental, radical, and unaccepting of the core values of the United States. They don't seem to want to get involved with any community except the Muslim one and they are critcal of the United States' culture and values.
We have gone to extremes to accomodate people of all faiths and backgrounds. We have laws in place to guarantee equal opportunity and redress of grievances so there is no excuse not to take one's place in the American community.
Why did they come here if they are opposed to what our country stands for? You need to ask that; I do whenever I enter my building.
People and governments at first did not take Communism seriously, and look how it devastated the world in the past century!
The Qu'ran is just as much a blueprint for world domination as the Communist Manifesto.
It is time to take radical Islam seriously; I take them at their 'word'.
So should you.
#51Al and A.M., I think we're having an excellent exchange here.
Al, in your post #48, you presented a number of possible explanations for why Muslims in the U.S. don't oppose Muslims who are blowing up buses, trains, planes, restaurants, etc. So we agree that most Muslims in the U.S. are not yet seen opposing such things.
I agree with you that it's important to understand as much as possible why most Muslims are tacitly supporting the people who want to kill us; at the same time, we must take action to keep radical Islamists from killing Westerners in the name of Islam. Muslims in the U.S. must be required to assimilate, and ultimately to actively oppose those who kill in the name of their religion.
We just cant comprehend some of their thoughts about certain issues or why they differ from ours simply because we are not them.
Comprehending them is a plus, but it is not required. What is required is to take all actions to keep Islamists from killing Westerners.
#52Comprehending them is a plus.
Absolutely. I do comprehend them and have rejected their beliefs and laws.
I judge a people/country by their laws and judicial system.
Sharia Law is unacceptable to the Western world; it is wholley astounding that Sharia justice is motivated by the basest of human emotions and actions while Western justice is motivated by the highest ideals and models.
Sharia Law is followed by most Muslims around the world despite other laws that are in place in the respective countries where they live. Sharia binds them as a nation without walls or boundaries. It covers all aspects of a Muslim's day and life from dawn to dusk. It is a vastly complicated and draconian system which includes even the most mundane activities.
Sharia is deeply ingrained in each Muslim and part of their overall spiritual makeup; it cannot be easily separated. It supercedes national laws. The Qu'ran is more valid to most Muslims in the US than the Constitution.
Please read the section called, #7 Sharia, democracy and human rights concerning compatibility with democracy and human rights.
This is something that I've come to comprehend: Islam is not compatible with the West. It's as simple as that. It is dangerous to make exceptions, distinctions, accomodations, justifications, or rationalizations.
All U.S. citizens, or those who wish to be citizens, need to adhere to and be subject to US laws and judicial system. How is this possible when most of Sharia contradicts US law?
And it just may be that many moderate or non-observant Muslims are afraid or unwilling to stand up against the Islamists because of this internal struggle between Sharia and secular law.
Again. before you make any more remarks concerning this, please read the Qu'ran and study some cases in Sharia Law.
#53The excellent comments and observations in this thread have just been extensively quoted in a new article.
#54Speaking of Muslims and "terrorism"...
One thing that struck me as odd in the days after 9/11 was Bush saying "We will not tolerate conspiracy theories [regarding 9/11]". Sure enough there have been some wacky conspiracy theories surrounding the events of that day. The most far-fetched and patently ridiculous one that I've ever heard goes like this: Nineteen hijackers who claimed to be devout Muslims but yet were so un-Muslim as to be getting drunk all the time, doing cocaine and frequenting strip clubs decided to hijack four airliners and fly them into buildings in the northeastern U.S., the area of the country that is the most thick with fighter bases. After leaving a Koran on a barstool at a strip bar after getting shitfaced drunk on the night before, then writing a suicide note/inspirational letter that sounded like it was written by someone with next to no knowledge of Islam, they went to bed and got up the next morning hung over and carried out their devious plan. Nevermind the fact that of the four "pilots" among them there was not a one that could handle a Cessna or a Piper Cub let alone fly a jumbo jet, and the one assigned the most difficult task of all, Hani Hanjour, was so laughably incompetent that he was the worst fake "pilot" of the bunch. Nevermind the fact that they received very rudimentary flight training at Pensacola Naval Air Station, making them more likely to have been C.I.A. assets than Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. So on to the airports. These "hijackers" somehow managed to board all four airliners with their tickets, yet not even ONE got his name on any of the flight manifests. So they hijack all four airliners and at this time passengers on United 93 start making a bunch of cell phone calls from 35,000 feet in the air to tell people what was going on. Nevermind the fact that cell phones wouldn't work very well above 4,000 feet, and wouldn't work at ALL above 8,000 feet. But the conspiracy theorists won't let that fact get in the way of a good fantasy. That is one of the little things you "aren't supposed to think about". Nevermind that one of the callers called his mom and said his first and last name, more like he was reading from a list than calling his own mom. Anyway, when these airliners each deviated from their flight plan and didn't respond to ground control, NORAD would any other time have followed standard operating procedure (and did NOT have to be told by F.A.A. that there were hijackings because they were watching the same events unfold on their own radar) which means fighter jets would be scrambled from the nearest base where they were available on standby within a few minutes, just like every other time when airliners stray off course. But of course on 9/11 this didn't happen, not even close. Somehow these "hijackers" must have used magical powers to cause NORAD to stand down, as ridiculous as this sounds because total inaction from the most high-tech and professional Air Force in the world would be necessary to carry out their tasks. So on the most important day in its history the Air Force was totally worthless. Then they had to make one of the airliners look like a smaller plane, because unknown to them the Naudet brothers had a videocamera to capture the only known footage of the North Tower crash, and this footage shows something that is not at all like a jumbo jet, but didn't have to bother with the South Tower jet disguising itself because that was the one we were "supposed to see". Anyway, as for the Pentagon they had to have Hani Hanjour fly his airliner like it was a fighter plane, making a high G-force corkscrew turn that no real airliner can do, in making its descent to strike the Pentagon. But these "hijackers" wanted to make sure Rumsfeld survived so they went out of their way to hit the farthest point in the building from where Rumsfeld and the top brass are located. And this worked out rather well for the military personnel in the Pentagon, since the side that was hit was the part that was under renovation at the time with few military personnel present compared to construction workers. Still more fortuitous for the Pentagon, the side that was hit had just before 9/11 been structurally reinforced to prevent a large fire there from spreading elsewhere in the building. Awful nice of them to pick that part to hit, huh?
#55Then the airliner vaporized itself into nothing but tiny unidentifiable pieces no bigger than a fist, unlike the crash of a real airliner when you will be able to see at least some identifiable parts, like crumpled wings, broken tail section etc. Why, Hani Hanjour the terrible pilot flew that airliner so good that even though he hit the Pentagon on the ground floor the engines didn't even drag the ground!! Imagine that!! Though the airliner vaporized itself on impact it only made a tiny 16 foot hole in the building. Amazing. Meanwhile, though the planes hitting the Twin Towers caused fires small enough for the firefighters to be heard on their radios saying "We just need 2 hoses and we can knock this fire down" attesting to the small size of it, somehow they must have used magical powers from beyond the grave to make this morph into a raging inferno capable of making the steel on all forty-seven main support columns (not to mention the over 100 smaller support columns) soften and buckle, then all fail at once. Hmmm. Then still more magic was used to make the building totally defy physics as well as common sense in having the uppermost floors pass through the remainder of the building as quickly, meaning as effortlessly, as falling through air, a feat that without magic could only be done with explosives. Then exactly 30 minutes later the North Tower collapses in precisely the same freefall physics-defying manner. Incredible. Not to mention the fact that both collapsed at a uniform rate too, not slowing down, which also defies physics because as the uppermost floors crash into and through each successive floor beneath them they would shed more and more energy each time, thus slowing itself down. Common sense tells you this is not possible without either the hijackers' magical powers or explosives. To emphasize their telekinetic prowess, later in the day they made a third building, WTC # 7, collapse also at freefall rate though no plane or any major debris hit it. Amazing guys these magical hijackers. But we know it had to be "Muslim hijackers" the conspiracy theorist will tell you because (now don't laugh) one of their passports was "found" a couple days later near Ground Zero, miraculously "surviving" the fire that we were told incinerated planes, passengers and black boxes, and also "survived" the collapse of the building it was in. When common sense tells you if that were true then they should start making buildings and airliners out of heavy paper and plastic so as to be "indestructable" like that magic passport. The hijackers even used their magical powers to bring at least seven of their number back to life, to appear at american embassies outraged at being blamed for 9/11!! BBC reported on that and it is still online. Nevertheless, they also used magical powers to make the american government look like it was covering something up in the aftermath of this, what with the hasty removal of the steel debris and having it driven to ports in trucks with GPS locators on them, to be shipped overseas to China and India to be melted down. When common sense again tells you that this is paradoxical in that if the steel was so unimportant that they didn't bother saving some for analysis but so important as to require GPS locators on the trucks with one driver losing his job because he stopped to get lunch. Hmmmm. Yes, this whole story smacks of the utmost idiocy and fantastical far-fetched lying, but it is amazingly enough what some people believe. Even now, five years later, the provably false fairy tale of the "nineteen hijackers" is heard repeated again and again, and is accepted without question by so many Americans. Which is itself a testament to the innate psychological cowardice of the American sheeple, i mean people, and their abject willingness to believe something, ANYTHING, no matter how ridiculous in order to avoid facing a scary uncomfortable truth. Time to wake up America.
#56Enlightenment, one guy you'll never convince of that is Bin Laden, who as you know admitted to having done everything you say he didn't do.
Also relevant: Popular Mechanics: Debunking The 9/11 Myths.
#57Enlightenment,
I'd be interested to find out your findings concerning the Holocaust.
#58"it dosn’t has a destructive thoughts..we believe in jesus
the point of different betwween us we consider him a messenger not a god ...the god is one we can’t see or know or describ allah is not a creature there is no measures 4 allah..
our quraan says we just fight people want to kick us out of our homes or want to kill us."
Awhhh the old taqiyya. How endearing, innit?
Confessions of a Former Islamist: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/AhmedShalakamy50521.htm
And that scum is from Egypt too!
Why does Egypt keeps its muslim brothers from fleeing Israel?
http://english.people.com.cn/200607/17/eng20060717_283725.html
How come muslims refuse to welcome with open arms their brothers in faith? Isn't there enough room for them in Egypt, Arabia, Lebanon, Syria... Jordan? Hey, wasn't it Jordan part of the British Mandate of Palestine? That would mean that the Palestinian state exists nowadays and it's called The Kingdom of Jordan! There, tell your Palestinian brothers they can stop blowing people up.
How weak a god this Allah is, isn't it? Heavily relying on his subjects because he can't defend himself from the offending kafirs. YHWH can't either.
#59I took a look at my email list one day and saw how many "moderate" muslims I actually knew! I decided to tell them the truth.that I will never convert to islam, and that I know now that they must kill me, accroding to the koran.
Not ONE of them denied that he/she would kill me for having rejected islam, when "the time" comes. After all, we all get ONE chance to convert to islam, and I decided to cash mine in...the answer is NO. These people who I thought were friends were only using me for whatever advantage they could, whether that was babysitting, helping them with citizenship applications, business assistance, etc. etc. They ALL had some need for which I was a dhimmi...er, dummy.
From this one decision I took, I learned something money could not buy: that every single so-called "moderate" muslim, male or female, knows that he is a potential jihaddist, and none would deny this to me, no matter how hard I pressed them to say so. Every single muslim is called to jihad by the koran, and they ALL know this.
I now give the one finger salute as I pass the local mosque, and I understand well that Michigan is lost...we will see calls for sharia there. Recently I was driving along with a friend in Dearborn, and she advised me heatedly NOT to look out the car window, as muslims in other cars would follow us and threaten us since we were not wearing hijabs!!!! Saginaw is ablaze as well.
THE TIME TO SPEAK UP IS NOW....we all need to sign a petition that we will or will NOT convert to Islam, and thus we bring these muslims out of their hiding places. If one of them throw his prayer rug down in front of me at an airport, I promise I will pat him on the shoulder as a good person would, comending him for his prayer....he must then get up and go ceremonially wash all over again, since a "PIG" or an "ape" infidel touched him. And I wil shake their hands as much as I can, showing them the real INFIDEL contact that is the hospitality of our country.....no amount of political correctness will save us.....and no one and no pressure is worth giving up my soul to these jihaddis.
#60Hey, comment number 55 calls themselves "enlightenment."
I REMEMBER OSAMA BRAGGING AND TAKING CREIT FOR THE 9-11 hijackings and destriction of the World Trade Centers, etc.
Your theories that muslims did not carry out 9-11 is a real doozy; didn't satan in the garden twist reality also?
#61The war on islamofascism must be fought militarily and won decisively. BUT THE TRUE VICTORY is won not only by the military, but in the ideological arena. We could win militarily, but the next generation coming up will again have to face this islamic threat until it is crushed ideologically. History proves this over and over.
My husband and I work tirelesly on the ideological war against islam.....and it's workers are tireless in their jihad against all other forms of thought.
I noticed recently that ALL of the online koran websites have deleted all refernces to things westerners would want to research..try typing into the online koran sites the word JIHAD, for example. It is one of the most common words in the koran, but the "search" yields not one sura or line about the subject. Three or four years ago, one could easily look into the koran on any subject, and the suras would appear. Try typing in the word KILL, or INFIDEL. Or, try PIG, or APE. The search always comes back, "No results found."
The Universities who host such websites most likley have no idea that only one slim (and palletable) version of the koran is being given on their sites. Those who wish to argue against islam, and those who wish to debate its claims, will need to resort to a hand-held koran.....(no need for gloves, unless you are at Guantanamo Bay.)
The window of time we presently enjoy for apologetics is closing fast. Those who wish to educate themselves better do so now, before even the semi-legitimate copies of the koran disappear from the bookshelves, and we have the brief and fully-watered-down versions.
My husband is a convert from islam to Christ, reads Arabic fluently, and he points out that even the best of the korans in English leave huge areas untranslated, visible on page after page.....whole blank areas appear instead of actual translations of the Arabic.
Every single mosque has what they call the "sword ceremony" EVERY SINGLE FRIDAY OF EVERY SINGLE YEAR where a sword is brought out and flashed around to whip the worshippers into a frenzy. All the muslims present know (and can never forget) that they are called to violent jihad.....
Your average, so-called moderate muslim knows that he/she, too must fight jihad one day or be killed, and do you really think he or she will throw their lot in with the pig and ape infidels? NO. They will fight the jihad, or be killed. Rwanda was a visual warning to all of us how such frenzies get out of hand......only an islamic one will be much bloodier.
IT IS PAST TIME TO WAKE UP NOW, and time to get those debates going NOW. There will come a day when no man can work any longer, and from my vantage point, it is just around the corner, from each and every one of us.
#62it must be made utterly clear that in so far as Islam is concerned, this violence is not a function of the Faith itself, as much as the media would have you believe. This is a misperception which has become rampant, but which should not be endowed with any validity, nor should it be accepted and given credibility. It is wrong and damaging. [Brown Univ. 1996]
-- Aga Khan IV
#63But Shahid, you know very well that Islamic leaders all over the world call on Muslims to commit violence, and you know that the vast majority of people who blow up planes, trains, busses, and restaurants, do it in the name of Islam.
#64When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! is thy lord able send down for us a table spread with food from Heaven? He said : Observe your duty to Allah, if ye are tru believer.
Quran
#65Shahid, way to not answer the question.
#66Shahid,
I would suggest you derive your quotes attributed to Jesus to the four Gospels in The Holy Bible , which is the proper, primary source, rather than the revisionist Quran.
Ah! but the Bible is not allowed in most Muslim countries.
#67The Talmud tells us that G-d obligated us not to rebel against the ruling bodies, and not to take the land of Israel by force (see Babylonian Talmud tractate Kesubos 111A).
can someone explain please.
#68It is OK to lie, steal, cheat, murder, and literally break any and all of the Ten Commandments of G-d (which they say they honor as coming from allah????) If one is muslim, and thinks he is "furthering islam," he has free license to do anything he likes, and since men are mini-gods, who decide whether or not their wives make it to Heaven, men have all the rights and NO responsibilities for their actions. Their whole ideology is idolatry. They are for anything and any law that promotes idolizing men (debasing women,) idolizing muhammad, idolizing their mosques (cannot shoot at one!!) They are experts at idolizing their sanctimonious ideology, idolizing imamas, who issue their fatwas, or their mullahs, or their caliphs, idolizing the koran (like it is God's Word, but they never read it)......They have SO many idols, including themselves, that God will judge them just on the First Commandment alone...He needs to go no further. They claim that allah is the arabic for G-d, but allah as revelaed in the koran is SATAN, not G-d.....since G-d never contradicts Himself....and He is Goodness, Beauty, Love and Truth,all four of which the koran lacks.
With an ideology that has such relativism at its core, there is no hope of discussing any subject rationally. Nor of hearing the actual truth out of them..Oh, to them that have eyes to see and ears to hear!!!
muslims love to come on various blogs and defend islam with their hyperboles, claiming that perversion, exists only in non-Muslim countries. WRONG.
Rape is rampant in muslim countries (they justify it, saying the woman was "adulterous," and women need four witnesses.) Theft and murder, idolatry, swearing, blasphemy, bearing false witness, are rampant in muslim countries, but these crimes are not reported, since islam does not allow "freedom" of the press...(it would be bad for the image of islam!!!) These crimes, however, are cited when a woman, or non-muslim is up for execution!!!!
They have their HUGE share of homosexuals, prostitution, etc etc. But they come here to the West (which they say they prefer!!!!) and pontificate like they have the moral highground. Oh, where is the vomit bag, please!!!!
PERVERSION BEGAN WITH MUHAMMAD, who went to hell once his Christian wife, Khadija died. His revelation and his actions were somehow "protected" by her mantle, as the Bible promises one's household will be saved if one of the family has faith.
But upon her death, muhammad "divinely sanctioned" such abhorrent institutions as polygamy, beheadings, blatant lies, horrific murders, justified stealings, war just for the sake of booty, violent jihads, and all sorts of other tactics proudly used by muslims today (check out the proudly displayed videos on the Internet for all the worold to learn.)
It is interesting that muhammad was the only prophet who broke every single Commandment, and called it a "religion."
It is in no way a religion, but an evil ideology formed by satan to justify killing every good person on the earth...NO LESS THAN THAT FINAL SOLUTION that was fomented upon the Jews has come full circle to every non-muslim.
We have yet to stand up and truly honor, value and welcome God's intervention in our affairs. God is letting us go this one ALONE, since we have pushed Him out of our daily lives.
It cannot stand as beneficial to mankind, as islam lacks the power of G-d. Their muslim prayers cannot produce or manufacture one little miracle...G-d only produces miracles when Jews and Christians pray.....proof the G-d of Israel, the G-d of Abraham, ISAAC AND JACOB, is G-D...NOT the anthropomorphic bloodthirsty allah. The muslims shall see their hatred of the G-d of Israel when it is finally too late for them to be saved.
I dare say, an eternally defining choice is at the doorstep of each and every person in this final battle between Good and evil. This I call the LAST DAYS...call it what you like.
#69Apparently Shahid Kinnare is a fake name, and he or she is lacking the courage (from the religion of islam) to write in a correct email address and name. //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') document.write("&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"); else document.write(unescape(l[i])); } //]]> is a fake email address......
Why do I find this to be a pattern all over the Internet? Keep off this blog since your satanic ideology allows you to lie to our faces.
#70I am really sorry about the email addresse. Please you can write me at //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') document.write("&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"); else document.write(unescape(l[i])); } //]]> .
#71Salmon Rushdie was forced into hiding by the religion of peace because he exposed the fact that Mohammed admitted to being possessed by Satan instead of God. (the Satanic Verses)
The question Rushdie then posed was, "What else did you tell your followers to do while inspired by the word of Satan?"
Jihad enables/commands all followers to break EVERY commandment for the glory of God. (or whomever was inspiring those words) Coincidence?
Also, to paraphrase a Chris Rock bit . . . when Isreali's are getting on a bus or sitting down at a cafe, they aren't worried about the MEDIA setting off a bomb.
#72First of I do not see Russian Muslim going to Isreal and blowing him up. It is only Palestine blowing themself up. So you cannot say muslim are blowing themself up Yes you can say palestine are blowing themself up.
This are few christain in history who have commited suicide Judas Iscariot (New Testment), Adolf Hilter, Ernest Hemingway. I can keep on going.
Mohammad was also christain before becoming Muslim and Jesus was Jew befor becoming Christain. Mohammad wife Khadijah become first mulsim after Muhommad, Second muslim in histroy is Ali Nephew of Muhommad.
When you talk about West world are talking about Christain Country Because their are some christain country in Africa and Asia.
Polygamy is also practise in USA ofcourse you have to go to only Christain state in USA UTAH.
In Islam Imam and Mullah who do not have any value. Just tell some muslim that you met Mullah Nassruddin and see him laughing. Imam and mullah do not have authority in islam like father and Pastor have in christainity. In islam six year old kid can become Imam and lead the prayer now that is called democary.
Even having ex-mulsim as your husband you need to learn much about islam as I only read your posting of what western Media (Christain Media) though you. There is saying that Answer to fool is quitness. And that the reason most of muslim do not come to side like this and answer I do not know why I am making fool of myself. I have not wrote any thing to hurt yours or any one else feelings.
#73The Arab nation never harmed the Jewish People until the advent of Zionist nationalism.
Rabbi Amram Blau
#74Dear Shahid,
Communicaton between people is essential to gain knowledge. Silence does nothing to educate or illuminate. Silence can be misinterpreted.
Permit me to illuminate you on a few points of Christian theology:
Jesus was never a Christian. He was born and he died, a Jew. Most of his followers were Jewish and those who accepted him as the Messiah (Christ) and followed his example were called Christians. At first these Christians considered themselves part of a Jewish sect until gentiles were permitted to follow the teachings of Jesus without having to convert to Judaism or observe Jewish traditions and law. This opened up the Word to all the world without having to abandon one's own nationality or traditions that were not in conflict with his teachings.
If Mohammad was indeed a Christian first, he could not have been a devout one. The Hadith attests that Mohammad rejects all the basic teachings of Jesus and became a warlord, polygamist, slaveholder, thief, and rapist. He forced conversions on pain of death, coerced people to murder others who disagreed or mocked him, and urged his followers to conquer lands and peoples (non-believers) by the sword.
This is not a man of peace and mercy. How can anyone follow such an individual?!!!
Jesus reduced the Ten Commandmants to the first two and added one of His own: Thou shalt love one another as I have loved you. (Meaning unconditionally.) He said that if we loved G-d and one another, then through His example and our self-discipline, we could go to the Father - although heaven is not guaranteed: it is through the Grace of G-d.
Jesus gave us one prayer (the Lord's Prayer, and as already stated, one commandment to add to the two in the Ten commandments.) This is all that is really required to be a Christian in addition to Baptism (for no one is born a Christian.)
Jesus' law is spiritual: Love G-d and one another and the rest will fall into place. We are to be self-disciplined and not obediant; we should turn to G-d through love, not force, for force only spawns hypocrites.
The Hadith and Sharia Law is a collection of draconian laws and regulations dictating every moment and aspect of life and activity from morning rise to sleeping; from brushing one's teeth and how to properly urinate; to how to dress, and what foods to eat; to how to deal with multiple wives and punish slaves. Islamic Law is harsh, legalistic and divides the world into them and us. If there was anything of merit in the Quran, it is negated by these two other sources.
While Mohammad fled his enemies, Jesus voluntarily faced his (although he believed we should love our enemies), was executed for no real reason, but managed to pardon his executioners and bring two thieves into the Kingdom. Jesus brought dignity to what could be termed as a humiliating situation. Mohammad had the example of Jesus' sacrifice but loved his worldly life too dearly and began a campaign of death and destruction for all those who opposed him after arriving in Medina.
Polygamy is outlawed in the United States. The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) has denounced the actions of a renegade sect, and Utah as well as the United States government, are breaking up these sects and arresting the leaders.
Suicide is banned in both Judaism and Christianity. The examples you cited are poor choices as they were not true Chistians. Suicide is the ultimate rejection of God and is usally a solitary act. Some cemeteries still will not allow suicides within their walls.
Hitler hated organized, orthodox religion and tried to instill his own brand of religion in order to justify his lust for power and subjugation of people.
But not one of those suicides you cited walked into a crowded wedding feast, school, marketplace, or onboard any mode of transport to include innocent people in the act,
A muslim martyr is proactive, a Christian martyr is passive.
A Muslim martyr is the murderer, the Christian martyr is the victim.
To say that anyone can become an Imam without any training or intellect speaks volumes. It generally takes six years of post-graduate work in order to become a rabbi or priest and they are overseen by their respective hierarchies and laity to conform to the values and laws of their respective sects.
The stories of Jesus as they are written in the Quran are fiction.
Please pick up a copy of The Holy Bible and read the Four Gospels for the words and deeds of Jesus. While you may reject His divinity, I dare you to find anything in His thoughts, words, or deeds to justify immoral behavior, murder or conquest.
It's about time that Muslims start to gain a better idea of the true beliefs of Jews and Christians from primary sources.
However, I'm not sure if there were religious freedom in most Islamic countries and freedom to access accurate information, how many Muslims would remain Muslims?
#75Thank you, A.M. Whittaker, for taking the time to answer thoroughly...I accept his (or her) admission that his (or her) email was faulty....however, I wonder if it were a mistake, since I see this SO OFTEN from muslims on the Internet.
There are many Christians right now in Saudi Arabia, and around the Muslim world who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and yet have no access to baptismal fonts, etc. They are listening to Christian radio and TV and coming by the MILLIONS every month for further instruction. They sometimes hold prayer services with others with the TV programs on, but overall, they are in the closet, and have no access outside that closet due to ISLAMIC law and DEATH sentences for apostates.
Muslims blame Christianity for ANY AND ALL of the evils that happen in free societies...this way, they never have to examine the Bible....However, when we point out the terrorists evil, they always say they do not represent islam...nor does the Saudi Royal Family, Mubarak, King Hussein of Jordan, Sirhan Sirhan, the killer of RFK, or the various assassins as well as the soul-less homicide bombers...or the very lovely master beheader and torturer, zarqawi, or moqtada the awesome great, or the sublimely gentle khomeini....or the freedom-loving hatemi, or the merciful mass murderer, hafez assad, or, hey, charismatic arafat?? OL' ARAFAT DIED WITH BILLIONS HE STOLE FROM HIS OWN POVERTY STRICKEN people. OH, excuse me, he came from Egypt, so I guess he had no loyalty to the Palestinians....
Or, let me ask, is there a Somali Islamist you like? How about Bin Laden? Or the Chechen women terrorists who killed babies? Or maybe you like those Pakistani men who do nothing but manufacture guns to kill others as a way to promote their so-called religion? Let me think....maybe you would say that the ultra-wealthy in UAE and Bahrain are the real examples of islamic leaders, or maybe there are some Albanian militia you like.....or maybe you like CAIR, the cover for violent Hamas in the US? I am stumped.
May I ask you, Shahid, WHO IS YOUR FAVORITE MUSLIM LEADER THESE DAYS? Who IS an example of Islam to you? PLEASE TELL ME, because I cannot find one who I respect.
I saw plenty of Hajj who cheat people, lie, steal, and commit adultery....they are the epitomy of hypocrisy...and are no different than our Christian ministers who engage in evils. But islam has no perfect sinless savior, and thus has no life, nor power to heal, to create, or to love.
Look how many hangings and state executions there are in islamic countries? Is Shahid going to say that muslims countries have no crime, and no sin? Oh, please. AND THEN, WE COME TO SADDAM, great example of universal tolerance and love. How many hundreds of thousands of his henchmen killed innocent muslim women and children with their own bare hands, after raping them, etc? And burne tehm alive in boiling oil? Or showered them with chemical weapons in experiments that made Hitler look like a boy scout? Or marched them into their desert graves?
How many good muslims did this to other good muslims? I heard not one muslim outcry when all this was happening. I am wondering where this so-called majority of moderate muslims exists? SILENCE IS COMPLICITY.
Shahid....please tell all of us which city you live in? I wonder if you are in Le France? Or better yet, Britain? That would explain your European/muslim views on Christianity to me.
Have you ever known a Christian up close? I have known many many muslims, and I know that they express their doubts about islam to each other, and their complaints about it to each other, but never to outsiders, as that is a sin. I know you have doubts which you would not express except to another muslim....
I wish you enlightenment and may you (with YOUR WHOLE HEART)seek, ask, and knock, for the real God of Truth, Beauty and Love to come to you....may you meet Jesus soon, and I wish you Life Eternal through His Salvific Blood. It is available as full payment for your sins if you simply pray and ask Him to come into your heart, and be Lord of your life.
If you would take the time, Shahid, to read the words of Jesus Christ, (though I know you have been brainwashed to believe we Christians changed the Bible to delete muhammad's name) you would be ABLE TO DECIDE FOR YOURSELF IF GOD spoke THEM OR NOT.
#76Shahid, you say:
I am really sorry about the email addresse. Please you can write me at //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') document.write("&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"); else document.write(unescape(l[i])); } //]]> .
HOWEVER, YOU CONTINUE TO TYPE IN THE FAKE ADDRESS WHENEVER YOU POST. Isn't that indicative of something?
#77Islam in Fast Demise
In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Every year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity ...
www.faithfreedom.org
PLease check this out, Shahid
#78I will try to answer each and every question that you ask with reason. Some time I can not answer as fast as you would like but I would try.
Muslim leader you should check out is Prince Karim Aga Khan.
Islam does not allow Suicide either It is very unfourtunate the Palestine has taken this Path but it is their war what can I say.
Religous teacher in Islam are allowed because you are told to find you own path because God leaves in you heart and will guid you.
In Muslim country people do commit all type of sin and they are punsih in different countries differently Just like there different punishment in Christain Country.
You have written very bad thing about Son of God Muhommed but you have not quoted any book or Hadith attribute were we can confirm what you have written.
I do not think that you, even Priest have authority to say that some one is not christain. if Ernest Hemmingway say he was Christain so he was christain. Who are you or I to dispute the fact.
Polygamy is not outlaw in Utah you can write to Governer Office and confirm. Yes they are trying to out law but they just could not passed it yet.
Ms Winter only think you have is hate in heart open up your self I will teach you love through Christianty, Islam and Judaism. I love all three religion. my wife is Jew.
Trust me You have not seen the beautifully side of Islam. Have ever seen how christainty is practice in Pakistan or Etophia. One brother would be christain so other would Mulsim. And most place and would seat togehter pray. Do not go on media say they are big liar.
Which Christain Leader do you Like? becouse I can not find any that I like?
Saddam Hussain was a Paid employe of American CIA Of course you do not want to talk about CIA and what it does in this third world countries.
When you are talking Bible which bible you are talking about King James version or orthodox Bible that Russian christain read or some other version. In quran there is only nice thing written about christian. In quran God confrim that Mary was virgin and thier should be no dispute about it.
Well you telling me to read some nice thing about christian how about you doing the same. Reading some good book about Islam. Anne Marie SCHIMMEL is good writer I cannot suggest any muslim writer book because they would not be available in our closed society where we know more about basketball then our neighbour.
#79St. Patrick’s Cathedral is a Roman Catholic cathedral which lies on Shahrah-e-Iraq, formerly known as Clarke Street, located near the Empress Market in Karachi, Pakistan.
The first church in Sindh (except for possibly one in Thatta) was initially built on the grounds of this cathedral in 1845, and was called St. Patrick’s Church. It was in April 1881 that the present cathedral was opened, since the Christian community grew in number, and the need for a larger place of worship became apparent. Despite the construction of the new building, the little church continued to function until it was destroyed by a storm in 1885.
The present-day cathedral is built in Gothic style; it measures 170 ft by 75 ft, and has the capacity to accommodate at least 1,500 worshippers at the same time. It was designed by three members of the Society of Jesus: Father Wagner, Brother Kluver and Brother Lau.
The Gazetteer of the Province of Sindh provides a description of the cathedral:
"Its exterior is not ornamental, though striking from a distance, but money and art have been lavished on the interior. The chancel, itself spacious, acquires a special impressiveness but its additional height, while the noble contours of the aspiring altar are seen to the best advantage. The whole interior is painted in oil and the windows are all of stained glass, the members of the congregation."
Today, the cathedral's grounds are adorned with a marble monument of Christ the King, which was constructed in 1931 to commemorate the memory of the Jesuit Mission in Sindh.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick's_Cathedral,_Karachi"
#80Vik Comments # 13 are you sure Iraqi are doing it or our CIA is doing the job for them.
#81Osama bid laden visited White House of Mr Reagan when he was supported and train by US Administration to fight a Christain Country called Soviet Union.
#82Ms Winter Comments # 77 do I care I wish it demise yesterday. We will fight some else to fight over. How about killing more Red Indians or how killing some Catlohic.
#83"Can I sell you six million Jew in USA" This are the word of Franklin Roosevelt while meeting Stalin in Yalta. Can some one explain.
#84Shadhid,
First, Ernest Hemmingway himself, renounced religion, one needs only to read his biography.
While many of the Russian people are very spiritual, the Soviet Union was officially an athiestic nation. Religious worship was considered anti-establishment although some marriages and naptisms still took place because of tradition, rather than faith. Many churches and synagogues were destroyed or converted to other uses. Soviet Jewry tried for decades to leave the Soviet Union since they were not permitted to worship and no one could study to become a rabbi. As late as 1987. my personal Holy Bible was confiscated by Soviet customs. So your idea that the Soviet Union was a Christian country is entirely false. That is why President Reagan called it an, "Evil empire".
I'm not sure you were referring to me or Ms. Winter concerning Mohammad (Ms. Winter and I are two different people). I referred to Mohammad's biography words, and actions as contained in the Hadith as well as Sharia Law. I pointed out that whatever merit there was in the Quran, was negated by these other two sources, which actually dictate Islamic life. Perhaps it is you, who should read the Hadith and study Sharia Law rather than have me start to list everything; I simply don't have that sort of time and the space here is too limited.
It does not matter to me how beautiful the sentiments of the Quran are: It is the effect it has on its followers that is the real test. Muslims seem to pay more attention to the Hadith and Sharia rather than Quran.
And the passages concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph are all fictitious. The revisionist history and conclusions of the Old testament as interpreted by the Quran is fictitious.
The Holy Bible has been translated into the vulgate of each society and era. Except for an addition in the Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, the contents are the same, but in different languages. These translations are the result of the Protestant Reformation. Religious authorities are always striving to get the translations correct through scholarship and extensive research. Therefore the King James version is just as valid as the Holy Bible used by the Eastern or Greek Orthodox Churches and the Revised Standard version. All Christian authorities agree that each Holy Bible contains everything needed for salvation.
I have been told by my Muslim friends and neighbors that even the Quran, Hagith, and Sharia Law are subject to interpretation. These different interpretations as well as claims as to who should have taken over after the death of Mohammad are what separates the Islamic community. to this day.
While we have differences within the Christian community, they pale over the differences and actions of the Islamic community. Christians are not killing one another in the name of G-d.
You write:
Religous teacher in Islam are allowed because you are told to find you own path because God leaves in you heart and will guid you.
So Islam has no real central authority or checks and balances on those who preach? Religous teachers of all ages, backgrounds and scholarship (or none) in Islam are allowed because you are told to find you own path because God lives in you heart and will guide you.
This is very dangerous and is probably the reason there is so much strife and division amongst Muslims. Do-your-own-thing religion can simply justify one's own agenda which may or may not be G-d given or inspired. How would any ordinary person discern which Imam is correct and true to the Quran?
I did not come to my opinions through cultural or political means. It is only by living amongst Muslims that I have recently learned about their beliefs and I have been given a Quran, Hadith, and websites containing Sharia Law.
I have read all three and I find them frightening.
Polygamy is NOT lawful in Utah and not sanctioned by the Mormons (although it was originially part of their religion and they were persecuted for this). This was one of the points that set them apart from American/Christian society and they had a revelation that this practice must end. It was then that the Mormons were able to assimilate into American society as law-abiding citizens. It is the so-called fundamentalist Mormons that have rejected the teaching of the true and accepted LDS Church who are barricading themselves into these lawless communities and practicing polygamy and forcing young girls into marriage. The LDS is still not part of the mainstream Christian community, but they are not being murdered for their religious beliefs by mainstram Christians.
I have no hate in my heart toward anyone and I have not advocated the destruction of any nation or group of people.
But I will defend my faith and country from being conquered by Islam.
