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Victor Davis Hanson addresses the Wednesday Morning Club.
Last Wednesday Victor Davis Hanson spoke at the Wednesday Morning Club at the Four Seasons Hotel in Los Angeles. He discussed his new book, A War Like No Other : How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War. I will summarize some of his remarks.
In 431 B.C., Sparta declared war on Athens. This should have been considered an unwageable war, because Sparta was a land power and Athens was a sea power -- there was no way for them to fight. The war was chronicled at the time by Thucydides, who believed that the stated reasons nations go to war are often not the true ones. Nations often go to war due to feelings of jealousy. In this case, Athens was the jewel of the time. People went to Athens for everything; no one went to Sparta.
Parallel to our time: Islamofascist talk about Iraq and Israel is irrelevant to their true reasons for killing Westerners.
Athens responded by choosing to withdraw all of its people within its walled city, and waiting for the Spartans to go away. But this didn't happen. The Spartans found that they could deny Athens the use of its own farmlands without repercussions. When Athens' allies saw this, they ceased to provide Athens with the supplies it needed.
Parallel to our time: when Al Qaeda saw that there were few or no repercussions to its attacks on the U.S. via the USS Cole, the first World Trade Center bombing, the killing of U.S. marines, etc., it saw the way clear to 9-11.
Not only that, but, as Hanson observes, in war the unexpected always happens. The city of Athens was built to hold 100,000 people; now it was holding 300,000. A sickness broke out, killing 80,000 people. At this point it became very difficult for Athens to fight off the Spartans.
After additional fighting with losses on both sides, Athens and Sparta declared the Peace of Nicias. The thinking was that both sides would retire to their pre-war positions, and everything would go back to the way it had been before the war.
But this lasted only 6 years. It was only a "bellum interruptum" -- a brief interruption to the war. As Hanson says in this radio interview on the same subject:
The great lesson is the war ended when one side lost, not when one side negotiated. Athens lost its fleet, it lost its empire, it lost its long walls, it lost its democracy. These are pretty bitter lessons but they should remind us that as Thucydides said, that's the tragic nature of mankind, and it's predictable, as long as human nature remains fixed.
Parallel to our time: the Islamofascists will continue attacking us until one side loses decisively.
#1
#2I think I have read all of Victor Davis Hanson's books - except the most recent. And I wish that congress and all Americans would read them as well. History shows the way civilizations and societies win and survive or lose and fail. It appears that war is usually involved in the struggle of different societies regardless of what we wish. It would have been nice if the UN had fulfilled the dream of a peaceful, but forceful negotiator. It has not.
My point is: read clear understandable histories and learn from them and you can see the present day events through different eyes. Victor Davis Hanson offers this insight to anyone who will read (and enjoy) his books.
#3Thanks for this excellent post, RC, and welcome to the site.
#4Where do I sign up for WMC? The link is all screwy...
#5The war on islamofascism must be fought militarily and won decisively. BUT THE TRUE VICTORY is won not only by the military, but in the ideological arena. We could win militarily, but the next generation coming up will again have to face this islamic threat until it is crushed ideologically. History proves this over and over.
My husband and I work tirelesly on the ideological war against islam.....and it's workers are tireless in their jihad against all other forms of thought.
I noticed recently that ALL of the online koran websites have deleted all refernces to things westerners would want to research..try typing into the online koran sites the word JIHAD, for example. It is one of the most common words in the koran, but the "search" yields not one sura or line about the subject. Three or four years ago, one could easily look into the koran on any subject, and the suras would appear. Try typing in the word KILL, or INFIDEL. THe search always comes back, "No results found."
The Universities who host such websites most likley have no idea that only one slim (and palletable) version of the koran is being given on their sites. Those who wish to argue against islam, and those who wish to debate its claims, will need to resort to a hand-held koran.....(no need for gloves, unless you are at Guantanamo Bay.)
The window of time we presently enjoy for apologetics is closing fast. Those who wish to educate themselves better do so now, before even the semi-legitimate copies of the koran disappear from the bookshelves, and we have the brief and fully-watered-down versions.