#85I think you mean Hadith and Sunna. Shariah Law has nothing to do with Muhammad. Hadith are saying of Muhammad. and Sunna are pratice of Muhammad. Ismailies and many other denomination do not take any of it seriously.
Just like bible has effect on our life sameway I am sure Quran has effect on muslim. And that is called religion. Most of us in USA come across Sunni Arab pratice which does not represent Islam as whole.
Ali is regartted bigger than Muhammed in some society of Islam. Teaching of Ali is very important in this Society which even some time Sunni muslim do not know. Islam you realy need to know is Suffism or Ismailies.Read writing of some one like Rumi.
"Work is not what people think it is. It is not just something which, when it is operating, you can see from outside". Rumi
Ernest Hemmingway did renounce his religion and thats exactly my point. Thanks I knew your answer.
I am sure you do not want me to write about Catholic Church and thier history. And thier outlook against christain and Jew and the role they play in killing of Jews in world war II in europe.
This excalty I am trying to tell reader in this blog it is very easy to hate. But please do not hate just because you do not know. Media is big liar. I am just a small person in this big world. Only thing I am trying to learn is how to love my fellow human being Please pray for me that Jesus would fullfil my dream. Amen!
#86I also meant Sharia Law.
While I am not a Roman Catholic, the actions of the Pontiffs in the past four decades have brought about theology and attitudes based on the teachings of Jesus.
The fact that the Popes from Paul VI to the present have made great efforts to heal the wounds of two millenia created by the leaders of the Church and clarify their present and future position, has made me respect them more.
We here on earth now, are not responsible for that which has ocurred in the past; we are responsible for what occurs in the present and to lay a foundation of peace for the future. We can acknowlege past transgressions, learn from them, and make sure they do not happen in the future.
So the discussison of what has happened in the past is not as relevant as what we are prepared to do now to insure peace and freedom for all people in the future. If we start pointing fingers, it should be pointed toward ourselves.
The Christian community has renounced its past transgressions. No such apology has emanated from the Muslims for the transgessions against Christians and Jews. The Muslim community is not even renouncing present transgressions and is using the past as justification. They believe they can do no wrong.
That is the quandary and stumbling block.
Sharia Law and much of about the life of Mohammad is not compatible with Judeo-Christian ethics, morals, and law. Until the Islamic community makes an honest assessment of its past transgressions, renounces that which was in error, tries to make amends, and is able to co-exist with and abide by the laws and culture of the respective nations in which Muslims live, there can be no peace.
#87Shahid, you do not answer questions, and you only attack my character to avoid answering. You answer a few questions with other attacks, and since I know that muslims have no desire or habit of self-reflection, and would rather die than admit their own shortcomings, I am leaving this long-winded discussion to others. I guess you do not have to fear the terrorists in your back yard.maybe some of them will be convicned you are an OK muslim, if you just participate in jihad somehow...maybe with your money??? Or you could point to these blogs and say, "See, I have done my part to promote islam!!" Maybe in your religion of salvation by works, and by personal effort, you can convince allah to save you.....but the God of Israel, I don't claim to know what He will do with you. They are NOT the same God, by the way......
I certainly have seen the so-called "good side" of Islam. Half my huge family is muslim. I have spent plenty of time in Egypt, Turkey and Iraq........the socities I saw are full of miserable people, convincing themselves thatn whatever lot they have in life is allah's will. I watched such things as a family turn around and walk back into a housefire they could not escape from, rather than jump from a balcony, because IT WAS ALLAH'S WILL. I watched the forced labor of orphans building the international airstrip in Cairo.....I saw MANY muslims begging on roadsides because they were simply handicapped...I saw the poor living in cardboard boxes because there is no welfare system other than the family, and the family was killed by saddam. I saw plenty in Turkey as well. I saw the huge prison in Dyarbekir where screams of political prisoners can be heard and where many muslims set themselves on fire and died rather than endure their torturers.
I saw poverty of spirit and I saw poverty of education....I saw that boys can beat up their sisters and no one says a word. I saw that girls are hanged as a matter of course, or killed in so-called "honor killings" without any proof that they were guilty, and the perpetrators stood there watching......I SAW THIS. So don't try to tell me about the wrongs you see in the USA. And do not tell me I have not seen the "good side" of islam.....what is the good side, please? Never mind......don't answer that. I'm outta here.
You said nothing about where you live......I would bet you are from CAIR, or some group that assigns people like you to get on the Internet. Outwarddly you ACT peaceful but in your heart you harbor alot of hate yourself...I see it in your complaints about Christians and your retorts.......but you are aertful at smoothing it out for the unlearned.
I see that A>M> Whittaker is willing to go on and answer your claims one by one, because Christiainity has nothing to fear in debates.
You apparently are Shiia, and I suppose you would like to tell the audience about how Khomeini is one i a long line of Imams who had the presence of God living in him, and he is called HOLY. This concept is fairly recent, in the last 300 years, to Shiia islam, and it was adopte because the Shiias could not offer anything to match the Presence of God in Christ. Shiia religion has had to sup0ercede muhammad with Ali, because muhammad was an arab supremacist....and his arab caliphs killed Ali.....so your (apparent) religion is NOT CONSIDERED ISLAM BY ANY OF THE SUNNIS, AND YOU GUYS ARE NEXT ON THE HIT LIST OF INFIDELS
after Jews and Christian apes and pigs.
If you think it is hateful to speak this way, without nicey nicey politically correct slogans, you are wrong. jesus called the hypocrites "whited sepulchres" and He was unwilling to become politically correct, which is really another version of idolatry. Truth is by nature going to be LOVING, since it will strengthen you where you are weak and weaken you where you are strong....paradoxically making you fit for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Shahid I find it preposterous that you would claim to teach me about the love of Jesus....there is no love in the Koran and anything you know about freedom, democracy, love, truth, beauty, honesty (????) and faith comes from the King of Kings Himself, Jesus Christ, not from muhammad.
I am shaking the dust off my feet and going elsewhere.....I wish you futility in your islam, and frustration in your practise of it, and failure in the pushing of its control mechanisms on everyone else.
#88Comment # 86 Whittakar You are so wrong when you say the we christain Community should or have renounce our past aggression against Jews. I will quote from bible and if you do believe in it then I will assume you are not christain.
Salvation is from the Jew (John 4:22)
you will not see me until you (the Jew)say, 'Blessed is he (Jesus) that come in the name of the lord (Matthew 23:39)
You see we do not have the way out until either every Jew is converted to Christainty or killed. You think does learned people in vatican are fools.
#89Your theology is quite faulty and you have taken scripture out of context.
As this is not the forum for a Christian theological discussion, I do not know your background, and it appears you have limited scholarship in Christian theology, I shall not invest any more time in this.
Peace be unto you.
#90Shahid,
You posted a website on reply #21 of the Anti-Cindy Sheenhan thread that has nothing to do with the topic.
While I understand that you were trying to give a clue to your background and I appreciate learning about new philosophies and people, this does not sway me.
Since you have already quoted the Holy Bible (New Testament), I shall end our discussion with the following concerning your Aga Khan:
Matthew 24:11 Matthew 24:24 2Peter 2:1
You wrote in #88 on this thread:
You see we do not have the way out until either every Jew is converted to Christainty or killed. You think does learned people in vatican are fools.
This is an outrageous statement! It is this sort of pronouncement that Muslims use to justify the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel.
That is not Christian or G-dly.
You have shown your true colors: You are a Judeophobe.
I will pray for you but I do not wish to converse with you again.
#91do not assume who am I; Just know that I know more about Christainty, Islam and Judaism than most of you. And trust me I do not want to sway you. Christainty is the most beatiful religion on this planet let me say on this galaxy.
The Arab nation never harmed the Jewish People until the advent of Zionist nationalism.
Rabbi Amram Blau
And this Rabbi know more than you know
Trust me within an hour I can prove you through Bible, Quran, Torah, and from learned of three religion that what happening between Isreal and Palestine has nothing to do with Christainty, Islam and Jews.
Do you know according Torah it is sin for Jew to go to Isreal. Because Messiah (King) will come and he will take them to Isreal call any Rabbi and ask him if this is true. If you want Contact for Rabbi send me email and I will send you several. Do not blind your self with hatered
#92Just know that I know more about Christainty, Islam and Judaism than most of you.
Dude, you don't even know how to spell the names of the things you're talking about. Your misspelling, "Christainty", isn't a typo - it's repeated in several posts you've made in this thread. And you don't even know how to spell "Israel."
Shahid, you've been posting lots of quotes with no links to them. If you post a quote, good blogging practice is to provide a link so people can verify whether the quote is correct.
Do you know according Torah it is sin for Jew to go to Isreal.
That is silly. I challenge you to document that right now, with links to document anything you quote. And if you quote an authority, don't quote some Jihadist nutjob.
It seems like you may have just moved to America, and like you may still believe all the nonsense you were taught in some other country. I think your participation here may be a sign that you are in fact willing to learn something. What country did you grow up in?
#93Shahid, I just reread your comment #88:
You see we do not have the way out until either every Jew is converted to Christainty or killed.
That's despicable.
A.M. is right - from her post #90:
It is this sort of pronouncement that Muslims use to justify the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel.
That is not Christian or G-dly.
You have shown your true colors: You are a Judeophobe.
#94It so sad that every one curse me just because I have different view. I have post lots of quotes and have ask lot of question but none of you answer but only critize me.
Christainity Happy now
Let come to your Challenge I will quote few Rabbi and few verse from Torah. And I am sure you will have question and I will answer them too. Ofcourse researching this Rabbi and Torah verses upto you if you do not find what I am writing then come back blame me.
Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld
"The Jews do not want to take in any way that which is not theirs, and they certainly do not want to contest the rights of the other inhabitants to the places held by them which they regard with honor and consider holy. And in particular there is not foundation to the rumor that the jews want to acquire the Temple Mount. On the contrary from the time that because of our sins, we have been lacking the prurity required by the Torah, It is forbidden for any Jew to set foot upon the grounds of Temple Mount".
Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik
"The Jewish People suffered many Plagues The Sadducees, Karaites, Hellenisers, Shabbesai Zvi, haskalah, Reform and many others. But the strongest of them all is Zionism".
Rabbi Ben Zion Halberstam of Bobov
"For behold in our times there have arisen irresponsible men, who throw of the yoke of Torah and mitzvos and conice the Jewish pople to be like all the nations, to build themselves and independent government, and they pretend that this is the ultimate redemption. But it is ovvious and know the they speak falsely, and that their way is the complete antithesis of the Torah... see the Targum on Shir Hashirim 8:4. 'The King Moshiach will say , I adjure you, my people, house of Isreael, why do you fight with the people of the land, to leave exile? Wait a little more and the master of the world will recall the love of the righteous ones and it will be his will to redeem you' and this is based on the Gemora in Kesubos (111a) That Hakodosh Baruch Hu made the Jewish people swear not to force the end."
Now do you need more fatwa from Rabbi. Now do you want me quote more from Torah or is it enough as quote by this Rabbis. Now would you answer some of my question that ask in my pervious Posting. Like emialing me Isreal constitution Oh you want me to spell it right Israel. Oh there is not one, Country has democray but does have constitution wonder why?
Please do not blind yourself with hatered What happening between Israel and Palstenie has nothing to do with christainity, Islam, and Judaism.
#95Your Answer to comment #93
Salvation is from the Jew (John 4:22)
you will not see me until you (the Jew)say, ‘Blessed is he (Jesus) that come in the name of the lord (Matthew 23:39)
#96Shahid,
1) It's up to you to provide links to your quotes. If you don't then we can't tell if you fabricated them or misinterpreted them.
2) You must retract and apologize for your statement in #88 that you want all Jews to be killed or to convert to another religion. If you don't I have nothing more to say to you; additionally, if you don't, I may ban you from this site.
#97I have quoted with the name of Rabbi and verse from Torah Now you prove me wrong. By doing your own research.
I have only quoted what Holly Bible say they are not my saying. I do not want to convert any one or Kill any one I was just trying to make you understant people hate each other without any reason.
As far as banning me form the side is upto you. I think I have postively contributed you know that when I am on muslim blog I challeged them as much as I have challeged your members. And some is true when I am on Jews blog. I can read and write Hebrew, Arabic and English.
So if you do not want to be challenged Go ahead your lost not mine. I would only say that you are myopic.
#98You have to provide a link on the Internet to your quote. Otherwise we can't tell if you made it up or misinterpreted it. Don't ask us to do your research for you.
And you can't even spell "Holy Bible." Your interpretation of it is silly.
#99In response to Daud, #22, neglecting, or choosing not to follow what muhammad commanded muslims to do does not change a thing about Islam, but following the example of Mohammed is the path with which every Muslim is assured with a seat in Paradise,“Verily in the apostle of allah you have the best example for everyone who looks forward towards allah and the day of Judgment” (KORAN 63:21)
Then, sahih muslim, hadith number 5818, (Translation by abdulla hamid siddiqi,) we see, “Avoid that which I forbid you to do and do that which I command you to do to the best of your capacity." muhammad is the model for ALL muslims to follow, and the history of his jihads against arabs and Jews and Christians is well documented in the koran and the hadith, and by the historical classical muslim scholars.
The koran says that all who do not participate in [violent] jihad are not true muslims, and are to be counted with the infidels...a woman's jihad may consist of having many children she can offer to the jihad, an old man may convey money to support jihad, but the militarily capable must participate, and where necessary, give their blood.
This is THE REASON the terrorists consider themselves TRUE muslims and they can so easily justify their murders of civilians. It is because they have Koranic bases for saying the mass of civilians in muslims countries (like Iraq) are NOT TRUE MUSLIMS. If they were TRUE MUSLIMS, they would be fighting alongside them in the trenches.Even if they happen to kill TRUE MUSLIMS, the terrorist say they will go to paradise as martyrs, so it really doesn't matter...
They go and get their little sanctioning fatwas, and proceed to become the ugliest most murderous, and crazed actors in their self-styled violent jihads...zarqawi's empty, crazed look in a few short years, came from so many bloody beheadings he was only too happy to conduct himself. The only comparable thing like it I have seen on earth is the dead look in a shark's eyes. There should be an oscar given for the best example of islam each year, because they sure do compete for it worldwide.
Who knows? Maybe there are rewards and honors given within Bin Laden's little circle for just such deeds....after all, does anyone remember how much zarqawi wanted to become a "recognized" member of al-qaeda? That was important to him....he needed the recognition of men, as allah's was not "enough" for him.
These ARE the TRUE MUSLIMS, according to the koran and hadith, according to muhammad's example. Every single muslim knows this is the case, and knows that one day these same people will come for him unless he gets his act together and participates NOW in jihad.THIS IS THE GREAT THREAT OF UNASSIMILATED muslims in the West.
muhammad left the ugliest and blodiest example of ANY founder of an ideology...and, as I cited above, all muslims must follow it if they are to get to Paradise.
Even marx, whose writings led to more than a billion deaths, and even hitler did not personally leave such an ugly, horrific example as a human being......muhammad's own hand in attacking caravans, in slaughtering and beheading whole Jewish communites, raping and enslaving others' wives, daughters, women he fancied, and children. After all, if one views his enemies as pigs and apes, it is easier to slaughter them and behead them...
muhammad was physically active in blood feuds, in manipulating others into wars, and slaughtering his enemies by means of lies, promises, and then robbing them and forcing their conversions (to himself!!) His personal torturing of his enemies surpasses the personal example of such heinous people as hitler and saddam. Even mao, whose edicts led to the slaughter of hundreds of millions, did not love to do the killings HIMSELF. BUT SOMEHOW THE muslim tyrants love to engage in it with their very own hands, over and over and over.
The tyrant greats of islam far surpass the world's bloodiest leaders, and the muslim tyrnts carry their sins as the most depraved examples of tyrants, bloodthirst, and torture unknown in any other cultures.
As Dennis Miller mused, "There is no such phrase as life is too short" in islam.
#100I chanllege any muslim to show me word Jihad in Quran.
#101Rabbi Amram Blau – Judas Goat
This man has been mentioned a couple of times to represent Jewish opinion. He was a major leader in the Neturei Karta movement.
Of the over thirteen million Jews throughout the world, his philosophy represents the sentiments of .03% of all Jews. He and his ultra-orthodox lunatic fringe have perverted the Talmud. They have been condemned by every major Jewish organization and religious body, even those that had at one time aligned with Neturei Karta.
They are unable to assimilate into any society,
With their active support of Yasser Arafat, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Louis Farrakhan. the members of Neturei Karta are tantamount to Nazi collaborators and sympathizers.
And this is called a viable source to support your view?
#102The word jihad appears in arabic all over the pages of the koran..it has many meanings and applications.....please open to the index.
Most muslims who hide behind fake names and blog on the Internet do not even know the koran, and/or they deny what it contains, in the effort to confuse us all....well, there are plenty of korans out there and the Americans are never easy to convince or confuse.
Shahid, (if that is your real name) please answer the question I asked you in responding to the email you sent me.
You only ask rhetorical questions, give no answers, and truthfully, I am not interested in the type of person who is all about escape and evasion in dialogue, attack and run after "monologuing" us all....this is the mark of an arab, for sure.....no answers coming from your end at all....nor are you interested in the answers coming from us.....there is none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE.
#103Shahid (if that is your real name) the word jihad appears in the koran all over.....try looking at one, please. You might try the index, since the term jihad has the biggest number of pages in the index compared to any other word in the koran.
#104Shahid (if that is your real name) open the koran to the back, to what is called the index....the word jihad appears there and has more notations and citings in the koran than any other single word........by the way, you will not find the word LOVE in that index, nor in the koran.
#105Those who spend ( of that which Allah Hath Given them)in ease and Adversity those who control thier wrath and are forgiving to toward Mankind Allah loveth the good.
Al-Imran verses 134
Please do not challenge me you already lost many time. May peace be with you.
#106We are talking in english not arbic so please quote word jihad with verses just do not say it is thier Please quote it with Ayat and verses number in English. and if you no longer want to converse in english please let me know. Please quote the verse in english with its number. Please Please. A hint
I have had a great struggle with my sister, and I have won." So she named him Naphtali.
Genesis 30:7-9
#107Hetred won't get you guys anywhere. Stop with the arguing and start with the conversing.
#108#88 Salvation is from the Jew (John 4:22)
This is a misquote. The actual quote (King James Bible) is:
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews."
Not only that, the person saying it is Jesus, and the context points out that Jesus is Jewish:
John 4:6 - Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7. There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8. (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9. Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
...
21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews.
It sounds to me like Jesus is saying salvation comes from the Jews.
In any case, #88 is a misquotation.
#109We are talking in english not arbic so please quote word jihad with verses just do not say it is thier Please quote it with Ayat and verses number in English. and if you no longer want to converse in english please let me know. Please quote the verse in english with its number.
The Arabic word, "jihad," would not appear in an English translation. It would be translated, of course, into English.
#110Thats Right and when you read Holy Bible in arbic the word is use is Jihad.
#111Your are wrong. Here is link for you to it check out. I like you doing your home work, Great!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%204:22&version=31
22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
#112That's not the King James version; it's some version they call the "New International Version." In the context, which I quoted, it sounds like the Bible is saying that salvation comes from the Jews. The passage is certainly not pejorative to the Jews.
#113Shahid kinnare, I greatly appreciate your courage in comming to a site like this and stating your views. It can't be easy to argue against many people at once.
The problem as I see it, is that the quran has been re-written by some of the greatest poets in Arab history. Many Arabs are so seduced by it flowery words that they think it's the true word of G-d that cannot be altered or re-interpreted.
Unfortunately Shahid, unlike the new testament the quran has no substance, there is absolutely nothing that can be learned from this book. The religion of Islam was created by Mohammed so that he could put himself at it's centre, this is why he has been called a narcissist. As far as I know no other prophet has come to the people and claimed "God has revealed to me a new religion, it's called Islam". God doesn't reveal religions! LOL!
Anyway, Mohammed WAS revealed to Christians in the New Testament and his coming was foretold.
The relevant verse in the Bible is Matthew 7:15-7:16.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits
We know Mohammed by his fruits, don't we Shahid?
Christians also commited brutal acts over the centuries, killing each other and people of other faiths. But Western Society is the result of Christians become closer to Christ and following his example. The more we become closer to Jesus the more compassionate, tolerant and forgiving we become. It was Jesus who said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" refering to the punishment of stoning to death for adultery.
Muslims who follow their religion more closely become dangerous murderers! Shahid, don't you find it ironic that when a Christian behaves badly the people around him wish that he was more "christian", and when a muslim behaves badly people around him wish that he was more "secular"?
Ye shall know them by their fruits, Shahid. Don't forget that.
#114In response to #105, the translations of the koran into English DO use the word love, but all muslims, when WE quote the English versions tell us these are not accurate translations and that anything but the arabic is not the true koran...This is how arabic muslims get around answering any and all of us..I put this right back to you...
The English translations, as well as the Farsi, the Spanish, the Danish, etc. korans are all done without accuracy, but with an eye to converting the non-muslims. These translations are not true to the arabic in many suras, and only the arabic is accepted as accurate in islam...SO WHY ARE YOU ASKING US TO BELIEVE YOUR English QUOTE? It is not an accurate translation.
I say again, there is NOT the word love in the koran as we know it, other than to refer to the sexual sort of "love" a man has for his wife.
Before you quote us a non-koran, please remember that allah is a transcendant being and has NOTHING TO DO WITH MANKIND....NOT HERE OR IN PARADISE. allah does not love mankind, according to islamic doctrine....allah is so far above mankind, according to islam, that he could not even give his revelation directly to man or speak with muhammad...he had to give it to gabriel, who recited it to muhammad.
Muslims adopt every lofty notion associated with Judaism and Christianity, and claim it can be found in the koran. They will lie if need be about islam....If the concept is not there, be sure the next translation of the arabic will include it as "an accurate translation." This is SIMPLY A PLOY to defeat non-Muslims in debate. Shahid, we are interested in HONESTY.
The ONLY notion in the koran and hadith even remotely associated with the word love is an arabic word for the sexual relationship (like we say making love) between a husband and wife....and certainly allah cannot have that kind of love, or HE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE A SON. shocker
You are on a slippery slope now making use of a translation into English (which is in no way considered the koran.) You quote this non-koran as it posits our general word "love."
Allah may "look kindly" upon mankind,(which by the way, is only msulims, since the rest of us are apes and pigs.) For MUSLIMS to translate looking kindly upon muslims as "LOVE" is RIDICULOUS. Of course, we read in the hadith that allah had no "kindness" whatsoever for black people, for non-muslims, for the pigs and apes that are Christians and Jews.
We in the West would not consider such a partisan, exclusionary, anthropomorphic allah as being very "loving." AND YOU KNOW IT...THIS is how YOU HOPE TO USE OUR CONCEPTS of unconditional love against us, in such NON-ACCURATE TRANSLATIONS.
"Love" is simply is not an appropriate attribute of allah, according to islamic doctrine. It does not even appear as one of the 100 names of allah........try changing that for me, please. You are changing the words of the koran,and you are attributing to allah a characteristic of a man which is blasphemy, and I would think that blasphemy for the sake of spreading islam is quite a contradiction. allah cannot be compared to a man in any way, including love.
Why is a muslim is expected to lead such a moral life here, but has every indecency and immoral practise promised and afforded to him (AS A GOOD, desirable INSTITUTION) in the life hereafter? HOw is it alcohol is bad here, but good there? How about man's lust and continuous sex with virgin after virgin, and homosexual boys as often as the muslim man desires,etc. etc? Isn't this an immoral paradise?
It certainly is NOT PARADISE for the women and boys being subjected to the muslim men. Oh, excuse me, the jihaddi men are the only ones worthy of "paradise" anyway.
#115A note to post #41:
Your heart may be in the right place, but you cannot extend to islam the niceties of assuming they share our values, and say every culture has its "freaks." These muslim "freaks" as you call them, are supported by nearly 75% of all muslims polled in the US and Europe.
All cultures have their freaks, TRUE. But when we see the muslim on the street overseas, we see fully 10% or more are radicalized "freaks." This means there are MILLIONS of radical "freaks." This is why it is a problem....there are millions and millions of jihaddis out there, and guess what....we have broken borders. I do not see anything even comparable in any other ideology that produces such freaks.....but I do see the reasons for it in the koran and hadith...in muhammad's example. Yes, indeedy I do.
Your comments show that you know little about islam, which is OK, but the question is, do you want to know the truth? You have to go to their written documents and BOOKS.
You write:
Look, I agree with what you guys are saying here for the most part, but I just want to say that we can’t let ourselves view all Muslims negatively. We all know that it is only a few Muslims who are “out to get us and our way of life”. And this is a very real thing. But all cultures have their “freaks”, and we can’t let them alter how we view the rest of the people in an entire culture. Hitler was a Christian, right?
I just wanted to throw that out there
When we discuss a religion or a political manifesto, we GO TO THE WRITTEN VERSION........ trying to talk to the muslim at the gas station, or the one next door is fruitless for YOUR understanding islam.
Each muslim is raised with an oral, folk version of islam and he will argue you to death denying this or that is true, or whether it even appears in the koran. Even my husband's half of the family refuses to believe that muhammad ever committed a sin, though the koran says that he did....they refuse to believe that he started jihads, or that he beheaded Jews, destroying their communities, killing and raping their children and wives....They will not discuss anything that contradicts their safe little folk version....they refuse to open a koran for fear that they would have to make a choice A LIFE CHOICE about their muslim world view.
Thus, when we in scholarly circles discuss islam, Judaism, or Christianity, we do not look at those who CLAIM to be adherents, (Hitler was not a Christian!) We lust, for the sake of accuracy, examine what THE HOLY BOOKS SAY.
The koran is the point we discuss when debating a muslim, and 99% of them are shockingly ignorant of what it says......they may know a few verses, but most of what they believe is islam is what was adopted in past centuries as good doctrine from Judaism and Christianity. Most muslims do not even know that their incorporation of unconditional love from God cannot be found in islam....
Please try to learn something yourself about the Koran, as there are some good websites, done entirely by former muslims, who well know what the koran says in arabic...I refer you to one http://www.freedomfaith.org from there, you will find others.
You say that we cannot let the freaks alter our views of the rest of the muslims. You are right, but I may add that it is important for us to sift out which ones are which....I have had for years many "friends" who are muslim, but one day recently I decided to email them and tell them that I had decided to let them know I WOULD NEVER CONVERT TO ISLAM. Now I mentioned that according to their religion, to the koran, they had to kill me one day....as each non-muslim gets only one chance to convert.
NOT ONE OF THEM emailed back and declared he was still my friend, and not one denied that his mission was to kill me for this rejection of islam, so I felt a great weight off my shoulders, and I shook the dust off my feet and have moved on. Funny how we proceed, giving them all the benefit of the doubt, but if we were to tell them we would never convert, even with a sword at our necks, would they still want to be our "friend?"
The koran only allows them to engage us for the purpose of converting us...they are NOT to make friends with the infidels. So I kissed that email list goodbye, now wiser.
#116comment # 113 It is very amanzing that every one reply me with rhetoric. There are one billion muslim who would just go to hell because they follow different religion then ours. How about Jews who even do not accept our believe. They do not believe that God could even have a son but they are our friends. We help them to have state but do want to have consitution for their state so they dont have to define there borders. How if UN decide that in middle of US Mexcian could have a Country should we except it. I do not think so, you would not like, right!. We are the largest producer of Arms (killing Machine) in the world killing millions but we call other terrosit. We went into a country claiming that are producing WMD but instate have killed more than half a million people through CIA
"We will keep you engage, We will make you fight against each other, we will smoke you out" President Bush
We have killed thousand of Red Indian, Black, Japanese, Vitamese, Korean, Nicaraguan,
We have killed millions of Jews through Catlohic Church. Last year Enevangilican Church spent more than 25 million dollare to convert Jews to christainity through their programe Juses for Jew. Yes and we dare call other people terrosite just because they are trying to safe them self From our white supreme race.
Yes when Quran is translated the problem of deduction is alway their but it is so also in bible. Arabic bible also contain word Jihad and does not have word love in it so does it make us; christain a Jihadi.
Christain terroriste blow up Madrid airport last Sunday and Spain PM stop negotiate with them. Oh sorry the news was not carried by US Media Ha read in BBC.com.uk
And sorry thier are more suicide bomber killing themself in sri lanka than in palestine Oh! sorry again news is never carried by US media (Western Media).
Just by calling some one bad does not make them bad. Remember you call them name, and they do have the right to do the some. If you say that their son of God Muhammad is not a nice person they have the some right to say the thing of Jesus. And I sure we do not want them to curse Jesus which I trust they never do. We make them understand with love thats what Jesus would have done. Hatered would bring more hatered and love would bring more love.
#117Ms Julie Winter would you please explaing this
I would like to sell you six million Jew in USA
Frankling Roosevelt while meeting stalin in Yalta
#118why don't you cite your source for such a statement?
#119Shahid...your English is so bad, I do not believe you live in the US. I asked you where you DO live, but you ignore whatever you don't want to answer. There is no such concept of jihad in the Bible...never were Jews or Christians commanded to kill off those who did not convert to Judaism or Christianity.
Jews were given the Promised Land BY GOD and it is an eternal gift, since God DOES NOT REVOKE HIS GIFTS AND PROMISES. Yes, God wanted those evil people, the Canaanites killed......but that was not jihad. Watch your mouth because now you are beginning to criticize the God of Israel, and I WILL STAND UP FOR HIM. HIS EDICTS ARE RIGHT AND JUST, as He Is The Judge of all. Don't try to equate allah with the God of Israel, i.e., the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Your mouth will hang you if you mock Him.
The God of Israel does NOT change His Mind, as His Mind is GOOD, RIGHT AND TRUE....there is no hint of evil in Him....but allah apparently changes his mind on every single subject, nullifying his previous word to muhammad, and then nullifying that word, ad infinitum, as the koran takes both sides of every issue. This alone makes it impossible for a muslim to think clearly.
I thank God that He knew I would be the worst of sinners had I not been born in a country where I could find the Truth about Him....I would have willingly blown myself up for the sake of allah, and I am doing my best to reach out and pull from the flames of hell those that are headed that way. The question is DO THEY WANT TO BE SAVED?
Shahid you are not an American, so quit saying "we did this" or "We did that." Your take on things is so islamoradical, and your cover has been blown by your own statements. Keep up the fight in Iraq...we will find you one day.
#120I would like to sell you six million Jew in USA
Frankling Roosevelt while meeting stalin in Yalta
Shahid, No one has addressed this because it is not a statement made by President Roosevelt. It is propaganda and unworthy to be mentioned here.
#121o unworthy self-appointed Imam Shahid,
Your style of argument reminds me of the 4 year old child who always feels slighted when the parent gives something to another one of the children.....it is a pity you were not born a woman in islam, so your character could learn to take twenty-eighth place all the time. In other words, you must be at the center of attention, controlling the conversation, or nothing can proceed.
You constantly turn people's statements around, ignoring the valid points they make, and whether true or not, you say, "So, it is in the Bible, too. So, it is the same with Christians....etc." You are a master manipulator who has no interest in honesty.
As I said before, I am going to opt out of this whining type of discussion. You are just like the few hundred other muslims on the Internet who are there to screw up the discussions for the rest of us. Your sole deisre seems to have us focus on your topics rather than the original one. The original topic in this blog was UNASSIMILATED MUSLIMS..which obviously you are.......UNASSIMILATED.
You actually should have nothing to say about it, since
you are being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
Truly, I am sick and tired of listening to the same old same old muslim mantras.....the discussions never elevate to real solutions....because the muslim warrior/victim gets in there and corrupts the proper flow of ideas, portraying all muslims as victims. I refute your intent at getting our eyes off the real issue of unassimilated muslims.
Your continuing whiny posts only create more hostility against muslims, since you do not answer legitimate questions, and your mind is as shut as a locked door. I personally will not walk through that door to find you.
#122Amen.
#123So that which we do not like becomes proganda and unworthy
I have alwasy quoted my source but only thing you rely is on rhetoric. My english may be bad but you do understand it right.
Let see what Jews' God promis them.
Rabbi Ben Zion Halberstam of Bobov
“For behold in our times there have arisen irresponsible men, who throw of the yoke of Torah and mitzvos and conice the Jewish pople to be like all the nations, to build themselves and independent government, and they pretend that this is the ultimate redemption. But it is ovvious and know the they speak falsely, and that their way is the complete antithesis of the Torah… see the Targum on Shir Hashirim 8:4. ‘The King Moshiach will say , I adjure you, my people, house of Isreael, why do you fight with the people of the land, to leave exile? Wait a little more and the master of the world will recall the love of the righteous ones and it will be his will to redeem you’ and this is based on the Gemora in Kesubos (111a) That Hakodosh Baruch Hu made the Jewish people swear not to force the end.”
I have quoted by source from Torah and also quoted Rabbi who have given Fatwa in the matter I have several time offered that call any Rabbi and ask him what I have written and see if he agree with me or not. Yes Jew have been promised land but thier god would himself come and take them to the promised Land
Talk to any Arab Christain ask him if their is word Jihad in Arabic Holy Bible.
You cherry pick my writing and answer does that suite you I think thats not right.
Their are thousand of christain and Jew who think Zionist are not doing the right thing and one of them is a Christain Mayor of Bethlehem who is minister in Hamas Government. 90% of Christain voted for Hamas in Bethlehem becaurs they though Fatah was to close to Zoinist.
And Please comment on Christain Terrorist blowing up Madrid Airport.
And no body addrese it because it is truth.
I would like to sell you six million Jew in USA
Frankling Roosevelt while meeting stalin in Yalta
Wait I will shock you with another stroy of WWII (actually it should be call Christain War II) Get ready.
Do you know Tariq Aziz foriegn Minister under Saddam Hussain is Christain and refused to say single word against Saddam Hussain. The Point I am trying to make is do not think that all christain and All Jew agree with us.
And yes you are right I am not Black.
#124On one side you say I am four year old and then you call me master Manipulator which one should I believe in. Actually I feel that you would agree with me if I right some thing bad about muslim, and trust me I can write better than you. let see Do you know muslim worshipe stone? I guess you do not know. Just ask me I will write bad about muslim better than you all.
#125your comments again show exactly what I said...no matter what the topic YOU must make YOURSELF the center of attention. I did find out who you are simply by going to Gogle and I sent you this info by email, for you to take care of erasing it online, in case you do not want everyone to know who you are. What sort of English classes do they have at the University in Cordova anyway? I guess a major in Islamic studies does not require English fluency.
No one wants to hear you support islam or hear you write poorly about it. Frankly, all we care about is that you learn our values OF HONESTY, Truth, hard work, participation in paying taxes, and furthering the freedoms we have both here and around the world.
THAT IS ASSIMILATION, not jivving around on the Internet.
#126Actually, I found everything I ever wanted to know about Shahid Kinnare, from Tennessee by going into Google.
#127comment # 125 thank you for your comment I really appreciate.
#128Shahid,
You are correct that there are a thousand Christians and Jews who do not support Zionism. This, out of hundreds of millions who do support Israel.
You have cited two rebbes who have followers, have written books and pamphlets etc., but who have been rejected by 99.07% of Jewry worldwide. Their sects refuse to assimilate into American society despite all the protection and privileges they have been given by citizenship. They live totally apart from their neighbors; I'm from New York City and know these people.
Did you know there are people with the Flat Earth Society who believe the earth is flat - even when confronted with photos and proof! They cling to their translation and interpretation of scripture in The Holy Bible. Shall we use them to represent valid scriptual interpretation when it is evident that the world is round?
You keep throwing out this provocative quote attributed to FDR for which you give no proof - and for good reason -there isn't any source because it never was said! Anyone who has studied WWII and the dynamics of Franklin Roosevelt and 'Uncle Joe' would tell you such a statement is ludacris! Pleas read: Saving the Jews as testament of Roosevelt's efforts on behalf of the Jews.
You inform us that Tariq Assiz is a Christian (he was brought up a Roman Catholic as most of us know), however, by becoming one of Saddam's henchmen, he cannot be termed a practicing Christian because when he started to serve Saddam, he ceased to serve God. And it would be impossible for him to justify his actions through the Gospels or as a Christian; anything he did was separate from the Church rather than as a result of it.
The Madrid airport bombimg was the result of the Basque separatist group ETA, and is a complex political problem. These terrorists trnd to be Socialists and Anarchists, not Christian.