My husband is a convert from islam to Christ, reads Arabic fluently, and he points out that even the best of the korans in English leave huge areas untranslated, visible on page after page.....whole blank areas appear instead of actual translations of the Arabic.
Every single mosque has what they call the "sword ceremony" EVERY SINGLE FRIDAY OF EVERY SINGLE YEAR where a sword is brought out and flashed around to whip the worshippers into a frenzy. All the muslims present know (and can never forget) that they are called to violent jihad.....
Your average, so-called moderate muslim knows that he/she, too must fight jihad one day or be killed, and do you really think he or she will throw their lot in with the pig and ape infidels? NO. They will fight the jihad, or be killed. Rwanda was a visual warning to all of us how such frenzies get out of hand......only an islamic one will be much bloodier.
IT IS PAST TIME TO WAKE UP NOW, and time to get those debates going NOW. There will come a day when no man can work any longer, and from my vantage point, it is just around the corner, from each and every one of us.
#6Quantum, try contacting the Freedom Center using the contact info at the bottom of this page.
#7Julie, thanks for this informative post. Can you provide links to some of the more prominent koran websites that have doctored their search engines?
I'm also very interested in your report about large passages of the koran going untranslated in leading English translations. Can you provide a few examples of suras and verses (is that the terminology) that are untranslated?
#8Part I
Zumer,
Peace be unto you,
Thank you for your thoughtful correspondence.
Retaliation is the whole point!
It is what separates us and makes it improbable to have any peace between us.
Please accept that my answer is from my Christian and American perspective:
There are many readers of this Blog who are Jewish, Agnostic, or of other faiths and would strongly dispute the following, but I am not commissioned to punish them for their thoughts, deeds, insults, or jokes concerning Jesus and/or Christianity.
Firstly, and foremost, Jesus is the Son of God. He is part of the Holy Trinity. (Although I’m not fond of Wikipedia as a reference, this is a good explanation of a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp.)
A Christian is someone who follows the words of Jesus and believes Him to be the Messiah. We all strive to be saints.
Here are the major passages that define Christian conduct in the face of insults, lawsuits, and other adversity. Since you were kind enough to furnish quotes from the Quran, I have done the same form the New Testament:
The Holy Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to St. Matthew and St.. Luke. Glory to thee, O Lord:
Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Luke 6:28-31
"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,"
"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."
The Gospel of the Lord. Praise to be to thee, O Christ.
For a concise explanation of these may I refer you to: Christian Non-Violence by Walter Winks.
Therefore, in the face of any insults, we’re really supposed to walk away rather than retaliate.
Insults are normally the result of envy and ignorance; it is unseemly to even acknowlege them. We put the burden on Jesus and pray for our transgressors. that is the correct christian reponse.
Were those cartoons depicting Jesus, Christians would have complained, and cease to buy that paper. Most of us would have totally ignored it and the matter would have been forgotten.
G-d will take care of transgressors and transgressions as He sees fit.
Revenge and retaliation are Old Testament concepts which were nullified by Jesus.
Until we can dispense with retaliation and emnity against non-Muslims, it is unlikely that there will be any peace or progress.
I don't own a car, so I'm not well acquainted with most radio talk show hosts.
Today, after I picked up a rental, I noticed that the radio was not tuned into the detailer's usual hip-hop station, but WMAL (in the Washington, DC area). While I kept it on primarily for the traffic reports, I became very interested in John Batchelor ( 15 August 2006 EDT).
During one of his excellent segments, he explained that the War on Terrorism is truly one war with many theatres and fronts. He was succinct and lucid.
I immediately envisioned WWII with its several fronts divided into two theatres of operation, During WWII, the US also had home-grown saboteurs and sleeper cells. However, this time the enemy is far more insidious. And of course, they have struck several times on US soil and citizens.
While this may not be news to the readers and contributors of The Big Picture, it was such a simple explanation; I wished that our administration and legislators would follow his example and present this concise apologia for our involvement.
Unfortunately, I shall be away on business for the next week and was hoping that someone could follow this up and include the audio or transcript of this radio segment.