World War II was NOT a 'Christian War'. It was started by the axis powers that were headed by Nazis, Fascists, Socialists/Communists, and Imperialists who either rejected all religion or Shinto was the state religion of Japan. The formwr Soviet Union had been part of this Axis before being betrayed by Hitler and was a socialist/Communist state which also rejected religion. Because of these G-dless miscreants, over 60 million died during WWII and 20+ million more in the former Soviet Union during Stalin's purges. None of these leaders and their agendas cared about the sanctity of human life or the concept of freedom , just personal glory and power. There was nothing Christian about any of this.
I pray that you are a better jeweler than historian.
You have tried my patience and taken up too much of my time with your nonsense. I can no longer deal with your trashy history and agenda.
Time for all of us to move on.
#129Any one we do not like he is not Christain. Easy way out.
Great, I agree with you.
#130shahid, Hitler's excuse was protection and expansion of the Aryan race, this was racial not religious. France and England declared war because Hitler attacked Poland to regain land that was lost to Germany in WWI, at no time time did any leader say this was Catholic vs Protestant or any other christian denomination vs any other denomination. How bizarre that you should suggest as much, what are the sources for such conspiracy theories? I have never heard such theories, even from Muslim's! Wow you really don't know much about anything do you!
#131shahid, that doesn't mean that christians didn't have religious wars. The Crimean War was a religious war. But in World War 2 the Germans, Italians, French and Polish were all Catholic. I don't want argue with you ad hominem (Troll) but you display great ignorance about world events. You should really understand basic history before posting on this forum.
#132Shahid...your MO is running people away by being a stubborn pig-headed islamist......you obviously need harsh, direct, and cut-to-the-core words, and so you will get them from me.
Your style (MO) is to blast into a discussion, make inflammatory and accusatory statements, support NONE of them, change the subject whenever convenient to YOUR purpose of destroying communication between intelligent non-muslims.
You get satisfaction when you can frustrate the kind-hearted and the generous with their time and energy, but NOT me....I have BOTH TIME AND ENERGY, but I am going to decide how and where those are directed for your benefit.
This is NOT your discussion board, and your voice is a small blip against the great symphony of those who love freedom, TRUTH, HONESTY, and life itself. Your small blip is determined to become a loud ringing in our ears, a string plucked that gives dissonance and disharmony to those around you. YOUR desire for superiority, and your PRIDE IS YOUR DOWNFALL... There is almost a sexual component to this....you blast in with a huge stick (a sword??) to beat all the infidels over the head, and you feel so macho for doing it.
It is ironic that you all love to say peace be upon you...God's Peace IS upon us, but YOU LACK ANY HINT OF PEACE.
This is islam: destroy rather than build, annoy rather than produce, antagonize rather than think profoundly about anything. In fact, questioning and reflecting is DISCOURAGED in islam, since only SUBMISSION HAS VALUE. allah cannot be apprehended or understood, and if the muslim questions, he may fall away.....so JUST SUBMIT. Well, we refuse to submit to you.
Let me tell you what a real man is....
I have a happy marriage, and am blessed beyond what I deserve. My husband and I never argue or fight....but the first two years when he was a muslim, we fought every day...it was miserable. He was not happy with anything....if the food were delicious, he would grumble. If the house were clean, he would ignore that. I was the object of his hatred of all things American and female.
I saw the misery of the islamic mind. I saw the 180 degree change in him in an instant when he accepted Jesus Christ. He never permitted me to say one word about "my religion." But he secretly got up at night and read the Bible and studied for himself when I had no idea he was doing it. He says I was an example of forgiveness and of Jesus to him....though I did not have a clue.
He became a better person and a better husband than I ever could have imagined. He never complains, and never fails to forgive me. He discovered the strength(not weakness) in allowing others room and space to breathe. He lets others have their way with him, and though some have taken advantage over the years, he leaves it all to God to judge them. I have seen him be wronged in huge matters, and still, he can let it go by the Grace of God.
He has become a very successful man, and I no longer have to work. I am happy beyond what I merited in this life. And he seeks every day in every moment to let other muslims know the source of his joy and strength.
He is more patriotic than you, Shahid. This country was the first one to give him citizenship...saddam only sought his life and killed his people for decades....denying them any rest, any citizenship, any hope. It is here in the USA that he came to Christ when a loving Christian dentist prayed with him. We will celebrate 14 years of marriage in the next six weeks, but believe me, we celebrate it every day.
Shahid, I know you are miserable. It shows in every complaint you register online. This is not the only place you come and dump your aggravation. You bother the people on Daniel Pipe's forum, and many others. Your misery is such that the lava flow of your anger seeks to burn everyone in your path. Even if you could burn all of us, you would not be happier, you would be even more miserable.
Get down on your knees one day soon, please, and ask God to show you The Truth. The real God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, says, Test Me and I will prove Myself to you, that I AM.
He will not overlook one little sheep that asks Him for guidance into all Truth.I will pray for you for forty days, and sometime in this next 40 days, between Jan. 2 and February 11th, I know that if you get down on your knees and ask the Lord to direct you to Him, HE WILL....HIS NAME is not allah.
I would like to meet you back here when that happens.
#133I found this rather interesting:
German court upholds ban on head scarves Mon Jan 15, 8:38 PM ET
#134This is a really good link, A.M. Thanks for alerting us to this important story. I'll post a new article about it.
#135i'm sick and tired of tolerating intolerance. if people immigrate to my country and don't like how my country does things, then they can do two things: accept it and integrate or #### the hell off. leave your goddamned religious problems in the ######### where you came from. if you bring your war to my homeland, i'll see you in the streets #############.
#136Dear Johnny,
Please refrain from using foul language. It is offensive and counter productive to the content and spirit of this blog.
Thanks
#137A.M., I've posted a new article about the info you posted about in #133. Thanks for posting this great info!
#138i'm glad i found this blog.I just finished reading Londonistan. Very scary....I hope the US opens its eyes to this Islamofascism...ASAP
#139Welcome to the site, Rich. Please feel free to post comments with any relevant observations you come up with.
#140Hi Vik , in response to your post # 47
All they have to do is march, make speeches, and have rallies proclaiming loudly that anyone who blows up a restaurant, bus, plane, etc., in the name of Islam, is lost to Islam and is no longer a good Muslim.
Wel count me in , I will be the first one to do it. Definately.
I was just looking in one of ur posts, so thought I would add a comment...
#141Part I
Zumer,
Peace be unto you,
Thank you for your thoughtful correspondence.
Retaliation is the whole point!
It is what separates us and makes it improbable to have any peace between us.
Please accept that my answer is from my Christian and American perspective:
There are many readers of this Blog who are Jewish, Agnostic, or of other faiths and would strongly dispute the following, but I am not commissioned to punish them for their thoughts, deeds, insults, or jokes concerning Jesus and/or Christianity.
Firstly, and foremost, Jesus is the Son of God. He is part of the Holy Trinity. (Although I’m not fond of Wikipedia as a reference, this is a good explanation of a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp.)
A Christian is someone who follows the words of Jesus and believes Him to be the Messiah. We all strive to be saints.
Here are the major passages that define Christian conduct in the face of insults, lawsuits, and other adversity. Since you were kind enough to furnish quotes from the Quran, I have done the same form the New Testament:
The Holy Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to St. Matthew and St.. Luke. Glory to thee, O Lord:
Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Luke 6:28-31
“But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,”
“Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”
The Gospel of the Lord. Praise to be to thee, O Christ.
For a concise explanation of these may I refer you to: Christian Non-Violence by Walter Winks.
Therefore, in the face of any insults, we’re really supposed to walk away rather than retaliate.
Insults are normally the result of envy and ignorance; it is unseemly to even acknowlege them. We put the burden on Jesus and pray for our transgressors. that is the correct christian reponse.
Were those cartoons depicting Jesus, Christians would have complained, and cease to buy that paper. Most of us would have totally ignored it and the matter would have been forgotten.
G-d will take care of transgressors and transgressions as He sees fit.
Revenge and retaliation are Old Testament concepts which were nullified by Jesus.
Until we can dispense with retaliation and emnity against non-Muslims, it is unlikely that there will be any peace or progress.
#142Part II
Zumer,
Peace Be Unto You.
But violence and retaliation is deep seeded in the conduct of Mohammad during his lifetime.
Let’s discuss the life of Jesus as opposed to Mohammad’s.
Christians do not separate the New Testament and the life of Jesus; they are one and inseparable.
We do not have a complex code of law that dictates mundane tasks, food, or punishments. Jesus simplified the Law. He reduced the Ten Commandments to two and added one of his own:
The Holy Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to St. Matthew and St. John. Glory to thee, O Lord:
Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
The Gospel of the Lord. Praise to be to thee, O Christ.
Jesus brought love, respect, and dignity to the world. It is not a message that is specific to an era or place, but applicable to all ages and places! Christianity can coexist with any culture and most laws of nations.
Throughout His life, Jesus brought about miracles. He never lied nor advocated lying for any reason. He never changed His mind or altered His words. Jesus never used a weapon; there were only two swords amongst the apostles. He never advocated battles or wars. He never headed an army. He never conquered a nation by force. He never advocated theft or pillage. He was against the amassing of riches at the expense of others. He never incited people to kill others. He never used demeaning terms to describe other peoples (all people are His). He taught respect of people despite their faith base or cultural background. He never coerced people to follow him. He never knew a woman intimately and did not marry to have multiple wives; therefore he did not have children (we are all His children) whose descendants are still warring over the succession. He never took advantage of a woman or a child. He did not own slaves. He never fled his persecutors. He submitted himself to be executed. He died forgiving his executioners and bringing two sinners into the Kingdom.
He asks us repeatedly to love our enemies.
None of this can be said for Mohammad. All of my Muslim acquaintances keep making excuses for Mohammed’s behavior with a, “But you have to understand the times in which he lived and the Quran was written…”.
No such excuse is made for Jesus. (Roman society was brutal towards Jews and Christians.)
Who indeed, is the more peaceful and merciful?
And Heaven in Christianity is not a place of worldly delights. It is a place where such ‘delights’ are meaningless. There are no silk sofas and subservient virgins. It is not for our pleasure, but for eternal peace and to be one with G-d.
Only Satan paints the hereafter as a pleasure palace; Christians call that Hell.
Heaven, as I have pointed out in a previous post, is not a sure thing or for sale at any cost. We all strive to be saints, but it is only through G-d’s grace that we enter His Kingdom.
But we are sure that murder is not a key to any room in G-d’s mansion.
#143Part I
A.M. Whittaker
Thank u very much for ur comments...
First of all, I want to say that we Muslims believe Jesus as a prophet of Allah (God), and he had no father. His mother was a virgin Marry. He was not crucified. He was taken to the heavens and he will return near the end of times, and a muslim leader Imam Mahdi will lead him in prayer. Jesus will kill the anti-christ (we call him Dajjal).
This was to clarify Jesus status in Islam.
That's it.
Now if u allow me to reply...
Jesus brought love, respect, and dignity to the world.
So did Muhammad. Muhammad pbuh brought love, respect and dignitiy to the world, as well.
Before he came, the arabs were living in a horrible position, they used to kill their own daughters at the time of their birth, they use to have war on a pitty matters, they use to worship idols.
When Muhammad came, he gave the status to the women, she could never imagined.
Do u know that Heaven is placed in the foot of a mother. What I mean to say is that if u respect ur mother only then u will get paradise otherwise not.
Now, i give a simple example. If a girl is born , it is thought to be a mercy of Allah for that family.
when that baby girl gets older, her level of respect increases, as she is respected by her brother (if she have one).
and when she becomes adult, the whole society respects her, in terms like every muslim male adults must lower their gaze when they saw her, and she is their sister (in islam).
when she gets married, she does not becomes the property of her husband. She continues to have her father's name attached to her first name.
and during the ceremony of marriage she is the first one to be asked wether she accepts the person as her husband or not. and not only that, she can get divorce from her husband whenever she wants.
and when she becomes a mother, her status is raised to such a level that paradise is present for her child if her child respects her.
#144Part 2
It is not a message that is specific to an era or place, but applicable to all ages and places! Christianity can coexist with any culture and most laws of nations.
Well to be very honest, islam is not specific to an area or a specific frame of time as well.
well infact, according to islamic teachings God will only accept Islam as the Dean (way of life). and Muhammad pbuh was sent for the whole mankind.
Throughout His life, Jesus brought about miracles. He never lied nor advocated lying for any reason. He never changed His mind or altered His words.
WEll friend we muslims believe in that, and Prophet Muhammad pbuh also did the miracles, and biggest miracle of Muhammad is the Holy Quran.
Find any flaw in it, find any contradictions in it, u will not be able to find.
It is still present in the same laguage Arabic as when it was realed, and muslims recite it in the same arabic language even though he is arab or not. but in case of bible, But there are many versions of Bible. There are many contradictions within a bible. Do u know in which language it was revealed, (I know it might be aremic or some thing). But definately not english.
Jesus never lied, I have no problem with that, as I believe he was prophet, but do u know the character of Muhammad pbuh. He was known to be AS-Sadiq (meaning the person who speaks nothing but truth, trust worthy) even before his period of his prophethood.
People used to place their belongings with Prophet Muhammad, not only that after his declaration of his Prophethood, even then , his enemies would used to respect his honesty and used to place their belongings with him as security.
#145Part 3,
He married, yes indeed, there is no doubt about it. At his time men use to marry many women, but he came and regularized the marriage system and set the maximum limit of 4 wifes at a time and not more than that. and not only that we muslims are only allowed to marry more than one wife if we are able to treat them equally, but if not then one is enough. In the holy Quran it is written.
Slaves were common in those days for all nations and tribes. It was Islam that encouraged freeing of the slaves and the great reward from Allah for those who did so. Prophet, peace be upon him, gave the example of this by freeing slaves and encouraging all of his followers to do the same. Examples include his own servant (who was actually considered like a son to him) Zaid ibn Al Haritha and Bilal the slave who was bought by Abu Bakr only for the purpose of freeing him.
Cursing and invoking evil actually came to the prophet, peace be upon him, from his enemies, while he would be praying for their guidance. Classic example is that of his journey to At-Taif where the leaders would not even hear him out nor offer so much as the normal courtesy called for and instead they set the children of the street against him, throwing rocks and stones at him until his body was bleeding so much, blood filled his sandals. He was offered revenge by the angel Gabriel, if he would give the command, Allah would cause the surrounding mountains to fall down upon them destroying them all. Instead of cursing them or asking for their destruction, he prayed for them to be guided to worship their Lord alone, without any partners.
#146Muhammad, peace be upon him, ordered men not to "inherit women against their will," and not to marry them accept by mutual consent and never to touch their wealth or inheritance in order to improve their own financial conditions.
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good. [Holy Quran 4:19]
We also notice from this verse, He forbid the common practice of wife-beating and abuse, (his own wife said he never once hit her).
He never once engaged in sex outside of marriage, nor did he ever approve of it, even though it was very common at the time. His only relationships with women were in legitimate, contractual marriages with proper witnesses according to law. His relationship to Ayesha was only that of marriage. He did not marry her the first time her father offered her hand to him in marriage. His first marriage was with Kahadija (widow)at the age of 25 when she was 40. He did not married twice throughout her life. His relationship with Aisha was a truly love marriage. He married her only after she reached the age of puberty and could decide for herself. Their relationship is described in every detail by Ayesha herself in the most loving and respectful manner as a match truly made in heaven. Ayesha is considered as one of the highest scholars of Islam and lived out her entire life only having been married to Muhammad, peace be upon him. She never desired any other man, nor did she ever utter a single negative statement against Muhammad, peace be upon him.
#147Part 5
Muhammad, peace be upon him, ordered men to "provide and protect" women, whether it was their own mother, sister, wife or daughter or even those of others, whether they were Muslims or not.
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support the women) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.).
As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, startle them (set forth a clear example or parable for them, to make clear the point of what is going on before divorcing them) so if they return to proper obedience (to Allah and their husbands), do not annoy them any further. Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great." [Holy Quran 4:34]
http://muhammada2z.com/
He prophesied, predicted and foretold of events to come and they happened just as he had said they would. He mentioned so many things that people of his time could not have known, yet we have seen the evidences manifest over and over throughout the centuries in science, medicine, biology, embryology, psychology, metrology, geology and many other disciplines and even space travel and wireless communications, all of which we take for granted today. He even predicted something from the past that would come true in the future, and it has..
The Quran states pharaoh was drowned in the Red Sea while chasing after Moses and Allah said He would preserve Pharaoh as a sign for the future. Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book, "Bible, Quran and Science" makes it clear this has happened and the very person of Pharaoh has been discovered in Egypt and is now on display for all to see.
This event took place thousands of years before Muhammad, peace be upon him, and it came true in the last few decades, many centuries after his death.
and one of the prophecis is that women will be more in number than men.
near the end of time for each man, there will be 50 women, this would be the ratio.
#148Part 6
and last but not least, about Suicide, It is forbidden to commit Suicide. It is said that if a person commits Suicide then he would do this act again and again in the hell fire.
and about putting ur burdon on Jesus. It means if u r christian, then what ever u do, u will not be asked about it , but rather jesus will beresponsible for your deads, and for u paradise is for sure. BUT BUT BUT....
Well, in islam this is not like that, no one is responsible for the deads of other people. I am responsible for my deads only. I cannot put the burden of my deads on other person.
and infact in Islam, Paradise is not a easy thing to achieve. Becoming muslim by islamic creed, u must practice islam, and do not hurt other, and abide by the rules. If ur bad deads are more than good deads, then u place is hell.
In islam Allah can forgive any sin he want but he will not forgive Shirk (praying others besides Him.)
and one last example. Suppose if i have caused u any harm. for example i have broken ur leg or some thing like that, then Allah will not firgive me unless u forgive me. So, I will go to hell till the punishment i get is equal to the harm i have saused u. (this is a very basic example, I hope u will understand it. I have said it in a very siple words.)
#149A.M., I'm sure you were trying to communicate to Zumer the beauty of the Judeo-Christian culture. But I have a feeling what he took away was, "We can kill these people and burn their buildings all we want..." (actions which Zumer has supported in this thread), "and they won't do anything about it." Is that what you meant to communicate to Zumer?
Americans have the right to bear arms, and if Muslims tried to burn cars every night here like they've been doing in France, a lot of them would be likely to get shot.
#150Americans have the right to bear arms, and if Muslims tried to burn cars every night here
I think u r saying that Muslims can retaliate even by taking law into theri hands. No, muslim cannot take law in theri hands, muslims r not supposed to break the law.
if someone harms muslims then we muslms are supposed to contact the authority. and let the authority / police do their job.
that's it.
#151Part 7
Dear A.M. Whittaker,
you have to look at this link, its about a priest, who met a muslim, and they had a dialogue.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/Yusuf_story.htm
waiting for ur reply ,
#152Part 8,
u guys have t ocheck this video, actually there are 4 parts. just giving the link of first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiMm8YWE_o
its about a person whos name is Abdul Raheem Green.
#153I think u r saying that Muslims can retaliate even by taking law into theri hands. No, muslim cannot take law in theri hands, muslims r not supposed to break the law.
if someone harms muslims then we muslms are supposed to contact the authority. and let the authority / police do their job.
You supported the opposite view in this thread, repeatedly expressing your support for Muslims who kill and burn buildings in the name of their religion.
It makes all your descriptions of Islam in this thread as being so nice and wonderful, look like a sham.
#154u talked about shame, this time u really pissed me off!!
isnt it shame for u to hide your faith, when some one asks, in order not to get caught because of contradictions in your bible (if u r christian) or in old testament (if u r a jew).
I asked about ur faith, wether u r christian or jew or an atheist.. but u refused. Now, that is a shame!!
U christians talk about science, and technology, but in reality, science and bible goes in opposite direction. Thanks to ur reforming (changing) your book, the bible.
Shame on u, as u christians have to belief on your faith even without thinking about it. God is one and three at the same time.
Just tell me, how an engineer can get it ,like 1 is equal to 3. So, an (christian) engineer cannot convince himself about his own christian belief, but if he forces himself, then he is having a blind faith. That's why u see that most athiest who happens to be scientists were previously christians. Because they just can't get it, what is written in the new testament.
and then in 60 or 70's u get what, sex revolution, where u broke all the boundries of marriage. In the bible it is prohibited to do adultry. and u guys are doing adultry.
Priests who prefer to be virgin, (that is against human nature), do commit much graver sins as u might have heard of scandels in the church. Shame on you.
and then came even more progress, himosexuality, oh great.
And because of homosexuality, and having illigitimate sex out of wedlock, u got a wonderful present, AIDS.
and this disease is nothing but a punishment from Allah. wether u like it or not.
Now talk about Alcohol, u guys drink, and drink a lot to th point that u get drunk. adn u brain stops working.
Now, vik, if u really are interested in seeking the truth, well, I have told u, just look at it.
and for i will give the tip, just look at the prophecies told in islam.
read them, and u will see them passing your own very eyes!! exactly as subscribed, word by word.!!
well, the only thing for me to say is that
" I testify that there is not God worthy of worship but Allah alone and I testify that Muhammad is the last of messengers and prophet of Allah."
and I hav told u and thats it..
Good bye and good luck.
#155Oh, so you support killing people and burning buildings in the name of Islam, and now you're saying how "pissed off" you are. For many who practice Islam, this is its true face - anger, threats, and more anger and more threats. All the happy nice wonderful things you described it as, in your posts above, are a smokescreen, meant to hide the anger and the threats that, at least as you present it, are at the heart of it.
And no wonder. Look at what's at the bottom of your view of your faith - quoting you: “ I testify that there is not God worthy of worship but Allah alone and I testify that Muhammad is the last of messengers and prophet of Allah.” That is a denial of the righteousness of other people's religions. No other religion has as its basis an attack on the religions of others. It keeps far too many Muslims in a constant state of anger and of making threats against those of other religions.
Zumer, walk away from your anger, and find a better life.
#156Is there anyone who has something about the following article:
Minister of Methodist Church, degree in divinity, author of many publications - choses ISLAM?
http://www.islamnewsroom.com/content/view/16/52/
#157Islam is not only like a cancer, it's a killing cancer, as non muslim people in the west give muslims the total freedom to live and speak about the good false view of islam to trick people to convert to islam without knowing what they are doing as most of them are far from their original and new religions, non muslims in muslim countries are forced to live in muslim rules, here bad talking about them in the streets and using mics.
for any one who converts from islam they say he/she must be killed as it's one rule of islams rules
islamic rules and instructions through quran or whatever are full of hatred and instructions to kill non muslims with or without reasons, deal with them like animals and slaves as well as trying to convert them using force if it's available, and when it's not available for them till now in the west they are trying to convert them using other ways full of tricks and lies
regarding if islam is wrong or right, i think no god can disagree with himself in more than half of his book (quran) that's what is called nasekh and mansoukh, this is one of the many many issues that muslims are trying to hide and fool others before they fool them selves
Islam since it's start aims control people that's the approach which Mohammed started and appears cross history
Islam is all the long againest all what is good in any way including arts, technology etc.. though they use them in fooling people specially media means
GOD save the world from the death of Islam
#158What about all those "Cristian" priests that molest young boys and girls. sick bastards.
Its not the religion that you follow, its your own morals that matter!
It is religion that divides us
but it is faith that unites us
~
DJDEEJ
#159djdeej, there's a very big difference. Those priests are acting against the teachings of Christianity. The terrorists state that they are acting in accordance with the teachings of Islam.
#160i hope they dont impose to make lebanon follow under sharia law
#161djdeej
#162Wow.....what a waste of time readig this was. There are too many close minded people in this world that think that islam is what some people do. Islam is the most beautiful and peace loving religion there is or was or will be. Your ignorance makes you blind to the truth.
*Peace*
Sharia culture is a perfect cancer on Judeo-Christian culture
CULTURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELGION> THEY ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS__>>TRY TO GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD. and as for caner, lolz, haahahaha>>isn't any religion cancer to another religion??? o.O o_O ??
#163#162, do you agree that any Muslim who blows up a bus, train, plane, or restaurant, does not go to paradise?
#164When will people understand that the fundamentals of all three religions are the same! The details vary from religion to religion but the fundamentals are the same! Why can't we just accept that there are truths in every religion and that you can learn something from each of them. Forget being a Christian, forget being Muslim, forget being Jewish (the religion) and forget being Buddist. USE THEM ALL TO BETTER YOUR LIFE!!
If everyone felt this way, religious wars would never be fought.
#165people think that Lebanon is a MINI iran, becoz of hassan nasrallah lmaoo.
its not
#166shahid, Hitler’s excuse was protection and expansion of the Aryan race, this was racial not religious. France and England declared war because Hitler attacked Poland to regain land that was lost to Germany in WWI, at no time time did any leader say this was Catholic vs Protestant or any other christian denomination vs any other denomination. How bizarre that you should suggest as much, what are the sources for such conspiracy theories? I have never heard such theories, even from Muslim’s! Wow you really don’t know much about anything do you!
#167Lets clarify one thing - Freedom of speech is just that. DON'T tell me that insulting someone's opinions, religion, personal hygiene or the lame car they drive is NOT part of freedom of speech. The First Amendment is clear. IF peace loving Muslims do not want to live where anyone can express THEIR OPINION, ANYTIME, they should move to a culture/country where they will not be offended. DON'T tell me how to speak. DON'T tell me how to think. From the American Revolution - DON'T Tread on Me. We can be friends and neighbors by following this country's rules.
I apply these rules to all religions and all cultural groups.
#168Peace on you brother
I beg to differ and i would like to bring to your attention the following, and in no way, or manner do i mean to offend you
The Lords Rebel Army (uganda)
what about Nazi germany (hitler was a devout Christian)
I am not Criticizing Christians but then again ..
what about the Christian Doctrine
numbers 31:17-18
Deuteronomy 20:13-20
Samuel 15:1-4
(now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have ,and spare them not , but slay both man and woman, infant ans suckling, Ox and Sheep , camel and ass)
Psalms 137:1-9
Hosea2:1-4
HOSEA 13:16
Ezekiel 23:45:48
Chronicles 15:13
Kings 9:7-9
Revelation 2:22-23
you can check it out at http://www.biblegateway.com
or other bible websites
Now tell me thats not Indiscriminate Killing and a doctrine within the bible??
but this does not mean that all christians are evil .. right?? they are not many of my best friends are christians.. they dont even know that this exists in the bible
yes there are christian fundamentalists as well as there are muslim fundamentalists
like there was a red mosque in pakistan there was David Quresh in USA ...
But the Majority is not extrmist.. ../../../../images/smileys/smile.gif .. and the majory must not creat a sterotype .. a sterotypical idea is what lead to the holocaust.. not all jews are bad not all christians are bad not all muslims are bad…
yet among them not all of them are innocient ..
#169To Anonymous:
Hitler was NOT a devout Christian; he despised mainstream religion and tried to surplant it with his own version for the New Order which was based on hubris, astrology, and Nordic mythology.
The books of the Holy Bilble you quoted are from the Old Testament, not the New Testament. Christians primarily follow the words and deeds of Jesus and his Apostles, which are contained in the New Testament. You might want to read them directly; start with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as well as Acts.
Here are some examples of what Christians ought to follow:
Matthew 22:36-40
John 13:34
Matthew 5:1-48
John 8:2-11
Luke 10:25-37
1 Peter 2:1-25
2 Timothy 2:24-26
Matthew 10: 14-16
#170Islam was a facade used by the evil Mohammad in his pursuit of worldly pleasures. This cult today is misrepresented as a religion.
#171Im replying after a long time.. ive been busy with some work now comming back to these posts
my purpose here was not to start a fight neither was it to disrespect any religion .. as most people have a habit of doing so .. and as a Muslim i am bound by Islamic law to respect both the True Religions, Christianity and Judaism (Although misinterpreted or changed text) ...
and i am bound by Islamic Law to respect the Prophets .. Jesus peace and blessings of God be upon his .. and Moses Peacea and blessings of God be upon him, .. and all the other Prophets of Isreal and those God sent to other nations that we donot know of.
The point i was trying to make is ...
that the same way others Qoute from Diffrent Portions of Quran or Ahadith and show a false Interpritation of Islam making it look like a fasciet religion, the similar could be applied to all other religions, by taking words and verses out of context ..
Funny that you Quote from the Bible.... and specially Luke... where in the last paragraphs Jesus asks his Desciples to Cary a Sword and who has none must sell his cloak and get one.. most Scholors agree that this Sword is that of Faith and words..
yet the very same night when the Pharsees and the Romans come to Capture Jesus .. one of the desciple asks jesus "should i attack him" .. and he does and cuts of one of the guards ears.. that jesus peace be upon him by a True Miracle heals..
now i can qoute this and say jesus said "Carry a sword" thus promoting voilance..
Do onto others as you wish other to do onto you...
if im not mistaken .. thats the correct concept. but the words might not be exact
#172as for the judeo Christian Co-alition against their Comman Enemy ... us the muslims...
what say you jews of jesus ...
a true Prophet for the God of Isreal ?
or Son of God
or be it Gos himself????
i'll give you the islamic Answer...
a True Prophet..one of the mightiest that God has ever sent of the ranks of Moses and Abraham and Mohammed.
Born of Virgin birth with no male intervention of any kind... his mother a pious woman .. for God wished him to be born ... and he was there in his mother's womb
Innocent of nature .. loving and Kind... and kind to his mother... worship Lord God the True God one and Alone and called others for His Worship ...
still Alive and with his God, THe God of Moses, Abraham, Elisa, Issac , Mohammed and all of Humanity
the best of the people... ... and if he were here .. all muslims would all but happily die for him .. rather the muslims are awaiting his return to follow him upon his return
so rejioce Those who call themselves.. of Christ..(the Christians) .. and the muslims ..... near is his Second Comming and with that comes the meeting with God of all of humanity and Bliss in the Kingdom of God
so what say you of Jesus the Son of Mary may peace and Blessing of God the Almighty be Upon Him ??
Islam is evil ab initio. It is a tragedy that was not prevented when it was born. It now has become a full-fledged dragon that will not rest until it preys on the civilised world as its thirst for blood has been growing.
#174To anonymous reply # 172:
So why are Christians not allowed to practice or display their faith in public in most Islamic nations? Why are Christians persecuted in these same nations? Why are Christian converts put to death?
Islam's prophet was a highway bandit looting camel caravans carrying silk and other precious commodities. After Allah's revelation this evil man did not change. He was mindless barbarian and megalomaniac. As communism dies in its motherland I hope this barbaric cult wrongly called religion also dies sooner than later.
#176hmm peace be upon you all
I think .. it would be better for you to read some history before commenting ..
CHristians are free and had always been free to practice their religion in all Muslim Countries.
INcluding Saudia Arabia.. the biggest witness to that is the still living Coptic Christians in
Egypt,
Saudia and other muslim countries
and Jews LIving in Yemen ..
apart from just living..
The Place where God spoke to Moses through the burning BUsh .. i wonder if any of you know where it is??
its in Saudia.. in the valley of Tawa. and on that PLace is a Monestery called the MOnestary ..
called the MOnestary of St. Chathrines. that was COnstructed by way back before the Birth of Prophet MOhammed
and is still there and is run by the Christians and is a pilgramage site for many Christians.
and most of you donot know about the Treaty of St. Cathrine.. where the Christians and Jews were Made a peace with
and were allowed to live and practice their religion
under the same treaty when the 2nd caliph of islam conqured Jurasalem he made it a open place of worship for all religions
since the jews going their were persicuted by the Christians and had to flee and many of them lived in Madina
and same happened with spain
jurusalem has a history that you must read.. When Salahudin Ayubi first Attacked Jurusalem the treaty between the King of Jurusalem and Salahudin where
Jurusalem will remain as a Open city where all the three faiths will be allowed and its people free to worship as before the Crusader Invasion
as long as that promise is held Salahudin will not attack the City
#177regarding Comments by .. this about the Life of the Prophet May peace of Allah and blessings be upon him ...
you need to go through the history again .. THe Prophet of Islam was a Sheep Herder yet of the family of one of the nobelest Tribes of Mecca.. just Like Moses May Peace and Blessings of God be Upon him being of Roaylty was a Shepared during his stay in Median
who by the way killed a person and had to flee egypt. (he killed for the right reasons) and after that there came many wars where jews Conqoured many places, and under the COmmand of the next Prophet of Isreal Yashwa Bin Nun may God's Peace and Blessing be Upon Him
It seems that many of the people of the world still are unaware of Islam and think of it what mass media tells them
I Implore you .. read about Islam .. for Correct Books.. Read the Quran where God States
"Killing of one innocent man (muslim or non-muslim) is equal to killing the entire humanity (commiting Genocide)"
and
The Prophet said
"If you go to sleep with a full belly and your neighbour (muslim or non-muslim) is hungry you are not a muslim"
is this not what jesus said
and God says in the Quran
"Of the people on the earth the ones that you will find most similar to you are the christians"
Muslims are not allowed to curse the Prophets be it Moses or Jesus or yashwa bin nun or Elisa or John the Baptist or Jesus the Son of Marry ,anyone who does recives a capital Punishment ..
so much that we are not even allowed to curse the false pagan gods of the polythiests .. for it hurts deep in ones heart when you confront him/her about his/her religion and so it says in the Quran
"When you call others to Islam do it in the most poliet manner, and even still it will hurt them"
#178when Jesus said "Love thy Neighbour as thyself" ..
did he specify that neighbour needs to be Christian or a jew or a muslim or a polytheist.. ??
you have been mislead about the muslims So many thousands of my friends are Christians..
and there are many Churchs here.. all Catholics and protestants so many here..
if you still dont belive me...
Tariq Aziz .. The Minister during the Time of Sadam Hussein in Iraq was Christian
George habash the Leader of PLO (Plestinian Liberation Organization) was a Christian
there is no Discrimination ... this is just a false view that is being Potrayed to you..
and as you are Angered when some foolish muslim calls for the killing of all the Jews and all the christians...
so are muslims angered when you curse the prophets and make fun of them be it anyone of those innocent sinless souls
for some people God might be a Concept .. or something to belive and have faith in ..
for Muslims God is a Reality .. the God one and Alone. is Living and is Watching us even as we discuss on this Forum
seems that many have not learned about islam but have been taught only certain things about it...
"Do not Judge Others for one day you shall be judged.."
I implore all of you once again .. read the Quran ..
and read about the Life of the Prophet.. ... yours and ours ...
of Moses and of Jesus ... and of Mohammed..
come to our countries .. talk to us .. sit with us and know us..
#179(do read what i have written above)
But my Question Still Remains to my Jewish Semetic Brothers. and sisters
What say you of Jesus? The Christ , the Son of Marry Born of Virgin Birth .. the True Messiah..
The Innocent Lamb, The one who Raised People from the Dead and Cured the leapor by Ture Miracles Given to him from God the Al-Mighty ..
He shall Return and fulfill all the Prophecies that were laid down about him in the Old-Testiment .. and Bring Peace to this World..
these are not my words but the words for jesus used in Islam .. and in the Quran .. and in the Sayings of the Prophet...
and so did the Prophet Spoke of David and Yashwa bin nun and moses and Noha and Abraham (Peace be Upon them all) .. would you not like to know why muslims belive in all these Prophets and what The Prophet had to say about them??
#180@#176:
I think .. it would be better for you to read some history before commenting ..
CHristians are free and had always been free to practice their religion in all Muslim Countries.
INcluding Saudia Arabia..
That's not an accurate statement. From the National Post:
Complete freedom of religion for all is strictly protected in Israel -- unlike in neighbouring countries, which recognize only one state religion, Islam, and even criminalize and persecute the practice of other faiths. Consider, for instance, Saudi Arabia, whose police recently arrested 40 Christians for the "crime" of praying in a private house. Followers of the Baha'is religion, who are persecuted in Iran, are welcomed in Israel, and maintain their central religious institutions in Haifa and Acre. Coptic Christians, who face restrictions in neighbouring Arab countries, enjoy freedom of religion in Israel.
It's completely absurd to pretend that Christians are "free to practice their religion in all Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia."
It is disgusting to compare the evil prophet of Islam with Moses or Christ. Christ preached peace while the innovator of Islam let loose bloodshed on mankind. It defeats me whom the apologists of Islam are trying to fool.
Islam stands on a tripod, that is, Treachery, debauchery and butchery. If any true follower of Islam exists it is those like Osama bin Laden.
#182ppl ppl ppl,
com on man who r utryin 2 tell dat islam is evil. U cant bass the whole religion upon a few action made by individulas who av misundastud da relgion. seriously da creator of dis ite seems lyk a very sad person who has nothin betta 2 do man. no ofence of course.
Islam is an invention of a mad man. This mad man could have been excused had he limited his madness to himself. But he has driven the whole world crazy. Today the earth is never the same again after the advent of the horrific evil who called himself a prophet.
#184what i see here.. is people trying to Avoid my Question ..
What say you of Jesus? The Christ , the Son of Marry Born of Virgin Birth .. the True Messiah
and i pose this Question to my Jewish Friends.. on this Post..
we as Muslim would die for Jesus and fight for Lord the True and LIving God.. the God of Jesus and Moses and Mohammed and All mankind the Creator of Everything..
now Will you not Answer me... or we you bee the like who confronted jesus and to which Jesus Peace be Upon him replied
"Your Questions are like the path on the mountain"
Jesus was Truthfull .. and so was moses about you .. when Moses said
"You do such Acts when i am Alive what will you do when i am Gone"
and in Deutronomy 31,32 ... God tells Moses
"These People will forget me and worship other Gods.."
"and i will make them jelous by a people that have no understanding"
"By a people that are not a nation"
People with no Understanding = Ummi .. unlearned People.. this is what the Jews in Arabia used to call the Arabs
and Arab never were a Nation but Tribes
and then God says
"HE Came with us from Senai"
"He Rose from Seir"
"And He Shall Shine Forth From PAran"
Paran is the Latin Curroption of the Arabic Word Faran .. or the Vally of Faran where Mecca is...
Do check it yourselves
And My Question Still Stands ...
What say Jews of Jesus? The Christ , the Son of Marry Born of Virgin Birth .. the True and the Promised Messaiah From God FOrtold and Prophicised in the Jewish Scriptures
#185The orthodox Jews are still waiting for the coming of the messiah. We gentiles were not part of the fold untill Jesus came. Mohammed twisted everything around to suit his needs because he's full of #### and so are you
Evil Mohammad plagiarised from Bible and Torah to make a hotpotch Koran.
Had Muslims had some sense they would have followed the Christ and would not have shed so much blood over the centuries
#187Blood Shed like the Crusades??
for which Pope John Paul said sorry ... ??
regarding Plgiarising form the bible... .. if one did so .... would it not contain the same mistakes as lie in the bible... and firstly Mohammed Peace Be Upon Him was unlearned thus he could not read the bible and thus could not copy from it..
What im seeing here is people not answering my question but rather talking back in the worst of the manners... that is not inline with the Actions and Teaching of Christ or that of Moses or Any of the Prophets...
Love your Enemy ..
isn't that what Jesus said??
If someone Strikes on one Cheek offer him the other as well
but My Question Still Stands...
WE MUSLIMS LOVE JESUS CHRIST AS THE ONE OF THE MIGHTEIST PROPHETS OF GOD WHo WAS BORN OF VIRGIN BIRTH >> THE TRUE MASSIAH... or SHOULD I SAY THE TRUE KING OF ISREAL .... WHO WILL RETURN AND IN HIS SECOND COMMING WILL FULFILL ALL THAT WAS FORTOLD in the Jewish SCriptures
WE MSULIMS WILL BE THE FIRST TO FOLLOW HIM
AND DIE FOR HIM
HE WAS Pure and did not ask people to comit idolatory ..
His Mother was Pure and gave birth to him as a miracle
He did not Miss lead the Jews he wanted to guide the Flok back to its right path
and As Jesus was sent to Isreal to guide them from their Wrong Doings..
so was Mohammed sent to the World and Christianity to Guide them of how they mixed the Roman Culture into Their Religion
How the Jews Hatted Jesus the True Prophet of God and did what they could .. You do the Same to Mohammed The Ture Prophet ..
the words have not changed
the Jews said "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?" John 10:19
----------------------------------
BUT MY QUESTION STILL STANDS ....
what say jews of Jesus The Christ, The MEshaikh(the annointed one) the Son of the Virgin Marry... what say jews on Who was he and of His Teachings..
we say His teaachings were True and Were from God as a Gaint Step of Utmost Importance in the Evolution of the Religious Understandings of Humanity
NOW WHAT SAY YOU JEWS ABOUT HIM, His Birth, His Authority, His Teachings?
#188i want to share the reality that i lived with the real islam not the false one that they try to convince the west with
if you are muslim, recently converted to muslim some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions which drove a world of 1 billion which dont want to think and search and be honest with them selves
these hypocritic rules is created by mohamed to get people loyality to him in the name of allah and akkbar -which was a an god for some arabs at this time- he started fooling and told his followers how to fool and they must fool and still this story running to the day
a lot of arabs (islam and quran is all about arabic) dosent understand islam so how could non arabs do so they fool them
if you do some honest research you will find that islam is such a mix between some old habbits and customs of arabian community in the past mixed with some stories taken from the christians bible and jewish turah and formed in arabian way put in a sort of strict hypocrtic instructions
most of the truth about islam and islamic lies could be found in arabic do not make them fool you if you dont understand arabic
muslim -real muslims- say that the quran is not accept by allah (GOD) in any other languge than arabic (may be that allah dose not understand english) and the quran is the same since it created -search and you will find it never be correct- and many other lies can not be right
and lies continue
muslims in fact create lies and beleive them
they always speak about islamic miracles, but islam never had a miracle than bringing war and hatred in a religion that get followed by millions that is the real miracle and the only one
any normal to fanatic muslim have a hatred to any non muslim which taught by his or her relegion
anyone knows the real fact about islam and care about his life and others lives and a real god not about this fooling called islam will immediately leave it,
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK!!
mohammed the prophet married many many women -i see he was lust for sex- and married 6 years old kid when he was 50s and mastaurbated with her had sex with her when she became 9!!
that one was from islamic trusted books and hadithes there are so many many more things to say and the real fact have even more
on of the islams aim is to distroy christianity and judism
i do not beleive in any of them yet
but if you put one of them in compare with islam
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
islam is such a big lie of their believers (i was one) aims to destory humanity and all what's good and give loyality to mohammed who never was a good person, who invinted the hypocrisy of islam
read your books, history, turath and THINK
jesus says love your enemy and pray for them, where islam says kill who even don't believe in islam ...
i invite every muslim to begin thinking is that a real distiney
will i find the 70x70 lady waiting for me with muhammed to have sex with me in heaven.
#189Terrorism has nothing to do with religion but rather ones despare and cry out for help or to be heard. Gas goes up by a few cents and whole damn nation crys as if it is the end of the world but doesn't turn to terror. Why? Because it is not that bad and our lives go on as if nothing is happening.We went to war based on particualr date and two skyscrapers.....sure a tragedy of many innocent lives. Never the less our government armed up and went to war milles and milles away from our doorstep.
Now imagine nine eleven happening every weekend like clockwork....now imagine that 30 of your family memebers were executed in front of your eyes as a 4 year old....now imagine going through this for duration of 30 years....now imagine bunch of strangers coming to your town and killing you as well....
now imagine...WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Would you call this a terrorism?
Stop watching Hollywood movies about terrorism...no one want's ransom money...they just want to be heard!
But who cares they are not christians and their sins can't be 'forgotten' and 'repaied' beacuse they don't have the luxury of driving their SUVs on Sunday morning and washing any evil deads.
When is US going to separate church from state?...YEAH RIGHT....
When is Vatican going to melt their gold and feed the hungry?
Faith and belief are something that each person holds within. If all christians and muslims followed what their 'books' ( scripts writen and interepreted by a man and flawed as such ) there would not be nothing short of world peace.
I am all for integration and learning and respecting place where you live...especially US. But tell me this...when was the last time some one was beaten (in US) to near death because they 'looked like christian'?
Freedom of speech...phew...please, it doesn't exisit no matter how assimilated you are. It is more in line of "freedom of speech within our borders".
What does assimilation really mean?
Should we then expell 70% of population made of ex-nazzi, ex-euro money-hungry-criminals that came to US and burned, raped and killed natives to make room for their religion....while prests strolled along and converted everone and everyhing in their way?
Yes the civilised west...oh so great...
Converting over to religion based on one woman that really stuck to her story and had no guts to admit she cheated on her husband?
Following the muhammed but we can't even see a picture of the man?
This country knows only one color and that is color of GREEN and worships in church of ATM.\
So, yes, 'religion' is just another way of controlling weak-minded.
How about you give us our land back and get the hell out of this place...OUT COUNTRY....ALL OF YOU!
We lived in peace and prosperity beliving in only one true thing.....the Mother Earth that had us.
#190eagle of the west, you need to wear glasses....theres another group thats crippling America, and thats environmentalists
#191Environmentalists are naive and well - intended, not evil. The above back and forth shows that Winston Churchill was correct in saying that Muslims can be individually charming but collectively form a failed civilization. Many Islamics in the US are very pleasant and try to make a better life for themselves, all admirable. Daud and Zummer seem to be intelligent and ones who try to respond to rationality and not fanaticism.
Clearly the PC types have insured that our educational system teaches little of value with regard to the Crusades, and the struggle with Islam since the 7th century, and what Islam is all about. I at one time believed that "all religions are basically the same, they just do stuff in different ways but all are good." After reading many books, as recommended by a post above (including "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades," but have not yet read "The Sword of the Prophet." Everyone needs to read "Willful Blindness, a Memoir of the Jihad," by Andrew McCartney, the lead prosecutor of the Blind Sheik and the other evil that the FBI let bomb the WTC the first time, and how Clinton and his band of liberals treat this as some kind of prissy lawyer war, the same path the clueless Democrats still pursue.)
What Daud & Zummer miss is that we police our evil, we do not give them a free pass b/c they are Americans. And we certainly do not call them heros who are in paradise. And only the lunitic fringe looks up to the McVeys, the Columbine losers,...Islamapoligists love to talk about Timmothy McVey, well we executed him, and there are not tens of millions of McVeys running around like those brainwashed in mosques and madressas since infancy. We lock fanatics up, even though we are plagued by lawyers who profit by letting the guilty get away with bad things to evil things. (The lawyer who represents the Blind Sheik, Kunstler or something like that, has blood on his hands and will burn in Hell. Ditto for those representing those at Gitmo.) These Islamics are far stranger and more evil that anything from outer space that we used to be fascinated about. And Winston Churchill's comments on Islam was before oil dollars and explosive population growth of Islamics. They represent a very real threat to civilization.
It all came to me during an interview of an Islamic lady who had a title something like "Middle East Consultant for Islamic Affairs" by Fox during the Israeli - Hezbollah conflict of 2006. She was asked "Why do Islamics not criticize or even acknowledge that Hezbolla is using them as human sheilds?" Her reply was "Islamics are forbidden to criticize other Islamics." So there it is, the Fatal Flaw of Islam, just came up as an obvious, oh - by - the - way statement. There you have how Islamics can be just oh so offended about everything and do not even acknowledge the evil perpetrated not just now but through out their history by Islamics in name of Allah. Just listen to the cockpit recorder of United 93 in its last moments by the terrorists "Allah is beautiful, Allah is beautiful, over and over." sickening evil. If Islam were a real religion and not evil, that would be much more offensive that some cartoons or some British school teacher's students naming a teddy bear Muhammod.
Hope I am wrong but the bottom line as I see it: 1. Islam has no Winston Churchills, Jeffersons, Ghandis, Newtons, Michaelangelos, Gallieo's, Maxwells, no Nobel Prizes except stupid Jimmy Carter stuff, nothing but fat bearded evil guys and Osama. Islam must renounce their history of not criticizing other Islamics for evil, must police their evil and apologize to the civilized world for Islamic evil past and present, must find and rally behind real leaders that promote the good of the people as part of a global community and not some stupid 72 virgins stuff and kill for Allah (how could any sane person believe that kind of stupid stuff?). Islam must renounce and police their evil. or 2. The Clash of Civilizations - The End of the World As We Know It (No Obama and no getting rid of our nuclear weapons, as we are going to need them.)
CouthBaron
#192The following was provided in response to a question from a gent regarding Turkey as an ally. The response goes much farther than answering the question posed, and so in the hope of raising the level of awareness of what I see as a Coming Confrontation, maybe the biggest one ever, I provide this here as well. Rush Limbaugh, Disney, and WMAL radio in Washington DC. Commentary follows:
You ask an extremely important question, Mr. Godfrey, but you must understand that Mr. Pipes cannot answer all these posts in detail, and what he has told you most succinctly here is very true, you must read books, you must seek the truth. You will not get the truth by watching the CBS Evening News, or PBS, ....only at Fox will you get this, and it will be by necessity, skimpy. This intellectual bankruptcy is pernicious, indeed I fear that 4 November 2008 will be recorded as the day the door shut on the American Empire. The Beginning of the End would be 20 January 1977, the day that James Earl Carter took office, and the Democrat Party of FDR, HST, JFK, .... became the Dhimmicrat Party of Carter, William Jefferson Clinton, and let us hope not, Barack Hussain Obama.Carter had idiot feckless advisors who told this horrendously inept president that the Shah should be cast aside in favor of Allatoyla Khomeini. Go to page 128 of "The Final Move Beyond Iraq" by Mike Evans and read about Ambassador William Sullivan's telegraph to Carter calling Khomeini "a Ghandi - like personage, a MODERATE, and a centrist who would not PERSONALLY INVOLVE HIMSELF IN THE POLITICS OF IRAN." Then see how that "James Bill, a leading (???) expert on Iran, proclaimed in a Newsweek interview on February 12, 1979, that 'Khomeini is not a high - ranking mujtahid,....but a man of impeccable of impeccable integrity and honesty'" ???? Wow, reread that, and look it up yourself if you do not believe it.
#193So what does this have to do with Turkey, you ask. According to Serge Trifkovic, in "The Sword of the Prophet," and its sequel, "Defeating Jihad," it is quite likely that the sequel to Carter's Islamic Republic of Evil that he gave us in 1979 is the Islamic Republic of Turkey. (Read these two books, Mr. Godfrey, and you will be sad, but at least you will know the truth, not all the phoney Dhimmicratic lies.) So you say, "Carter may have made a mistake, but everyone makes mistakes." And, most unfortunately, I must reply, November 4th, look at what the American People did on that day, in droves they voted for the Bringers of Freddie/Fannie, Nancy Pelosi, do you have a sister Nancy? Harry Reid, can we clone you, I want my youngun to grow up to be just like you Harry, even though you aren't quite Dirty Harry. (Another excellent read is "Inquiry, Integrity, Intelligence, and Inspiration: The Four Horsemen of Effective Governmental Function," by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. And also read "My Corps: Why I Would Never Embarass the United States Marine Corps," by John Murtha. On November 4th, the American People voted him back into office. But, I have just realized that I am assuming that you know who the Bringers of Freddie/Fannie are, that you know Barney Franks, Frank Raines, Maxine "California Freeloading" Waters, Gregory "I am so angry at people who would waste the taxpayer's money" Meeks, .... all these pristinely honest and informed people the Dhimmicrats have blessed the American People with, and so were rewarded by the grateful American People on November 4th. And assuming that you know that, I realize, is a HUGE mistake, because as evidenced by what happened November 4th, and not by any close margin, the election was just a perfunctory thing that everyone knew the outcome of. Nevermind there was an honest man running, one who was a POW, and even thought he is 71 years old, does have the right values, and is a man of honor. Not saying I agree with everything about his ideas, but honesty and integrity I can work with. So let me introduce to you, the American People, these wonderful people you so admire and trust, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs And of course the Dhimmicrats will equivocate & prevaricate to claim it was not their fault, and apparently the American People are quite the soft touch, as evidenced by what happened November 4th.
#194And it does not escape me that the real blame is not on Carter, Clinton, and the above - mentioned people, it is on the Indolent American People, those shallow ones with the mental acumen of a fifth grader, yes all GW Bush's fault, we want change....well you are indeed getting a change from the likes of HST, FDR, JFK, and even the immensely unpopular LBJ. He may have micromanaged and bungled the Viet Nam war, the war conducted so as to not hurt anyone's feelings, but not corrupt like the Dhimmicrats of Clinton and his Sandy Burglers (what were you trying to hide Sandy, is it related by Bill's outrage about insinuations that he did not take out bin Ladin?????), and not stupid like Carter, the one who started all this CRA (google the Community Reinvestment Act, see that Carter started it, Clinton make it worse, and the BH Obama involvement in it, and find out what Acorn is, and how it was related to the CRA, do not be fooled by all the lies, but of course we see on November 4th that you obviously were fooled. Find out about the $800,000 that Obama gave to Acorn to "Get out the vote," yes, dead folks, Mickey Mouse, and most importantly, black folks. Another great read is "My Struggle and Futility in Trying to Win the Black Vote," by Barack Hussian Obama.
Now, page 134 of The Final Move Beyond Iraq, "When the head of the French Secret Service, the Count of Maranche, suggested to Carter in 1980 that Khomeini be kidnapped and then bartered for an exchange with the hostages, the president was indignant. 'One cannot do that to a holy man,' he told the French super - spy. In fact, the Carter - appointed ambassador to the UN, Andrew Young, asserted that the ayatollah would 'eventually be hailed as a saint.'". American People, your doom is your indolence and intellectual bankruptcy, you cannot continue to elect corrupt idiots like this, like you did for two terms of WJ Clinton, and God help us, we are indeed doomed if you elected another corrupt Dhimmicratic idiot November 4th.
#195If you did, then, be gracious, know that you were the greatest nation on Earth in the twentieth century, the Marshall Plan, the Berlin wall coming down, neveming the Europeans deny Regan had anything to do with it, as did the Dhimmicrates, but you must now hand the baton to China and India, hand the baton over, America, be gracious, unclutch that baton....
Now let us go to page 199 of "Defeating Jihad," and read about how Carter and Brzezinski decided to "support hard - core Islamists in the insurgency against the Soviets in Afghanistan. As we now know, that decision was a strategic mistake of the highest order: it prompted the release of the Jihadist genie from a bottle that had remain sealed for almost three centuries after the siege of Vienna." American People, meet the "Afghan Blowback," courtesy of Carter and the Dhimmicrats. And in case you do not know about Vienna, see http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/05/counterjihad-vienna-2008.html That's right, American People, the Islamic Conquest of Europe was halted at the gates of Vienna on September 11th, 1683. Yes, it was September 11th, and this conquest of Europe did not end in 1683, only delayed, so now read "America Alone," by Mark Steyn, to understand and perhaps be a bit frightened by this. Back to page 199, "The fruits went beyond the jihadists' wildest dreams. Brzezinski will go down in history as the man who did for bin Laden what the Kaiser did for Lenin by providing him with that sealed train from Switzerland to the Baltic in 1917....."A series of 'liberal' interventions on the side of the Balkan Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo) ensued in the 1990s (WJ Clinton time). The most tangible result fo promoting 'common ideals and interests in this globalized world' by NATO bombs is the existance of a vibrant jihadist base in the heart of Europe that has had a connection, one way or another, with every major terrorist attack in the past three years, from Istanbul to Madrid."
#196Did you catch that, American People? Yes, Clinton and the Dhimmicrats bombed the wrong people in Bosia, pandering to Islamics in the hope that suddenly they would "like" us. Totally and Terminally Stupid. I would make these two Trifkovic books mandatory reading in high school, but will this ever happen, no, sadly no, so I try to spread the word, but know that it is likely futile, lost in the tsunami of indolence of an American People who are sailing into oblivion, going the same way as the Romans, Spaniards, due to rot from within, with the Dhimmicrats at the helm. But I can tell you one thing with confidence, if everyone had read the two Trifkovic books, November 4th would have been very different. And just maybe, I would have some help throwing select Dhimmicrats thru the nearest window for destroying my once - proud nation, a Defenestration of the Dhimmicrats, if you will. Let us all hope that the second time Michelle Obama was proud of her country is not the first time the American People would not be proud of their country. That word hope, it is all that remains.
And my good man, Mr. Godfrey, I know you think I do not realize that this question was all about Turkey, but that is not so, I have tried to put it into a larger context in the perhaps futile hope of attaining an acceptable level of awareness as to what we face.
#197Turning to page 200, we have "As for Iraq, although the deception was no greater than Clinton's claim that the 1999 Kosovo war was waged to stop 'genocide,' its immediate cost in American lives and treasure is far higher. But contrary to what could be expected on the basis of their rhetoric about the Iranian threat, the proponents of the war in Iraq are remarkably forgiving of the transgressions by Pakistan and Turkey, two of the weakest links in the Global War On Terror. They accept General Musharraff's farcial elections as legitimate. His past support for the Taliban is forgotten, his duplicity over Kashmir glossed over in silence, and his claims to have been oblivious (think Reverend Wright here.....) to Dr. Khan' nuclear proliferation network are taken seriously. The same people call TURKEY an 'indispensable ally' (Paul Wolfowitz), accept at face value the 'post - Islamic' character of its government, readily forgive its ostentatious refusal to help in the Iraqi war, and insist on the necessity fo Turkey's joining the European Union. They pretend to be indignant of the warnings that the country - more than nine - tenths Asiatic, and 90% Muslim, is not 'European.' In reality, TURKEY IS A SEMI-DORMANT ISLAMIC VOLCANO that may erupt at any moment, with virulence unseen since Iran in 1979." Now take all that boatload in, and just hope Mr. Trifkovic is wrong. Meet Mr. Trifkovic by renting the dvd "Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam."
#198I will now direct you to see the Enemy Within, yes, they are here, but not in the numbers in Europe, The European Islamic Anaconda is much larger than the American Islamic Anaconda. Right now, the European Islamic Anaconda has maybe the rear hindquarter of Europe in its mouth, this Anaconda has the facade of Muhammod Atta, the most evil face I have ever seen, those cold killer eyes, the demonic evil behind those eyes, that face that is not just from Hell, that face is now IN HELL. See http://www.womanhonorthyself.com/?p=4177 to better understand this, how brave Americans right out of high school hit the Normandy beaches and died by the thousands there and afterwards so that the French would be free to not offend Islamics, and so the good people of Brussels would be free to not be able to observe a moment of silence for the victims of 9/11, as this offends Islamics, nevermind they claim that Mussad of Israel did it, or that GW Bush did it. Another great read: "The True Story: What Really Happened on 9/11," by Rosie ODonnell, and "Love At First Sight: How I Knew That Rosie Was the One for Me," by Donald Trump. The American Islamic Anaconda is much smaller than its European counterpart. It is perhaps 10 feet away, as its Atta facade has a slight smile as he gazes at us. But the American People, in the spirit of "All Religions are peaceful and tolerant, Islam is a religion, Islam is peaceful and tolerant," not being aware of the dichotomy of the Believer and the Unbeliever, and that Islam has a theology, doctrine, and legal system that mandates perpetual warfare against the Unbeliever, feckless, clueless, gullible, trusting American People, do not question the need for a large Muslim diaspora in the US. They fail to understand that an estimated thirtyish percent of Muslims are of the hard core fanatically demonic types, and that the remaining sixtyish percent of Muslims remain silent, out of fear, tacit support, or a combination of the two.
#199The true victims of this horrible evil religion are the Muslims, especially its women. A Crusade is needed to save them, but I do not think we have it in us, viz. November 4th, and what we see in Europe, the British, French, Spanish, Romans, people whose glory exists now only in history books, they of decline. The American Islamic Anaconda, with the arrival of every one of the demonic thirtish percent of Muslim immigrants, gets a bit larger, and the smile of Atta it has fades a bit, the Anaconda grows, the smile fades, ....grows.....fades.....gulp. Page 167 of Defeating Jihid is titled "Jihad's Agitprop." It begins "A major exploiter of the opportunities provided by the liberal mindset has been the Council on American - Islamic Relations (CAIR). This group has been able to bully and intimidate American institutions, forcing them to adopt an insiduous spirit of self - censorship regarding Islam. It scored a major and highly alarming victory in August 2005 when WMAL, a Washington DC talk radio station (WMAL, you lucky heroic brave Americans, you shall get a copy of this, in fairness to you, and so will Rush Limbaugh, although his Screener Monkeys may never let him see it) succumbed to its pressure and fired presenter Michael Graham for his comment on the link between Islam and terrorism. He said: 'Because of the mix of Islamic theology that - rightly or wrongly, is interpreted to promote violence, added to an organizational structure that allows violent radicals to operate openly in Islam's name with impunity, Islam has, sadly, become a terrorist organization. It pains me to say it. But the good news is it doesn't have to stay this way, if the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terror will step forward and re - claim their religion.' The Disney - owned (Disney, you get a copy of this too) station terminated Graham both for this statement and his subsequent refusal to apologize for it. In doing so it has caved into CAIR's equation of all critical analysis of Islam with 'Islamophobia.'" At this point, I at least submit, Mr. Godfrey, that I have at least tried to address your concerns regarding Turkey. I have also tried to tell you where to look to find the truth, it will not come to you, you will be lied to and do more ill - informed actions as the likely fatal one of November 4th. But WMAL, Disney, .... know you well that if you continue to surpress First Amendment rights and indulge in all this Politically Correct stupidity, then you will indeed feel the Sword of the Prophet. Allah Akbar!
"Islamists understand that their most powerful secret weapon is the Liberal Mindset, while despising it at the same time." Serge Trifkovic, "The Sword of the Prophet"
"Tolerance of Intolerance is not Tolerance," Mark Steyn, "America Alone"
#200To: #178
"Tariq Aziz .. The Minister during the Time of Sadam Hussein in Iraq was Christian"
Yes, and Iraq was then ruled by the secularist Ba'ath party, which had a negative link to Islamist groups
ie: Al Qaeda, for one... I'm pretty sure Dick Cheney was actually an Iranian mole, since Iran is the
only country to gain from the sectarianism now dividing Iraq. At least when Saddam and the Ba'athists
were in charge, a tight lid was kept on this powder keg...
#201I should clarify "which had a negative link to Islamist groups..." as "was hostile to groups such as...", I suppose it could be interpreted differently.
#202OMG! From some Al Sharpton/Jerimah Wright hypocrite reverend, “Deliver us from the favoritism of the rich???...... When Black Not Be Asked to Give Back???? When Brown Stay Around?????? When Yellow be mellow, Red man get ahead, man. When White man embrace WHAT IS RIGHT??????” Pitiful. This garbage after we have JUST (stupidly) ELECTED THE FIRST BLACK MAN AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Absolutely disgraceful, disgusting, and the American People did this totally casting aside his hearing Jerimah Wright “preach” for twenty years of wasted Sunday mornings, and somehow “was unaware” of his hateful message? Totally stupid to believe that, just not plausible.
And “Go back to your places of worship, your churches, your MOSQUES???????????????????” This were they are told to tell everyone that “Islam is a religion of peace,” and that the Quran says “To kill a single human being is to kill all of mankind,” fully knowing, and unfortunately most Americans too stupid and ignorant to know that all this was abrogated by the latter chronologically
#203“The Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5: ‘fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft – Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (This is the well – known aspect of Islam, in brief, “Convert or die.” They are taught to do this in mosques, I am sure, in the spirit of al Taqiyya (VicR, will post this at www.bigpicweblog.com ), the divinely - mandated lying to Unbelievers and to conceal their true Muslim beliefs.
And then we heard from BHO this tough stuff to terrorist states about “If your governments do these evil things your people will throw them out.” Ridiculous, absolutely absurd, as absurd as the quest for the unicorn, totally stupid, they will not and they have not since Muhammod in 610 AD had the words of Lucifer resonate within himself when he went up on that mountainside. Check out the Nobel Prize awards in Arts and Sciences, even though out of 6.5 billion people on the planet there are 1.5 ish billion Muslims who have contributed NEXT TO NOTING TO MANKIND SINCE THE 10th CENTURY!
#204“The Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5: ‘fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft – Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (This is the well – known aspect of Islam, in brief, “Convert or die.” They are taught to do this in mosques, I am sure, in the spirit of al Taqiyya (VicR, will post this at www.bigpicweblog.com ), the divinely - mandated lying to Unbelievers and to conceal their true Muslim beliefs. And then we heard from BHO this tough stuff to terrorist states about “If your governments do these evil things your people will throw them out.” Ridiculous, absolutely absurd, as absurd as the quest for the unicorn, totally stupid, they will not and they have not since Muhammod in 610 AD had the words of Lucifer resonate within himself when he went up on that mountainside. Check out the Nobel Prize awards in Arts and Sciences, even though out of 6.5 billion people on the planet there are 1.5 ish billion Muslims who have contributed NEXT TO NOTING TO MANKIND SINCE THE 10th CENTURY! No Beethovens, since Muhammod said music was evil, no Nikola Teslas, Isaac Newtons, Michaelangelos, James Clerk Maxwells, Benjamin Franklins, Alva Edisons, Indira Ghandis, George Simon Ohms, Alessandra Voltas, Christian Huygens, Galliea Gallieos, Nickolas Copernicus’s, Tyco Brahes, Louis Amperes, Karl Fredrich Gauss’s, ……NOTHING BUT EVIL. This man is CLUELESS, as Rush surmised, “An empty barrel makes the most noise.
#205For you follows some words from Serge Trifkovic’s Defeating Jihad, the sequel to The Sword of the Prophet. These two books are analogous to the Old Testament and New Testament with regard to what Islam is. Page 290: “Conditio sine qua non all along is to accept and declare that the First Amendment does not protect Jihadists. It is in the American tradition that nothing ought to protect those who advocatet he overthrow of the United States Government by force and violence, and, at bottom, that is what the Jihadists are up to. Legal regulators need to grasp that Islam itself is a radical, revolutionary ideology, inherently seditious and inimical to American values and institutions. No court in any democratic country should uphold the constitutionality of any measure targeted at a particular religion. But if th facts were known about what is going on in MOSQUES, and what is the nature and goal of worldwide Jihad, the necessary legal regulation may be accomplished. The First Amendment protection to political speech should not extend to Sharia bexause of its inherently discriminatory nature. We do not need new legal theories, or a different conception of the First Amendment; WE NEED AN EDUCATIONAL CAMPAIGN. The dominant view in the academy and in the courts is that any thought oor political idea ought to be protected, so the educator’s job is to convince legislators that we are dealing with a new phenomenon more dangerous even than anarchism, fascism, or communism:
#206‘If that is ever done, then the precedents from 1903 or 1920 basically kick in, nd the Jihadists get perceived not as exercisers of First Amendment rights, but as dangerous subversives. Anyone trying to do that will have to plunge into the thicket of what a religion actually is, however, and the Courts are notoriously unclear on that.’ Professor Stephen Presser to Mr. Trifkovic in a letter, January, 2005 Radically new form of legal clarity on Islam’s political nature is needed before the acceptance of our proposals becomes reality. It is badly needed because the proposed measures recognize that we are in a War of Ideas (me: Read Walid Phares book with this title) and in th midst of a MEGA-CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS, whether we want that or not and however much we HATE THE FACT. This war is being fought, on the Islamic side, with the deep belief that the West is on its last legs (Me: And today is the apex so far of that belief by Muslims, January 20, 2009). The success of its demographic onslaught on Europe enhances the image of a ‘candy store with the busted lock,’ and that view is reinforced by THE EVIDENCE FROM HISTORY THAT A CIVILIZATION THAT LOSES THE URGE FOR SELF – PERPETUATION IS INDEED IN PERIL.”
"Islamics understand that their most powerful secret weapon is the Liberal Mindset, while at the same time despising it." -- Serge Trifkovic, "Defeating Jihad"
"Tolerance of Intolerance is not Tolerance." -- Mark Steyn, "America Alone"
”The basis of the social and legal order and source of all obligation in Islam is the Kuran, the final revelation of Allah’s will that is to be obeyed by all creation. His divine sovereignty is irreconcilable with popular sovereignty, the keystone of democracy.” -- Serge Trifkovic, "The Sword of the Prophet"
#207What is your definition of "assimilated"? For example, if someone obeys US laws, goes to work, has a family, but in their own time they attend a mosque, don't drink, pray 3 times a day, etc. are they assimilated?
I'm asking because there is a fine line between assimilation and preserving your culture. Americans have done the latter forever, and it's part of what makes America great. I like that I can go into China town and be in a place that has not fully assimilated.
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with not assimilating as long as it doesn't seek to change the prevailing culture...in other words, the assimilation should exist in a small bubble within the greater overall US bubble. I don't see US muslims trying to change the previaling culture, although it's arguable that it is happening in places in Europe.
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Alan S.
<A href="http://www.avvo.com/dui-dwi-lawyer/ca/san_diego.html">San Diego DUI lawyer</A>
#208I should also point out that there are many places where Muslims have successfuly assimilated, and there have been times in the past where people have accused Europeans of not wanting to assimilate. For example, during one of the great waves of German immigration, people were complaining about all sorts of things and how Germans were going to ruin American culture. This is not to say that assimilation concerns aren't legitimate. It just means there's historical precident for jumping to conclusions.
#209Assimilation??? It depends how you define "muslims". There are many who've driften so far from their pure creed - the "real" islam - as to be all but token. There are many - more than you might think - who've converted to Christianity. My former Moroccan neighbour is one. Having seen islam from within, he made a private and self-aware, voluntary decision to leave it. One of the most prominent Anglican Bishops in the UK, comes from a muslim family. He's under no illusions at all about the potential damage unassimilated islam and "real" muslims can cause. He's not hostile to muslims per se, but very alert to the difficulties islam poses and is against this. Yet again is the recently established, but rather clandestine for obvious reasons, Council of ex-muslims, set up in Britain but with branches throughout the EU. And there's the interesting conversion to Christianity of Mossab Hassan Yousef, son of a Hamas leader from Ramallah. He moved to America and now attends the Barabbas Rd Church in San Diego. Islam is not having it all its own way. There's a slow drift of "muslims" from it. many convert; many more become merely muslims (minus the emphasis).
Islam, at heart, is a separatist cult. Muslims are enjoined to avoid kaffirs. To divorce themselves from their society. To overthrow the Dar al Harb. Lots do this. Lots in the West preach this. But those that abandon this muslim requirement and integrate instead, are slipping away from it. All the better for them. As for the others, we have to see them and their faith for what it is. Certainly, those that have left do.
#210For example, during one of the great waves of German immigration, people were complaining about all sorts of things and how Germans were going to ruin American culture.
But they were Jewish and Christian.
Many of the German Jews ended up assimilating through the new Reform Jewish Congregations started in the US by Rabbi Isaac Mayer Wise
The Christian Germans were either part of established Lutheran churches or assimilated with other immigrants and native born Americans into the Roman Catholic church.
Both the Reform Jewish and the Roman Catholic congregations became melting pots for the European and other immigrants. Many marriages united two people of different nationalities and cultures, but were of the same faith.
Additionally, both groups had roots in colonial America - especially in Pennsylvania.
So the German immigration was not as counter-cultural as Islam.
Perhaps a better example would have been the influx of Asians who practice many non-JudeoChristian faiths: Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs However their faiths do not advocate a 'convert or die' theology or the overthrow of nations.
These immigrants have been able to assimilate more successfully into the American fabric.
#211The Irish weren't particularly popular as they immigrated here in droves during the 19th century. The Italians were not trusted that much either. Lots of bad things were said about them before they "assimilated". Those words were born out of fear, and fear is born out of ignorance.
I submit the following which I copied from About.com's list of the top 10 myths about Islam...
7. Islam promotes "jihad" to spread Islam by the sword and kill all unbelieversThe word Jihad stems from an Arabic word which means "to strive." Other related words include "effort," "labor," and "fatigue." Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution. The effort may come in fighting the evil in your own heart, or in standing up to a dictator. Military effort is included as an option, but as a last resort and not "to spread Islam by the sword."
#212Anyone here speaking in a Native American tongue?
The Muslims aren't here to overthrow our nation....but if they do, we will only have gotten as good as we gave.
#213Jesus was not a prophet, but a witness to he who is, was, and is to come...I looked an behold I saw a women clothed in the sun and the moon at her feet, and she was with a man child. This is the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ..Todays prophesy is that Jesus, the Son of God, the Son of man walked in the flesh to suffer all things, even death. By his blood he purchased unto God a new kingdom
#214Azbastard....yep, Jesus rocked, but that's not really the point. George Bush says Islam is a religion of peace...and I agree with him that a fanatical minority have twisted their religion into a justification for their inhumanity to man....just like people have tried to do to Christianity in the past.
#215But that is precisly the point. If any man or religion does not belive this, then he will feel the wrath of God. Its pretty clear to me that the saints, bought by the blodd of Jesus, and the beast that rises out of the sand, will butt heads. Which side are you on?
#216Azbastard.....Always with the wrath..the blood...battling the beast. Your Jesus offers vengeance. My Jesus offers the Golden Rule. You see demons everywhere. I see the Children of God. You see good vs. evil. I see Yen and Yang. You await Victory delivered by the Sword. I wait for nothing...I'll let God determine the worth of my life....not others who say I am lost for not believing as they believe. You should read less Revelations and more Sermon on the Mount....because really, you sound like a talking gargoyle.
#217Jamie..I will leave you with this. If you believe in Christ, then you are a brother. I want to live in peace and judge no man. I do not wrestle with good and evil, because I have reeived the comforter, a gift from our Lord Jesus. Know the faith and patience of the saints. Things that have happened in the past, now, and in the future were written since the foundation of time. Open your eyes.
#218@ Jamie, #211:
I submit the following which I copied from About.com’s list of the top 10 myths about Islam…
7. Islam promotes "jihad" to spread Islam by the sword and kill all unbelieversThe word Jihad stems from an Arabic word which means "to strive." Other related words include "effort," "labor," and "fatigue." Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution. The effort may come in fighting the evil in your own heart, or in standing up to a dictator. Military effort is included as an option, but as a last resort and not "to spread Islam by the sword."
This passage is strictly accurate, but may communicate an inaccurate understanding of Islam to non-Muslims.
It is helpful to also reference this other passage, also from about.com:
A crucial distinction made in Islamic theology is that between dar al-harb and dar al-islam. To put it simply, dar al-harb (territory of war or chaos) is the name for the regions where Islam does not dominate, where divine will is not observed, and therefore where continuing strife is the norm. By contrast, dar al-islam (territory of peace) is the name for those territories where Islam does dominate, where submission to God is observed, and where peace and tranquility reign.
Islamic theology declares war against regions where Islam does not dominate.
The headline on the passage you quote states that it is a myth that "Islam promotes "jihad" to spread Islam by the sword and kill all unbelievers". This is strictly accurate. Islam doesn't promote jihad to kill all unbelievers. However, it does promote jihad to kill and/or subjugate all unbelievers.
The passage states that the military option is included. It states that jihad is the effort to practice Islam "in the face of oppression and persecution." As we know, Islam considers free speech to be un-Islamic oppression of Muslims. In short, reading all the about.com material together, we have a cogent explanation of how Islam opposes free speech and demands that Islamists must be at war with non-Muslims.
[Continued in next comment]
#219[Continued from previous comment]
It is always important, when discussing Islam, to go to the source material. The Hadith are accounts of the sayings and doings of Mohammed, and are the second most holy books of Islam, after the Koran. You can search the Hadith on this USC page. (However, only check one checkbox - it appears that in some cases if more than one box is checked, search is disabled.) Searching the hadith of Bukhari, we quickly find the following:
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)."
Note carefully that it says, "Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." I did not add the parenthetical expression, "(religious fighting)" - that is actually in the USC translation of the hadith.
Here's another one (same link).
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
"Sariya" means army unit. Here again, the word "jihad" refers to violent fighting and killing.
By one estimate, fully 97% of the references to "jihad" in the Bukhari Hadith, are violent; only 3% are about non-violent inner struggle:
...what is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? Let’s turn to Bukhari (the Hadith) for the answer, as he repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari 97% of the references to jihad are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle.
Jamie, now that you have seen references in Islamic holy texts stating that jihad is violent fighting, and saying that one way into paradise is for Muslims to die in "Holy battle", do you now recognize that these Islamic holy texts urge Muslims to do violent fighting?
#220Vic Rubenfeld....I don't believe you have to accept Jesus to go to Heaven. That means I'm not a Christian to a lot of people. I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. I do believe that Jesus had an inspirational message. I also believe the Tao Te Ching holds an inspirational message. I've read only a few passages from the Koran....to be honest, it just kind of bores me. I don't doubt the existance of violence in the Koran. I know for a fact that I can find darkness in the Bible. From what I've seen in life, a fundamentalist Christian and a Fundamentalist Muslim are two sides of the same coin. They deny equal rights for women. They don't tolerate other cultures. They accept free speech only when it's on their side. They are 100% convinced of their righteousness as they preach doom and gloom to the masses, pulling the weak of mind and spirit into a black hole of extremism.
Religous texts are subjected to translations, interpretations, and editing. If you want to believe that God guided that process and that the hand of man was not allowed to interfere as the Bible we know today was assembled, then fine. But I don't. If someone finds comfort reading the Koran, then fine. But I don't. Live and let live...that's the American way. But when you get in the way of my life, my liberty, and my pursuit of happiness, then we have a problem. We are at war with terrorist, who just happen to follow a hard core, fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. If you don't believe that maintstream Islam is a religion of peace, then you have a disagreement with a lot of people who happen to include our former President George Bush. I would think it disheartening for the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to hear you say that any nation with Islam as it's primary religion is doomed to failure. By your logic, anything other than the total destruction of people from Morroco to Indonesia falls short of ensuring a chance at peace.
When I was in high school, I went with a friend to his church. My parents, moderate Baptist, didn't want me to go. I had no idea why. Their church was Baptist too...what was the difference? There was a big difference. The pastor there preached hate to a full house. They were fundamentalists...and as the preacher made jokes about the pope going to hell...about Baptist like my parents going to hell...I felt like I was in a Nazi pep rally. Their type of Christianity took over the churchI grew up with. As a member of a church belonging to Southern Baptist Convention, I grew up believing that I didn't need a priest to tell me what to believe. They taught me tolerance and respect for others. Now if I say "Baptist", people think of intolerance. My parents started going to a Methodist Church...but it's never been the same.
I agree that fundamentalist theology is a dangerous thing...just as dangerous to Christianity as it is to Islam. But if we're going to analyze why the Middle East is such a messed up place, perhaps we should also examine the effects of colonialism by Europe. Perhaps if the lines drawn in the Arabian sands had given more consideration to demographics, nations like Iraq wouldn't suffer from the struggle of three distinct cultures. Perhaps that was the plan of Christian Europe...to set these nations up for failure.
You're a smart guy. You know you can't wipe Islam off the map. Instead of focusing so much on learning it's bad side, why don't you try to find a way to work with moderate Muslims? I guarantee, if a group of Christians and Muslims got together, they could agree on certain universal principles that might provide hope for peaceful coexistance. No killing in the name of God. No beating up on women allowed. Leave out any arguments about Jesus verses Mohammad, and I'm certain the meeting will go just fine.
#221I don’t doubt the existance of violence in the Koran.
Do you doubt that the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims?
#222Nice how you totally avoided any of my other comments and only want to talk about this issue. Fine.....let's look at something you said earlier.
As we know, Islam considers free speech to be un-Islamic oppression of
Muslims.
Is there something in the Koran that explains your assertion that free speech is un-Islamic? The lack of free speech seems more symptomatic of political rather than religous oppression. Certainly fundamentalist Muslims aren't fond of free speech...but neither are fundamentalist Christians (book burning types).
So anyway, I'm not sure specifically what verse you're referring to, but this one mentions killing oppressors. Taking the "kill them wherever you find them" would sound pretty bad if taken out of context.
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
So give me something out of Islamic religous texts that forbids freedom of speech, and we'll go from there. But if you could actually answer my question regarding European colonial influence on the destiny of the Middle Eastern nations, that would be a bit more of an interesting topic for me.
#223My post #219-220, addresses a position you appeared to take in your post #211, that jihad is non-violent. I will be happy to address other subjects once that has been resolved. Given the material we have been discussing from about.com, and the quotes I cited from the hadith, do you agree that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims?
#224Those who say all nations who have Islam as the religion of state cannot succeed are correct. Islam as the theocracy is not compatilbe with any other religion, it is not as if you can decide to check out a Methodist church one weekend and a Baptist another, no free will and without that no enlightnment, no doing the right thing for your fellow man, no doing the very best for the person who stands in front of you, no do unto others as you would wish them to do to you. Only servitude to Allah who has preordained everything and commanded you to make perpetual war against the unbeliever until he converts, becomes a second class nonentity Dhimmi and pays the Jizya non - poll tax, or is killed. This is inhumane and it is evil, and it should not be with us today.
Yes, you can go to crazy fundamentalist snake handling redneck churches, this is religion for stupid people. But the point is, you do have a choice. And if you do not have a choice, why even bother to be here? If you cannot seek the truth, if you do not have the truth, then just what do you have. If you only have the choice, no, not even a choice, if you must do this five prayer thing and the Mecca thing, which is really nothing but some sort of moon god pagan stuff where Muhommad would come to and the go over there and throw some rocks into a canyon or something, I mean the whole thing is totally stupid. And that would not be so bad were it not for all the beheadings and storming into villages and cities for fourteen centuries and murduring all the men and rape and orgy and pillage for three nights and then the women become slaves. What kind of decency is it to tell these barbarians to promote Islam by killing everyone and your payoff is that you get to loot. Is this not pure demonic evil? This is what it means eupheumistically to "Spread Islam by the Sword," these harsh words do not do justice to the reality of what happened. I think that if it were only Smyrna, 1922, the Destruction of a City, then it may be dismissed as an abherration. But this is not what happened, and it was not just Smyrna, it was all of Anatolia, and then Eastern Thrace, and in this very day, the Islamics are taking over Macedonia. What a horrible thing it is for the Greeks to be so close to this evil.
#225And the talk about the dar al Islam and dar al Harb. But there is also a twilight zone, dar al Sulh, the house where Islam temporizes until their numbers are sufficient, exactly what happened to the people of Mecca, a ten year truce but Muhammod after only two years deceides his numbers are sufficient so he sacks Mecca and personally has about 8 to nine hundred of the al Querrish (? spelling) tribe dig trenches and behead them five at a time. then the rape and pillage and orgy thing, and this is still with us? Europe, write down dar al Sulh and google it, you need to pay attention. And America and the rest of the world, your turn will come if the fourteen century progression is not halted. And forget the bad stuff in the bible and the bad things Christians did a long time ago, look at the calender, and please, none of this about how Islam will progress into the light just like Christianity did, their religion forbids it, Christianity does not, this is the Do unto others religion, it is not the Slay the Unbeliver whereever you may find him, it simply is not.
Can goodness arise from the Muslim masses? Only if they are separated from the evil ones who they submit to. What can the rest of us do? I do not think force alone will work, we in America with a single nuclear ICBM submarine could take out most if not all of the Islamic world, and I am not sure if they fully realize just what one submarine could do. But surely we are better than that, but Islam must be confronted, this Final Crusade must happen, and reasonable people must realize that the current path is perilious and it is lunacy to just let things evolve. Islam needs to be confronted with what it is and that it is NOT COMPATIBLE with other religions and so if they are to go to Europe or here then certain understandings and safeguards need to put into place. It simply is not fair to decent innocent people to let such evil as Muhammod Atta and the Blind Sheik come here in the name of multiculturalism and sensitivity. This is rubbish and it is suicide. The mantra "know your enemy" is germane. And Islam as such is the enemy of all others.
#226From the Times Online:
Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’
One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire nonMuslim world was intent on destroying Islam. Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against nonMuslim lands.
Mr Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism. The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
[.....]These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.
#227Vic Rubenfeld....Do I agree that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims? I asked you to give me something out of Islamic religous texts that forbids freedom of speech, and we’ll go from there. If you can't do that, then verses 2:190-193 sounds to me like it reads that violence would only be permitted if I were actively persecuting or attacking Muslims. So maybe there's a better example somewhere in the Koran that contradicts this statement? But then we get into that classic debate about what the true intention of the religous text is...just like the same age old debates that Christians engage in.
Der Alleswisser....I had a Spanish professor who was led away from his family and held for six months as a political prisoner in Chile. Have you heard of Augusto Pinochet(Catholic)? How about Charles Taylor (Baptist), who led the National Patriotic Front of Liberia? Lots of death and torture there. François "Papa Doc" Duvalier--Haiti (Catholic)...30,000 dead. Leopold II of Belgium(Catholic), owner of the Congo Free State. He relied on forced labor for the extraction of rubber and ivory from the Congo which resulted in the deaths, torture and maiming of millions of Congolese. Yakubu Gowon (Anglican? - Nigeria). His parents were missionaries, but that didn't stop him from leading the nation into a civil war in which his army raped, looted, and executed people while a million other civilians starved. You're obsessed with what happened in Smyrna in 1922, but the millions more who were killed in Christian Europe you consider an aberration and ancient history. Military dictatorships exist in both Islamic and Christian countries. Indonesia has more Muslims than any other nation in the world, and it has a dark history like every nation on the face of this planet....but they are a functioning democracy. And if you don't believe a democracy can survive in an Islamic nation, then let me hear you say George Bush was a fool to try and deliver it to Iraq.
Both Vic and Der...The only thing you guys have proven is that humanity is capable of hideous acts of depravity. Front page headlines that news is! I'm not asking you to like Islam, I'm asking that you not write them off as so evil that we can't fight together against our common enemy...the terrorists. We were allies with the communist against the fascists, weren't we? Like I asked before, if there are Muslims who would agree to certain basic principles, like free speech and no killing people just because they're Christian, Jewish, or Muslim...couldn't we work with those people and let God judge who was right and wrong on the rest when we reach the Golden Gates?
You evade questions that I hope will move the debate along, but you're not going to let that happen, are you? You don't want a debate...you've made up your minds. I am indeed the biggest fool here...am I wasting your time and mine?
#228Vic Rubenfeld....since you didn't get my point in post #222 about your point in post #218 which read, "As we know, Islam considers free speech to be un-Islamic oppression of Muslims", let me make sure you understand my question. Since I'm not as well versed on the Koran as you are, please help me find the passage you are talking about that would connect free speech to oppression, thus giving Muslims the a-ok to do me in via verses 2:190-193. I feel like I'm repeating myself...but if you ask me one more time if I "agree that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims" without clarifying this issue, I will know that I have officially become the dog who chases his own tail.
And let me be absolutely perfectly clear once again. I am not an expert on Islam. It's not even my fourth favorite religion. I am simply not convinced by the argument presented here that it is a religion of undisputable evil. I can't prove that there aren't evil Muslims...because it's a hard cold fact that there are evil people in this world and Muslims account for their fair share of them. Der Alleswisser has filled me in on more than enough of their atrocities...rehashing that territory isn't accomplishing anything. The text of the Koran has been presented as the keystone of this issue. Since Muslims can't even agree with each other on their religion any more than Christians can, I am perplexed as to how you consider your interpretation of the text to be the definitive one. Are you able to read the language it was originally written in, so that you are not at the mercy of translation?
#229We can never achieve anything without a Moral Imperative, and that must include appealing to the goodness of the human soul to do the right thing. This is made difficult by the teachings of the Quran, as it seems easy for many to absolve themselves of any effort at creative thinking as they buy into the notion that everything is preordained, and thus abandon any pursuit of intellectualism.
Islam certainly does not have a monopoly on evil. There have been the Pol Pots, Pinocets, .... and even Hitler came from the land of Beethoven, Haydn, Wagner, and a nation that has produced some of most intellectual and creative people. What is dangerous is that Germany was a nation of maybe 60 million and now you have Islam having no geographical borders and 1.5 billion of about 6.5 billion people on the planet. If there are say just 15% of them that are purely evil (and this is likely an underestimate), then with the nuclear genie coming more out of the bottle, you do the math, you should be very afraid.
#230But the biggest enemy is not Islam, it is ourselves. The Democrats simply are too naive on Islam, they do not understand it, they think all religions are the same, they do not understand its nuances and its monothesiasticness. They are letting Murdurers go from GiTMO in the spirit of lets just be nice and it will all work out. We have left Islam to itself for too long, and while it is not useful to rehash the atrocities of Islam, we must understand that they have produced no great leaders to lead them out of the darkness, and it is not reasonable to expect them to do so. We need to get reasonable people to come up with a action plan about how mosques operate and are overseen and under what restrictions Muslims who immigrate should be placed. They are simply not the same as Hindus, Protestants,.... and it is folly not to understand this. Condemn them all as evil? No, that would not be a moral imperative. But to make them understand that if they are to come here, they leave their religion home, at least the non-compatible aspects of Islam.
#231The doing of America will be Americas undoing. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" allows evil to come in the back door and to burn down the house. What I've seen these past years happening right before my eyes gives me understanding. Brother against brother and the persecution of Christians. I can now understand it happening in the not so distant future. The bellys of evil men will not be filled to all things good, is devoured. Will the saints just set back and watch the slaughter? I don't think so. Amazing to me Jamie is that you are only worried about free speech. You're neither hot nor cold
#232Azbastard....what are you talking about? My mention of free speech is in response to Vic Rubenfeld's assertion that it is a form of oppression according to Islamic teachings; so I've asked for clarification of something more specific to move the dialougue along. That said, free speech was a high priority to our founding fathers....and I make no apologies for the worrying that you've perceived.
Der Alleswisser...Like it or not, not everyone held at GiTMO was guilty. The place has come to be seen as a convenient spot for Americans to hold people indefinitely without any attempt at due process. That combined with photos showing Americans (however few) torturing prisoners in Iraq has tarnished our reputation and is inconsistant with the moral fabric that makes this nation strong. Take those detainees, try them, and let's move on. It is not about being nice and letting murderers go free. If you have some evidence that proves everyone held at Gitmo is guilty, let's hear it.
A Moral Imperative...I like it. You may believe it clashes with Islamic teachings, but we'll never know if people don't give the concept a chance. You know, I don't disagree about a lack of leadership in the Muslim world. But Republicans don't really have a strong leader right now either...that doesn't make them bad people. I am absolutely begging you...can you address my point that the long term effects of colonial rule by European nations and the arbitrary creation of nations might have contributed to the instability we still see today? So much fighting has occurred within the Islamic community, I honestly think all there potential great leaders were killed before we even knew who they were. I'm not asking that you agree, I'd justl like someone to engage the issue. Please?
#233Just in case I'm blamed again of dwelling on the past, understand that I'm not trying to give Christians or Europeans a guilt trip. It has been put to me time and time again that the troubles in the Middle East stem from Islamic doctrine found in the Koran. I'm saying third world Christian nations are in a mess too, so have trouble seeing a definitive correlation between religious doctrine and the destiny of a nation. There are other factors at play worthy of being considered.
It took a hundred years after the end of slavery for black Americans to break through the segregation walls and have a real opportunity at equality. But even then, a community held down for so long did not find success overnight. The case can even be made that with an African American in the White House, the journey is still not complete.
#234Vic Rubenfeld....since you didn’t get my point in post #222 about your point in post #218 which read, "As we know, Islam considers free speech to be un-Islamic oppression of Muslims", let me make sure you understand my question.
On the contrary, it's a very good question, and I'm happy to discuss it. First, however, I would like to complete the discussion we are already having. In #211 you appeared to take the posiition that jihad is non-violent. I have presented you with info from about.com, from the Hadith, and from an Islamic scholar, showing that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims. Are we in agreement on this at this time that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims?
#235The exact verses in the Quran that forbid free speech are not at my fingertips, but this anecdotal bit does point to the problem. It was a CNN or Fox interview of an Islamic lady with the title of something like "Special Consult or Expert of Middle Eastern Affairs" during the 2006 Israeli - Hezbolla conflict. She was asked "Why does the Islamic world criticize or even acknowledge that Hezbolla is using human sheilds in Lebanon?" She replied "It is forbidden for a Muslim to criticize another Muslim." This dichotomy of the Believer and the Unbeliever, the Kipling East - West "Never the twain shall meet."
If you watch "Suicide Killers," one hypothesis is the shame and despair of the Islamic world, and they cannot accept shame. This being I suppose the success of the Western world and the Muslim world being confronted with this, thus the Twin Towers are attacked, and Hollywood is hated for the images of America proliferated throughtout the world and this humiliates them. It is ironic and apparently they do not know how liberal and even America-hating some (much?) of Hollywood is.
Were all their leaders killed in the past? Don't think genetics works like that. It must be something else that surpresses free expression, and that must be the religion. And is it that somehow they know their despair and failure, and so just don't play to preserve honor? That is the teachings of the Quran: you do not need to think because Allah has pre-ordained everything, you are divenly ordained to be intellectually indolent??"
#236What will happen to Israel, surrounded by 300 million who hate them, and rising more rapidly than any other people, while Israel has perhaps 30 million? What does the rest of the world do, wait for something truelly horrible as 9/11 just did not do it, and then decide what to do? Suppose four bombs go off (nuclear) simultaneously in LA DC NY AND chicago? are we to just wait for this? what will be the democrats response? do they really think that another attack is not coming?
and gitmo >>>> serge trifkovic reported in defeating jihad that fifty gitmo releasees have been found killed on the battlefield and sean hannity on his program about a month ago said that the number is sixty one (my keyboard is acting up) >>>>> this does not include of course those who have not been killed and they no doubt have blood on their hands >>>> the democrats know this is not tracable back to them and even one murder is not acceptable >>>> let them tell the next of kin that it is >>>>> and it was all over the news a couple of weeks that a gitmo releasee is the al qaeda deputy commander in yemen> >>>>> the democrats have a rich history of pandering to lawyers and the "victims" the represent >>>> the spilled coffee smokers oj simpson trial stuff this is americas soft underbelly and the terrorists know it>>>> and the democratic party is the lawyer party >>>> a big party at the expense of the taxpayer >>>>>> the gitmo releasees just may be the karma that brings the floodlight onto the democrats that reveals their venality and corruption to all >>>> and iraq a democracy???? we will soon find out but those who study islam do not think so >>>> is it that any democracy in the islamic world will bring another islamic republic like iran?
#237Greed and the lust for power is what destroys a nation. The have and the have nots is what causes the conflict within. I watched the enginering of the roman empire the other night, and I was astounded at what they had done. That once great empire lays in waste, but their ideas live on. The devil deceives the world and with that deceit comes power, wisdom, lust, and greed. The world becomes a world full of covetnous people. They want more and more to satisfy their belly. America who broke away from colonial rule is facing total collapse. Was it because of the desire for freedom? God allowed America to be great, but now we have become a nation who wants to be politcally correct and to turn our back on God. Paul the apostle who had just witnessed wonderfull things and the resurrection of the first born of the Spirit of Christ was already saying the time is nigh and the end would be soon. Already saying be vigilent for he would come like a thief in the night.
#238Vic Rubenfeld....what we have here is a failure to communicate. Let's try again.
If, as according to you, the Koran says free speech = oppression, then yes, verses 2.190-193 would be hazardous to my health.
However, to prove this theory, I need the missing link....which is a verse in the Koran that indicates free speech is oppression. If such a verse doesn't exist, then I will have to assume the word oppression carries the traditional meaning that I'm familiar with. If it does exist, my position may be weaker than I thought and I will have to back up and reconsider my position.
What this person said or that person did is not relevant to this particular question, because we are going after specific text out of the Koran. If the Koran is held liable for the actions of its followers, we must hold the Bible to the same standard.
Der Alleswisser....if the lack of leadership in non-muslim third world nations also due to religion? Was the lack of leadership in the black community before MLK the fault of their religion?
Azbastard....you make the biggest case of all of why I'm wasting mine and everybody else's time here. I don't believe what you believe....so wish me luck on my highway to hell.
#239There's no failure ot communicate. You stated that jihad was non-violent - I provided lots of documentation to the contrary and asked if you now agreed that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims - and you have so far refused to answer.
#240Jamie, there are so many things about this religion that tells you that it is not a religion for the people, for goodness, for the right thing, it is a religon about the afterlife, not the here and now. It deals with the concept that life on Earth is miserable, and that the only purpose is to serve Allah, do his bidding and you will be rewarded with the dark - eyed hourises, and for the sexually deviant, as Muhammod was, the eternally young "youths". (Boys). There is no reason in this religion, and when one looks at the Islamic world, it seems that this religion somehow understands their despair and so the religion tries to make being Islamic somehow noble. The business of "we know we cannot contribute and that we have no intellectual contributions, but it is ok because Allah said so and we will be rewarded in the afterlife and you will burn and when your skin burns off Allah will give you some more skin so it can burn off too." And somehow this stuff sells????
On page XVIII of "The War of Ideas" by Whalid Phares you have: "Salafists, Wahabis, Fakfires, Tablighis, ans other Sunni Islamists reject the concept of pluaralism (this is the word Jamie, Pluralism) and radically oppose the rule of the people. Only Allah and his teachings, they postulate, are the basis for governance. The Shia-born Khumeinists condemn Western - style liberalism but co-opt concepts and words from international democratic institutions such as the idea of a republic. They installed an Islamic republic in Iran, but its mandate is believed to be divenly - inspired and not subject to the approval of civil society. Islamics from all schools of thought, and violent jihadists in particular, have an ideology of their own, based on ideas diametrically opposed to classical liberal democracys.......They plan to resume what they believe is a millennial project: world domination."
It is a religion of divenly - mandated lying (al Taqiyya), and Smyrna and the Armenians are just a small part of this. One huge lie is about the "Plight of the Palistinean People," and unfortunately these lies are mainstream American ideas. We unknowingly champion evil, throw money at it.
#241And now Barack Obama, going 180 degrees from the truth. And yes, Azbastard, we are in trouble, we voted for this pack of lofty rhetoric and airy platitiudes in droves, and only now maybe the indolent masses who did this are starting to realize what the abandonment of basic financial principles and generational theft means. Those who vote on the Dow Jones certainly do, every move he makes and the stock market plunges yet again. And Obama blames it on 8 years of Bush and makes no mention of Franklin Raines, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Franks, Gregory Meeks, Maxine "California Freeloading Waters, the Community Reinvestment Act, this cancer that Carter started, Acorn, and all of the rest of the Democrat pandering for votes. Dishonest, corrupt, and so yes, we are going the way of the Romans and yes, no one held a gun to our heads or marched us to the gas chambers, we chose and we chose corruption and decline.
But did the Europeans mess this up and are they to blame for the so - called Palistinean problem as you questioned, what about this Palistinean lie? On page 123 of "war of Ideas," there is: "In 1947, UN resolution 181 divided British - mandated Palistine into two states: Jewish and Arab. The Jews chose to call their entity Israel, accepting the UN decision. But on the other side, it was the Arab League, not Palestinian elected officials, who made the choice. .......Arab regimes rejected the UN resloluton and the emergence of a non-Arab, and non -Muslim state on what they considered an Arab and Muslim land.........The clearest ideological position against the existence of the Jewish state came from the Salafists, Whabis, Ikhwan, and other Takfiris: a Jewish sovereign entity (or any infidel entity, for that matter....) to the Islamists, the whole debate about what land, which borders, when the Jews settled, and where it is is simply irrelevent. Any territory, affirmed the docrtinaires of fundamentalism from Najd to Cairo, that has been under the caliiphate at any time not only cannot become a non-Muslim state, but also should report to the future caliphate.
#242The jihadi position is not about the unfairness of removing Palestinian populations and replacing them with Jewish ones, it is about an intangible mabd'a aqa'idee (doctrinal principle): land that was once ruled by the laws of Allah cannot be ruled by other laws afterwards......The same principle would apply elsewhere: French Algeria, Spain, Kashmir, China's Singkiang, Chechnya, Bsonia, Kosovo, and beyond....The Arab-Israeli conflict isn't about the fate of the Palestinians, but the purification of of Palestine as a Muslim land from invading kuffar. Even if Muslim rulers strike deals or peace treaties with Israel, including the return of lands, these deals or treaties are not valid. ..... What many intellectuals in the West have never been able to understand or explain to their public is the total, relentless, and irreversible attitude of Islamic fundamentalism regarding Israel and any other similar entity perceived as occupying lands in the middle of an area defined as Islamic by the jihadists."
And so we continue to elect idiots like Carter, Clinton, and now Obama who simply have not done the required reading. Nevermind that the Israelites were there first, this religion is pure evil, it does not want to be reasoned with, it does not want to be compromised with, it wants to be obeyed. Watch a segment in "Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam," and you will see a short clip of Tony Blair which reveals he know nothing about Islam, but he cuts off the clip to go talk to some Islamic clerics. Nothing but lies he was told I'm sure, and he did not realize it. Even GWBush said in a speech after 9/11 that Islam was a religion of peace, but I believe he knows the truth and simply said that as part of that "Moral Imperative," which lasted only a bit.
Anyone who reads and fully understands the above knows that this is a death struggle between Israel and Islam for now, and eventually the rest of us will have to deal with Islam.
#243Islam is the antichrist. It's beyond me how out of their own mouths they say death to Israel, America, and now Christians, and nobody hears it. When Jerusalem is surrounded by her enemies know the end is nigh. These are very troubling times. Europe will be burning and islam lit the fire. When I saw the planes hit the world trade centers, I thought who ever did this just cut their own throats. The moderate Muslims are just like the Christians who keep the pews warm. I have been away from the Lord for 28 years. Just in the last couple of months, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, I have been welcomed back in the fold. I'm soaking the word up like a sponge. I'm not like a gargoyle, but the nicest guy you would ever want to meet. I'm not full of hate or condemnation. I love my fellow man and treat all with respect. I pray for wisdom so that I and my family are not caught up in the lies that are being told my government. I dont want the mark. I just read this morning how they are looking to put radio chips in our drivers license.
#244Vic Rubenfeld.....#219..the USC link you recommended to me provides the (religious fighting) reference in the Sahil Bukhari translation, but the Sahih Muslim translation says...
He (the inquirer) said: What next? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Jihad (struggle to the utmost) in the cause of Allah.
"Struggle to the utmost" can mean a lot of things, depending on your interpretation of it. Your about.com reference lists the names for regions Muslims label as territories of chaos and territories of peace...and what a shocker, they consider areas devoted as lands of peace. Your next statement "Islamic theology declares war against regions where Islam does not dominate" is your statement, and not the statement of verses 2.190-193 in the Koran. Translations, interpretations, and verses out of context...seems to me like any other religous text to me.
"As we know, Islam considers free speech to be un-Islamic oppression of Muslims". Consider me daft, because I don't know that. Bring me the verse that connects free speech to oppression. If you can do that, then verses2.190-193 would not protect us.
Since Muslims can't agree on the meaning of the word "jihad" anymore than Christians can agree on the nature of the "Holy Trinity", I cannot agree with your statement "the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and subjugatge non-Muslims". I can agree that someone can interpret it that way if they want to, but there's ample evidence online that not all muslims accept that interpretation. However, your Islamophobic agenda will most likely prevent you from giving any postive views of that religion any consideration.
#245Azbastard...you are so wrapped up in your own self rightousness, I have trouble believing you are truly "soaking the word up like a sponge". Not full of hate or condemnation? No... but people come to this website and spill out venomous attacks that accuse Muslims of being "Satan's people" and you sit silent as if to say "amen, brother." Muslims are not just 19 terrorists that flew planes into the world trade center. They are living and breathing men, women, and children of God's creation...no different in that respect than you and me. You would do well to remember that it is not you who will be sitting by the right hand of God on Judgement Day.
You are the worst example of Christianity...the kind that preaches "If any man or religion does not belive this, then he will feel the wrath of God". Coming to Jesus out of fear that you will be destroyed is not the message he gave us. It is this very kind of language that so many here claim comes from Islam.
#246Vic Rubenfeld....In my quest to find the meaning of the word "Jihad", I thought what better place to look than the dictionary? Here's what I found....
An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels. A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke” .
[Arabic jihÄd, from jahada, to strive.]
So maybe a holy war...maybe spiritual struggle? Once again, I am at the mercy of interpretation. Sigh.
#247Der Alleswisser....in post #240, you write "One huge lie is about the "Plight of the Palistinean People". What's the lie that you claim mainstream America believes? A website I found called Israelnationalnews.com had a headline from Nov. 2008 titled....
Poll: Across the Board, Americans Support Israel
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz
So sympathies being squarely on the side of the Israelis, I would argue that the average American is not familiar with the plight of the Palestinians at all.
I don't think Israel is the "bad guy"...but if we don't make an effort to hear out both sides, we make peace in the Middle East that much more difficult to achieve.
#248Jamie...By your words it shows you are pretty much out of step in whats happening under your nose. They also speak volumes on where you stand.
#249It is true that we must as a people strive to bring out the best in the Muslim masses. However, their history is very troubling, their educational systems provide them with no useful job skills, just Quranic stuff, and what useful are you going to do with that. (Of course, our public schools are becoming increasingly useless, everyone a victim and nothing but PCness, but I digress). The biggest experiment with Islam is Iraq, and to see what happens when we leave. Will evil prevail, or will Maliki be able to form a consensus and run a nation that seeks the betterment of his people? GW Bush may go down as a heroic and great president, much to the dismay of the Democrats, who hoped so badly for him to fail there, and even pronounced gleefully that he had.
What is Jihad, is it the struggle for one's betterment or is it a call for unprovoked attacks against Nonbelievers and is it solely to propogate the religion? On page 299 of "The Legacy of Jihad," by Andrew Bostom, you have: "It may thus be true that the object of jihad as prescribed and enjoined in the Koran, was not the direct propagation of the Faith: but there can be little doubt that the extension of Islamic rule was one of its main objects. With regard to Arabia itself, there is no questioning the fact that war was enjoined on the Moslems till Arabia became wholly believing. Whether the motives which lay at the back of the conquest of Arabia for Islam by force of arms, were religious or were political, the fact remains that the Arabs were given the alternative of Islam or the sword. No tribute was to be accepted from an Arab, and any Arab apostatising was to be killed off-hand.......'Let there be no compulsion in religion' preceded and was abrograted by the Verse of the Sword (Sura 9:5). And the command in sura 2:186-187 to fight against those who fight but not to transgress by attacking first, was, according to Zamakhshary and others, abrogated by the command 'Fight aginst all the Idolators' (Sura 9:36 --- don't forget that the chronological final chapter of the Koran was the ninth and so it abrogates all others)."
#250On page 295 of the same book there is "Jihad is the taking up of arms in defense of Islam when an attack is made on it, and jihad is only lawful when such an attack is made." The problem with that is that bin Laden claims that 9/11 was in response to an attack by America (Gulf War 1), and he also claims that Allah has given him permission to kill I think the number is 30 million innocents. The intransigence of Islam is leading to the Clash of Civilizations as named by Samuel Huntington in the 1990s. This unless the silent masses assert themselves, and can they do so without our help? We should not sit back and wait for more horrible things to occur, we need to be proactive and confront Islam with its incompatibility. Or do we wait around for the Islamic Nuclear Pearl Harbor before the liberals are swept aside as they were in 1941?
And the Palestinian thing, I dare say that Islam is very good at proclaming the victims of their aggression the aggressors. Most seem to think Muslims were the victims of the Crusades while it was and is the exact opposite, and most seem to think the Palestinians are victims, and ignore that they voted for Hamas, and ignore that we have thrown money at this problem for the last 50 years and have nothing to show for it.
#251Islam always portrays itself as the victim, there is nothing said that is true about this in our public schools and universities in the spirit of PCness. Are they Satan's People? Collectively, yes, but individually, no, most, as Earnest Renan said 150 years ago, are the first victims of Islam. And our "Muslim Allies." Does anyone really think Turkey or Egypt is an ally? They are Islamic, and we are not, and that is the long and short of it.
For example, some talk of how Indonesia was a model of democracy and goodness in the Islamic world. On page 213 of "The Sword of the Prophet," by Serge Trifkovic, there is:"The precursor of it all was the murderous terror of Indonesioan Muslims against Christians in East Timor, unknown in America although Washington tolerated ex president Suharto's carnage on a scale worthy of Pol Pot. By 1989, Amnesty International estimated that Indonesia had murdreed 200,000 East Timorese, otu of a population of 600,000 - 700,000. Suharto was not a devout Muslim but he nevertheless used Islamic fanatics as alies in various campaogns: notably against Chinese communists and their alleged accomplices that killed over 500,000 people, many of them Christians, in 1965. Indonesia's treatment of religious minorities had already been tested in West Papua.
#252Suharto's anticommunist credentials enabled him to preserve the support of the US government while he terrorized the inhabitants of Dutch New Guinea, which was handed over to Indonesia in 1962 andits name changed to Irian Jaya. The tribal people of West Papau hd nothing in common with Indonesia, ecept that both had previously been ruled by Holland. They are Melanesiaons and not Indo-Malays, and Christians or animists. Under Suharto the army rounded up all the children and made them and forced them to attend state schools. Passive resistance to Indonesian control was widespread, and zealous Muslim officers responded by ordering the soldiers to kill the villager's pigs, an important element in their basic economy. They soon proceeded to killing people: by September 1973, over 30,000 civilains had been killed by Indonesian troops, the number rising to an estimated 100,000 by 1990. The story was in the US media, and uncommented upon by the Nixon Administration."
So there you have it, our media did not want to "Offend an Ally," exactly the same thing that happened to the Greeks and Armenians of Anatolia and finally Smyrna. If there were a Day of Reckoning, know you well that we have blood on our hands.
#253Azbastard...I stand by my words. If I'm a fool...so be it. I would rather be a fool than a hypocrite. People didn't follow Jesus around to hear about the wrath of God falling upon their enemies. And I'm certainly not interested in hearing it from you. You have said nothing here that indicates to me that you understand the message that Jesus left for us. But that's just my opinion...and not really for me to judge.
Der Alleswisser....Here we go again with the numbers. You know, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Muslims kill Christians....it's a fact. It's also a fact that Muslims kill other Muslims, and Christians kill other Christians, and Christians kill Muslims too. 200,000 Muslims systematically murdered in Bosnia between 1992 and 1995. You say it's true that we as a people must strive to bring out the best in the Muslim masses. We won't do that by following Bush's lead. We were attacked by Al Qaeda, and he let Osama Bin Ladin slip through our fingers into Pakistan, then turned around and invaded a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11. Hussein commited atrocities..but the collateral damage of 100,000 dead civilians did not make the best of impressions on the Muslim masses. That said, I think Bush did what he thought was best for our nation. But we had four aces (in the form of worldwide support for our cause) when we invaded Afghanistan, but Bush folded and put all his money on Iraq. Forgive me if I don't feel foolish for not thinking Bush will be as highly praised by history as you do.
#254Vic Rubenfeld.....#219..the USC link you recommended to me provides the (religious fighting) reference in the Sahil Bukhari translation, but the Sahih Muslim translation says…
He (the inquirer) said: What next? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Jihad (struggle to the utmost) in the cause of Allah.
Jamie, it's great that you are starting to go to the Islamic source text, so that you can find out if your understanding of Islam matches up with the facts.
The error you make here is in thinking that Bukhari and Muslim are two translations of an identical document. In fact, they are two separate and unique documents.
In my quest to find the meaning of the word "Jihad", I thought what better place to look than the dictionary? Here’s what I found....
An individual’s striving for spiritual self-perfection. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels. A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke” .[Arabic jihÄd, from jahada, to strive.]
So maybe a holy war...maybe spiritual struggle? Once again, I am at the mercy of interpretation.
As the definition you cite shows, the word "jihad" sometimes is used to refer to an inner struggle, sometimes is used to refer to violent war. I have documented this previously in our discussions. From #219:
By one estimate, fully 97% of the references to "jihad" in the Bukhari Hadith, are violent; only 3% are about non-violent inner struggle:
...what is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? Let’s turn to Bukhari (the Hadith) for the answer, as he repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari 97% of the references to jihad are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle.
Jamie, I have shown you info from about.com, from the Hadith, and from an Islamic scholar, showing that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims. Do you now agree that this is the case?
#255Im confused. I don't know how saying that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, makes me a hypocrite. Is it because I count Islam as my enemy? Is it because I don't like what I see happening in this world today? Lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blashemers, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. This simple truth will cause the saints to be persecuted. Will you stand up in our defense or rejoice saying, we got what we deserved.
#256There is nothing wrong about being religious unless your religion tells you to harm others since they do not believe the same things you do. Whether or not Islam is in violation of this is the crux of the matter, as some dismiss Islam's violations by pointing out (true in the distant past, although there have been aberrant departures such as Hitler and Pol Pot in the last century that were about radical ideologies and not religion) that Christianity has been non-tolerant. Is Islam compatible, or is it dangerous? Gotta run.
#257Vic Rubenfeld...to conclude that Muslims are instructed to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims completely depends on the interpretation of the word Jihad. To say, as you do, that it sometimes refers to "inner struggle" and sometimes refers to "violent war" is an interesting choice of wording. It implies that it means both of these things to all Muslims, but my research indicates that some Muslims reject the definition that calls for aggressive actions against non-believers. I have not read all of the material, but what I have read seems to authorize violence as a means of defense against oppression. Therefore, I feel that those Islamic scholars who call for peaceful "jihad" are not so out on the fringe of their own religion that I would not be able to accept them as representatives of that religion. To hammer home your definition of Jihad would only serve to distance ourselves from people that I believe America can work with to find peace in the Middle East. It seems to me you're more interested in discrediting the entire religion than engaging these potential allies against our common enemy.
Der Alleswisser....How was Hitler an aberration? It doesn't matter if he was religious or not, he was surrounded by millions of Christians who either carried out his instructions or sat on their hands and watched it all happen. And are we to consider the atrocities against Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo to be the distant past?
Azbastard....Of course you're confused. You are a hypocrite because you hide behind Jesus as a defense for attacking your enemies. Your words reveal your own pride..." This simple truth will cause the saints to be persecuted. Will you stand up in our defense or rejoice saying, we got what we deserved". You don't engage discussion...you regurgitate Scripture that you don't even understand.
#258...to conclude that Muslims are instructed to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims completely depends on the interpretation of the word Jihad.
Given that the majority of the references to jihad in Bukhari refer to violence, as I noted previously in this thread, how can you deny that the word jihad often refers to violence?
Given the following, which I quoted previously in this thread, from about.com, how can you argue that Islam does not call for Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims?
A crucial distinction made in Islamic theology is that between dar al-harb and dar al-islam. To put it simply, dar al-harb (territory of war or chaos) is the name for the regions where Islam does not dominate, where divine will is not observed, and therefore where continuing strife is the norm. By contrast, dar al-islam (territory of peace) is the name for those territories where Islam does dominate, where submission to God is observed, and where peace and tranquility reign.
Given the following, which I quoted previously in this thread, from the Times Online, how can you argue that Islam does not call for Muslims to engage in battle with non-Muslims?
Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’
One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire nonMuslim world was intent on destroying Islam. Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against nonMuslim lands.
Mr Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism. The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
[.....]These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.
#259In Serge Trifkovic's "Defeating Jihad" he states several sources that say that we bombed the wrong side in Bosnia/Kosovo. This because Clinton and the Democrats (like Madeline Albright, and yes, she and the other Democrats of Clinton are back, in the spirit of Change) were just so giddy about buddying up with Islam and convincing them (????, no, these Democrats just do not understand Islam, so shallow are they) to all of a sudden after fourteen centuries of aggressive inertia decide they like us. Political folly. And he also claims that the so-called genocide and massacres were overblown by Islamics, as they have had great success using Carter and then Clinton as useful fools. Carter's idiot advisors told him that the Allyatolla had "Ghandi-like" allure, so the stupid things fostered his removal and brought us the Islamic Republic of Iran. Islamics are history's grand masters of portraying themselves as victims, just like calling everyone "Crusaders" when it is in fact they who a are the aggressors. Recommend you read this book, to lay out Bosnia, and all the others, as it is not really what the Quran says that is important, it is what Islam does.
It was not just smyrna, it is everywhere they go, and the Democrats let them come here with no restrictions. And let them go from GITMO after being fed lies about how they are just innocent victims. Some may have been, but get the lawyers out of this, the OJ Simpson stuff just promotes evil. This nation has a lawyer disease.
#260(above I am refering to Carter insuinuating the Shah's overthrow for "Human Rights," turning on an ally in favor of an enemy, just like Britain, Italy, and France turned on Greece in favor of Turkey for the oil in 1922).
Read in the same book about how in 1974 the Islamics invaded Cyprus and soon all Christians in the parts of Cyprus they occupied were murdured or escaped. And are the Greeks mad at us for this, yes they are, just like Smyrna we did it again "for our Turkish ally." With more people as time goes by you would think that we would have smarter people to elect, but somehow this does not happen. Just like Walter Williams said, sitting in for Rush, "We today would never elect a James Madison, as he is too principled and in tune with the constitution," as we apparently only want handouts for our state/district/.... a big pork grab, and a dysfuntional political system. John McCain just said that 40% of the Pork in this supposed "bailout" was for Republicans. Disgraceful.
#261Vic Rubenfeld....We have limited time, so our arguments must be precise. We can quote people back and forth all day, just like I've quoted historical facts and figures back and forth with Der Alleswisser. The core of the issue is the text, which is susceptible to interpretation and translation.
Let's go back to a hadith from which you quoted "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s Cause." As far as I'm concerned, I've engaged in "religous fighting" with Azbastard right here! Yes...Muslims want everyone everywhere to worship Mohammed. Don't Christians want everyone to follow Jesus? Ahh...but the difference is that Christians don't use violence, right? Well, history tells a different story, as the conquering of nations played a huge role in spreading the message of Jesus across the globe (often to people we looked at as "savages"). But that's distant history, correct? What about today? I might suggest that huge oil profits are the perfect fuel for a neverending battle for power and control...but whatever the cause, Muslims have some serious issues that desperately need to be resolved. I've asserted that there is hope for Islam if we ally ourselves with Muslims who embrace the "inner struggle" meaning of Jihad, but you insist that the evidence contradicts that definition.
"dar al-harb (territory of war or chaos) is the name for the regions where Islam does not dominate." And? Calling us a territory of war and chaos might be insulting or simply condescending, but it's not inherently a threat. Azbastard has made it clear he views his beliefs superior to mine...I'd like to think that as a fellow American he'd run to my rescue if someone tried to oppress me, but I think it just as likely that he'd stick as many of his religous beliefs into our laws if half given a chance. Why should oppression by him worry me more than oppression by them? Ironic too...there are so many political issues that many members of both faiths agree about....opposition to abortion, homophobia, censorship(burning books and whatnot), and the constant itch to ban alcohol.
Life...please give a definition of that word that will be accepted by everybody. You can't do it. Words are such a poor method of communication. But I will play this game a little longer, and explore the meaning of Jihad with you.
#262Using the link you provided, and searching the word Jihad, let's look at the many examples that come up. I am picking these at random....
Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
Narrated Aisha (mother of the faithful believers):
I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah." 'Aisha added: Ever since I heard that from Allah's Apostle I have determined not to miss Hajj.
Holy battles....hmmm...violent. But I can think of plenty of battles that Christians have fought to protect land they considered Holy. It doesn't make them bad people. "Holy battles and Jihad"...hmmm....does this mean they're not the same thing? Otherwise, it's a bit redundant, eh? Let's move on..."the best and most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj". Ok, so we can officially let the women suicide bombers know that a hike to Mecca would be far more pleasing to Allah than fighting in a battle, no matter how holy it is.
#263Vic Rubenfeld....trust me...these are random...I pledge to stick to my own rule.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 113:
Narrated Muslim from Abu Aqil from Abu Al-Mutawakkil An-Naji:
I called on Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari and said to him, "Relate to me what you have heard from Allah's Apostle ." He said, "I accompanied him on one of the journeys." (Abu Aqil said, "I do not know whether that journey was for the purpose of Jihad or 'Umra.") "When we were returning," Jabir continued, "the Prophet said, 'Whoever wants to return earlier to his family, should hurry up.' We set off and I was on a black red tainted camel having no defect, and the people were behind me. While I was in that state the camel stopped suddenly (because of exhaustion). On that the Prophet said to me, 'O Jabir, wait!' Then he hit it once with his lash and it started moving on a fast pace. He then said, 'Will you sell the camel?' I replied in the affirmative when we reached Medina, and the Prophet went to the Mosque along with his companions. I, too, went to him after tying the camel on the pavement at the Mosque gate. Then I said to him, 'This is your camel.' He came out and started examining the camel and saying, 'The camel is ours.' Then the Prophet sent some Awaq (i.e. an amount) of gold saying, 'Give it to Jabir.' Then he asked, 'Have you taken the full price (of the camel)?' I replied in the affirmative. He said, 'Both the price and the camel are for you.' ''
You got me on this one...the Prophet undeniably hit the camel with his lash. Seriously...they seem to be on a journey...but it doesn't sound like a conquering army to me. Umra would be a pilgrimage to Mecca (different from Hajj?). Jihad could be interpreted as a spiritual journey if I simply went by this hadith.
#264Der Alleswisser....You say "it is not really what the Quran says that is important, it is what Islam does". Yep...lots of examples of Muslims doing bad things. Lots of examples of Christians doing bad things. Even Republicans do bad things on occasion. People everywhere seem to do bad things. What's up with that?
Serge Trifkovic denies the Srebrenica Massacre. Following is a clip from Wikipedia concerning that incident.
The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II.[8] In 2004, in a unanimous ruling on the "Prosecutor v. Krstić" case, the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) located in The Hague ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was genocide,[9] the Presiding Judge Theodor Meron stating:
By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity.[10]
Some people deny the Holocaust. It's easy to do. All you have to do is say, "that didn't happen". I certainly can't prove it happened. I wasn't there. I doubt you were there. Guess it all depends on who you believe, which might be predetermined by what we want to believe.
#265Volume 4, Book 52, Number 217:
Narrated Yali:
I participated in the Ghazwa of Tabuk along with Allah's Apostle and I gave a young camel to be ridden in Jihad and that was, to me, one of my best deeds. Then I employed a laborer who quarrelled with another person. One of them bit the hand of the other and the latter drew his hand from the mouth of the former pulling out his front tooth. Then the former instituted a suit against the latter before the Prophet who rejected that suit saying, "Do you expect him to put out his hand for you to snap as a male camel snaps (vegetation)?"
Ummm....hmmmm....honestly, I don't know how anyone created a religion out of this stuff. But the "Ghazwa of Tabuk" part caught my attention. I searched it and came up with the following....
The Campaign to Tabuk was the result of conflict with the Roman Empire that had started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known as Zat-u-Talah (or Zat-i-Itlah). Only Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari the head of the delegation succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Besides this Shurahbll bin Amr the Christian governor of Busra who was directly under the Roman Caesar had also put to death Haritli bin Umair the ambassador of the Holy Prophet who had been sent to him on a similar minion.
These events convinced the Holy Prophet that a strong action should be taken in order to make the territory adjacent to the Roman Empire safe and secure for the Muslims.
Jihad here does mean war....but if the story is accurate, the war is a retaliation, and thus defensive in nature. Perhaps the story is not accurate, but if they acted on bad intelligence, are they any worse than we were in Iraq?
#266Narrated Al-Walid bin 'Aizar:
I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, "The owner of this house." he pointed to 'Abdullah's house, "said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?" He replied, 'To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.' " 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, "To be good and dutiful to one's parents," 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." 'Abdullah added, "The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more."
Morning prayers? Not violent. Dutiful to one's parents...What Christian would argue with that? "To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause"....I think this does mean the spreading of Islam. But I still don't see it as necessarily violent. By itself it doesn't exclude violence, but of course I've cited verses before that specify violence is only acceptable when battling oppression.
I can't condemn Muslims for wanting to spread Islam anymore than I can begrudge missionaries who seek converts to Christianity. As long as they don't engage in unwarranted aggressive actions, we have no quarrel.
#267Volume 9, Book 93, Number 555:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Allah guarantees (the person who carries out Jihad in His Cause and nothing compelled him to go out but Jihad in His Cause and the belief in His Word) that He will either admit him into Paradise (Martyrdom) or return him with reward or booty he has earned to his residence from where he went out."
If someone gave their life to spread the word of Jesus, they too would be a martyr. There is nothing here that specifically instructs someone to physically attack someone unprovoked. Unless you define Jihad as violent, pre-emptive strikes against unbelievers. I suppose we see here what we want to see.
#268Vic Rubenfeld...I'm not sure I see the logic of demanding that "jihad" is violent. There are Muslims who reject that definition of the word, and I don't see why we don't let them make that claim. Why engage them in an argument? What does it benefit us? If people follow your lead and view Islam as beyond redemption, then we turn this whole discussion into "us" against "them". Why can't we have some of "them" on our side?
You want me to agree with you that Islam calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-Muslims, and you won't move on in the discussion until I have answered that question to your satisfaction. I have given the exploration of that issue serious effort in hopes that you might address other issues (specifically the ones I have just reiterated above). I fear that you won't allow that to happen, but I hope that you will prove that fear unfounded.
#269Jamie,
Your argument has been reduced to pretending I haven't presented the facts to which I have asked you to respond. You have ignored this:
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah’s cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
...because there is no way you can pretend that this refers to a peaceful inner struggle. ("Sariya" means army unit.)
You ignored this:
From the Times Online:
Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’
One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire nonMuslim world was intent on destroying Islam. Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against nonMuslim lands.
Mr Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism. The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
[.....]These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.
...because it would be absurd for you to disagree with an internationally-known Islamic scholar regarding your view of Islam.
You have expressed an opinion that you are able to maintain only by ignoring the facts.
#270Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah’s cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
Vic Rubenfeld....I have ignored nothing. There is nothing here that specifies that these holy battles are to be fought as an offensive action. I have indicated text in the Koran that very specifically instructs violence is only to be taken in defense against oppression. Not as noble as turning the other cheek, but not a call for terrorist acts against innocent people.
As for Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani, what is written about him by The Times Online may or may not be true. It's not relevant to me what he says, because I know for a fact that not all Muslims interpret Jihad as condoning terrorism. Religion is always open to interpretation. The Pope is a Christian scholar, but does he speak for all Christians? I have asked that you recognize those Muslims who reject terrorism, and accept violence only as a defensive measure. You have totally ignored that suggestion, and instead clung fast to your efforts to discredit the entire religion. If you want to have an "our religion is right and yours is wrong" discussion, then fine. But if your concern is for helping our cause in the war against terror, then I am asking you what harm is there in reaching out a hand to Muslims that prove themselves to have peaceful intentions? Perhaps they are fewer in number than they should be, but they do exist. I, with my limited knowledge of Islam, have searched them out and read their websites to educate myself during this debate. I have also come across some that are not peaceful...I don't deny that we have an enemy out there.
If George Bush can recognize those who follow Islam as a peaceful religion, then why can't you? If it is pure evil, then why are we trying to help people in Iraq in Afghanistan? Why would you not just call for all their heads on a stick like Joseph? Maybe because you're not a barbarian...I believe you have better sense than that. I am not here to sing the praises for a religion I don't even like. I am asking that you focus less on bashing their religion and more on searching out those with moral principles worthy of being embraced as allies in the war against terror. To this you have responded with absolute silence.
#271As for Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani, what is written about him by The Times Online may or may not be true.
When your argument is reduced to alleging that Usmani's book, "Islam and Modernism," is misquoted in the Times, and to asserting that "It’s not relevant to me what he says", you are documenting that you are ignoring the facts.
There is nothing here that specifies that these holy battles are to be fought as an offensive action
From the Koran:
[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Do you now agree that the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims? You're going to have a lot of ignoring to do to continue to maintain the reverse.
It’s not relevant to me what he says, because I know for a fact that not all Muslims interpret Jihad as condoning terrorism.
If your view is that not all Muslims and/or former Muslims condone terrorism, that is certainly true. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Nonie Darwish, Walid Shoebat, and the late Tashbih Sayyed all come to mind. However, all of these people maintain that the Koran does call on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims. For example, from Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
On the issues of holy war (jihad), apostasy and the treatment of women, the Koran and Sunna are clear. It is the obligation of every Muslim to spread Islam to unbelievers first through dawa, or proselytizing, then through jihad, if the unbelievers refuse to convert. It is the obligation of the unbelievers to accept Islam. Exempted from this edict of conversion are the people of the book: Christians and Jews. Both peoples have a choice. They may adopt Islam and enjoy the same rights as other Muslims, or they may stick to their book and lead the life of a dhimmi (lower citizen). Legally, the rights of the dhimmi are not equal to those of a Muslim. For instance, a Muslim man may take a Jewish or Christian wife, but Jews and Christians are not allowed to marry Muslim women. If a Christian or a Jew kills a Muslim man, they should be killed immediately. In contrast, the blood of a Muslim should never be shed in recompense for the blood of Christians or Jews.
#272Vik Rubenfeld...
According to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. Going by this, my answer is no... I do not agree that the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
At its worst, the Koran is contradictory. It is for Muslims to debate between themselves, just as Christians debate the inerrancy of the Bible. I have made my case as best I can that we should support (and seek as allies) Muslims who reject terrorism as an acceptable form of jihad, and that attempting to discredit their entire religion is counterproductive in our struggle (fight) for world peace. If it is not good enough for you, then so be it. Repeatedly hurling quotes at each other accomplishes nothing. BTW...specifically, I did not say the Times misquoted anybody...I wrote, "what is written about him by The Times Online may or may not be true." If it is true, then the Usami does not qualify as a potential ally.
I wonder, do you ever worry that someone will take your words and turn them into action? Your argument that Islam is an evil religion could be used as a justification for violence, which is how terrorists brainwash new recruits (America as the Great Satan). It's not that I'm accusing you of inciting violence....but you aren't exactly Ghandi either. The "love thy enemy" message is well camouflaged here.
I don't agree with Islam, I am not a pacifist, and I am by no means a bleeding heart liberal. I believe covert operational strikes against terrorist would have been less costly than engaging in nation building (if Islam is not compatible with Democracy as many here assert, what's the point anyway?). I think we've done a very weak job in marketing our values and message to people in the Arab nation (certain not equal to our efforts to reach the general public that was held behind the Iron Curtain for so long). I think listening to our allies and working with them and not trying to dictate "our way or the highway" would have been more beneficial. And last but not least, cutting off communication and not leaving diplomatic options open never helps push us any closer to peace.
In short, I think you've missed the "big picture".
#273Thinking about it, I want people to understand what I mean about covert operational strikes. It doesn't mean launching the occasional missile at suspected targets as Clinton did. His actions in this regard were lame...certainly weak and ineffective.
Now, if Obama were to convince the Pakistani government to let us cross their border without advertising it to everybody and worked in conjunction to put the squeeze on Osama, that might produce some results. Afghanistan is the only place I can think of where taking down the whole government may have been necessary....and even that might be debatable.
Just wanted to clarify a little on that.
#274...we should support (and seek as allies) Muslims who reject terrorism as an acceptable form of jihad...
This is a good goal, and I support it. In order to achieve this, it is necessary to be aware of the facts about Islam.
According to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. Going by this, my answer is no... I do not agree that the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
At its worst, the Koran is contradictory. It is for Muslims to debate between themselves
This is what you and I would call a reasonable view. However, it is not the current view of Islamic scholars. The verses of the Koran are considered to be the direct word of Allah as delivered to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. As such, it is not considered possible among Islamic scholars for Muslims to accept some verses and reject other verses, (with the exception of the principal of abrogation - see below). Mohammed, considered the perfect man in Islam, spent 20 years in wars of aggression. Therefore your view of the Koran, while reasonable, is considered inaccurate by the majority of Muslim scholars today.
Regarding abrogation, many Islamic scholars believe that when there is a contradiction in the Koran, the later verse abrogates the earlier verse. The principal of abrogation is founded on a verse from Sura 2, the same Sura you quoted from. From the Koran, 2.106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
The more peaceful verses in the Koran, such as 2.256 which you quoted, are from the earlier period in which Mohammed was living in Mecca. Later, he went to Medina and became a powerful warlord. The verses in the Koran dating from the Medina period are the more violent ones, and they are considered to abrogate the earlier, peaceful verses.
Your wish to construct a view of the Koran under which violent jihad can be rejected, is excellent. There are people today who are seeking to achieve this. Daniel Pipes has identified a line of thought, originated by a Muslim, which enables Muslims to do just that.
...note the original thinking of the Sudanese theologian Mahmud Muhammad Taha (1909-85). Taha built his interpretation on the conventional division of the Koran into two. The initial verses came down when Muhammad was a powerless prophet living in Mecca, and tend to be cosmological. Later verses came down when Muhammad was the ruler of Medina, and include many specific rulings. These commands eventually served as the basis for the Shari'a, or Islamic law.
Taha argued that specific Koranic rulings applied only to Medina, not to other times and places. He hoped modern-day Muslims would set these aside and live by the general principles delivered at Mecca. Were Taha's ideas accepted, most of the Shari'a would disappear, including outdated provisions concerning warfare, theft, and women. Muslims could then more readily modernize.
Taha was executed in 1985, by the Islamic government in Sudan, for these views, exemplifying how such a view of Islam has yet to take hold among the majority of Muslim authorities today.
#275Vik Rubenfeld...As you say, Mahmud Muhammad Taha may not represent the majority of Muslim scholars. What I'd like to know is how are we backing up Muslims like Taha? Your efforts to convince me that the Koran calls for the killing and/or subjugation of non-believers suggested that Islam is evil at it's root. 1)this validates to people like Joseph and Azbastard that Muslim scholars who embrace a violent interpretation of Jihad are the true standard bearers of Islam. 2) It is a stab in the back of Muslim allies like Taha.
You say Mohammad spent 20 years in wars of aggression. I have also read the opinion that those wars were spent fighting off Pagan and Christian aggressions. I've asked Der Alleswisser to give me a total list of the dead left in the wake of Christian verses Islamic nations. If he were to take the task to heart...we probably wouldn't hear from him for a while, and if the count were done without bias, I'd be inclined to believe Christianity would have the higher total. Again...if you are right about Mohammad as the aggressive conquerer, how have you helped the cause of people like Taha by spreading that message? Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem more interested in proving me wrong than Taha right.
I have tried to address the issue of how we go about winning the War on Terror. How you and I interpret the Koran is not as important as the question, how do Muslims interpret the Koran? For every Christian that you convince Islam is pure evil, you distance us further from potential allies. If we were purely discussing theology, my words would not be so forgiving to Islam. I don't embrace the Koran as a model for how to live my life, and make no recommendations as to what religion anyone here should follow. However, when people seek to demonize an entire religion while totally forgiving the misdeeds of their own culture, I'm inclined to point out the hypocrisy of that argument.
So I still have no answer from anybody here who sees Islam as incapapble of maintaining anything productive as to how they reconciliate that notion with their support for Bush's attempts at nation building in Iraq? By their own beliefs, is that effort not futile? As we withdraw from Iraq, I hope the recent trend towards stability holds, and that history will applaud our efforts there and forgive the mistakes made by invading in the first place.
There have been no comments made for/against my suggestions in the last paragraph of my post #272 as to how best to proceed in the War on Terror. Maybe I'm on the wrong website...is this discussion purely theological?
If you don't hear back from me...maybe you'll discuss it amongst yourselves. I am having computer problems and may not be back...we'll see.
#276Let's hope GW Bush was right on Iraq, and yes, to try to make Iraq a decent democracy that champions the rights of its citizens, including bringing equality to its women and others that are oppressed, goes in the face of all that is Islam as defined by the Quran. This would be a blessing for all, and there are at least some postive anecdotal stories here. GW Bush did try to do the right thing for these people, nevermind they do not realize it, but was it a feasible thing?
But if it fails, as the Democrats badly hope for and tried to surrender long ago, then brace yourself for Huntington's Clash of Civilizations. But at least there is a chance, and we can hope that the evil of Islam in the past simply fades away due to this impetus from abroad. The lies about us being there for oil and occupation should not be painfully obvious as lies now, and this sustained the evil elements of Islam there. All the stonings, beheaddings, ... gone?? But kid yourself not, it was and is evil, the deeds of bin Laden and his ilk, and bringing those back from the Darkside would be a triumph of humanity.
And it is not the past body counts that are meaningful, it it the future, Iran gets nuclear weapons (has), and previous body counts become irrelevent. The Fault Line of this Clash: Israel and Iran, and sooner than you think.
#277Der Alleswisser....I hope Iraq holds, but we'll never know for sure until we leave. Who ever called for us to surrender? It's the war on Terror...not the war on Iraq. Bush said it himself...Iraq was just one battlefield. Saying it was a fight we never should have engaged has nothing to do with surrendering. As for the issue of oil...would you not agree that America's connection to oil makes anything that happens in the Middle East tied to our own interest? Wouldn't it be great to be free of that connection? Let's spend some money on new technologies and offshore drilling too for that matter...whatever it takes to break that which ties us so tightly to that part of the world.
You know it...you've agreed with it...we took our eyes off the ball in Afghanistan. Quit looking for things to gripe about and recognize that democrats and republicans are all Americans and we all want Osama Bin Ladin dead. Forget behind bars. Dead will do nicely.
As far as Iraq goes...we've done our best to make up for mistakes that were made. We've opened the door for them... but Sunnis and Shias must put aside their differences and learn to work together if they are ever to have true peace. That's the definition of victory in Iraq, so therefore ultimate victory has always been in their hands alone...never ours. Where are leaders failed, our soldiers have succeeded in providing the citizens of Iraq the opportunity to achieve that victory.
#278Let's be honest now, the Democrats badly wanted Bush to fail, not for the good of the county but so they could discredit the Republicans and win the election. Sadly, the American People just did not have the cognitive ability to realize that it was Barney Franks, Franklin Raines, and basically the Democratic Party that forced banks to make toxic loans to people who could not pay, that brought the whole house of cards down. Tragically, this is not just a loss of an election, but this vast indolence and intellectual deficiency of a national electorate portends the End of an Empire. Mistakes can be made and survived, but when an entire people actually cozy up to the Big Bad Wolf, know you well that we are a failed nation.
And let's be real, the whole world heard Harry Reid's surrender speech, and the whole world heard the Democrats call General Petreyus "Betray Us." We have met the enemy and he is us, the Democrats are apparently us. It is not pretty, it is fatal.
#279Der Alleswisser...Democrats hoping Republicans will fail is certainly no better than the reverse. My problem is that you keep lumping everyone into one group or the other. There are a lot of moderates voters out there for each party, not to mention all of the independents. There's even a few Libertarians out there. And what about Ron Paul?...his supporters seem worthy of mention as well.
So you think Obama is the Big Bad Wolf, or the Democratic Party? Certainly some Democrats are now drunk with power, and that worries me whenever it happens to either party. I've been following Obama since 2005, and personally I feel better about the direction our nation is headed in. But feel free to hold on to your fatalism as long as you like.
#280Let us hope he has more going than just being smooth and a triumph of style over substance. His spending is way out of control, and since August 2008 when it became obvious that he would win, the economy as been moribund. A huge vote of No Confidence. Was it that any black would have won just so liberals would feel good about voting for a black? If so, it is a shame that it was not Condelezza. Or maybe it had to be a Democrat, that bastion of liberalism, victimology and the symbiotic relationship they have with lawyers, who are overwhelmingly Democrat, and Political Correctness.
#281Der Alleswisser.... Liberals will always vote democratic and conservatives will vote Republican It's the moderates and independents that decide who wins, so if you're looking at someone to blame then fuss at them....not the liberals.
To say Obama has been responsible for the condition of the economy since August 2008 is absurd. Absolutely and utterly not worth as much response as I've already given.
#282The Democrats are responsible, they took over in 2006, they do not understand the creeping evil of Islam, and so they fight wiretapping without regard to those who will lose thier lives to terrorist attacks. Right now the Attourney General, Eric Holder, represents 19 GITMO detainees, and the Democrats have let many already go, who have returned to terrorism. Watch this, dismiss it if you will, but you should be very frightened, and know you well it is the democrats and the lawyers they promote in their party who are responsible, and who are Proxy Murderers: watch and heed http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=185279&page=1
And on the home front Americans are becoming increasingly alarmed at how inept the Obama govenment is, now the AIG thing, bonuses to Democrat voters, people who should not get a nickel of taxpayer money. Just corruption, and I could not say I am sorry for them because they voted for this, but it is all of us the Democrats are dragging down with their corruption. And they do not realize it but it is also their children's future they are destroying, oh they may inherit their ill-gotten bonuses and earmarks, but if the country is destroyed where are they going to spend it?
#283Say what you about Rush, dismiss him if you will, but I suggest you check out what he says, as I think it is correct, he would not just say this unless he could back it up, and what he says is that these AIG bonus getters are just rich Ivy league types who live in the Hamtons, know nothing of business, the money will create no jobs, not alleviate any hardship, it is just payback to Democrat supporters, just stealing.
And the rest of the world is becoming alarmed at the Obama administration and its ineptitude, in particular the Chinese who are heavily invested in US Treasury bonds. Where does this lead? Market collapse, revolution?? No where good, and so I hope your rosy opinion is correct, but am not at all optimistic. Rotten at the core, we all implode. It all boils down to basic values and ours are rotten. At least the values of those in power.
#284Your efforts to convince me that the Koran calls for the killing and/or subjugation of non-believers suggested that Islam is evil at it's root. 1)this validates to people like Joseph and Azbastard that Muslim scholars who embrace a violent interpretation of Jihad are the true standard bearers of Islam. 2) It is a stab in the back of Muslim allies like Taha.
"Evil at its root" is not a phrase I have used and, since it is a metaphor ("root" is a metaphor in this sentence), is not a phrase I would use in this discussion on this subject. Taha would certainly disagree with that phrase, and I support Taha's views. So you are arguing against a statement I have not made.
As you say, Mahmud Muhammad Taha may not represent the majority of Muslim scholars. What I'd like to know is how are we backing up Muslims like Taha?
By calling attention to Taha's work and stating that it would be very good for Muslims to follow it.
I've asked Der Alleswisser to give me a total list of the dead left in the wake of Christian verses Islamic nations.
You should do your own research. To be relevant to this discussion, you would have to seek the number of people killed by Christians claiming to be following commands of the Bible to kill all non-Christians, and the number of people killed by Muslims claiming to be following commands of the Koran to kill all non-Muslims.
Since there are no passages in the Bible calling on Jews and/or Christians to kill or subjugate all those who are not Jews and/or Christians, while there are many many passages in the Koran calling on Muslims to kill or subjugate all those who are non-Muslims, the number you would get would be 0 on the side of Christianity, and millions on the side of Islam, as you know perfectly well after reading this thread.
#285Vik Rubenfeld....Of the 13 featured posts I currently see at the top of this page, 11 are commentaries on the dark side of Islam. NONE of them are about Mahmud Muhammad Taha or anyone like him.
No...you never used the word "evil at it's root"...but that's clearly the implication in your writings. Anyway, how can you believe the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-believers and NOT believe the religion is "evil at it's root"(my term, not yours). If I could not accept the interpretation that this violence is only permitted as a defense against oppression, my conclusion would have to be that the religion is evil. So your logic seems contradictory to me...perhaps you can clarify?
#286The bad deeds of Muslims are put forth here as evidence against Islam as a religion of peace. Yet the well documented dark side of Christianity is written off as an aberration of people who weren't "true followers". Christians have used their religion as a justification to kill others (even other Christians) and Muslims have done the same. You're interpretation of the Koran may convict the Muslims and absolve Christianity in your eyes, but killing is killing in mine and whether they're holding a Bible or Koran in their hand doesn't make any difference. Those that see the struggle between these religions as a battle of good verses evil miss the point...the battle is waged in the heart of the individual.
Jesus didn't call for his followers to kill anybody. He didn't sit around dwelling on the evils of the Roman Empire either. The energies of this website seem far more devoted to fault finding than bridge building. You may have a lot of cheerleaders here, Vik Rubenfeld. But out in the real world, the majority of people in this country have grown weary of being bombarded by negativity. They embraced someone who brought them a message of hope...one you may see as a false hope. Time and history will be the judge of that, but my point is to offer you a different strategy for approaching this website. You seem to think people aren't aware of the problems...but I assure you most of us are. People are hungy for hearing about what we can do, not what we can't. Certainly Republicans better start worrying more about that and less about Obama, or the party may suffer losses from which it might never recover (and believe it or not, I think that would be a bad thing...I, for one, think we need at least two strong parties to balance and challenge each other). Sorry for the digression...but I hope my words add value to the discussion.
#287Der Alleswisser..."Say what you about Rush, dismiss him if you will, but I suggest you check out what he says, as I think it is correct, he would not just say this unless he could back it up".
I spent some time years ago fact checking Rush Limbaugh. Nothing he said then held up any better than the countless forwarded e-mails that I've fact checked using Snopes and Factcheck.Org. So know, I haven't listened to him lately. But why should I believe he's telling the truth now when he wasn't then? How often have you reviewed his comments with a critical eye? Have you read ever read one of Obama's books (the whole way thru, that is...not just random quotes)? If you have, then tell you what...let me know and I'll tune into Rush for a while and see what he's saying these days. I occasionally listen to another Obama hater...some show called "Savage Nation". His commentary one night was that white men who voted for Obama (like myself) suffer from low self esteem and abuse drugs. I feel pretty confident in myself, and I know damn well I've never abused drugs. Life is too short to listen to too much crap like that.
#288...how can you believe the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-believers and NOT believe the religion is "evil at it's root"(my term, not yours).
I'm not quite sure what you intend to refer to by the use of the word "root." Can you specify what you mean without the use of a metaphor?
People are hungy for hearing about what we can do, not what we can't.
A very good point. I have cited these suggestions made by Robert Spencer:
- Monitor the mosques.
- Control immigration.
- Call on American Muslims to back up their claims that they are against killings committed in the name of Islam.
- Tie foreign aid to a policy that nations who receive it must halt the teaching, in their schools, of hate and violence.
Also, please see this post: To Eradicate The Islamist Killers, We Must Destroy The Mechanism That Produces Them. The mechanism I refer to in that post is identical to the one discussed by a Saudi columnist just last month:
“If we want to protect our young children from one day becoming fanatics or terrorists, we need to provide them with a completely new culture that is radically different than the religious, intellectual, and social culture that has dominated us for many decades, and still does. Instead of teaching your children hostility, or letting someone else teach them hostility, towards those of other religions, teach [them] religious tolerance, which will [ensure that while] they differ from others in religion, they will share with them their common humanity…
“If he listens to the imam at the mosque praying at the top of his voice for [Allah] to destroy [others], ask him to forget what he heard, and to remember to love all and harbor hatred towards none, and [tell him] that the values that [should] motivate him are those of coexistence and cooperation.
“The families whose children have gotten involved in terrorism responded entirely favorably to this kind of hostile culture, and set extremist individuals as models of what was good and proper for their children.
“If you want to keep your son from being a terrorist, you must teach him to read religious texts not in a fanatical, narrow, and literalist manner, but in a rational manner that is open to changes in reality. The families that lost their children to terrorism abandoned them to those who inculcate in them extremist thoughts based on their extremist and ideological view of the Koran and the sunna. [For them,] one hadith or one Koranic verse read and interpreted in an extremist manner becomes an expression of the essence of the religion, whereas the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.”
So that's how it works. Imams preach hatred in mosques and as a result, random members of the mosques decide to commit violence. It appears that this may be a link in the chain that we can go after. After all, we don't permit people in this country to preach hatred of any racial groups; why should imams be exempt from this requirement, just because they can quote from the Koran to support their arguments? it may be useful to seek an approach that can respect our traditions of free speech, and at the same time, prevent imams from preaching hatred and inciting violence.
#289Vik Rubenfeld....it is late and I am tired, but there are certainly points of agreement here.
Monitor the Mosques. Obviously you can't have government censors sitting in the back reviewing every word the Imam says. But just like our government when it takes on religous cults that threaten violence to themselves or others, the rights of free speech should not protect such people even within the sanctuary of a church or mosque.
Control immigration. Yep...responsible immigration policies are very important.
Call on American Muslims to back up their claims...? What does this mean? If they say they're against killings commited in the name of Islam, what else exactly do you want them to do?
As for foreign aid, who do hurt when we cut it off? The government, or the people we're trying to reach out to? The point is well taken, but I think the issue warrants more critical thinking than I'm capable of at this late hour. Let me just add this...how about we not cozy up to dictators just because they play nice with us. You never hear about Qadafi in Libya anymore because he started cooperating with us...but he's still the same old brutal dictator.
The Saudi columnist wrote..."one hadith or one Koranic verse read and interpreted in an extremist manner becomes an expression of the essence of the religion, whereas the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.” These are his words....how often have you expressed that sentiment in your own words? I will confess...I haven't read everything here. Perhaps you have written that many times and I have simply missed it. I certainly wasn't getting that message when you kept repeating that the Koran calls for Muslims to kill and/or subjugate non-believers.
You need me to explain the metaphor I used to express my feeling that your writing implicates that the foundation of Islam is evil? You really don't "catch my drift"? Fine...whatever...I don't know how to say it any more simply, so let's just put it to bed.
Good night.
#290It is not just Rush but Hannity, Mark Levin, Fox TV, and generally I am getting a lot of email from friends who are very preturbed about what is happening to their nation. Many of them are veterans who have fought for their country (as I am) and these are very patriotic proud people. There is a general malaise and miasma, distrust, not at all confident and even worse distrustful of Obama.
What I fear is that this is a massive redistribution of wealth , in the fallacious assumption that the economy is just one big fixed pie and so he will slice it differently, while stiffling initiative and creativity, and most of all fairness. The AIG thing is a canary in the mine as to how incompetent these Democrats are, this is not going to help at all, this just sows more distrust. And I am afraid the wheels will come off. None of these bailouts have helped, in fact they have hurt. I wish I could conclude that Rush was just trying to win more listeners (and according to him he is doing so with huge numbers-- and this is also indicitive of the national mood).
If we had a president that formost we could trust, and I cannot say that I do, we could move forward together, we could all get behind that and the rising tide would lift all boats equally.. I suspect his agenda and it even may be a hidden racial agenda, is dishonest, He seems inept and seems to want to steal from the taxpayers for earmarks to Democrats for political reasons. He claims there are none but this is just lies.
#291Now this stuff about not giving combat veterans health care for combat wounds, dishonest and un - American.
As far as Islam is concerned, the history is troubling, the thing with Israel seems doomed and not because of Israel, they have given up land and been very patient as we have tried vainly to buy the peace. If Islam is evil at the core, and it is hard to see otherwise, nothing but silence, no outreach to anyone, then we are going to go into new territory more dangerous that last or any century's. The juxtaposition of the Believer and the Unbeliver, lots for Europe to worry about within ten years, and then if that goes as some say, a horrific conflict to follow, or maybe, the West dies with not a bang but a whimper. That appears to be where Europe is headed, just all fought out and tired, pampered by the US they have lost the primal instinct for survival.
In America Alone, Mark Steyn does not say 12 offspring per Islamic mother in Europe, he says it is 3.85, as compared to 1.4 averaged over all of Europe, from 1.1 for "We are so outraged about you bombing our trains and killing over 200 of us, we surrender and we elect the candidate for president you Muslims want," Spain, and also Russia, to a bit higher for the Netherlands. But it takes 2.1 children per mother to just stay even, and so Europe will simply become Islamic as time goes on. Will this be a bunch of beheaddings and Allah Akbar?
Something for you to ponder as you look at your children and grandchildren. You need to hope all this good stuff you say about Islam is not just hope and there is some basis for it. The only thing I see is some at least seemingly nice Islamics here in the states, but what happens if they become the majority as they are becoming in Europe? And keep in mind that most of those Islamics there are very young and Europeans are becoming older, and if this ever gets to a street fighting thing, age may bring wisdom but it does not bring good street fighters. That wisdom had better be sufficient to prevent this becoming a street fighting thing, because if it ever does, today's Europeans are in for the horrors of Constanople, India, Smyrna, and all the other lands where Islamics have murdered and raped and Pillaged for fourteen centuries. Do not ignore this. And then the ones that live become Dhimmis. This unless somehow miraclously Islam sheds fourteen centuries of inertial evil and becomes civilized. If not, back to the Dark Ages.
#292Der Alleswisser....Let me sum up your ramblings for everyone in the form of mathematical equations.
Democrats + Muslims = End of Western Civilization.
Obama x 4 years = the Union of Socialists States of America.
Rush Limbaugh + Hannity Jones + Vik Rubenfeld = The Holy Trinity
As for me...
Der Alleswisser + 10,000 words = Me not really caring.
Sorry...I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
#293jamie you got your head so far up your ass, you won't know whats happening till the cock crows
#294I try to be objective about Democrats and Islamics. Always thought the latter were folks just like anyone else until 9/11. And heard about the Muslims being victims of the Crusades just one too many times, and then a background process was running telling me that isomething did not add up. This in view of all the terrorist attacks that had being going on since Black September in 1972 at Munich, all the hijackings after that, the murdered cripple on the ocean liner, all these horrible things being done in the name of Allah, all of this conflicted with the widely-held assumption that Islamics are victims in Palestine, Crusades, .... then I started reading. And with each new book came a growing realization of what creeping evil Islam is. There is hope, but not much, but I hope I am wrong, that all these books ( and there are many), but the average American does not read, only listens to the national media which is hugely - biased and scrubbed for PC-ness, the stuff about it being disadvantaged "Youths" burning cars in Europe, somehow thinking that if no one mentions that these are Muslims it will all be ok.
You may have noticed and heard about all the newspaper layoffs, this why, and declining viewership at CBS, ABC, all the feel - good liberal PC media. This is why, they become irrelevant, they fade away. And our public schools teach meaningless history, no mention of any thing but drivel and revisionist history about Islam. You would not know about Smyrna, as a matter of fact you would not even know about all the vanquished and murdered people in Persia, Egypt, all of the Middle East, even into Spain, you would not know that the Jewish people were the original people of Jerusalem and what is now Israel, you would have no idea of the millions murdered in the name of Allah.
The Democrats, I could support them if they just stood for the right thing, were honest. The tendency for a democratic society is more government and more liberalism. Jefferson said so. Liberals are emotional types who look as everyone as victims and ergo all the lawyers. Conservatives look for solutions. It is easy to be a liberal, just lament about how pitiful everything is, then tax and throw taxpayers' money at it, buy those votes, dumb us all down.
#295Being conservative is not so easy, the quickest word to failure is "yes," (Mike Smith, pilot of the Challenger when it blew up, and yes, I knew him). Sometimes you have to say "No" to serve the common good, hard decisions must be made and solutions sought.
This includes the economy, and it includes an unbiased analysis of Islam, with the above mentioned measures of controlling immigration, monitoring mosques, .... as quoted from Robert Spencer. Meet him in 'Islam: What the West Needs to Know About Radical Islam." Yes, some may cry about profiling, but we must be strong enought to present the facts as to why this is necessary. Failure to do so is weak, emblematic of a society that more government has softened to the degree that it no longer has the primal instinct for survival.
The Liberal Democrat viewpoint that we need to not acknowledge these things but instead handle the Islamic problem as a legal problem. The liberal sluffs off any responsibility to protect decent innocent Americans in favor of protecting the rights of a people at least a significant percentage of whom are pure evil. They know they cannot be held accountable, as they are lawyers, and make it that way. This is what most lawyers do and it is immoral, and within the Democrat Party is where these lawyers are and it is this party that implements policy (smoking, GITMO, spilled coffee, suits against Wal Mart,.....) that are in the financial interests of of lawyers and Democrats.
Lawyers = Democrats = Protection of the Guilty = Cover for Islamic Fifth Column in America
Multiculturalism + Denial of the Facts About Islam = Innocents Die From Terrorist Attacks
Liberal Democrats = Socialism = Stealing from Taxpayers
#296Der Alleswisser...you never answered my question as to whether or not you have ever read any books by Obama?
Sure...there are plenty of books to support what you say. There are also plenty of books that don't support what you say. Out of 6 billion people on this planet, you won't find any two completely alike. So as much as we all like to categorize others, when you really get to know those people on an individual level things get a lot more slippery. For example, someone named Sherry just blasted Nancy Pelosi for her comments about immigration. Like most Republicans, I think Mexicans are at the top of Sherry's list when the topic of immigration comes up. But Vik Rubenfeld and yourself have said unassimilated Muslims are the danger to this nation losing it's identity...not unassimilated Mexicans. I like Mexicans just fine, but I don't like it when they come here and make no attempt to respect our laws or learn our language, and their numbers are far greater than Muslim immigrants. Muslim immigrants from Iraq who took our side when we invaded and ended up having to escape their own country should have been welcomed here with open arms....but instead most of them got you, Vik, George Bush, and the door slammed in their face. But I digress...the main point is that you sound out of step with a lot of people who call themselves Republicans and consider Mexican immigrants a threat to our way of life. So therefore, you and all Republicans are not alike. Democrats are not all alike either.
There are smart people representing each party...and there are plenty of fools to go around as well. I respect the Republican position that government can't fix all our problems. But I think our nation needs someone to blow the whistle now and then and not let the game get out of control...that's what being a democrat should be about. It's not about socialism. If I believed in socialism then I'd just call myself a socialist. The fact that you can't find anything positive to say about Democrats tells me you are incapable of empathy and that the only opinion you're interested in is your own.
I liked Reagan. I didn't agree with everything he did, but the man was a leader. George Bush the first was ok...but I'm afraid his son was never of that ilk. For all of his decisiveness going into Afghanistan, his obsession with Iraq got him off path and he never found his way back. He abandoned fiscal responsibility and fooled our country into riding along with him on his year quixotic journey to nowhere. Nice guy...but I'm sorry, he had no clue what he was doing. How you can seriously blame all of the problems we face now on the Democrats who have semi-controlled Congress for 2 years and Obama who has been President for 2 months is ludicrous. You will have to wait a bit longer than that to know what the true result will be of the direction we as a nation have now decided to take.
Azbastard....very constructive criticism. Always nice to hear from my Christian friends.
#297Der Alleswisser....You wrote, "I try to be objective about Democrats and Islamics. Always thought the latter were folks just like anyone else until 9/11."
First of all...ignorance is no excuse. As a whole, our nation (Republicans and Democrats alike) kept our heads in the sand while Osama Bin Ladin built up Al Qaeda. It's not like the guy was keeping his intentions secret (WTC 1993, Africa Embassy bombings, the USS Cole). Then 9/11...19 guys kill 3,000 innocent people. The world was outraged and on our side. We go into Afghanistan and I'm thinking Al Qaeda picked the wrong country to pick a fight with. But then Iraq. What the hell?
So meanwhile, after 9/11 you're spending all kinds of time believing every negative thing you can find to read about Islam. Bush says Iraq is the enemy, and you bite. All Muslims are the enemy...and you're gung ho to take the fight to them. So we crush Saddam and eliminate the entire power structure in a nation with three distinct ethnic/religous groups that have hated each other for centuries. 100,000 Iraqis are killed in the resulting violence. Some by their own hands...some by errant American bombs...but the fact that so many American's are unable to empathize with the anger people felt towards the force that opened Pandora's Box...it boggles my mind. Yes...I can sit here in the comfort of my den and rationalize and justify our actions. But if I forget to remember the impact those actions have on the lives of other, then I lose the better part of my own humanity. That is the road you choose when you allow an entire religion to be defined by the evil of a radical minority. When you consider the Holocaust in Christian Europe an aberration and the destruction of Smyrna damning evidence against all of Islam, you have lost perspective. Before you know it, victory at any cost become acceptable...even at the loss of your own soul. You do not destroy evil by becoming it.
What about my words seems weak? Does my desire to see Obama's skull in a museum sound weak? Does the fact that I'm pissed off that we followed Bush's quixotic journey into Iraq make me weak? Should I fell guilty for believing CEO's and executives who continually hoard a larger percentage of their company's profits should pay an equally larger percentage of the taxes needed to keep our nation up and running? I don't believe in prayer in school because I don't want other people instructing my kids how to pray...does that make me Godless? I don't believe in torture...does that make me un-American? If lawyers hadn't taken on the lawyers who represented Big Tobacco, do you think they would have stopped lying to the American public about their product on their own? If Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond had had their way, where would civil rights be now? And if I want our government to help us find a way to make sure everyone gets a right to medical care in spite of pre-existing conditions, does that make me a socialist? I don't want anyone telling me I have to join a union anymore than I want someone telling me I can't...what's weak about that? I believe in our ability to discover new technologies that will free us from the ties that bind us to Arab oil...what's wrong with that?
Geez Der Alleswisser...you've got me rambling worse than you do. Whenever someone takes a position that seems counterintuitive to common sense, ask why they feel that way. Maybe they have a good reason. Or just lump everyone into large groups and label them as Democrat, or Muslim, and write everything they say off without any consideration.
#298Jamie, in response to your question:
Call on American Muslims to back up their claims...? What does this mean? If they say they're against killings commited in the name of Islam, what else exactly do you want them to do?
Just saying they are against killings in the name of Islam, is insufficient, when so many of their co-religionists are burning cars, burning buildings, and committing murders in the name of Islam.
If they really mean what they say, they must march in the streets and say to all the world that Muslims who burn cars, burn buildings, and kill people in public places such as planes, trains, restaurants, etc., do not go to paradise. They must demand that Imams who call for Muslims to kill in the name of Islam, be driven out of the mosques.
But we never see any such marches. Why? Because many have read the Koran, and are aware that many verses in the Koran do indeed call for such killing. In short, many are not in fact against killings in the name of Islam, and when they say they are, they are doing dawa. From about.com:
In Islam, da'wa means a "call" or "invitation," and has been used to refer to a person being "called" to follow Islam. However, it has developed into the idea of a "mission" or "propaganda," either in a political or religious sense.
In other words, many are saying that Islam is peaceful, even though they know it is not; they are fooling you.
#299http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/perspective-on-mazen-asbahi.html
Read it. Say what you want. In my opinion, the kind of rhetoric that one finds here is what leads to the witch hunts like the one perpetrated against Mazen Asbahi. Here is another article on the same story.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/06/politics/main4326211.shtml
Here is how another website with views closer to this one presents Mazen Ashabi. I suppose many here will say this is the more accurate story.
http://www.barackbook.com/Profiles/MazenAsbahi.htm
I suppose you can make a case either way that people believe what they want to believe. As to what Vik Rubenfeld believes, it's difficult to tell. In post #288 he offers us a quote from a Saudi columnist that includes this quote..."For them,] one hadith or one Koranic verse read and interpreted in an extremist manner becomes an expression of the essence of the religion, whereas the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.” In post #274 we have "Your wish to construct a view of the Koran under which violent jihad can be rejected, is excellent. There are people today who are seeking to achieve this. Daniel Pipes has identified a line of thought, originated by a Muslim, which enables Muslims to do just that." But in countless other post we get "the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims", and now "many are saying that Islam is peaceful, even though they know it is not; they are fooling you."
Are there violent Muslims? Yes....
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp
But make sure you read what Ashgar Bukhari, the Chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee has to say about it. He is on record as saying those Muslims should have been stopped by police. I also support David Winnick's suggestion that these protesters be prosecuted and deported. Please note that the Walsall North MP added, that the overwhelming majority of Muslims have the same distate as the rest of us about these thugs.
Vik Rubenfeld. You want the Muslims to protest violence committed by others of their own religion? Maybe one day they will apologise for their silence. It only took the Catholic Church a little over 50 years to get around to it. So tell me Vik, when you here of hate crimes against innocent Muslims here in American, how do you go about showing your abhorrence of such violence? I think you could learn a few lessons from a website that knows what the term "religous tolerance" really means...like what I found here....
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter1.htm
Why don't you write Muslims in your own local community and ask them to have a protest march against violence and religous intolerance with you? Have you already done that? Did they say no?
#300When God has kindled the fire, how can man put the fire out? In the book of Daniel, Michael fought with the prince of Media and Persia. The King of the north against the King of the south. The King of the north being Judea and the King of the south being Jerusleum. The King of the North will plant his tabernacles between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. But, God in all his wisdom, and out of the seed of the first born of Christ, will build the walls of Jerusleaum that cannot be breached. All things are done for Gods will. The only way to Him is through Jesus and His Spirit, which speaks louder that any words. Will Christians be persecuted for this belief? Will they be persecuted for their morals? Will they be persecuted for their saltiness? America is the last stronghold. America was made great because we helped the oppresed and our government was on the shoulders of Jesus. But, now many want to take God out of the equation and blasphemy his name becaue we feel that we are above God, and do not fear God. America is in trouble big time. The attack of Sept.11 was an eyeopener, but over time we grow weary and we put our guard down and draw back the watchman. For the record, Obama is an idiot, a court jester. But, God put him where he is at, for His purpose. Thats a real eyeopener also
#301Big problem with these Islamic groups here in the US, and this guy Asbahi who supposedly is a great innocent guy, where are he and his so-called followers when horrific evil is committed in the name of Allah? He and his silence....
Let us not be so easily fooled, as the Democrats have consistantly been (Carter, Clinton, Hillary, and now Obama, waiting to be played the fool by Iran). On page 154 of Defeating Jihad by Serge Trifkovic, you have "In September 2004, the Chicago Tribune revealed the existance, methods, and ultimate goals of the offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, the 'world's most influencial Islamic fundamentalist group.' .....The Brotherhood's slogan, ever since it was founded in Egypt in 1928, has been clear: 'Allah is our goal; the Messenger is our model; the Kuran is our constitution; jihad is our means; and martyrdom iin the way of Allah is our aspiration.'.... The Brotherhood's leaders call for the destruction of Israel, and assert that THE US HAS NO PROOF THAT AL QAEDA WAS TO BLAME FOR 9/11.. Its proselytizing in the US is backed by the Saudi Arabian government, which shares the Brotherhood's fundamentalist goals..... The Tribune article claims that 'because of its hard - line beliefs, the US Brotherhood has been an increasingly divisive force within America, fueling the often bitter struggle between moderate and conservative Muslims.' (Yes there are some good Muslims but petrodollars from Saudi Arabia proliferate the Satanic Sect of Islam: Whabillism, these are Satan's People, but don't forget what the Turkish Islamics did to the Armenians and Smyrna, not all evil within Islam is Whabalism, much evil in Islam, the world's most evil people throughtout the history of mankind."
Translation: This is pure evil, and if this Ashabi speaks here, it is evil he speaks of, and he knows the Democrats are stupid enough to believe his al Taqiya lying to tell them how peaceful the Brotherhood is.
On page 155: "the MAS Chicago web site states matter of factly that Western secularism and materialism are evil, adn the Muslims should 'pursue this evil force to its own lands' and 'invade its Western heartland.'
"
One thing for this evil that is CAIR and MAB and the others, you are here only because of the stupidity of the Democrats. Myself or others who think as I do ever get control, your sorry evil demonic a***s get locked up for good, and kill anyone and you pay the price. Leave if you do not like it here, go back to your evil backwards Allah countries, back to the seventh century. See if you can make a door that opens and shuts, see if you can make a wheel and then a bicycle. Demonic evil, darkness, leave.
#302Der Alleswisser...You say there are good Muslims but that the entire religion is evil...way to roll out the welcome mat for Muslims who love America. You want them all to leave so don't even bother with the token sentiments about their being "good Muslims". What incentive do you give them to march the streets in protest against the extremists when you would just as soon give them the boot out of the country as well?
We've survived the Salem witch hunts and McCarthyims, but if you or people like you ever get control, the national anthem might as well be changed to AC/DC's "Highway to Hell".
Azbastard...Will you laugh with glee in heaven as Muslim children follow their parents down into the pits of eternal damnation on Judgement Day? Will you pour your saltiness into the eyes of old Muslim men? Will you stand on the right side of Jesus as the women in their burkhas are poked and prodded into the burning flames of Satan's grasp? Azbastard...I'm blinded by your rightousness...I see the light! Muslims must never be allowed to persecute our Lord's humble Christian soldiers again. We must ban them from our government, our schools, our malls, our entire nation. Drag them out of their homes and into the street for all to see them for the evil pagans they truly are. Let them dry up and blow away in the desert sands from which their sorry souls originated. As God as my witness, I will never see them as humans like the rest of God's children...they are demon seed, fit for fertilizing the bottomless hole of Hell that their empty hearts will one day inhabit for eternity.
God bless you all!
#303BTW Der Alleswisser...moderate Muslims aren't standing in silence. They speak but you don't hear. They give but you don't receive. How vocal were you against the hate crimes committed against innocent Muslims in the wake of terrorist attacks? They hid in their homes because they know as well as anyone that it's human nature to want someone to blame. The fact is...they're Americans and don't owe you an explanation for something they didn't do.
#304Here is a story offered by that bastion of liberal elitism...FOX NEWS.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131580,00.html
They may be a minority in the world, but moderate Muslims deserve our support. Support does not include denying them the peaceful interpretation of their own holy text and writing the entire religion off as misguided evil. If it all came down to who's view of God I didn't agree with, then I'd want to kick the Muslims and over half the Christians out of the country. But that's not what America is about. America is about religous tolerance. That doesn't mean just the Baptist and the Presbyterians. It means peaceful followers of ALL faiths (and atheist too).
#305
#306Hillary and BJ (Bill Jefferson) Clinton have had millions thrown at them by the Islamics, who realize their venality and stupidity.
If you want an absolute proof of the evil of CAIR, read "Willful Blindness, a Memoir of the Jihad," by Andrew McCarthy, lead prosecutor of the Blind Sheik, and the other terrorists who did the first WTC attack. You will finally realize the truth when you read of how they spoke out for this demonic man, Satan on Earth. CAIR knows that most Americans do not read, and will believe anything they read in the newspapers or see on the CBS Evening News. All that is drivel, all that the Democrats say is lies, propogating their corrupt agenda. Read the book and then you will see thru all this, but realize that the man in the street, those who went to vote last November, they have no inkling of the depth of this evil, they think Islamics are like everyone else. Without all the petrodollars funding this evil religion and its spreading, without the stupid Democrats, the Moral Majority of Islam may find itself, but it does not look good. All 19 of the 9/11 terrorists were Whabbalists. And they have built many mosques here, as they know that the indolent American will look at that just like a Baptist or Methodist church, clueless.
On page 270 of "The Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic you have: "Prior to September 11, the Islamic vanguard in the US had grown confident - even cocky. CAIR (Council of American-Islamic Relations) and the the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) all protested the US designation of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations (Ever heard a bigger lie than this? This is totally stupid, and only a stupid person would believe it, and so we must have many).
#307According to the Muslim World Monitor, the groups said that characterization was wrong, because 'Palestinian resistance orgainzations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad have never committed any act outside of occupied Palestine and have only fought forces of the Israeli occupation (How about those lies, and the Democrats buy this stuff, realize that Obama is begging the Iranians to lie to him, re - read that last sentance, and get the word "Occupied.") This was at the time when a spokesman for Hamas openly declared that 'there are no such terms as compromise and surrender in the Islamic cultural lexicon: if the only alternative is destruction and death for the enemies of true Islam, so be it. (Do you really want this evil here? Do you want to worry about family members who went to the mall that this evil attacks in the future, do you not see that these are the words of Satan, and that this evil is simply not compatabile with a western democracy. How can we as a people allow such evil in our mist, how do you put this stuff up about how innocent and peaceful CAIR is?? How so gullible?? Do you not read????) Hezbollah's spiritual leader, Muhammad Husayn Fadlallah, concurred.......
(NOW GET THIS:) "CAIR has called the verdict in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing 'a travesty of justice because it 'represents the degree to which an anti-Muslim venom has penetrated into society.' (Not enough for me, read the aforementioned book and you will know the truth about this evil, these people are the ones who should be burned at the stake, far more evil than anything at Salem.)....CAIR, AMC, and MPAC joined forces at a rally in Lafayette Park, in front of the White House, at which Abdurahman Alamoudi, former executive director and current member of the board of directors of the AMC, said, 'we are all supporters of Hamas, Allahu Akbar! I am also a supporter of Hezbollah.' All three groups also condemned the August 1998 retaliation against Osama bin Laden in the aftermath of the bombings of two US embassies in Africa.
#308(I would have sent the Marines into that rally, and none of the evil would have lived, this is Satan, and it is our nation's stupid people who allow this evil in our mist, our Democrats, our lawyers, the only thing the Islamic terrorists of the first WTC Attack said they liked about America is its lawyers, I am not making that up. Read the book.) In its statement about the August 8, 2001 bombing of a Sbarro pizzeria in Tel Aviv that killed 15 young Israelis, MPAC described it as 'the expected bitter result of the reckless policy of Israeli assassinations...."
And on it goes, but you get the idea (hopefully).
Deporting these people would actually be inadequate, they need to be destroyed. Will this happen? No, not with the Democrats and the lawyers, who are one and the same. Most will read the lies in the posts about CAIR and MAB and how sweet they are and not realize that this is the breath of the beast. They know better than do a Pearl Harbor, even the 9/11 stuff is not what the astute ones want, they know it is our stupid Democrats and the lawyers that is the soft underbelly of America, just keep telling them lies about how peaceful and tolerant Islam is. This is what they WANT to hear, so they will believe it.
#309Jamie, why do you keep barking up the wrong tree? You're quick to paint Chritians as the evil ones. You think we just set and wait to slay muslims? You think we have anything to say on judgement day? I'm peacefull with my belief. It's big government that we have to watch out for. Many wonderfull things will be happening to cause most to believe that government, is the answer to their many problems. I bleive that you have fallen into that snare. You don't fear God, because you set on the throne. You blashemy God and you think its a joke, because you, in all your knowledge, have the answers. The simple truth escapes you and the cross is foolishness. God has made Islam great for his promise to Ismael, the bastard son. So who am I to say anything against that. For all things are for his purpose, not mine. Very troubling times are ahead, there will be no peace.
#310Der Alleswisser....You confuse intelligence with judgement. To assume people are stupid just because they don't reach the same conclusions as you is the epitome of arrogance. George Bush, in spite of his lack of eloquence, is intelligent (dumbasses don't graduate from Yale). I've questioned his judgement, never his integrity. Your comments regarding Obama's intelligence simply make you sound like an ass.
Have you ever seen the movie "Patton" with George C. Scott? In it, Patton says, "Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!" You need to read Obama's "Audacity of Hope". You don't have to like it. I just don't see how you can speak with such authority about Obama when you haven't even read his book. I read books and listen to shows that cross the entire political spectrum...how else can one expect to stay informed? I forgot...you're a ditto head...you like your info spoon fed to you.
Universal health care does not have to mean socialized medicine....it simply means that everyone is covered. The job can be done utilizing private insurance companies. If you look at nations like Japan and the Netherlands, you will not find the same system that Canada and the UK adopted. What good does having the best health care in the world do us if fewer and fewer people can afford it? And insurance companies denying coverage for pre-existing conditions is a big concern to me. If the Republicans have an idea regarding that issue, I'm all ears.
Azbastard...your reading comprehension sucks. I haven't painted Christians as the "evil ones". I'm suggesting that people like you who claim to be Christian or Muslim but manipulate scriptures to satisfy their own need to spread hate are the "evil ones". What you call a joke I call serious questions asked in a blunt and provacative way. Why should I believe good people burn in hell just because they're not Christian? We don't even have to talk about Muslims...tell me how you justify believing God is perfect, but created us with obvious limitations, and then we're condemned regardless of our actions in this world if we don't accept Jesus? I grew up in a Christian home, and to this day I find the teachings of Jesus inspirational. But at no time has the notion the "only thru Jesus" rule made any sense to me. God...save me from your followers!
You're right...I don't fear God. I see no merit in a heart that acts based purely on a system of rewards and punsihments (heaven and hell). I see God's love in those who follow the Golden Rule without preset conditions. That may mean I'm not a Christian in your book. I don't care. There may be troubling times ahead...but the greatest danger to Christianity comes from the inside, and not from outside influences like Islam.
#311Yes, I saw Patton, and yes, I remember the line about Rommel. The movie is most famous for its opening speech by Patton, which the re-release indicates were actually his words, just not all in one speech.
Is Obama ok? Are the ones like Rush who say they want him to fail correct? This is said because of the fear of big government and the rush to socialism. Big government does nothing well, because it is hampered by all the regulation and minority set asides that are not coexistant with efficiency.
Look at it this way. If I reach into my pockets and take out to give to someone in need, this is charity and it is commendable. But if I reach into your pockets and take out to give to someone in need, this is stealing, and I could be locked up for it. This is exactly what government does, this is socialism. (Read Walter E. Williams in Liberty Versus the Tyranncy of Socialism). Most troubling is the Democrat's history of giving from the American taxpayer to give to illegals, starting with Carter. This to me is just buying votes at the expense of all of us. This SCHIP Health thing of Obama's will give health care to illegals, and it will give health care to 28 year olds who live at home in four family homes with incomes of $80000. What? And the out of control spending, the generational theft. And the GITMO thing I find appalling, proxy murder.
#312I am so turned off by this man and the Democrat party in general, and most of all the American people who voted for this. I will keep an open mind, and if I ever see anything I admire about this man and his party, I will explore, but right now I am troubled about our future, and in particular, our collective morality in view of the desire for handouts and the unwillingness to do the hard work to succeed. I understand most Obama supporters are young. What, they do not want to build careers? They want an entitled easy road? Handouts?? Tax the horribly rich, ok, but tax all of us to give to those who overspent and were not responsible? Punish those who make their mortgage payments in favor of those who were irresponsible?
The fatal flaw of the Democrat Party, in my view, is the hypocrisy of blaming everything on Bush and ignoring what Barney Franks, Franklin Raines, Jimmy Carter, Maxine Waters, Obama/Acorn, all this cancer, forcing banks to make loans they should not have made, this is rot, this is wrong, and to ignore it and blame it on Bush, this is a metastised cancer. You either put the spotlight on the rot, admit it, take corrective measures, and everyone can understand that, but ignore it and this is doom, it is the cancer of a nation, and it is the Democratic Party that is doing this. Nothing to admire here, nothing to read about if this is what these people are. And make no mistake, Obama is heavily involved in Acorn, the arm-twisting to make banks make these toxic loans, PUNISH BARNEY FRANKS AND THE OTHERS WHO DID THIS, ADMIT IT AND MOVE FORWARDS.
The AIG bonuses, trying to pretend they did not do it, trying to blame the ones getting it, trying to pretend that it was not Geitner, Dodd .... that put it in, not admitting it, stealing from the taxpayer, I would fill the jails with these Democrats, a la the French Revolution, heads should roll (maybe not litterally in 2009 as this is not 1789....) but make no mistake these hypocrits should pay.
#313And Islam, it just cannot be argued that Islam and say Catholics is the same as Methodist and Catholics, this is a non-compatible religion, it is dangerous, it should not be allowed here, it should be banned. From page 86 of America Alone by Mark Steyn: "One can't help but noticing that the most prominent 'Moderate Muslims' would seem to be more accurately designated as apostate or ex-Muslims......The pseudonymous apostate Ibn Warraq (too dangerous to publish under his real name, what does that tell you about Islam? What about Salmon Rushdie, what does this tell you about Islam??? You can publish anything you want to in the US and be perfectly safe, this should tell you all you need to know about Islam.) makes an important distinction: there are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam. Millions of Muslims just want to get on with their lives, and there are - or were - remote corners of the world where, far from Mecca, Muslim practices reached accommodation with local customs. But all of the official schools of Islamic jurispridence commend sharia and violent jihad. so a 'Moderate Muslim' publicly means standing up to the leaders of your community, to men like Shaker Elsayed, leader of the Dar al Hijrah, one of America's largest mosques, who has told his coreligionists in blunt terms: 'THE CALL TO REFORM ISLAM IS AN ALIEN CALL.'
"And if you are a truely moderate Muslim, why should you be expected to take on the most powerful men in Islam, when the West's media and political class pander to them?"
#314Yes indeed, all you PC media types, and our Carters, Clintons, and now Obama, your weakness emboldens the evil elements of Islam, you just do not have courage and tenacity, you pander to evil and this nurtures evil.
Obama, just what is there to talk about with Iran? Do you not know what Hezbollah is and who funds them? Do you really think talk will do anything? You will just get lied to, this is Satan, it must be stood up to, there is no common ground, there is a fight to the death with Israel. What, you want to abandon Israel? Is that it, you do not understand the bloody fourteen centuries of Islamic Agression? Have you done the Required Reading President Obama, or do you think airy platitiudes and lofty rherotic will smooth over this Islamic thing? Is it you that needs to read some books, maybe instead of writing that book of yours you should have been reading about Islam????
Stand up to this evil, smash Iran, Peshwar, Wurizstan, jerk some butts in Saudia Arabia, tell them what they will do or else regarding Whabbism, don't beg for oil price reduction like Bush did, tell them what to do or else, and watch this evil retreat, If it does not, smash it, knock the snot out of this evil. It does no good to have a hammer and not use it. Teddy Roodevelt: "Talk softly but carry a big stick." Evil understands the big stick, if they do not at first, then knock the snot out of them until they do.
They march across from the White House, just get a load of what I would do to them, It would not happen a second time. This is the way that evil has to be dealt with, not prissy liberalism.
"Islamics understand that their most powerful secret weapon is the Liberal Mindset, while at the same time despising it." ~~~~The Sword of the Prophet, Serge Trifkovic
#315Der Alleswisser...I can't think of any president who didn't have his detractors. Lincoln, with so many monuments built to his memory, is still despised by many (especially where I live). Your comments about Obama reveal how truly little you understand the man, and considering the one sided sources of information that you cite, it is no wonder your opinions are so skewed.
Here's a quote from "the Audacity of Hope".."the conservative revolution that Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight - that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing the pie - contained a good deal of truth". After that he writes "while welfare certainly provided relief for many impovershed Americans, it did create some perverse incentives when it came to the work ethic and family stability". Does this sound like the words of someone who believes in free handouts? Yes..he's a democrat...and he believes having a safety net for people in trouble is an important part of a healthy society. It doesn't mean he wants lines of people waiting on government money.
It bewilders me that when a black leader finally steps up and calls for communities to take responsibility for their own destinies, conservatives cling to the notion that his message is no different from prior leaders such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. If they are of the same ilk, why on earth would Jesse get caught saying "Barack talks down to black people...I'd like to cut his #@& off". Do you not remember that incident?
Obama's sending more troops to Afghanistan to fight Al Qaeda..you might recall that they're the group who actually attacked us in 2001. You want to kick Muslims out of this country and, it would seem from the tone of your language, declare war on Iran(or all Islamic countries?). You consider the violence in the histories of Christian peoples inadmissable evidence...an aberration. Germany exterminates 6 million jews...but all you want to talk about is Smryna in 1922. Neither Smyrna or WWII is the issue today...Al Qaeda is. We can defeat Al Qaeda. We cannot, should not, and will not exterminate Islam.
You say you've met nice Muslims...but you never address your concerns with them about their religion. That would be rude you say. Then you say here that they're religion is non-compatible, and thus I have to assume you want them out of the country. If they are truly the threat you say they are...then you are a coward for pretending to be their friend and not having the courage to say such things to their face.
#316
#317An unfortunate thing about not being able to talk with Islamics about their religion. This is something we in America have lost. One cannot talk about politics or religion, and there are those who say you cannot even tell jokes any more, because our national pastime is no longer baseball, it is being offended. Victimology. All you have to do is utter the Magic Incantation "I am offended," and out of the bottle comes the 900 pound gorilla. And what can a 900 pound gorilla do? Anything he wants to.
America's most formidable problem, one that CAIR, MAB, ...understand well, lawyers have ruined America, casting aside real values, cultivating offended people. And Muslims with petrodollars and corrupt un-American lawyers present our most dire peril. Gitmo.
#318Der Alleswisser...how is health care to illegals the legacy of Democrats? I agree that illegal immigrants have been using and abusing our system and getting free health care...but it seems to me Republicans have had ample opportunity to do something about it and they didn't . I, for one, also think it's time we reviewed our policy of giving American citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants who happen to be born on our soil.
Whatever nets were cast that captured the GITMO detainees, I think it's fair to assume some of those men are hard core, some are fighters but uncommitted to radical Islam, and some were flat out innocent. It's been long enough to figure out who is what. Put them on trial and let's start acting like we actually believe in the morals and principles we preach to others.
For every Democrat lawyer representing a "victim", there's 10 Republican lawyers getting paid big bucks by the corporations that they're defending. While there are frivolous lawsuits out there, there are also some very wealthy CEO's out there who raked in millions selling products that harmed a lot of innocent people (asbestos claims for example). You keep wanting to dump all Democrats into one bucket...but that bucket ain't holding water. There are Republican and Democratic lawyers...both good and bad on each side. Didn't you hear? Stereotyping is out of style!
For all your issues with Obama, you might want to look beyond his critics so that you can reach your own unbiased conclusion. Do you fact check this stuff, or are you just repeating what someone else said? Before the election, I was bombarded with e-mails making one accusation or another against Obama, but whenever I visited factcheck.org or snopes the lies didn't hold up. I never once received an e-mail with wild accusations against McCain. Personally, I think these e-mails hurt McCain more than Obama (I'm not the only one who knows about Snopes).
Last, but not least, I can't believe you wrote this...."Eradicate Islam, no, but yes, reform the religion, with whatever force is necessary". Vik Rubenfeld, are you reading this? Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees how hypocritical this statement is. I thought "by whatever force necessary" was the ideology of our enemy.
#319@Jamie #299:
As to what Vik Rubenfeld believes, it's difficult to tell. In post #288 he offers us a quote from a Saudi columnist that includes this quote..."For them,] one hadith or one Koranic verse read and interpreted in an extremist manner becomes an expression of the essence of the religion, whereas the [true] essence of the religion is love, mercy towards one another, humility, and high moral standards.” In post #274 we have "Your wish to construct a view of the Koran under which violent jihad can be rejected, is excellent. There are people today who are seeking to achieve this. Daniel Pipes has identified a line of thought, originated by a Muslim, which enables Muslims to do just that." But in countless other post we get "the Koran calls on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims", and now "many are saying that Islam is peaceful, even though they know it is not; they are fooling you."
While we do not have a document from the Saudi journalist explaining how he interprets Islam, it may well be in accordance with Taha. If you will loook more closely at #274, you will see:
Taha built his interpretation on the conventional division of the Koran into two. The initial verses came down when Muhammad was a powerless prophet living in Mecca, and tend to be cosmological. Later verses came down when Muhammad was the ruler of Medina, and include many specific rulings. These commands eventually served as the basis for the Shari'a, or Islamic law.
Taha argued that specific Koranic rulings applied only to Medina, not to other times and places. He hoped modern-day Muslims would set these aside and live by the general principles delivered at Mecca. Were Taha's ideas accepted, most of the Shari'a would disappear, including outdated provisions concerning warfare, theft, and women. Muslims could then more readily modernize.
Taha found an approach that enabled him to discard, for present-day purposes, the violent verses of the Koran, which call on Muslims to kill and subjugate non-Muslims.
Are there violent Muslims? Yes....
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp
But make sure you read what Ashgar Bukhari, the Chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee has to say about it. He is on record as saying those Muslims should have been stopped by police. I also support David Winnick's suggestion that these protesters be prosecuted and deported.
Go Jamie. Now you're contributing something constructive. The approach you suggest is very hard-core. Freedom of speech issues become key here. We must seek an approach that can respect our traditions of free speech, and at the same time, prevent imams from inciting hatred and violence. I would suggest consideration of the following approach: that any imam who preaches violence and murder should be prosecuted and deported.
#320Vik Rubenfeld...I would support throwing out any immigrant that incites hatred and violence, regardless of race or religion. I believe there's more ways to reach a peaceful interpretation of Islam than just Taha's...but debating those points with me is kind of pointless since I'm not Muslim. Someone representative of leadership in a Muslim community would be an infinitely more constructive person to converse with than myself.
#321We cannot expect Islam to police itself, we need to reach out to and support the moderate elements. To let them know they can speak out and we will support them, not let them be killed as apostates. This is our country, do what we say or get out. This includes what Imams preach, and all aspects of what goes on in mosques. Do this or shutter them, and stop apologizing and stop being lied to by Islamics. Confront them with their history. Demand of Islam, they need it, we have no obligation to even let them come here. Do we want to become Spain and France, soon to be Islamic countries, the government of Spain, thanks to the train bombings and the brave Spaniard response, already is de facto Islamic. Our country, observe our wishes or get out.
It comes down to the people we elect and what we demand of them. Watch the following 7+ minute segment on Thomas Paine. Pay particular attention to the 300 billion dollars the Obama administration is giving to illegals, and in general the Democrats pandering to illegals. And Congress, corrupt and inept, and not just Democrats, but mostly so with the pandering and corruption. The problem is us, we show Islam weakness and this emboldens them. Obama talking about what the "American People and the Iranian People have in common???" Just what would that be? Nothing. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8kLaEuAoxg
#322Americans and Iranians have nothing in common? We're all human...that's one thing. From what I understand, Iranian citizens are quite fond of American culture. Anyways...you seem convinced we're on the wrong path, and I suppose there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. If the Democrats don't show results, Republicans will be back in 2010.
All things considered, I would have to consider this website hostile territory. That's ok though...to go where everyone agreed with me wouldn't be a challenge. That said, I'm often curious how many of you here leave your comfort zone and debate strangers on websites where your opinion is in the distinct minority. If you haven't, I recommend it. It can be frustrating spinning your wheels trying to get traction with the thought process of those with views counter to your own....but it certainly makes you think a little harder and lets you know how others see the world. Though I prefer not to look through Azbastard's or Joseph's eyes....very scary how they see the world.
Good night.
#323
#324Der Alleswisser...I don't believe twenty to thirty percent would be an accurate statistic of the percentage of muslims we would qualify as "demonically evil". How would one measure? Do you send out a survey asking Muslims, "how fanatical are you about your religion?". Of course, on the other side of that coin, I can't really prove you wrong either. Maybe it's half. My judgment is probably a reflection on my belief that all cultures have their fair share of the good, the bad, and the ugly. Unfortunately, as various moments in history has shown us, sometimes ugly wins. I might concede that "ugly" is winning in Islamic culture, but as I've said before, there's more factors at work than just religion. If we want to keep what few Muslim allies we have, we shouldn't trash the religion as being evil...we should be specific and focus our argument against groups like Al Qaeda that preach hate, violence, and intolerance. If there's one thing I can't tolerate...it's intolerance (any Southpark fans here?).
It doesn't take many fanatics to create bedlam. Remember the snipers driving around Washington, DC? Two guys, a car with a hole in the trunk, and a sniper rifle was all it took. I spent a couple of days up in that area during that time period, and I can assure you it was on my mind.
#325And of course you did notice that one of their names was Muhammod?
The percents are an aggregate. The very most optimistic is from Newt Gingrich, of 10%. See Newt's 2007 speech on the issue at http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/08/gingrich/index.html#cnnSTCVideo What he is saying is that our current form of government is not working, and I fear that he is correct. I mean, if it were my call, the missile and nuclear facilities would be long gone, and the liberals could cry all they want to, the Europeans could just go to H*** if they did not like it, Gone Baby Gone, no big committees to study it, just knock the snot out of them. Not much different for Iran. Pay attention to what he said about Israel's peace attempts for 30 years. It has actually been for their entire existance since the Islamic Plague first invaded their and others' lands.
Did you hear the press release about the Islamic who murdered an Israeli 13 year old with a pick axe yesterday, and the comment was "this came only x days after Netanyahu was sworn in." As if it was his fault, nothing said about the inherrent violence and non-compatibility, the brainwashing to make their children evil. There will be no peace here, it is as absurd as the search for the unicorn to seek peace between Israel and the Islamics. Doomed, survival of the fittest, and the demographics do not favor the Israelis or for that matter the entire planet. Islam, great at portraying itself as the victim, nevermind fourteen centuries of aggression. And if the rest of us are too stupid to see this then we deserve to perish. That is the way nature is, from small animals to humans, brutal, unforgiving.
After the tube bombings in London, a survey indicated that 26% supported the bombings and supported terrorism. Keep in mind this is what they admitted, and so the number could be much higher. In Serge Trifkovic's "sword of the prophet," he quoted an estimate of 35%. Regardless of whether it is 10% or 35%, that percent of 1.6 billion and rapidly climbing Islamics is a lot of evil, and now Iran and nuclear weapons, and the nuclear weapons the Russians do not know the whereabouts of. Be afraid.
#326But most damning for the Islamic world, Newt spoke of it, the silence of the islamic world when evil is committed in the name of Allah. Do not forget that the general reaction of the Islamic world to 9/11 was delight. And stupid British and French liberals, as well as our Dhimmicrats, blamed it on "American Arrogance." Here in America, Islamics could speak out about the beheadings and other evil in the name of Allah, but is the silence not deafening. But you did hear about the Muhammod Teddy Bear, and the reaction to the Pope's remarks, and the Qurans being flushed down toilets at GITMO, Abu Grahib (were those not terrorists, at least most of them??) Very selective outrage, is it not??? Does it have anything to do with right and wrong, or is it all about the Unbelievers vs the Believers?
Perhaps these are Satan's People, and this could be the final battle. Is America going to wake up, or just deal with it by jumping into the SUV and going to the mall, aplolgizing to the rest of the world like Obama is doing? Or are we going to show the backbone of our founders? What will we do with the American Moment? If it was my call, the Whabbists and the others would get the snot knocked out of them, no apologies, the liberals could cry their eyes out. CAIR and MAB and Farrahkan jailed. Champion right over wrong, something the Islamic world has never done, no, they see this evil all around them and silence. The Fatal Flaw of Islam.
#327The gone missiles mentioned above are those of North Korea, I see that I omitted that, do not understand why whe let these thing exist since we have the ability to take them out. Stop pandering to Pot Bellied Little Kim, just take them out. And if they do not like it, they can just deal with it.
#328The Persians think they have an ally in Hugo Chavez. Jesus has many beleivers in Latin America. The Iranians will have their feet burned. "But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the Lord".
#329Not all Muslims are silent....
http://revjimsutter.blogspot.com/2006/10/muslims-speak-out-against-terrorism.html
I don't know what kind of criminals the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were. I do know that the pictures that came out of that place are not reflective of the true values of America. We do not set our standards by the lowest common denominator....that is what the terrorists we are fighting do.
Der Alleswisser...you are no less selective in your outrage than anyone else. You examine every detail of aggressive expansion in Islam's 1,400 year history while giving the parallel violence found in Christianity's 2,000 year history a free ride. History is not objective...do you think the story of American independence is told the same way in our mother country Great Britain? There are at least two sides to every story, if not more. I have no doubt there have been Muslim atrocities committed without provocation...but Christian followers are guilty of the same crimes. When you start seeing Muslims as Satan's people you stop seeing them as human beings, and then you start condoning acts of violence that are characteristic of our enemies.
When I studies history in school, I didn't have the luxury of answering true and false questions. We had to respond with essays, usually detailing the social, political, and economic reasons behind why this or that happened. You seem content with labeling Islam as the enemy, and I think that's a mistake. But we've covered that before, haven't we. Over and over and over again.
Christianity has done wonderful things in the lives of billions of people through history. But monotheistic religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have their dark side too. For example...there's a story on the following website that looks at how the Incas were introduced to Christianity.
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/earth.htm
If you don't enjoy reading about History from opposing perspectives, then all you're really interested in is living in a fantasy world where good knights battle evil knights and Azbastard lives happily everafter.
#330No doubt a few at Abu Grahab wiere not bad folks just caught up in it, but I have no doubt that most were terrorists. Beheadders, irrational fanatic types, who had the tables been turned would have beheadded their prisoners. We somehow just ignore all that, the Eric Berg and Kenneth Bigely types, no threat to anyone, much better people than at least the mainstream at Abu Grahab. But we ignore that all of ours are beheadded and we are supposed to be goody goody and give them lawyers. Big double standard.
We talk about how we must behave better than them, and to some extent this is true, but do not let this carry over to weakness. All this sniveling give them Qurans and ethnic meals at GITMO when our guys are summarily beheadded just does not make sense. This business of the Democrats sending them lawyers, and us giving them the full rights of an American citizens, all the silly OJ Simpson lawyer shennagans about procedures and probable cause and all the other surrender monkey stuff only enriches lawyers, it is for the benefit of lawyers and to fleece American taxpayers and to protect the guilty. It is a canard about being "Nice" so as to enrich lawyers, it is the latest version of Clinton's tobacco payoff to crony Democrat lawyers.
You have heard Osama talk about how people will follow the Strong Horse, Well, all this Obama going all over Europe saying everything is America and Bush's fault, this is not the strong horse.
#331This business of Obama saying we are going to elimnate nuclear weapons, is he crazy, soes he really think the terrorists, Russia, North Korea, and all the other bad guys are going to say well the Americans are getting rid of theirs so let's get rid of ours??? The man is not realistic, he is a fool, he like the other Democrats does not realize the concept of evil. There is always evil, sometimes idealogy, sometimes greed, but the most pernicious evil is religious evil. Hitler and his types will always be there and the only way to deal wiith this is thru strength. Not weakness, this is trampled by evil, not respected. Evil panders to weakness and naivety and Obama is at great risk here.
Telling Europe they lead the world, they most certainly do not, they would not even be free if not for America. They who have lived under the American nuclear umbrella and gotten soft for the last 60 years. They who are useless as allies. And Obama tells them it is all our fault and America is arrogant? And it was Bush's fault? Pandering to Iran, ignoring Israel? well he will just have to deal with the Israelis igonring him, no influence over them in the future, they know a fool when they see one.
If we had fourteen centuries of the Methodists saying they flew an airplane into a building because of their Allah, the Baptists training their children to be suicide bombers who blow up resaurants because of their Allah, if we had the mormons coming out of Utah and taking over a region that did not used to be Mormon the size of Arabia, half of Africa, all the Mideast, now into the Balkans, what was Spain, and soon (five years, ten years??) most if not all of Europe, then maybe we could say it was just another religious thing. But it is only Islam that does this.
#332In islamic countries, conversion from Islam is punishable by death, it is "Apostasy." the American missionaries in Turkey and Smyrna in the years leading up to the Armenian genocide found this out, In Saudi Arabia there can be no church but Islamic, and if this was just in Saudi Arabia, you might dismiss it, but it is all of Islam. When you go to the Bible Belt of the Southeastern US, do you not see all sorts of churches? Do you see people stoned to death for having a relationship outside of marriage? This was all ok before when they were all just a bunch of crazy sorts who lived in the desert and if they had Honor Killings and female mutilation that was just an Islamic on Islamic thing. But you do realize that 9/11 changed all that, and that Muslims thought that 9/11 was such a wonderful thing? Now we can pretend that there was Isalmic outrage over 9/11 and all the beheaddings and all the suicide bombings but no one believes this, it is all just Islam Apologistics, al Taqiya, the Greatest Lie Ever Told: "Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance." Sure, Black is White. This is evil, it is not permissible, it is not coexistant, it needs to be forcibly changed or destroyed. Do not pander to it, its religion fosters that and will use it against you.
There is a good (or at least quiescent, temporizing, pliant, malleable, waiting to see who wins out) seventy or so percent of Muslims, some of who just want to go about their lives and are not into the fanatism of islam at all. But then there are the fanatically evil ones, brainwashed since birth, no critical thinking skills at all, a culture of death, can produce nothing, only looting of unbelievers sustains them. They have been taught that it matters not that they accomplish absolutely nothing while on this earth in bodily form, is only that they be tottally subservient to Allah and his evil calling that matters. And so the dark eyed houris and streams of honey await the suicide bomber. This is tottaly stupid, a watermelon in a field on a hot summer afternoon has more critical thinking skills that these evil humanoids.
So within Isalm you have the Good vs. Evil battle going on, and only one side wins. Do we just watch, or do we become proactive? They are not all in the desert anymore, they are among us.
"Islamics realize their most powerful secret weapon is the Liberal Mindset, while at the same time despising it." ~~~~~Serge Trifkovic, Defeating Jihad
#333Der Alleswisser...I call BS. Show me the quote where Obama told Europeans that America is arrogant and everything is Bush's fault. Obama increases troop levels in Afghanistan and conservatives complain...God forbid we actually focus our attention on the nation from which 9/11 originated.
Political, social, economic...you totally ignore 2 of the 3 issues that must be addressed when analyzing history. Without the political and economic stability the West now enjoys, Christianity might easily be twisted to serve evil purposes just as Islam is now. America didn't start out with women's rights or civil rights...these didn't come until later and several churches fought tooth and nail against both.
The idea of Apostasy is barbaric. Just like the following....
1 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "This is what the LORD has commanded to be done. 2 On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death.So anyway...if terrorist hit us with a nuclear bomb, who will we bomb back? They don't have a freakin' country! Nukes worked as a deterrant against the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union wanted to survive. Terrorist have proven several times over that survival is not their main objective. Even if the idea of a nuclear free world is unrealistic, reduction of the number of missiles isn't going to kill anyone.
We can be strong without lowering ourselves to the level of the enemy. What intelligence could possible be gained from taking the kind of abuse we saw in the pictures that came out of Abu Ghraib? That wasn't interrogation...it was sport. It served no purpose but to make us look like hypocrites.
Our historical and cultural ties to Europe are far too strong to give up on just because they don't say and do everything we want them to. I feel far more confident about the direction our relationship with our friends across the pond is taking than I did a year ago, though your pessimism is duly noted.
It might be very interesting to read all of this a year from now and evaluate how things have progressed.
#334Now come on, it is common knowledget that Obama has been apologizing to the whole world for what this nation has accomlished, to people who would have been under totalitarian rule for the last 60 years if it were not for America. Not to mention the US army in Germany, and the American nuclear umbrella. He has blamed everything on Bush, he has sent movies to Iran, he has said that America is not a christian nation, he has bowed to the King of Saudia Arabia (but the White House claims not so, "What you saw was not really what you saw.")
America has nothing to apoligize for except Obama and the Democrats who let terrorists go from GITMO, their weakness in the face of evil being the greatest threat to world peace we face. His fiat money creation for the bailouts are nothing more than stealing. It is simply counterfeiting, printing money for the government's use for which nothing is given in return. A private citizen would be arrested for this.
All this goody goody apologizing, a Quixotic approach which has little chance for success. We are not at war with Islam??? Well that may be so but it is at war with us. Turn our backs on the Israelis? Get tough with Netanyahu? I do not think he is a pushover. This approach may make the Middle East absolutely explode. He knows not of Turkey's history, or for that matter, the non-compatible aspect of Islam. He does not understand al Taqiya, the Dar al Sulh, the aspect of Islam negotiating only to temporize until it can prevail. This showering of love on Iran and the Isalmic world, it sounds so sweet, but these Democrats do not understand the unswerving absolute nature of Islam, they just do not, a triumph of hope over experience.
#335This business of "Who do you attack if America is hit with a nuclear bomb, they don't have a freaking country????" This is the whole point of terrorism, "Plausible denialbility." It is stupid to play that game, ever heard of the Monroe Doctrine? You announce RIGHT NOW that if we are hit, good bye Iran, Saudi Arabia, Warizustan, and MEAN IT. You do not just sit back and cry about it, you don't know so you do nothing will just empower evil. You destroy evil, that is all it understands, it will trample weakness. But of course that is exactly what Democrats will do and so we are in grave danger. It worked with the Soviet Union, and it will work now. Otherwise evil will prevail and darkness will fall, the barbarians that sacked Rome again.
And women did not have rights before here, yes that is the whole point. There is historical progression in Christianity and not so in Islam. Do we execute people for working on the Sabbath? How much progress in fourteen centuries have you seen in Islam? They cannot even make a radio, much less a car.
Europe did commit 5000 troops to Afghanistan, but note that they are limited in scope, not the hunter killer types that are needed, more logistical sorts. Time will tell. The Europeans seem tired and spent, effete. But here is an article that is germane from Dr. Walter E. Williams published in 2006, found on page 191 of Liberty vs. the Tyranny of Socialism," read carefully and understand what he is saying about this, and then reconsider what you said:
"WILL THE WEST DEFEND ITSELF?
"Does the United States have the power to eliminate terrorists and the states that support them? In terms of capacity, as opposed to will, the answer is a clear yes.
#336"Currently the US has an arsenal of 18 Ohio class submarines. Just one submarine is loaded with 24 Trident nuclear missiles. Each Trident missile has eight nuclear warheads capable of being independently targeted. That means the US alone has the capacity to wipe out Iran, Syria, or any other state that supports terrorist groups or engages in terrorism -- without risking the life of a single soldier.
"Terrorist supporters know we have this capacity, but because of worldwide public opinion, whch often apppears to be on their side, coupled with our weak will, we'll never use it. Today's Americans are vastly different from those of my generation who fought the life and death struggle of WWII. Any attempt to annihilate our Middle East enemies would create all sorts of hand wringing about the innocent lives lost , so - called collateral damage.
"Such an argument would have fallen on deaf ears diring WWII when we firebombed cities in Germany and Japan. The loss of lives thru saturation bombing far exceeded those lost through the dropping of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...........
"We might also note that the occupation of Germany and Japan didn't pose the occupation problems we face in Iraq. The reason is we completely demoralized our enemies, leaving them with neither the will nor the means to resist.........
#337"What Europeans say about what should be done about terrorists states should fall on deaf ears. Their history of weakness and cowardice during the 1930s goes a long way towards accounting for the 60 million lives lost during WWII. During the mid - 30s, when Hitler started violating the arms limitations of Versailles, France and Britian alone could have defeated him, but they pursued the appeasement route.
"Anyone who thinks the current Western appeasement efforts will get Iran to end its nuclear weapons program is dumber than dumb. Appeasement will strenghten Iran's hand, and it looks as if the West, including the United States, is willing to be complicit in the strenghtening."
So there you have it, and Dr. Williams comments were before Barack the Appeaser and Apologizer. Barack apparently believes that the Meek will inherit the Earth, but he does not understand Islam, and now he wants to disarm. Is the man stupid, is he Don Quixote, .... does this goody goody apologizing stuff have any redeeming qualities at all in the face of Islam? Osama said that if there were a strong horse and a weak horse that people would follow the strong horse. Barack and the Democrats are not at all a strong horse, Barack is going to get rolled.
#338Der Alleswisser...it's common knowledge that sometimes our nation has acted in an arrogant manner. Every nation in history that rose to be the most powerful has been guilty of this at one time or another. Being able to recognize mistakes is not weakness. At work, I grow from mistakes, I don't ignore them or claim they didn't happen. That's what leadership is about.
You can put whatever negative spin you want to on Obama, but right now the majority of people think he's doing a good job. I can believe that Obama said America is not a Christian nation. That would imply we are a theocracy, and we are not.
Yes, I've heard of the Monroe Doctrine. You seem ready for a 21st century version of Manifest Destiny, where the whole world is under our control. You write, "Any attempt to annihilate our Middle East enemies would create all sorts of hand wringing about the innocent lives lost , so - called collateral damage". Such coldness is not strength...it's ignorance. Certainly wanting to focus our efforts against Al Qaeda doesn't make Obama "goody goody".
Why on earth should we attack Saudi Arabia? Yes, the 9/11 terrorist were mostly Saudis...does that mean we wage war on the millions of other people who have nothing do to with them? If our policy is to blow up the nations that terrorist come from, we might as well start with ourselves (for example, OKC 1995).
Historical progression...women's rights and civil rights didn't gain traction in predominantly Christian nations until the twentieth century...that's after 2,000 years of history. By that schedule, Islam has another 600 years to go. Considering that three Islamic nations have already had women presidents, and the USA has had none, I don't think it will take them that long to come around. That is, unless you decide to bomb them all back to the Stone Age.
We did not destroy the Soviet Union...we held them to a stalemate and time did the work for us. Since the Democrats and Republicans exchanged control at various times during the Cold War, I think we can say America prevailed, and not a particular internal political ideology.
If Obama allows the Iranians to take control of Sudetanland, I'll start worrying about "appeasement". Otherwise, if you don't talk to your enemies, who will you talk to? (I could be mistaken, but I think an Israeli general or politician may have said that at one time in regard to the Palestinians).
You didn't respond to the verse from Exodus that I referred to...no comment? if you didn't like it, I have several others I'd love to share with you.
#339Der Alleswisser....I feel you're working from a revenge mentality. That's the kind of thought process that creates moments in history like the Treaty of Versailles. When the Allies stuck all the blame for WWI on Germany, all it did was create an environment ripe for someone like Hitler to thrive in. The way WWI was ended created WWII.
Yes...we were attacked by Muslim terrorists. Yes, the Koran can be easily interpreted in a violent way. But so can the Bible. There are plenty of stories of blood and violence there (such as the verse I previously shared about putting to death someone who works on the Sabbath). And no, Muslim nations didn't invent the light bulb, or the automobile, or the airplane, and they didn't put a man on a moon...but Brazil, Greece, Finland, and countless other Christian nations didn't either. The pieces of the puzzle came together at the right place at the right time here in America for individuals with the skill and know how to create "progress". Galileo was threatened with excommunication for saying the sun was the center of the solar system...that's the kind of contribution religion has made to science. And I'm not knocking God or religion...I'm just saying if you're going to hold Islam to certain standards, you need to do the same to every other religion out there.
When you speak of war against many for the actions of a few, it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm too much of a "goody goody" person...I think about the effects on the lives of individual people when bullets and missiles start flying around. But you have to realize, you can't just kill all your enemies and let God sort the good from the bad. Collateral damage creates future terrorists, that's why we need to keep our efforts focused against the people responsible, and not entire nations or the religion of Islam. It's not like I'm a pacifist. I think it's right for us to fighting against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Right now the biggest threat in my view is the growing influence Al Qaeda is having in Pakistan...a nuclear nation. The government there is walking a tight rope, and we need them on our side. Calling for the downfall of Islam or war against Saudi Arabia isn't furthering our cause.
That's why I think your cold heartedness is ignorant. You just want revenge, and then you think when everyone is afraid of us the threat will be gone. Make everyone afraid of us, and the threat has only begun. Again, I'm not a pacifist. Obama isn't a pacifist. We just need to use our military might the right way....not with reckless abandon.
One of the greatest "fighters" ever was Bruce Lee. I think I'd rather have our military fight like Bruce Lee than 7' 400 lb. professional wrestler. Fighting with veracity and skill, not just bulk and talk.
#340The comment about Christianity having a historical progression and Islam not having one was in reference to the verse in Exodus about not working on the Sabbath. We would never punish someone for working on the sabbath today, much less give them death as the Bible said.
Islam having three female presidents? I know about Benezir Bhutto, but the terrorists murdered her. I am not sure about the other two?? And I am not sure it can be assumed that Islam will follow a similar progression to Christianity, it is an abherrent entity, and not sure there is anything there that would suggest "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you" is where they are headed. What is there for Islamics is that to practice anything but Islam is punishable by death. Not much hope there.
I do not condone killing masses indiscriminantly, but on the other hand I do not condone the silence of the Muslim world in the presence of this evil. They know it is there, it is among them, and collectively the Muslim world tacitly approves of the evil aspects of Islam. Like in Saudi Arabia, where Whabbilism, the most evil of all Islamic sects, thrives. I feel it is a lot of lip service that that regime does, it does not mitigate this evil, it exports it by funding mosques abroad, and it is for that reason that I think it best to let them know that if there is a nuclear attack then there will be consequences. Likewise and foremost for Iran. It does not make sense to allow them to pursue nuclear weapons and then if (some say when, and this from high levels of the CIA and NSA) we are attacked with a nuclear weapon, it needs to be known beforehand that the consequences will be disasterous for those who foster the evil elements of Islam. This would of necessity include "collateral damage," but if done firmly, it can prevent it as it did before with the Soviet Union. I cannot buy this "well, we can't do anything because we don't know for sure who did it." That is the whole point of terrorism. If it happens, then the response must be overwhelming and Islam needs to be sternly warned beforehand with no equivocation.
#341The reason Islam is so dangerous now is because it has been emboldened by weak people like Jimmy Carter who gave us the Islamic Republic of Iran, and Bill Clinton, who treated the first WTC attack as a criminal act rather than the act of war that it was. Remember that strong horse? They see us as pushovers because of Carter and Clinton, and the world is now a much dangerous place because Obama seems a appeaser and a pushover. Obama is following in Carter and Clinton's footsteps here. We have nothing to apologise to Islam for, they need to apologize to the rest of the world. He is portraying weakness to our enemies and this is very dangerous.
Bill Clinton gave us 9/11, and Obama's Democrats are of a September 10th mindset. But the next one could very well be nuclear, and the stakes are just too high. I know I mentioned it before, but you really need to read Willful Blindness, a Memoir of the Jihad, by the lead prosecutor of the Blind Sheik and the other terrorists of the 1993 WTC attack. Then you will understand what Clinton did and that he and his lawyer approach brought us 9/11. And Obama now is copying him. He tells Islam of the "Contributions of Islam to our country????" What is he talking about, is he crazy, they have contributed nothing at all, nothing good. Only that some have come here and left the evil behind and become civilized, but as far as molding or contributing anything??? It is a huge lie to say that Islam has done anything useful for us or anyone else. Just invasions and slaughter in the name of Allah.
The fundamental problem with the Democrats is that they do not understand evil, do not understand that we are in a death grapple with Islam, and do not understand what is to come between Israel and Islam, and then Europe and Islam. Osama thinks just being nice is enough, he does not understand how intransigent Islam is. The only thing I approve of is maybe the approach in Afghanistan, but will he capitulate, be sweet-talked?
#342It is not about being nice, this is a struggle between two non-compatible entities. And thinking Islam will come out of the darkness I would like to think is realistic, but the more you read about this religion the more aware you become that it is very unlikely.
Not really revenge, although I do think Iran is due for what they did in 1979 and I think they are owed for what they have done in Iraq (IEDs, ...). I think we have to confront Islam with what it is and demand accountability. Yes, foster the good Muslims, encourage them to speak out, but will they?Not apologizing to it, like Obama is doing. And his administration is utterly ridiculous for lying about the bowing thing. why lie about something like this, just admit it and move on, lying about obvious stuff just makes them look stupid to Americans and the rest of the world.
#343Der Alleswisser...It's a dangerous world. Maybe you're right about everything. But I don't think so...and I've explained already as best I can why I feel that way. Let's check what we've written a year from now, and we'll see how it compares to where we stand then. For now, the elections are over, and the nation is on a new course, regardless of how anyone here feels about it. If you're frustrated with that direction, I can certainly empathize. I felt that same frustration until Jan. 2009.
Happy Easter.
#344Very good. I would rather that you be right. Obama has hit a home run with the pirate thing, and maybe this can provide proper steerage for him. Did GW Bush cause all the problems as a lot of Democrats think? That would be wonderful if it were only so, and if just talking with them was the answer. But yes, now the thing seems to just wait and see, really out of yours and my hands. And that question as to what happens if America is attacked with a nuclear weapon and what is the next step, I don't really want any president to be faced with that. Let us just see what the next year brings, and Happy Easter to you as well.
#345Jamie..I'm still waiting for an answer
#346Azbastard....What, do you miss me? I wrapped up my arguments here over a month ago, as you'll find the record written above indicates. What was the question? Actually, to be honest, I don't even care. Unless you've found the recipe for whirled peas or the cure for the common cold, I would prefer to wish you luck in your endeavor to inspire as much hate for Mohammed and love for Jesus as you can, and hopefully you'll share the same best wishes for me as I careen down the highway to Hell.
#347in the end it will always be about love. nothing more, nothing less. all religions will respect each other because of such powerful word.
#348Assimilated or not, Islam or Christianity or Shinto or Buddhism or Tribal Religions or Militant Atheism any other religion you care to name: I am in no doubt whatsoever that the world would be a better place without religion. Religions are not inherently bigoted but most of them fit the bigot's frame of mind very nicely indeed and bigotry is at the root of all the "isms" (sexism ageism gayism fundamentalist neuroticism etc.) As irony would have it, I happen to believe in God but apart from that, I profess a profound areligious theism (hey another -ism there!). We pay for our insane spirituality with blood. Yes Christianity is fundamentally peaceful yet think about the conquistadores, the early irish troubles, the crusades. I would welcome any move to rid society of the cancer that is religion. It is easy to find spirituality in music, in art in science in philosophy in the warmth of a family. We don't need this insanity.
#349.... just to add, many peaceful Muslims may believe that Islam can be followed peacefully and respecting non Muslim neighbours and for a minority of Muslims, I am sure that they are correct but the simple fact is that another significant and large minority of Muslims follow their religion fundamentalistically, violently and with hate. Iraq, Iran, Libya, Afghanistan: the evidence is utterly incontrovertible. That fact alone surely makes Islam the most pernicious religion in existence. I think that every civilised country in the European Tradition (Europe, North America, South America, Russia, Australia and New Zealand) should abolish Islam in any form on their soil, should make it illegal to practice it and should give all Muslim citizens a choice to either renounce Islam or to leave their contry for good and take their poison with them.
#350
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
#351Yes, Islam as such should be abolished. When we speak of "Fundamental Islamists," we really mean "Fundamentally Evil Islam." The religion is fundamentally evil, it enslaves millions, and most Muslims are decent people who do not subscribe to this evil. It is as if we opened up all the prisons and put the criminals in control, the most evil people dominate Muslim countries, and all these nations need to know is the Quran, no science, nothing but religion. Therefore the backwardness, despair.
Oh, it would be fine to also renounce such quotes in the Bible about smashing babies' heads and killing anyone who works on the Sabbath, but it is painfully obvious, even though Liberals may not admit it, that it has been many lifetimes since state - sponsored murder was committed in the name of Christianity.
The Prime Minister of Australia had it right when he told them "If you want Sharia law, then go to a country that has it." But Europe, and hopefully this Obama lunacy will end and America will not follow them in their "When in Rome tell the Romans what to do, we Islamics are so offended by cartoons, Muhammod Teddy Bears, whatever" Socialist Liberal mindset. Well just go back where you came from, and do you want some cheese with that whine? Get your evil religion out of my country, take the liberals with you. Liberalism is a mental illness, it is suicide, it is decay cloaked with happy spin wording by the smooth but substantless and radical Obama and his Democrat parasites. Victims, entitled, America-haters, trickle up poverty types. "Who is John Galt?"
Dr. Thomas Sowell wrote of this recently in his article titled "Suicide of the West," which you can see here: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NmMxMDZmZjdhNGQxOGRmYTFjOWRjMzhiYTAzMzVmZmE=#more
#352DUDE, WHERE AM I. . . . .
The mote that is in the eye of your brother you see; but the beam that is in your own eye, you see not!
-Jesus Christ